Surrender - discussion of the album and it's singles

[midnightman]

Perhaps if “Remember Me”, “Surrender” and subsequent album had sold better in the USA that might have been the case.
I think her career lost momentum with the release of the “Live” album and LTISH, especially after all that had been achieved with LSTB and Touch Me In The Morning”.
Even her film career had been put on ice.

1973 was a very bizarre year for Diana in general. She had a lot of momentum leading into the year: the great reviews of LSTB from the year previous, plus the soundtrack hitting number one in 73 [[her only album to do so on the pop chart), then Touch Me in the Morning finally getting Diana out of that "one hit wonder" stage that she was in after Ain't No Mountain High Enough. But then, came the Diana & Marvin album which only was a modest hit, and Last Time I Saw Him, which put her back where she was before 1972. It was just too much all at once. Motown did what we call an oversaturation of her and that hurt sales and Motown's reputation. Like I said, Motown didn't know what to do with her.

[midnightman]

We need to always be a little cautious. ROAT was #20 Billboard #10 Cashbox, 7 Soul and was a lukewarm hit or did not do well; Floy Joy was 16 Billboard, 16 Cashbox, 5 Soul and was one of many hits the 70’s Supremes had in 70 and 71. And Cashbox was more influenced by sales.

Just always depends on who we are talking about and what we are comparing to what.

Yeah but who's talking about Cash Box these days? Billboard was the one that named Diana its "female entertainer of the century". When it comes to the charts, Motown focused on Billboard heavier than Cash Box and if you don't do good on Billboard, that's a problem. And speaking of sales, is that why most of Diana's solo output sold just over 200,000 or so with the exceptions of the debut, LSTB, TMITM, DR76 and D?

[sup_fan]

1973 was a very bizarre year for Diana in general. She had a lot of momentum leading into the year: the great reviews of LSTB from the year previous, plus the soundtrack hitting number one in 73 [[her only album to do so on the pop chart), then Touch Me in the Morning finally getting Diana out of that "one hit wonder" stage that she was in after Ain't No Mountain High Enough. But then, came the Diana & Marvin album which only was a modest hit, and Last Time I Saw Him, which put her back where she was before 1972. It was just too much all at once. Motown did what we call an oversaturation of her and that hurt sales and Motown's reputation. Like I said, Motown didn't know what to do with her.

i really like the song LTISH but i think they could have held it a while. a second single should have been pulled from the TMITM package. All Of My Life would have been a wonderful follow up. or Leave A Little Room. We Need You is an amazing song and performance but it's a bit sad in content and so not sure it would be the best one for a single.

after two singles from the TMITM set, i think it would be time to move on. if they wanted to do the duets, fine. it's a good set but not as magical as it could have been. but both artists were super hot. I do think the To The Baby set could have been released. sonically, it would have been a perfect fit with the TMITM album. yeah you might have had to jigger a few songs off of the released version of TMITM and save them for Baby. but i think the performances are wonderful and the concept was very strong. i don't think it would have been quite as successful as TMITM but i think it would have been well received. and as an artist, it would have built on Diana's perception developed with the movie and TMITM.


i think the problem with the album LTISH was that the same care that had been given to LSTB and TMITM wasn't applied to LTISH. it's too haphazard and so it just doesn't hold up

[RanRan79]

"Last Time I Saw Him" should have just been a single only. I don't think it would have ever sounded quite right on any package of songs, unless they all had a "Last Time", "Old Funky Rolls" vibe, and I don't know how receptive the public would have been to that change in style. The best "Last Time" could hope for would have been an album like LTISH where the entire album sounds like a bunch of different stuff thrown together.

[sup_fan]

"Last Time I Saw Him" should have just been a single only. I don't think it would have ever sounded quite right on any package of songs, unless they all had a "Last Time", "Old Funky Rolls" vibe, and I don't know how receptive the public would have been to that change in style. The best "Last Time" could hope for would have been an album like LTISH where the entire album sounds like a bunch of different stuff thrown together.

i think you can pull together a decent album even using the materials she recorded, just assembled differently and perhaps a year later than the actual album was released.

obviously there's quite the stylistic change from TMITM to the LTISH but i think a more fun and lighthearted album would be appropriate after [[in my timeline) three more serious and weighty projects like LSTB, TMITM and To The Baby.

i'd put the Bob Gaudio tracks in the vault and perhaps use a couple of them on a revised DR 76. while i like the released album, i get it that Kiss me now, smile and a bit out of place with the hotter disco tracks. the rock sound though Gaudio created might fit ok

so my alt LTISH album would include:

Last Time I Saw Him [[longer, unedited version)
Get it all together
No one gonna be a fool forever
Together
You

Sorry doesn't always make it right
Why play games
I'll be here when you get home
Love me
Where did we go wrong
behind closed doors

[midnightman]

What I think the problem with LTISH was that it was a sudden change in sound. You go from the adult contemporary-ish soul styling from TMITM to this Birdland style performance. It was as if as I said they were trying so many different styles for Diana rather than, I guess, trying the Supremes method?

All of My Life could've worked for TMITM. LTISH should've spaced out but I don't know, I just don't think the album really worked. I mean it definitely fit the weird musical landscape of 1974 but it's still a peculiar song for Diana to record. My guess is they wanted to get Diana something like Midnight Train to Georgia [[which had a similar lyrical theme to LTISH) but one where an immediate crossover was assured.

[RanRan79]

i think you can pull together a decent album even using the materials she recorded, just assembled differently and perhaps a year later than the actual album was released.

obviously there's quite the stylistic change from TMITM to the LTISH but i think a more fun and lighthearted album would be appropriate after [[in my timeline) three more serious and weighty projects like LSTB, TMITM and To The Baby.

i'd put the Bob Gaudio tracks in the vault and perhaps use a couple of them on a revised DR 76. while i like the released album, i get it that Kiss me now, smile and a bit out of place with the hotter disco tracks. the rock sound though Gaudio created might fit ok

so my alt LTISH album would include:

Last Time I Saw Him [[longer, unedited version)
Get it all together
No one gonna be a fool forever
Together
You

Sorry doesn't always make it right
Why play games
I'll be here when you get home
Love me
Where did we go wrong
behind closed doors

Not a bad lineup at all, but IMO it still presents the same problem: it's a hodge podge of sounds, and taken together, I don't think anyone would rush out to grab it.

"Last Time" is a damn good song, so I vote for it's release. The Gaudio tracks have a more "take notice" sound than most of the other tracks on the album. I really do think it was a mistake not allowing him to helm the entire project, especially since supposedly Diana said she dug him but that Gordy and co were worried about handing over the whole thing to him, as if they could or would do any better. Dummies.

Diana had wowed the crowd with LSTB and then the very mellow TMITM, but how much more could that lane be milked? It was time to switch it up and I think to stay competitive it should have been with something that hit a lot harder than "No One's Gonna Be A Fool Forever" and "Love Me".

If I had my way I would have kept "I Heard a Love Song", "Stone Liberty", and "Sleepin". Probably add in "Why Play Games". In that age, the follow up to TMITM should have said something. That's what the public was digging in a lot of albums. I think a theme about life, like with "Stone" and "Sleepin", and the assertiveness of love and breaking up, like with "Games" and "Heard", would have put Diana on a new level. Maybe Stevie could have given her one of his compositions. How about Willie Hutch? He did the Foxy Brown soundtrack the following year. What if he had given Diana "Have You Ever Asked Yourself Why [[All About the Money Game)"?

One of Motown's mistakes was that, after the riskiness of LSTB and TMITM, it then went back to safe. The problem was the public didn't want "safe" Diana.

[midnightman]

^ And that's why her solo career fluctuated the way it did: Motown had no thought process when it came to her music career. Diana had a clear vision but Motown didn't share in it.

[RanRan79]

What I think the problem with LTISH was that it was a sudden change in sound. You go from the adult contemporary-ish soul styling from TMITM to this Birdland style performance. It was as if as I said they were trying so many different styles for Diana rather than, I guess, trying the Supremes method?

All of My Life could've worked for TMITM. LTISH should've spaced out but I don't know, I just don't think the album really worked. I mean it definitely fit the weird musical landscape of 1974 but it's still a peculiar song for Diana to record. My guess is they wanted to get Diana something like Midnight Train to Georgia [[which had a similar lyrical theme to LTISH) but one where an immediate crossover was assured.

The single did well. I don't object to the single. It's the album that was a problem. That's why I think any album it ended up on was probably going to sound lopsided.

I will say this, last week I listened to "Old Funky Rolls" for the first time since the LTISH expanded was new. It was one of those songs I listened to once and said "They must have been out of their freakin minds" and never played again. I was shocked to discover that, upon re-listening, it was nowhere near as bad as I thought it was. It was actually quite good. The problem I couldn't get over was that it just wasn't anything she should have been doing, but that doesn't make any less good.

So I was thinking, what if Diana had cut an album with styles that were very similar to "Last Time I Saw Him" and "Old Funky Rolls"? The Pointers were having great success with what they were doing around the same time. Might this have worked for Diana? Now I put the question out there as something to think about, but in the end I think that idea too risky and too safe all at the same time, which is a horrible combination to gamble on. Lol

[RanRan79]

^ And that's why her solo career fluctuated the way it did: Motown had no thought process when it came to her music career. Diana had a clear vision but Motown didn't share in it.

Agree, to a point. Gordy clearly didn't trust Diana's instincts. Interesting that once she was given total control, she didn't realize her own limitations and squandered her abilities at RCA.

[RanRan79]

One more thing: I really love "When Will I Come Home To You" and "Behind Closed Doors". I would have still used them, but as b sides for singles, not inclusion on the album I proposed.

[Circa 1824]

Agree, to a point. Gordy clearly didn't trust Diana's instincts. Interesting that once she was given total control, she didn't realize her own limitations and squandered her abilities at RCA.

Diana’s instincts are VERY questionable, and Gordy knew that.

[sup_fan]

What I think the problem with LTISH was that it was a sudden change in sound. You go from the adult contemporary-ish soul styling from TMITM to this Birdland style performance. It was as if as I said they were trying so many different styles for Diana rather than, I guess, trying the Supremes method?

All of My Life could've worked for TMITM. LTISH should've spaced out but I don't know, I just don't think the album really worked. I mean it definitely fit the weird musical landscape of 1974 but it's still a peculiar song for Diana to record. My guess is they wanted to get Diana something like Midnight Train to Georgia [[which had a similar lyrical theme to LTISH) but one where an immediate crossover was assured.

my guess is they wanted to do something more light hearted and youthful. TMITM, My Man, God Bless The Child - these were all heavier tunes. they all did well but Diana wasn't even 30 year. so they probably didn't want to age her out of the pop market

[sup_fan]

Not a bad lineup at all, but IMO it still presents the same problem: it's a hodge podge of sounds, and taken together, I don't think anyone would rush out to grab it.

"Last Time" is a damn good song, so I vote for it's release. The Gaudio tracks have a more "take notice" sound than most of the other tracks on the album. I really do think it was a mistake not allowing him to helm the entire project, especially since supposedly Diana said she dug him but that Gordy and co were worried about handing over the whole thing to him, as if they could or would do any better. Dummies.

Diana had wowed the crowd with LSTB and then the very mellow TMITM, but how much more could that lane be milked? It was time to switch it up and I think to stay competitive it should have been with something that hit a lot harder than "No One's Gonna Be A Fool Forever" and "Love Me".

If I had my way I would have kept "I Heard a Love Song", "Stone Liberty", and "Sleepin". Probably add in "Why Play Games". In that age, the follow up to TMITM should have said something. That's what the public was digging in a lot of albums. I think a theme about life, like with "Stone" and "Sleepin", and the assertiveness of love and breaking up, like with "Games" and "Heard", would have put Diana on a new level. Maybe Stevie could have given her one of his compositions. How about Willie Hutch? He did the Foxy Brown soundtrack the following year. What if he had given Diana "Have You Ever Asked Yourself Why [[All About the Money Game)"?

One of Motown's mistakes was that, after the riskiness of LSTB and TMITM, it then went back to safe. The problem was the public didn't want "safe" Diana.

totally agree that the harder rock sound of the Gaudio tracks is intriguing and could have made for a great lp. i think Stone Liberty is a great tune and Diana owns it. even though i cut it from LTISH, i would definitely have included in my revised DR76

i think the revised album hold together pretty well because nearly all of the productions are by Ron Miller or his partners, Masser and Tom Baird. So IMO they have a similar approach and sound. it's still the lush and romantic but with a country edge - LTISH, You, Sorry, Behind Closed. C&W had been continuing to emerge as a major genre so this could sort of be diana's nod to that.

[sup_fan]

The single did well. I don't object to the single. It's the album that was a problem. That's why I think any album it ended up on was probably going to sound lopsided.

I will say this, last week I listened to "Old Funky Rolls" for the first time since the LTISH expanded was new. It was one of those songs I listened to once and said "They must have been out of their freakin minds" and never played again. I was shocked to discover that, upon re-listening, it was nowhere near as bad as I thought it was. It was actually quite good. The problem I couldn't get over was that it just wasn't anything she should have been doing, but that doesn't make any less good.

So I was thinking, what if Diana had cut an album with styles that were very similar to "Last Time I Saw Him" and "Old Funky Rolls"? The Pointers were having great success with what they were doing around the same time. Might this have worked for Diana? Now I put the question out there as something to think about, but in the end I think that idea too risky and too safe all at the same time, which is a horrible combination to gamble on. Lol

I actually enjoy OFR. it's obviously meant to be light hearted. I've done multiple playlists for the LTISH set and several do include it. Given that most lps were only 10 tracks by this time, having both it and LTISH might be too much. two high-spirited, light hearted sort of goofy songs might bring the set down too much

i've also done a playlist that moves more to Michael Masser and LTISH. like i did above, i had his songs of Together and Sorry on the revised lp. you could also include To Love Again, depending on when the new lp would have been released. I also think TLA would work on that revised Mahogany soundtrack. the song obviously has a strong European sound to it.

[RanRan79]

^ And that's why her solo career fluctuated the way it did: Motown had no thought process when it came to her music career.

Further to your point, taking into account the totality of Diana's career, she was never as successful with recorded work as she was during her time as a Supreme from 1964 thru 1967. During that time, Gordy and Motown was very meticulous with what to do with the Supremes. Everything was calculated. The Liverpool album, C&W album, and Sam Cooke album were really all about a quick money grab. There's speculation that those albums were used to show the versatility of the group, but I don't buy that. The Supremes were one of the hottest things in music during that time and Gordy threw out three albums he hoped would capitalize on it and put money in his pocket. I think the original plans for There's a Place For Us and a Tribute To the Girls were more thought out and more the result of expanding the group's appeal, which was eventually realized in both the Copa and Merry Christmas albums. But the three money grabs aside, Gordy was serious about every step that the Supremes took, upward and onward.

The DRATS period is when things started falling apart. Gordy was switching a lot of his thoughts to television. Two tv specials in the works, more elaborate and over the top performances on variety shows, even that stupid Funny Girl album, Gordy was losing focus on the hits. And things continued out of control for Diana's solo career. He was on top of getting her film work, the live act was getting bigger and bolder, tv performances were now sporadic. His concentration was on these things. But she was always losing ground on the charts with her singles and albums. There was no more mandates about only hit singles being released, no more locking people in a room until they came up with some super great stuff.

If not for "Touch Me In the Morning", "Theme From Mahogany" and "Love Hangover", Diana could have spent the 70s with only one super major hit in "Mountain". Even "Upside Down" and "I'm Coming Out" was more the result of Diana's control than Gordy having an "a-ha" moment.

[RanRan79]

i think the revised album hold together pretty well because nearly all of the productions are by Ron Miller or his partners, Masser and Tom Baird. So IMO they have a similar approach and sound. it's still the lush and romantic but with a country edge - LTISH, You, Sorry, Behind Closed. C&W had been continuing to emerge as a major genre so this could sort of be diana's nod to that.

Yeah, but it's still boring. Lol Your proposed album's only real saving grace from complete boredom is "Last Time" and "Games". And it's all just too safe. It was time to switch some major gears. Ron was capable. Masser is my problem. I just can't take the idea of a whole album of his stuff. Lol

[RanRan79]

I actually enjoy OFR. it's obviously meant to be light hearted. I've done multiple playlists for the LTISH set and several do include it. Given that most lps were only 10 tracks by this time, having both it and LTISH might be too much. two high-spirited, light hearted sort of goofy songs might bring the set down too much

i've also done a playlist that moves more to Michael Masser and LTISH. like i did above, i had his songs of Together and Sorry on the revised lp. you could also include To Love Again, depending on when the new lp would have been released. I also think TLA would work on that revised Mahogany soundtrack. the song obviously has a strong European sound to it.

"To Love Again" would have been great on the Mahogany soundtrack. I've said it before, the soundtrack should have been a true Diana album, with her singing most of the songs.

I like "Together" and "Sorry", but neither was going to move the needle of her popularity.

[florence]

For some reason I was forbidden access to the Forum for the last couple of days.

Don't forget Last Time was the #1 Adult Contemporary single of 1974 - if JRT is to be believed [[and I do) it sold 650k which is an excellent sale.

It is the sort of sing-a-long happy song which the UK public seem to like and I was pretty shocked when it just about managed to go Top 40.

[lucky2012]

....I will say this, last week I listened to "Old Funky Rolls" for the first time since the LTISH expanded was new. It was one of those songs I listened to once and said "They must have been out of their freakin minds" and never played again. I was shocked to discover that, upon re-listening, it was nowhere near as bad as I thought it was. It was actually quite good. The problem I couldn't get over was that it just wasn't anything she should have been doing, but that doesn't make any less good.

So I was thinking, what if Diana had cut an album with styles that were very similar to "Last Time I Saw Him" and "Old Funky Rolls"? The Pointers were having great success with what they were doing around the same time. Might this have worked for Diana? Now I put the question out there as something to think about, but in the end I think that idea too risky and too safe all at the same time, which is a horrible combination to gamble on. Lol

I like OFR! In fact, I enjoy it when I want to listen to Diana having a fun time with a song. "I'm gonna kick you!!"
I don't think it's been mentioned here, but I always thought Last Time I Saw Him was in the vein of Dixieland Jazz/Ragtime hits Tony Orlando & Dawn were scoring big with around 1973-1974, leading to their own TV show in summer 1974. And yes, the Pointer Sisters were starting to score around the same time with their retro styles and stylings.

I wouldn't build an album around those two songs, but one with a lean towards country would include LTISH, OFR, Behind Closed Doors and Let Me Be The One.

I hate Together and never thought it was country, just meh.

[Ollie9]

As with Ross 78, any discussion regarding the “Last Time I Saw Him” album highlights the contrasting ideas, themes and concepts that we as fans think might have worked better. It would seem an album we rarely agree on.
“Stone Liberty” for me is a rather dull and boring track, being the first of a very few i would have jettisoned.
There are some really lovely tracks on the shelved “To The Baby” album that would have fitted very nicely, particularly “Part Of You”.
The sequencing of songs on the original release could also be a lot better in making it sound more cohesive.

[daviddh]

I like the song, Last Time I Saw Him but hated the album.

It came across as bottom of the barrel to me.
Who picked the track list on this album.
Not until the expanded editions did I listen to this mess.
I agree, To Love Again would have worked on Mahogany soundtrack as well as After You.
I think most of the out takes were far superior ,imo.
Let Me Be The One.
I think kiss me now and Sorry Doesn't always would fit well on LTISH but Together should stay in the vaults.

Also Blue being locked in the vaults for 30 years in criminal.
Someone was loosing his touch.crazy.

[daviddh]

Ok u guys got me .gotta go revisit this album...
Ok.still don't like it
My playlist
Last time I saw him
I heard a love song
Sorry doesn't always make it right
Why play games
Kiss me now
Let me the one
I want to go back there again
Old funky rolls
Where did we go wrong
Part of you

[Sotosound]

As with Ross 78, any discussion regarding the “Last Time I Saw Him” album highlights the contrasting ideas, themes and concepts that we as fans think might have worked better. It would seem an album we rarely agree on.
“Stone Liberty” for me is a rather dull and boring track, being the first of a very few i would have jettisoned.
There are some really lovely tracks on the shelved “To The Baby” album that would have fitted very nicely, particularly “Part Of You”.
The sequencing of songs on the original release could also be a lot better in making it sound more cohesive.

A year ago, she could have released an album entitled Ross, 78.

[daviddh]

Agree .thought that was on the table..
Well like five years ago

[sup_fan]

Further to your point, taking into account the totality of Diana's career, she was never as successful with recorded work as she was during her time as a Supreme from 1964 thru 1967. During that time, Gordy and Motown was very meticulous with what to do with the Supremes. Everything was calculated. The Liverpool album, C&W album, and Sam Cooke album were really all about a quick money grab. There's speculation that those albums were used to show the versatility of the group, but I don't buy that. The Supremes were one of the hottest things in music during that time and Gordy threw out three albums he hoped would capitalize on it and put money in his pocket. I think the original plans for There's a Place For Us and a Tribute To the Girls were more thought out and more the result of expanding the group's appeal, which was eventually realized in both the Copa and Merry Christmas albums. But the three money grabs aside, Gordy was serious about every step that the Supremes took, upward and onward.

i disagree - berry's goal from the onset of Hitsville was to find a black female singer[[s) that he could groom into stardom and have her cross over into the MOR/supper club world. that's where the money was. most rock and roll or girl group singers were relegated to the occasional Bandstand appearance or else did reviews like the Caravan of Stars. they played high school auditoriums. when your charging $2 for a ticket and dividing it across the whole caravan, no one is getting rich

older black artists were limited to the Apollo and Howard. a bit more money but again, no one was getting rich there either.

So if the girls were to make the jump to bigger tv appearances and to bigger clubs, they had to demonstrate that they were capable of singing more than Baby Love. The girls were singing Anyone With A Heart, People and I Am Woman before WDOLG was a big hit and so the sups already had already shown Berry they had the goods. now he had to show others

Ray Charles had released his creative masterpiece Modern Sounds In Country and Western Music in early 62. it was a huge critical and commercial success. so it was an easy jump for Berry to do the same with the girls

WRSC was released around the same time motown was releasing other albums in a similar vein. Stevie did his Ray Charles lp and Marvin did his Nat King Cole. Marvin really had ambitions for being a crooner, night club guy so he was super eager to do this one. Mary Wells had also prepared her Second Time Around MOR album.

Liverpool was totally all about cashing in although it could have been a much stronger effort. it was no secret that many of the british bands were doing covers of american R&B tunes. they had been very vocal about how they loved this genre and were often supportive of american black artists. Mary Wells tours with the beatles too. So the Beatles and others had done covers of US R&B tunes so it's not a huge leap to have americans doing british covers. it's just that the Brits were respectful of the US tunes whereas the Sups album was more a joke and just a money grab. imagine if they'd really put effort into it, had the Funk Bros doing the tracks. it could have been sensational

[lucky2012]

...So if the girls were to make the jump to bigger tv appearances and to bigger clubs, they had to demonstrate that they were capable of singing more than Baby Love. The girls were singing Anyone With A Heart, People and I Am Woman before WDOLG was a big hit and so the sups already had already shown Berry they had the goods. now he had to show others

Ray Charles had released his creative masterpiece Modern Sounds In Country and Western Music in early 62. it was a huge critical and commercial success. so it was an easy jump for Berry to do the same with the girls

WRSC was released around the same time motown was releasing other albums in a similar vein. Stevie did his Ray Charles lp and Marvin did his Nat King Cole. Marvin really had ambitions for being a crooner, night club guy so he was super eager to do this one. Mary Wells had also prepared her Second Time Around MOR album.

Liverpool was totally all about cashing in although it could have been a much stronger effort. it was no secret that many of the british bands were doing covers of american R&B tunes. they had been very vocal about how they loved this genre and were often supportive of american black artists. Mary Wells tours with the beatles too. So the Beatles and others had done covers of US R&B tunes so it's not a huge leap to have americans doing british covers. it's just that the Brits were respectful of the US tunes whereas the Sups album was more a joke and just a money grab. imagine if they'd really put effort into it, had the Funk Bros doing the tracks. it could have been sensational

Good points, sup_fan. Being so young at the time, I had no idea or thought about MOR/supper clubs. The Supremes, like Berry Gordy, clearly did. I wonder if other girl groups thought similarly.
I agree with your points about the specialty albums. Ray Charles' Modern Sounds in Country & Western was monumental, and I remember even Nat King Cole's Ramblin' Rose album after that. I haven't listened to Marvin's Nat Cole and Stevie's Ray Charles tributes, but I'm glad the Supremes did We Remember Sam Cooke. It didn't seem aimed as much at the adult MOR market.

A Bit Of Liverpool was a bit of a mess, but a more obvious choice for a specialty album. Like most here, i wish it had not been such a rush job. The Funk Bros and more careful planning could have made it a special specialty album.

[midnightman]

Further to your point, taking into account the totality of Diana's career, she was never as successful with recorded work as she was during her time as a Supreme from 1964 thru 1967. During that time, Gordy and Motown was very meticulous with what to do with the Supremes. Everything was calculated. The Liverpool album, C&W album, and Sam Cooke album were really all about a quick money grab. There's speculation that those albums were used to show the versatility of the group, but I don't buy that. The Supremes were one of the hottest things in music during that time and Gordy threw out three albums he hoped would capitalize on it and put money in his pocket. I think the original plans for There's a Place For Us and a Tribute To the Girls were more thought out and more the result of expanding the group's appeal, which was eventually realized in both the Copa and Merry Christmas albums. But the three money grabs aside, Gordy was serious about every step that the Supremes took, upward and onward.

The DRATS period is when things started falling apart. Gordy was switching a lot of his thoughts to television. Two tv specials in the works, more elaborate and over the top performances on variety shows, even that stupid Funny Girl album, Gordy was losing focus on the hits. And things continued out of control for Diana's solo career. He was on top of getting her film work, the live act was getting bigger and bolder, tv performances were now sporadic. His concentration was on these things. But she was always losing ground on the charts with her singles and albums. There was no more mandates about only hit singles being released, no more locking people in a room until they came up with some super great stuff.

If not for "Touch Me In the Morning", "Theme From Mahogany" and "Love Hangover", Diana could have spent the 70s with only one super major hit in "Mountain". Even "Upside Down" and "I'm Coming Out" was more the result of Diana's control than Gordy having an "a-ha" moment.

This is basically how Diana's career was in a nutshell after 1967. This right here. Gordy stopped really putting focus on her music, which is why her solo career is such a hot mess.

[midnightman]

For some reason I was forbidden access to the Forum for the last couple of days.

Don't forget Last Time was the #1 Adult Contemporary single of 1974 - if JRT is to be believed [[and I do) it sold 650k which is an excellent sale.

It is the sort of sing-a-long happy song which the UK public seem to like and I was pretty shocked when it just about managed to go Top 40.

Having a number one AC hit was fabulous but I wonder how many people even remember it NOW. I was a kid when Motown oldies were being played on radio and the Diana songs they played were the smashes but not this one. In fact, it wasn't until I happened to be viewing one of those Music Choice stations [[likely the soft rock channel) that I heard it at all. And that was early 2000s-ish.

[sup_fan]

Having a number one AC hit was fabulous but I wonder how many people even remember it NOW. I was a kid when Motown oldies were being played on radio and the Diana songs they played were the smashes but not this one. In fact, it wasn't until I happened to be viewing one of those Music Choice stations [[likely the soft rock channel) that I heard it at all. And that was early 2000s-ish.

typically a #1 on a non-pop chart typically doesn't have as recognition. He's My Man was a regional #1 dance hit. same with LTISH as a #1 AC. R&B was a larger chart but even then if a song topped that chart but didn't really register on Pop, it wasn't a big hit and odds are isn't widely know. Let Me Go The Right Way went Top 30 R&B but big deal.

what's interesting though is even the Pop Chart ranking doesn't guarantee the longevity of a song. Stoned Love went 7 on the Pop Charts and sold much more than My World Is Empty which went to 5. but My World is easily the more recognizable song today.

Reflections is more recognized than Love Is Here.

[reese]

typically a #1 on a non-pop chart typically doesn't have as recognition. He's My Man was a regional #1 dance hit. same with LTISH as a #1 AC. R&B was a larger chart but even then if a song topped that chart but didn't really register on Pop, it wasn't a big hit and odds are isn't widely know. Let Me Go The Right Way went Top 30 R&B but big deal.

what's interesting though is even the Pop Chart ranking doesn't guarantee the longevity of a song. Stoned Love went 7 on the Pop Charts and sold much more than My World Is Empty which went to 5. but My World is easily the more recognizable song today.

Reflections is more recognized than Love Is Here.

I remember hearing LTISH every morning while getting ready for school. Granted, it was on what I guess would be considered an AC station but still I heard it enough to know that it was a hit. Plus it was big enough to be included on Diana's first greatest hits collection as well as her appearance on the Muppet Show.

[sup_fan]

it's so odd that LTISH was done on the muppets. i think the segment worked perfectly well. and i think Hangover and that crazyass fever dream sequence of her dancing with the San Diego Padre's bird coming down from the ceiling was insanely great too.

but the muppet show was from Feb 1980 [[which means it was probably taped in the fall). so Upside Down and the chic album weren't released yet. but why didn't they do The Boss? or something more recent

[sup_fan]

i did play around with more playlists and came up with a revised DR 76. this came about from our discussions on a revised LTISH and how the Bob Gaudio tracks are rather out of place. and then if the Mahogany soundtrack was released as originally planned, with Diana singing Masser material on Side 1 and then film music on Side 2. so if both of these occurred, then how would DR 76 work

When will i come home to you
one love in my lifetime
ain't nothin' but a maybe
love hangover

I heard a love song
Harmony
you're good my child
Stone liberty

[TheMotownManiac]

Not a bad lineup at all, but IMO it still presents the same problem: it's a hodge podge of sounds, and taken together, I don't think anyone would rush out to grab it.

"Last Time" is a damn good song, so I vote for it's release. The Gaudio tracks have a more "take notice" sound than most of the other tracks on the album. I really do think it was a mistake not allowing him to helm the entire project, especially since supposedly Diana said she dug him but that Gordy and co were worried about handing over the whole thing to him, as if they could or would do any better. Dummies.

Diana had wowed the crowd with LSTB and then the very mellow TMITM, but how much more could that lane be milked? It was time to switch it up and I think to stay competitive it should have been with something that hit a lot harder than "No One's Gonna Be A Fool Forever" and "Love Me".

If I had my way I would have kept "I Heard a Love Song", "Stone Liberty", and "Sleepin". Probably add in "Why Play Games". In that age, the follow up to TMITM should have said something. That's what the public was digging in a lot of albums. I think a theme about life, like with "Stone" and "Sleepin", and the assertiveness of love and breaking up, like with "Games" and "Heard", would have put Diana on a new level. Maybe Stevie could have given her one of his compositions. How about Willie Hutch? He did the Foxy Brown soundtrack the following year. What if he had given Diana "Have You Ever Asked Yourself Why [[All About the Money Game)"?

One of Motown's mistakes was that, after the riskiness of LSTB and TMITM, it then went back to safe. The problem was the public didn't want "safe" Diana.

The public doesn’t wanna safe anybody. They want a quality album if they’re going to shell out the box for it, and this was not a quality album. David single was certainly strong, and performed well enough, but it didn’t exactly entice people to want to buy a whole album of that sound. There are just too many mediocre tracks on it. Putting turn around on there must’ve been some sort of a joke - cementing it as the biggest hodgepodge in the history of hodgepodgeiam. I like the Bob Gaudio tracks, but neither one of them were ready for single release as they were. Nothing was. But with a little tweaking I think Stone liberty could’ve been a top 10 hit. Add with more tweaking. I heard a love song could’ve hit. I like a few tracks on there but, there has to be some sort of interplay between the tracks. This was a hot mess. I would not have put sleeping on there, I would’ve save that for the black album. I think the mood is perfect for it , but I still wouldn’t have sacrificed. Kiss me now. I see the value of that lightheartedness.

[Ollie9]

The public doesn’t wanna safe anybody. They want a quality album if they’re going to shell out the box for it, and this was not a quality album. David single was certainly strong, and performed well enough, but it didn’t exactly entice people to want to buy a whole album of that sound. There are just too many mediocre tracks on it. Putting turn around on there must’ve been some sort of a joke - cementing it as the biggest hodgepodge in the history of hodgepodgeiam. I like the Bob Gaudio tracks, but neither one of them were ready for single release as they were. Nothing was. But with a little tweaking I think Stone liberty could’ve been a top 10 hit. Add with more tweaking. I heard a love song could’ve hit. I like a few tracks on there but, there has to be some sort of interplay between the tracks. This was a hot mess. I would not have put sleeping on there, I would’ve save that for the black album. I think the mood is perfect for it , but I still wouldn’t have sacrificed. Kiss me now. I see the value of that lightheartedness.

Continuity and timing are the main issues when discussing the albums faults.
Side One hangs together pretty well, but needed a more uplifting track to follow the rather maudlin, but superbly performed “Sleepin”. I would have replaced “You” with “Behind Closed Doors”.
Side Two is a complete hodgepodge of contrasting styles. For continuity, i would have used some of the songs from the abandoned “To The Baby” set, adding “Get It All Together” and perhaps “Kewpie Doll which compliment the vibe of songs such as “Part Of You” etc.
Interesting idea regarding “Sleepin”. It might have worked in place of “Smile”, but would have needed a remix to bring it more up to date.

[sup_fan]

i think Sleepin is a very well performed song but it's so niche that it really just doesn't work anywhere. perhaps if they had been dusting off the Blue album? maybe in with a whole Michael Masser lush symphonic package? or doing a social commentary album like a What's Going On? but it's lyric are so extreme that it just is too hard to integrate into a project where everything else is about love.

the DR 76 set is a different sound. You're Good My Child, LH, One Love, and Ain't Nothing But a Maybe have a different tone and vibe. the Gaudio tracks actually seem to fit better there. all of them have a bit of a funk aspect and so the rock and the disco sort of fits together.

i like Kiss Me Now and have tried working it into my revised playlists for DR 76 but it's just not working. although VERY different in sound from Sleepin', it's sort of a similar thing. it's just too unique and different to really fit into a cohesive project.

[Ollie9]

i think Sleepin is a very well performed song but it's so niche that it really just doesn't work anywhere. perhaps if they had been dusting off the Blue album? maybe in with a whole Michael Masser lush symphonic package? or doing a social commentary album like a What's Going On? but it's lyric are so extreme that it just is too hard to integrate into a project where everything else is about love.

the DR 76 set is a different sound. You're Good My Child, LH, One Love, and Ain't Nothing But a Maybe have a different tone and vibe. the Gaudio tracks actually seem to fit better there. all of them have a bit of a funk aspect and so the rock and the disco sort of fits together.

i like Kiss Me Now and have tried working it into my revised playlists for DR 76 but it's just not working. although VERY different in sound from Sleepin', it's sort of a similar thing. it's just too unique and different to really fit into a cohesive project.

Interesting, as allowing for the various producers used, i have always found the Diana Ross 76 album to be a really cohesive sounding set. Kiss Me Now” adds a little playful fun to the proceedings which I think compliments the album as a whole.
I think “Sleepin” contained just too good a vocal performance from Diana to have been left in the can as the song really highlights the actress in her voice.
I think for the Gaudio produced songs to have worked, they would have to have been part of a whole album with a similar edge and vibe. This being the chief reason why i think they would have been better left off “LTISH”. Although a better fit, not sure DR 76 would have been right either.

[BobbyC]

Florence LaRue's version of Surrender is infinitely superior. Flame on.

[sup_fan]

Interesting, as allowing for the various producers used, i have always found the Diana Ross 76 album to be a really cohesive sounding set. Kiss Me Now” adds a little playful fun to the proceedings which I think compliments the album as a whole.
I think “Sleepin” contained just too good a vocal performance from Diana to have been left in the can as the song really highlights the actress in her voice.
I think for the Gaudio produced songs to have worked, they would have to have been part of a whole album with a similar edge and vibe. This being the chief reason why i think they would have been better left off “LTISH”. Although a better fit, not sure DR 76 would have been right either.

i don't disagree that the released DR 76 is very enjoyable. the varied approach is something that she excels at [[look at her concerts after all). and if you look at Silk Electric, that too runs the gamut of styles and sounds. of course with that lp, the production of her vocals is a problem.

a whole Gaudio album might have been a really interesting and strong release. i think the tunes he did with her are mostly quite good. in redoing the album, by pulling the lush/soapy Masser tunes and adding the Gaudio, you sort of have a funk sound for her but then experimenting with that funkiness in rock, ballad and disco formats. it's not perfect i'll admit.

back with the Masser material, you could do another warm and lush package like TMITM. remove LTISH and the country things. then focus on the Masser and Miller work. Sleepin would fit in with that, along with Mahogany, I thought it took a little time, after all, no one's gonna be a fool forever, to love again, love me, together, where did we go wrong.

[Ollie9]

i don't disagree that the released DR 76 is very enjoyable. the varied approach is something that she excels at [[look at her concerts after all). and if you look at Silk Electric, that too runs the gamut of styles and sounds. of course with that lp, the production of her vocals is a problem.

a whole Gaudio album might have been a really interesting and strong release. i think the tunes he did with her are mostly quite good. in redoing the album, by pulling the lush/soapy Masser tunes and adding the Gaudio, you sort of have a funk sound for her but then experimenting with that funkiness in rock, ballad and disco formats. it's not perfect i'll admit.

back with the Masser material, you could do another warm and lush package like TMITM. remove LTISH and the country things. then focus on the Masser and Miller work. Sleepin would fit in with that, along with Mahogany, I thought it took a little time, after all, no one's gonna be a fool forever, to love again, love me, together, where did we go wrong.

I now think the main fault of LTISH is the sequencing of the songs. I always found side two rather dreary.
My track choice would be

Last Time I Saw Him
No One’s Gonna Be. Fool Forever
Love Me
Sleepin
I Heard A Love Song
Side 2
Get It All Together
Part Of You
Stone Liberty
Behind Closed Doors
Kewpie Doll.

[RanRan79]

i disagree - berry's goal from the onset of Hitsville was to find a black female singer[[s) that he could groom into stardom and have her cross over into the MOR/supper club world. that's where the money was. most rock and roll or girl group singers were relegated to the occasional Bandstand appearance or else did reviews like the Caravan of Stars. they played high school auditoriums. when your charging $2 for a ticket and dividing it across the whole caravan, no one is getting rich

older black artists were limited to the Apollo and Howard. a bit more money but again, no one was getting rich there either.

So if the girls were to make the jump to bigger tv appearances and to bigger clubs, they had to demonstrate that they were capable of singing more than Baby Love. The girls were singing Anyone With A Heart, People and I Am Woman before WDOLG was a big hit and so the sups already had already shown Berry they had the goods. now he had to show others

Ray Charles had released his creative masterpiece Modern Sounds In Country and Western Music in early 62. it was a huge critical and commercial success. so it was an easy jump for Berry to do the same with the girls

WRSC was released around the same time motown was releasing other albums in a similar vein. Stevie did his Ray Charles lp and Marvin did his Nat King Cole. Marvin really had ambitions for being a crooner, night club guy so he was super eager to do this one. Mary Wells had also prepared her Second Time Around MOR album.

Liverpool was totally all about cashing in although it could have been a much stronger effort. it was no secret that many of the british bands were doing covers of american R&B tunes. they had been very vocal about how they loved this genre and were often supportive of american black artists. Mary Wells tours with the beatles too. So the Beatles and others had done covers of US R&B tunes so it's not a huge leap to have americans doing british covers. it's just that the Brits were respectful of the US tunes whereas the Sups album was more a joke and just a money grab. imagine if they'd really put effort into it, had the Funk Bros doing the tracks. it could have been sensational

Liverpool was cut in like two days in September and released a month later, when the group only had two legit hits, with no one foreseeing that they could repeat with a third hit single. The album was a cash grab.

Sam Cooke was murdered in December. The girls cut the We Remember album over weeks in February and March, and the album hit the street in April. Cash grab.

The C&W album was basically a two year old album that was dusted off, had the vocals recut, and the Andantes mixed in. Cash grab.

It was the proposed There's A Place For Us album that was Gordy making the marketing decision to package the ladies up and sale them to a brand new audience. This intention continued with the A Tribute to the Girls sessions, and then of course both projects would be abandoned, in favor of the live Copa album and the Christmas album, both of which did an excellent job of doing what Gordy hoped to accomplish.

But the trio of albums sandwiched in between WDOLG and More Hits was Gordy trying to squeeze as much money out of the Supremes as he could because he had to be smart enough to realize there was a very real possibility that the Supremes might come and go like nearly every other "pop" group before them.

[reese]

Liverpool was cut in like two days in September and released a month later, when the group only had two legit hits, with no one foreseeing that they could repeat with a third hit single. The album was a cash grab.

Sam Cooke was murdered in December. The girls cut the We Remember album over weeks in February and March, and the album hit the street in April. Cash grab.

The C&W album was basically a two year old album that was dusted off, had the vocals recut, and the Andantes mixed in. Cash grab.

It was the proposed There's A Place For Us album that was Gordy making the marketing decision to package the ladies up and sale them to a brand new audience. This intention continued with the A Tribute to the Girls sessions, and then of course both projects would be abandoned, in favor of the live Copa album and the Christmas album, both of which did an excellent job of doing what Gordy hoped to accomplish.

But the trio of albums sandwiched in between WDOLG and More Hits was Gordy trying to squeeze as much money out of the Supremes as he could because he had to be smart enough to realize there was a very real possibility that the Supremes might come and go like nearly every other "pop" group before them.

I recall reading an old 60s interview with Barney Ales where he said that Motown's distributors were clamoring for Supremes albums so that also could have been a factor behind the release of the first trio of theme albums.

[sup_fan]

Liverpool was cut in like two days in September and released a month later, when the group only had two legit hits, with no one foreseeing that they could repeat with a third hit single. The album was a cash grab.

Sam Cooke was murdered in December. The girls cut the We Remember album over weeks in February and March, and the album hit the street in April. Cash grab.

The C&W album was basically a two year old album that was dusted off, had the vocals recut, and the Andantes mixed in. Cash grab.

It was the proposed There's A Place For Us album that was Gordy making the marketing decision to package the ladies up and sale them to a brand new audience. This intention continued with the A Tribute to the Girls sessions, and then of course both projects would be abandoned, in favor of the live Copa album and the Christmas album, both of which did an excellent job of doing what Gordy hoped to accomplish.

But the trio of albums sandwiched in between WDOLG and More Hits was Gordy trying to squeeze as much money out of the Supremes as he could because he had to be smart enough to realize there was a very real possibility that the Supremes might come and go like nearly every other "pop" group before them.

other than the Liverpool set, i think that's being a bit dismissive. the Beatles were SO huge and the Sups had suddenly become superstars that yes, this was a ploy to make fast money off of those two facts.

But Berry's whole vision was to find a female artist that he could break into the uppercrust nightclub circuit because he knew that was the long-term money opportunity. you're right that pop stars were often one-hit-wonders and he probably realized that too. so there was potentially only a brief window in which to break through.

The sups had already been doing an unusually broad array of songs. as you mentioned, in 62 they did a country song! in their act prior to WDOLG they were doing people, anyone who had a heart. hardly the standard fare for teen girl groups. so Berry and the motown execs knew the Sups were just another group like the Marvelettes, the Shangri Las, the Cookies, etc. But the rest of the entertainment worlds still saw them as "just girl pop singers." and black ones on top of that. So he had to demonstrate that they really could do more.

now i do agree that the execution of these albums wasn't always as strong as it could have been. the Sam Cooke sessions are the best by far. could they have been better if the Funk Bros were on them - absolutely. but the released results are still quite strong. their 3-part harmonies as exquisite.

CW&P would have been better served to have some more actual country songs on it and less motown originals. the backing tracks are pretty decent, given what the company was doing in late 62 and early 63. sure they're not the quality of the R&H set

[RanRan79]

I recall reading an old 60s interview with Barney Ales where he said that Motown's distributors were clamoring for Supremes albums so that also could have been a factor behind the release of the first trio of theme albums.

Which tells me that the Supremes were in high demand and Gordy needed to satisfy it, hence why the trio of lps were put together quickly. They were not a part of the master plan.

[RanRan79]

other than the Liverpool set, i think that's being a bit dismissive. the Beatles were SO huge and the Sups had suddenly become superstars that yes, this was a ploy to make fast money off of those two facts.

But Berry's whole vision was to find a female artist that he could break into the uppercrust nightclub circuit because he knew that was the long-term money opportunity. you're right that pop stars were often one-hit-wonders and he probably realized that too. so there was potentially only a brief window in which to break through.

The sups had already been doing an unusually broad array of songs. as you mentioned, in 62 they did a country song! in their act prior to WDOLG they were doing people, anyone who had a heart. hardly the standard fare for teen girl groups. so Berry and the motown execs knew the Sups were just another group like the Marvelettes, the Shangri Las, the Cookies, etc. But the rest of the entertainment worlds still saw them as "just girl pop singers." and black ones on top of that. So he had to demonstrate that they really could do more.

now i do agree that the execution of these albums wasn't always as strong as it could have been. the Sam Cooke sessions are the best by far. could they have been better if the Funk Bros were on them - absolutely. but the released results are still quite strong. their 3-part harmonies as exquisite.

CW&P would have been better served to have some more actual country songs on it and less motown originals. the backing tracks are pretty decent, given what the company was doing in late 62 and early 63. sure they're not the quality of the R&H set

Berry's vision isn't the issue here. We don't disagree about what he ultimately hoped to accomplish with the Supremes. My argument is that the trio of theme albums, as Reese put it, were not about his plan but about milking the group's popularity any which way he could.

Sam Cooke wasn't even cold in his grave when the girls started recording the album. Anybody who cuts a tribute album on an artist who hasn't even decomposed yet is looking to cash in. That's not me being dismissive of the art of the album. The We Remember album is one of my favorites. But it boggles my mind that anyone would see it as something other than an attempt to get money on the newly unprecedented fame of the Supremes and the death of a popular artist.

And again, the C&W album was dusted off. Dusted off. Lol It wasn't supposed to see the light of day after it's initial shelving, but if the public was screaming that they wanted Supremes albums, and the company is under the gun- if you will- to satisfy that need as quickly as possible, nobody is thinking strategically, and that's why it was brought back out. There's A Place For Us was strategic, At the Copa was strategic, Merry Christmas was strategic. Liverpool, Remember and C&W were only cut to capitalize off of the group's popularity as quickly as possible, which is what happened.

None of those albums did a thing to push the group where Gordy wanted them to go. I don't believe for one moment that the group got any television or concert bookings based off anything they did on those three albums. What got the girls into the Copa, and also into the Copa-like clubs that the girls played while testing out the new act, was what they were already doing in their act: "People", "You're Nobody", "Somewhere", etc, all songs that were recorded during the There's a Place sessions, which was to likely have been the album that Gordy intended to use to showcase the other side of the group that might appeal to the nightclub audience.

[sup_fan]

Berry's vision isn't the issue here. We don't disagree about what he ultimately hoped to accomplish with the Supremes. My argument is that the trio of theme albums, as Reese put it, were not about his plan but about milking the group's popularity any which way he could.

Sam Cooke wasn't even cold in his grave when the girls started recording the album. Anybody who cuts a tribute album on an artist who hasn't even decomposed yet is looking to cash in. That's not me being dismissive of the art of the album. The We Remember album is one of my favorites. But it boggles my mind that anyone would see it as something other than an attempt to get money on the newly unprecedented fame of the Supremes and the death of a popular artist.

And again, the C&W album was dusted off. Dusted off. Lol It wasn't supposed to see the light of day after it's initial shelving, but if the public was screaming that they wanted Supremes albums, and the company is under the gun- if you will- to satisfy that need as quickly as possible, nobody is thinking strategically, and that's why it was brought back out. There's A Place For Us was strategic, At the Copa was strategic, Merry Christmas was strategic. Liverpool, Remember and C&W were only cut to capitalize off of the group's popularity as quickly as possible, which is what happened.

None of those albums did a thing to push the group where Gordy wanted them to go. I don't believe for one moment that the group got any television or concert bookings based off anything they did on those three albums. What got the girls into the Copa, and also into the Copa-like clubs that the girls played while testing out the new act, was what they were already doing in their act: "People", "You're Nobody", "Somewhere", etc, all songs that were recorded during the There's a Place sessions, which was to likely have been the album that Gordy intended to use to showcase the other side of the group that might appeal to the nightclub audience.

Ray Charles did his groundbreaking C&W album a year or so prior and it was a huge critical and commercial success. Sam had made the jump to being regarded as both a pop star and a Copa crooner. so the idea was to associate the girls with this tier of entertainer. rock and roll had a real stigma at the time. many viewed it as the "devil's music" and so the fact the girls were first and foremost "girl group rockers" meant they had to get people to see they were more than that. Did the CW&P specifically land them the Copa gig? no - of course not. but all of it combined together to help break them through. while the albums didn't sell like WDOLG they did chart. combine this with their hullabaloo performance of You're Nobody, their more sophisticated stage shows, their squeaky clean "America's Sweethearts" image, etc and you get them finally catching a break with Jules Podell and securing that all-important Copa gig.

it's about the total strategy, not 1 specific piece. but without one or another piece, the whole strategy might not have worked

[RanRan79]

it's about the total strategy, not 1 specific piece. but without one or another piece, the whole strategy might not have worked

I don't believe the strategy hinged on either of the three albums. Without them, the Supremes would have gone where they eventually did. Gordy was always first and foremost about the money. It made sense to get as much money on the group as possible, however possible. My suspicion is that because C&W and Sam Cooke ultimately "bombed", Gordy figured out very quickly that when it came to the Supremes, every single thing needed to be thought out and have a purpose beyond hoping people would buy anything "Supremes". The fear of dropping another unsuccessful project on his biggest act is probably what led to the There's a Place album being shelved, as well as the Tribute to the Girls project not even being completed. Now everything had to be meticulously planned, and that's why we ended up with six consecutive hit albums in a row [[not counting GH), even specialty albums, after the death of the We Remember album.