Surrender - discussion of the album and it's singles

[sup_fan]

this lp seems to often be high on fan favorite lists. A&S finally got a whole album to themselves. the songs are passionate, gripping, dynamic. and Diana's vocals are powerful, thoughtful and captivating. yet in many ways, this album didn't live up to its potential or expectations. given the quality of the album, it should have been bigger.
even at the time, other than by top fans, it seems to be mostly forgotten and overlooked.

yet it's chart positions were only so-so, the singles didn't seem to really do as well as they should

so what are your thoughts?

were Remember Me, Reach Out and Surrender the best choices for singles?

how much was it timing that hindered this set? with Diana's upcoming pregnancy

we only really know of 1 tune that was left off - Baby I'll Come. would you have swapped one of the released songs in order to make room for this one?

[reese]

SURRENDER ranks amongst my top 10 Diana favorite albums. Her vocals on this one are so heartfelt that you can really feel what she is singing, particularly on songs like I CAN'T GIVE BACK THE LOVE I FEEL FOR YOU, REMEMBER ME, A SIMPLE THING LIKE CRY, and especially ALL THE BEFORES. In an interview with David Nathan, Diana said that by the time she recorded it, she had been through some things in life. Also, she said she began to trust herself more as a singer.

I think the weird release schedule that Motown gave Diana's initial solo releases probably affected chart placings. EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING is released without a single but REMEMBER ME is released as a non-lp single?

I find no faults with the singles themselves ,although I admit that it took years for me to warm up to REACH OUT, I'LL BE THERE. So I might not have released that one, especially with the bad single edit they gave it. Plus it seems so derivative of AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN HIGH ENOUGH that it might be hard for some to take it on its own merits. But REMEMBER ME and SURRENDER were good choices, IMO.

Unless I'm mistaken, Diana did zilch promotion aside from her first solo tv special. Granted, she was newly married and pregnant with all of the drama that entailed. But a few visits to Mike Douglas or Merv Griffin could have happened. There were copies of REMEMBER ME that had the note "See Diana sing it on her special DIANA!" or something like that. But the special didn't air until April so REMEMBER ME was already charting downward [if it all] by the time the special aired. And by the time the album itself was released, Diana was close to giving birth as well as doing work on LADY SINGS THE BLUES.

[RanRan79]

My favorite Ross solo lp. I echo much of what Reese says here. Fantastic productions all the way around, and Diana was killing it on every cut.

I love "Reach Out I'll Be There" but I wouldn't have chosen it as a single. I think Motown got "Remember Me" right, but of course it was released among that period of Motown apparently just doing any ole thing without thought to Diana's success. "Remember Me" did pretty well. I think "Surrender" was a good choice of single. I think "I Can't Give Back the Love" might have made a good single, as would "And If You See Him", perhaps with a different mix.

Unfortunately, this great album wasn't given the post release attention that it deserved from Motown. Motown screwed Diana up after "Aint No Mountain High Enough". I'll never understand why go through all the turmoil that it took to create the solo Diana Ross, only to squander opportunities after she got the big hit. I get that Lady Sings was becoming an important part of the plan. And let's be real, Gordy getting Diana pregnant and then Diana having to find someone to quickly marry and lie about paternity and all that drama just made everything worse. So Surrender got the shaft.

And that's unfortunate because it really is one of the artistic crowning achievements in her career, IMO.

I love "Baby I'll Come" but I'm not sure I love it enough to switch it out with anything. Somewhere in the forum is a concept I created where the songs tell a story. I'll see if I can find it.

[thommg]

I'm one of those who feel the album is one of her top 5. I think the singles were fine choices, although Reach Out didn't really grab me uti the extended remix done for the Ross lp in 1978. I felt the songs really showed Diana's range, and the tracks and background vocals fit her like a glove.

[sup_fan]

i agree that every song is a winner here. All The Befores is one of my favs and it is always on playlists. the piano part, the amazing production, the painful lyrics, etc. adore it

I think the singles are great songs but i agree Reach Out should not have been a single. i even question if it should have been recorded. Mountain was so amazing that just about any song you try to do to replicate it will fall short. had Mountain never existed - OMG! Reach Out would have been sensational. but out of respect for the masterpiece that is Mountain, you almost have to just leave it alone.

Remember Me is another fav. but i don't know that i think it's the perfect follow up to Mountain. I think Surrender whips up more hysteria on the record but it is not a copy cat like Reach Out. Remember Me is very nice but too subtle and soft, at least in the earlier parts.

so i would have only done 2 singles. Surrender, then Remember Me

[daviddh]

The album is great and I remember wearing this album out.
Imo..
BG keeping Diana off TV for a year was a big mistake
Her Tv special ,which aired ,I think in April showcased none of these songs as I recall but did feature songs from EIE.
I honestly don't recall Diana on TV much in those days and I think it hurt.
Out of sight, out of mind.
I blame Motown for dropping the ball...but then again, they did it again with my other fav album ,Baby It's Me

[marybrewster]

this lp seems to often be high on fan favorite lists. A&S finally got a whole album to themselves. the songs are passionate, gripping, dynamic. and Diana's vocals are powerful, thoughtful and captivating. yet in many ways, this album didn't live up to its potential or expectations. given the quality of the album, it should have been bigger.
even at the time, other than by top fans, it seems to be mostly forgotten and overlooked.

yet it's chart positions were only so-so, the singles didn't seem to really do as well as they should

so what are your thoughts?

were Remember Me, Reach Out and Surrender the best choices for singles?

how much was it timing that hindered this set? with Diana's upcoming pregnancy

we only really know of 1 tune that was left off - Baby I'll Come. would you have swapped one of the released songs in order to make room for this one?

One thought: was it TOO much TOO soon? We talk alot about the Supremes releasing a lot of product in 1970/71, but the same is also true for Diana.

DIANA ROSS - 6/19/70
EIE - 11/3/70
SURRENDER - 7/6/71

That's an album almost every 6 months. Artists today release a record every 6 years.

[RanRan79]

One thought: was it TOO much TOO soon? We talk alot about the Supremes releasing a lot of product in 1970/71, but the same is also true for Diana.

DIANA ROSS - 6/19/70
EIE - 11/3/70
SURRENDER - 7/6/71

That's an album almost every 6 months. Artists today release a record every 6 years.

Absolutely. And the single release schedules for EIE and Surrender were criminal. I think the debut album could have squeezed out one more single. Which song? I don't know. Then in early 71 EIE could be released, with "I'm Still Waiting" and maybe one more single from that. Surrender could have come out in late 71 and let Diana ride that into Lady Sings. I don't know what Motown was doing.

[bradsupremes]

Absolutely. And the single release schedules for EIE and Surrender were criminal. I think the debut album could have squeezed out one more single. Which song? I don't know. Then in early 71 EIE could be released, with "I'm Still Waiting" and maybe one more single from that. Surrender could have come out in late 71 and let Diana ride that into Lady Sings. I don't know what Motown was doing.

It'd be hard to issue another single from her debut album after how dynamite "Mountain" was and have it match its success. "Where There Was Darkness" could have been a possible option - not sure it would have gone to number one though. "Something On My Mind" is another, but it may have been too light.

While EIE has some good tunes on it, what was the point of issuing it without a lead single?? I don't understand what Gordy was thinking. I think the whole album should have been sidelined. She and Ashford & Simpson found a working formula for success. Why give her to Deke Richards and Hal Davis as her next album is just idiotic to me. Granted her singles were still Ashford & Simpson, but throwing this in the middle of it all is just confusing.

If they really wanting to build off the success of "Mountain," Ashford & Simpson should have recorded "Reach Out, I'll Be There" earlier than February 1971 and issued it as the follow up single. The success of "Mountain" would have boosted it chart-wise. If there is anything to learn is that if something is successful, duplicate it. The other thing is that it should have been released in full. I absolutely hate the mix and edits of the single and think its why it charted so poorly - plus it was released two singles and 10 months after "Mountain." It was like trying to replicate a successful formula as an afterthought. Strike while the iron is hot. I would have pushed for "Surrender" after that and then "Remember Me." The fact "Surrender" charted so low is criminal - that should have gone top 10 and didn't make much sense to me why the title of the album was the third single from the album. Another headscratcher.

[sup_fan]

someone [[maybe Valerie in the EE booklet?) mentioned that perhaps the song "Surrender" was just a bit too r&b. sure other black singers were having heavy mainstream/pop success with more traditionally r&b songs. but that wasn't really Diana's lane.

personally i think the song is great and i do think it was pop enough but helped to broaden Diana's sound. Sort of like how Jean and the new Sups expanded their sound and image a bit in 70 too.

if it were to find any criticism with the song, perhaps the choruses are just too pounding. all of the backing vocals are in unison with the lead. so it almost becomes oppressive. the verses do a great job of dropped the levels back down, and diana's sexy vocals help too. Mountain certainly rises to its orgasmic explosiveness, but it still had breaks. Surrender's chorus and ending is just sort of this wall of sound that never ends.

[reese]

someone [[maybe Valerie in the EE booklet?) mentioned that perhaps the song "Surrender" was just a bit too r&b. sure other black singers were having heavy mainstream/pop success with more traditionally r&b songs. but that wasn't really Diana's lane.

personally i think the song is great and i do think it was pop enough but helped to broaden Diana's sound. Sort of like how Jean and the new Sups expanded their sound and image a bit in 70 too.

if it were to find any criticism with the song, perhaps the choruses are just too pounding. all of the backing vocals are in unison with the lead. so it almost becomes oppressive. the verses do a great job of dropped the levels back down, and diana's sexy vocals help too. Mountain certainly rises to its orgasmic explosiveness, but it still had breaks. Surrender's chorus and ending is just sort of this wall of sound that never ends.

I recall reading somewhere that SURRENDER was doing well in various markets but for whatever reason, it just didn't take off nationally.

Myself, I never heard it on the radio until 1981. A local DJ, Sunny Joe White, loved Diana and the Supremes. When news broke of her signing with RCA, he played SURRENDER and said "Diana made RCA SURRENDER those bucks!"

[BayouMotownMan]

I agree with all the comments here on this lp, which I think ranks among Ross's best solo lps. She is in prime voice and the album is more fluid having just one producer. My only complaint was, again like the first lp, there are too many reworkings of other people's recordings. When A&S did The Boss, all songs were new and patterned for Diana Ross. I think Side A of Surrender is quite powerful.

Despite one of her best vocals, I agree that Reach Out I'll Be There was a weak single. But Gordy ordered a remake of Ain't No Mountain which, up to that point had been Diana's only big hit. Nick Ashford remembered Gordy ordering this kind of production and he and Valerie were against it. But he was the boss. When this single tanked as The Supremes Nathan Jones rose to be a sizeable hit, Gordy knew he had a big problem. Ashford & Simpson were proven correct but they now wanted to concentrate on establishing Valerie as a soloist and then the two as duet performers. Yet another issue for Gordy.

As far as the lp not doing so well, Ross was pregnant and had just married someone other than Gordy. Despite Gordy's best efforts, Diana Ross's solo career was just not taking off as anticipated. She was nothing more than just another female artist on the music scene at this point. I think the public and radio programmers reacted quite negatively to her dumping the Supremes and threw support to the new group at Diana's expense.

Gordy put Ross into the dl while he re-considered how to promote her. He cemented the LSTB deal and with Suzanne dePasse Ross immersed herself into the life and music of Billie Holiday while she carried and later birthed Rhonda.

A release of I'm Still Waiting, which was an unexpected huge hit in Britain [[it was never considered for single release here) was thrown out in another desperate attempt to jumpstart her recording career. It too failed. So all releases were stopped while Ross and Gordy re-grouped and re-thought her future.

Gordy is a gambler and he banked heavily on LSTB. Ross did not let him down. Her brilliant performance of a heavily fictionalized script finally put Diana over the top and she was now in the same category as Streisand. Her record sales zoomed up with the soundtrack and the Touch Me In The Morning single and lp. Then Diana and Marvin. She was now established. Finally! And The Supremes were cast adrift, as it should have been according to Gordy. He was finished with the group.

[sup_fan]

i've mentioned many times on here that motown was in business to make money. not to create art or legacy. with DR that might not really be as true. Berry was trying to make her into the black Barbra but yet he was continually willing to release pablum in order to just make a buck. as someone mentioned above, the release schedule of her solo material was completely chaotic. nowhere near the thoughtful strategy applied to the DMF era.

and while not everything Barbra released was a masterpiece, most were more critically acclaimed than much of the sups or DR material. you'd think if he was focusing on Babs that he would have paid more attention to everything she was doing. and mimic it or take direct cues from the quality of her albums

[marybrewster]

Absolutely. And the single release schedules for EIE and Surrender were criminal. I think the debut album could have squeezed out one more single. Which song? I don't know. Then in early 71 EIE could be released, with "I'm Still Waiting" and maybe one more single from that. Surrender could have come out in late 71 and let Diana ride that into Lady Sings. I don't know what Motown was doing.

I think there was a tremendous panic at Motown; the biggest jewel in the crown wasn't shining as brightly as projected. I think they were trying EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING to get a hit.

Diana Ross #19
EIE reached #42
Diana! #46
Surrender #56

Reach Out and Touch #20
MOUNTAIN #1
Remember Me #16
Reach Out I'll Be There #29
Surrender #38
I'm Still Waiting #63

I bet Diana was shitteing in her Bob Mackie's with those numbers. Luckily Berry rolled the dice once last time with LADY.

CLEARLY not the numbers they were hoping for.

[sup_fan]

let's not forget that Berry gave into Diana's wishes and released Reach out and touch someone's hand as her debut single. no where near the introductory splash they were wanting. sure it's become one of her anthems but in spring of 70, it was pretty blah.

in the booklets from the EEs, Valerie mentions they wanted Mountain as the debut although i wonder if her memory is a bit foggy. i thought Mountain was one of the last tunes they recorded with her and so probably wouldn't have been ready to release in time. I know Berry considered releasing These Things. but she needed something new, not a rehash of Someday.

[reese]

let's not forget that Berry gave into Diana's wishes and released Reach out and touch someone's hand as her debut single. no where near the introductory splash they were wanting. sure it's become one of her anthems but in spring of 70, it was pretty blah.

in the booklets from the EEs, Valerie mentions they wanted Mountain as the debut although i wonder if her memory is a bit foggy. i thought Mountain was one of the last tunes they recorded with her and so probably wouldn't have been ready to release in time. I know Berry considered releasing These Things. but she needed something new, not a rehash of Someday.

Interestingly enough, in MOTOWN THE MUSICAL, Berry actually takes credit for releasing ROAT as Diana's debut. In the show, Diana even says "Is he out of his f**king mind?"

According to the expanded edition of her solo debut, ANMHE was the last track cut for the album, in March 1970. Nick Ashford mentioned that they wanted it to be the first single but Berry wanted them to make changes that they refused to do. It was only when dj's started playing it that he consented to release it as a single.

[jobeterob]

This is not among my favourite albums.

I remember when one of my friends heard Remember Me he thought it was another #1 - but that wasn’t the way it turned out. But it certainly is a fan favourite.

The Rolling Stone review of the album said the gem on the album was And If You See Him which I like and play more than Mountain or Remember Me. But if it was going to be a single I think it needed some reworking.

I’m always surprised by how much the real fans love this album.

[sup_fan]

This is not among my favourite albums.

I remember when one of my friends heard Remember Me he thought it was another #1 - but that wasn’t the way it turned out. But it certainly is a fan favourite.

The Rolling Stone review of the album said the gem on the album was And If You See Him which I like and play more than Mountain or Remember Me. But if it was going to be a single I think it needed some reworking.

I’m always surprised by how much the real fans love this album.

diana's vocal on AIYSH is great but there's something odd. it's not her performance but how the voice is produced. i don't know if they used a special effect on it or what.

[reese]

diana's vocal on AIYSH is great but there's something odd. it's not her performance but how the voice is produced. i don't know if they used a special effect on it or what.

I thought there might be moments where Diana is doubletracked on it. Whatever it is, I like the way it sounds.

[sup_fan]

I thought there might be moments where Diana is doubletracked on it. Whatever it is, I like the way it sounds.

ahhh yes that might be it!

[jobeterob]

I thought there might be moments where Diana is doubletracked on it. Whatever it is, I like the way it sounds.

I’m sure I read that it is double tracked

[marybrewster]

Most of Diana's solo records also relied on heavily background vocals, giving that "Supremes" sound, and in some cases, even used vocalists that were credited as DRATS records. You might as well just consider them DRATS releases. I know MOUNTAIN is often credited as "the Supremes".

[copley]

In the UK, things were much different!

Diana Ross #19 / UK #14
EIE reached #42 / UK #31
Diana! #46 / UK #43
Surrender #56 / UK #10 * Renamed 'I'm Still Waiting'

Reach Out and Touch #20 / UK #33
MOUNTAIN #1 / UK #6
Remember Me #16 / UK #7
Reach Out I'll Be There #29 / UK NR
Surrender #38 / UK #10
I'm Still Waiting #63 / UK #1 * was the follow up to 'Remember Me'.
Doobedood'ndoobe, Doobedood'ndoobe, Doobedood'ndoo US NR / UK #12 * was the follow up to 'Surrender'

She had 24 solo top 20 hits in the UK [[2 #1's) only 16 in the US [[5 #1's).

[rovereab]

ROIBT should never have been released as a A-side in my opinion. The way it was "hacked" to edit the LP track down was borderline laughable.

[Sotosound]

In the UK, ROIBT was released as the B-side of "I'm Still Waiting".

[rovereab]

In the UK, ROIBT was released as the B-side of "I'm Still Waiting".

I was thinking of the US release. There were many far superior songs on EIE that would have been a great B-side to ISW in the UK, e.g. My Place or Baby It's Love.

[sup_fan]

I was thinking of the US release. There were many far superior songs on EIE that would have been a great B-side to ISW in the UK, e.g. My Place or Baby It's Love.

and frankly both of those songs could have been relatively strong A sides too. Doobie suffers from an idiotic title but the song is pretty good. the original title was I Just Started Living or something like that. IMO they were just goofing around in the office and that story of Berry saying "hey - it'll at least capture people's attention and make them list to whatever a Doobiedoobiedo song would be." it was almost like a practical joke but one that got out of hand.

I'm still waiting, I just started living, my place and baby it's love could have all been solid songs but they all followed the massiveness of Mountain. they were just so different from Mountain and Mountain was so all-consuming that just about anything was going to falter

[rovereab]

and frankly both of those songs could have been relatively strong A sides too. Doobie suffers from an idiotic title but the song is pretty good. the original title was I Just Started Living or something like that. IMO they were just goofing around in the office and that story of Berry saying "hey - it'll at least capture people's attention and make them list to whatever a Doobiedoobiedo song would be." it was almost like a practical joke but one that got out of hand.

I'm still waiting, I just started living, my place and baby it's love could have all been solid songs but they all followed the massiveness of Mountain. they were just so different from Mountain and Mountain was so all-consuming that just about anything was going to falter

Perhaps the single buying public were seeking something other than an ANMHE rehash in the form of ROIBT? Remember Me and Surrender were excellent single choices but it might have been a case of something different being required. My Place would have been a great statement of where Diana was at the time. A lovely upbeat song.

[sup_fan]

i agree that an artist needs to change things up. they need to continue to reinvent themselves. on a whole, I think the EIE is pretty solid and i've mentioned several songs that could have been potential singles. but i don't see the EIE project as a reinvention. The whole TMITM one would qualify, diana 80, the boss, and a few others.

if the LSTB project had been moved up a year, that could have been a glorious follow up to Mountain. in the absence of such a big reinvention opportunity, i think the best option would be to try and build off of Mountain and just focus solely on the Surrender project

in the EE for EIE, Deke mentions that Berry was panicking that Diana wasn't launching the way they anticipated. Reach Out and Touch was a lukewarm hit and the parent album did pretty well but wasn't a #1 smash. so Berry got Deke to pull together the EIE project but needed it asap. Mountain was released in july and became a massive hit. EIE wasn't released until Nov. there was plenty of time to say "ok we panicked there for a moment but now we don't need EIE, let's stick with A&S" If EIE was released during the summer, it might make more sense. but Mountain released in July, was already in the Top 10 by Sept. A&S were already in the studios preparing the songs for Surrender.

[jobeterob]

We need to always be a little cautious. ROAT was #20 Billboard #10 Cashbox, 7 Soul and was a lukewarm hit or did not do well; Floy Joy was 16 Billboard, 16 Cashbox, 5 Soul and was one of many hits the 70’s Supremes had in 70 and 71. And Cashbox was more influenced by sales.

Just always depends on who we are talking about and what we are comparing to what.

[captainjames]

The EIE album was a bust for me and I always felt was a throwback because someone was not really paying attention or was too busy. When I heard "I Can't Give Back The Love I Feel for You" , I said that should have followed ANMHE. A&S had Diana talked at the intro which at the time was that mellow sexy voice she had with ANMHE and I could see the building up to the bridge to the ending if it had been longer, Especially around 2:10 of the song. Diana is almost screaming at the end of that song which I always said Dang she is singing that for someone. After that I would have went with Surrender and then Remember Me. I think whoever decided to pull "Baby I'll Come" was right to do so, the lyrics were good but it seemed at times the music was burying her.

[daviddh]

BG kept her off TV..
Then panicked her solo didn't take off
Supremes were off n running
EIE should have been held back to 72 and allowed Deke time to put together a better project
But as usual BG,was in a rush.
It was all or nothing.
Then in 1975. We got nothing

[thanxal]

I really enjoy Surrender. It is probably second only to Baby It's Me on my DR list. Thanks to this very interesting thread, I went back through and listened beginning to end. I don't recall liking Did You Read the Morning Paper previously but on this listen found it a bit catchy. Not a single, but good listening. I really couldn't easily identify anything else that was single quality.

I disagree with Ran here

So Surrender got the shaft.

Go re-read your paragraph. It wasn't Surrender that got the shaft...

P.S. So glad this isn't another thread crapping all over one Supreme or another and a real discussion of the MUSIC.

[lucky2012]

Surrender is probably one of my top 6 favorite DR albums, definitely in my top 10. But it had to grow on me in 1971 [52 years ago!]. The debut album had been impressive, and what could possibly [and reasonably] follow the magnificent ANMHE?

I was very disappointed by the hodge-podge EIE [except for I'm Still Waiting, My Place and Baby, It's Love], so I was glad that Ashford & Simpson were once again at the helm of Surrender. But on first [and first few] listens, I didn't find the songs, production and tone of the album very appealing. My main impression was that of excess, especially when most of the songs ended in crescendos, oddly lessening the emotional impact for me. The quieter, softer more reflective All The Befores, I'll Settle For You and most of And If You See Him and Reach Out I'll Be There were welcome relief from all the drama and angst.

Now, I appreciate the album as one of her best. I think it is her first complete true soul album. She proved she is not limited to being just the versatile Pop/Motown/R&B stylist.
I appreciated Reese's mention of the David Nathan interview in which Diana...

said that by the time she recorded it, she had been through some things in life. Also, she said she began to trust herself more as a singer.

[RanRan79]

We need to always be a little cautious. ROAT was #20 Billboard #10 Cashbox, 7 Soul and was a lukewarm hit or did not do well; Floy Joy was 16 Billboard, 16 Cashbox, 5 Soul and was one of many hits the 70’s Supremes had in 70 and 71. And Cashbox was more influenced by sales.

Just always depends on who we are talking about and what we are comparing to what.

It does depend on who we are talking about. Different artists can mean different expectations. The fact of the matter is that, as of 1970, Gordy had spent the last few years preparing Diana to emerge from the Supremes as this huge star who was good enough to make it on her own. There isn't anybody in this thread or on the moon who believes for one minute that when "Reach Out and Touch" stalled at #20 on the pop chart, that Gordy went "Yes! We have a winner!". Dude didn't even want to release the song as a single, certainly not the debut, but gave in to Diana's desire. I'm sure everyone involved with the record was glad to cash whatever checks came with those chart positions, but they had all, I'm sure, hoped for more. After all the time and effort that was put into Diana, those chart positions were not the pay off anyone was looking for.

On the other hand, by the time "Floy Joy" was released, the 70s Supremes had two back to back flops in "You Gotta Have Love" and "Touch". To then rebound with a top 20 pop charting, yes, that was success. In the long run, considering the group wouldn't score that high again on either the pop or r&b chart, makes the song noteworthy in the group's catalog.

Both songs were hits. Both songs were modest hits on one chart, big on another. But perspective definitely influences the way one would discuss the songs the way we dissect them. In the long run "Reach Out and Touch" has continued to endure, while I'm pretty sure the general public has all but forgotten "Floy Joy". One has to wonder, though, if "Reach Out" would have been forgotten also if Diana hadn't attached herself to it, making it a cornerstone of her performances for decades, ensuring that it left a lasting impression on the public. There's a chance had she left the song in 1970, the way that she left "Someday We'll Be Together" in 1969 [[yeah, yeah, she performed it for the Farewell show in Jan 1970, but y'all know what I mean), it too might have gone the way of "Floy Joy" in the public's memory.

[RanRan79]

I disagree with Ran here

Go re-read your paragraph. It wasn't Surrender that got the shaft...

I had to re-read it twice before I got what you are getting at. Silly wabbit. I would say both Diana and Surrender got the shaft, albeit different types.

P.S. So glad this isn't another thread crapping all over one Supreme or another and a real discussion of the MUSIC.

Give it time. It's swirling in the midst already if you look close enough.

[RanRan79]

IMO, it's so very unfortunate that Diana's 70s discography isn't full of A&S's productions. We're left questioning what might have been had HDH remained with Motown and continued working with the Supremes post "Forever Came Today". The chemistry between HDH and the group was a once in a lifetime experience. No one before or after HDH were really ever able to capture the magic of the Supremes, not the Clan, not Frank Wilson, not Smokey Robinson, not even Berry Gordy.

Likewise, Diana and Ashford and Simpson had this great thing going. I know some of y'all- a lot of y'all- dig Michael Masser and Diana, but for me a little of that stuff goes a long way. It's cool for the occasional single [[I really love "Touch Me In the Morning" and "I Thought It Took a Little Time", and I'm a big fan of "It's My Turn"). I think Masser had a good enough read on Diana to find some great songs, sometimes. I lack any faith in his ability to produce an entire album on her that wouldn't make me throw up.

I wish Gordy had done whatever he could to get the duo back on Diana's team for the follow up to the TMITM lp. I have to wonder if her hit making ability wouldn't have been so spotty if she had a consistent production team in A&S, much like how hit-able the Supremes were with HDH consistently at the helm of their singles.

[Ollie9]

In stark contrast to the rather lacklustre reception her music received in the USA, UK fans were lapping up everything she released. Such was her popularity at the time, almost anything released after “ I’m Still Waiting”, was likely to have gone top ten.


Surrender album top 10
Singles -
Ain’t No Mountain - 6
Remember Me - 7
Surrender [[single) 10
I’m Still Waiting - 1
Doobe Doo - 12

[Ollie9]

IMO, it's so very unfortunate that Diana's 70s discography isn't full of A&S's productions. We're left questioning what might have been had HDH remained with Motown and continued working with the Supremes post "Forever Came Today". The chemistry between HDH and the group was a once in a lifetime experience. No one before or after HDH were really ever able to capture the magic of the Supremes, not the Clan, not Frank Wilson, not Smokey Robinson, not even Berry Gordy.

Likewise, Diana and Ashford and Simpson had this great thing going. I know some of y'all- a lot of y'all- dig Michael Masser and Diana, but for me a little of that stuff goes a long way. It's cool for the occasional single [[I really love "Touch Me In the Morning" and "I Thought It Took a Little Time", and I'm a big fan of "It's My Turn"). I think Masser had a good enough read on Diana to find some great songs, sometimes. I lack any faith in his ability to produce an entire album on her that wouldn't make me throw up.

I wish Gordy had done whatever he could to get the duo back on Diana's team for the follow up to the TMITM lp. I have to wonder if her hit making ability wouldn't have been so spotty if she had a consistent production team in A&S, much like how hit-able the Supremes were with HDH consistently at the helm of their singles.

Perhaps if “Remember Me”, “Surrender” and subsequent album had sold better in the USA that might have been the case.
I think her career lost momentum with the release of the “Live” album and LTISH, especially after all that had been achieved with LSTB and Touch Me In The Morning”.
Even her film career had been put on ice.

[RanRan79]

Perhaps if “Remember Me”, “Surrender” and subsequent album had sold better in the USA that might have been the case.
I think her career lost momentum with the release of the “Live” album and LTISH, especially after all that had been achieved with LSTB and Touch Me In The Morning”.
Even her film career had been put on ice.

I'm not sure the live album was an issue, but LTISH certainly was. I just don't understand what Motown was thinking, both with Diana and with the Supremes. There just often seemed to be no rhyme or reason for the releases. Just doing any ole thing.

[thanxal]

I'm not sure the live album was an issue, but LTISH certainly was. I just don't understand what Motown was thinking, both with Diana and with the Supremes. There just often seemed to be no rhyme or reason for the releases. Just doing any ole thing.

I've read a lot from a lot of people on the forum with a very similar sentiment. I submit that what we saw in about 1968 through 72 is fairly typical when a group or a popular type of music reaches its zenith... growth slows, interest shifts, and there is a scramble to figure out what to do. It can look more or less desperate, but it usually ends up looking erratic. I'm sure the forum members will name 100 different acts that did weird things in order to stay in the public eye [[one of the most bizarre in my mind is Ethel Merman's disco album), but I think what we see in Motown maybe as early as 1968 but certainly by 1970-71 was a realization that the times had changed and declining sales were the future. There didn't seem to be a clear path, because likely, there wasn't one. It's very hard when you realize you're not the "in" crowd and that they have moved on, having established their own "new" sound. Even in the glory days for physical media, the mature audience was a distant second behind the youth market.

It was exceptionally hard, for instance, for the youth stars of the hot jazz/ big band era of the late 30s and early 40s to reinvent themselves in the 1950s. Ella was still mildly popular, but never had a hit record throughout the 50s and 60s. All the big bands faded quickly...Goodman had zilch, Artie Shaw took up painting, nor did any of the singers, with the rare exception of Sinatra, have any success. Even those who did manage to reinvent themselves, like Louis Prima and his Vegas lounge act, only had marginal success with their reinvented image.

I would argue that 1970 was that turning point for just about every Motown act and even the "Motown Sound". It was fading fast. Nothing anyone could do about it, except milk it until it died.

[sup_fan]

IMO, it's so very unfortunate that Diana's 70s discography isn't full of A&S's productions. We're left questioning what might have been had HDH remained with Motown and continued working with the Supremes post "Forever Came Today". The chemistry between HDH and the group was a once in a lifetime experience. No one before or after HDH were really ever able to capture the magic of the Supremes, not the Clan, not Frank Wilson, not Smokey Robinson, not even Berry Gordy.

Likewise, Diana and Ashford and Simpson had this great thing going. I know some of y'all- a lot of y'all- dig Michael Masser and Diana, but for me a little of that stuff goes a long way. It's cool for the occasional single [[I really love "Touch Me In the Morning" and "I Thought It Took a Little Time", and I'm a big fan of "It's My Turn"). I think Masser had a good enough read on Diana to find some great songs, sometimes. I lack any faith in his ability to produce an entire album on her that wouldn't make me throw up.

I wish Gordy had done whatever he could to get the duo back on Diana's team for the follow up to the TMITM lp. I have to wonder if her hit making ability wouldn't have been so spotty if she had a consistent production team in A&S, much like how hit-able the Supremes were with HDH consistently at the helm of their singles.

you're absolutely right that the combo of A&S and D was magic. all three of their albums together are magnificent and cornerstones of her career. they just "got" each other. they knew how to work her voice to be simply irresistible and how to balance soul, gospel, pop and r&b

masser is totally different. but he too knew exactly what to do with her voice. his approach seems to be more symphonic. these huge incredibly lush orchestral backing tracks, soaring backing vocals and masterful leads by Diana. I do think it's unfortunate that he never really got to do a full lp with her. doing so would have required him to explore more range. we have glimpses along the way of what he might do with more pop arrangements but nothing really satisfying. it would be interesting to have heard a real pop song with him and diana or a real dance track.

[sansradio]

I've read a lot from a lot of people on the forum with a very similar sentiment. I submit that what we saw in about 1968 through 72 is fairly typical when a group or a popular type of music reaches its zenith... growth slows, interest shifts, and there is a scramble to figure out what to do. It can look more or less desperate, but it usually ends up looking erratic. I'm sure the forum members will name 100 different acts that did weird things in order to stay in the public eye [[one of the most bizarre in my mind is Ethel Merman's disco album), but I think what we see in Motown maybe as early as 1968 but certainly by 1970-71 was a realization that the times had changed and declining sales were the future. There didn't seem to be a clear path, because likely, there wasn't one. It's very hard when you realize you're not the "in" crowd and that they have moved on, having established their own "new" sound. Even in the glory days for physical media, the mature audience was a distant second behind the youth market.

It was exceptionally hard, for instance, for the youth stars of the hot jazz/ big band era of the late 30s and early 40s to reinvent themselves in the 1950s. Ella was still mildly popular, but never had a hit record throughout the 50s and 60s. All the big bands faded quickly...Goodman had zilch, Artie Shaw took up painting, nor did any of the singers, with the rare exception of Sinatra, have any success. Even those who did manage to reinvent themselves, like Louis Prima and his Vegas lounge act, only had marginal success with their reinvented image.

I would argue that 1970 was that turning point for just about every Motown act and even the "Motown Sound". It was fading fast. Nothing anyone could do about it, except milk it until it died.

Great points. Don't forget that Ella did have a Top 30 pop/Top 10 R&B hit with "Mack the Knife" in 1960, but it was the exception that proves your point.

[RanRan79]

I've read a lot from a lot of people on the forum with a very similar sentiment. I submit that what we saw in about 1968 through 72 is fairly typical when a group or a popular type of music reaches its zenith... growth slows, interest shifts, and there is a scramble to figure out what to do. It can look more or less desperate, but it usually ends up looking erratic. I'm sure the forum members will name 100 different acts that did weird things in order to stay in the public eye [[one of the most bizarre in my mind is Ethel Merman's disco album), but I think what we see in Motown maybe as early as 1968 but certainly by 1970-71 was a realization that the times had changed and declining sales were the future. There didn't seem to be a clear path, because likely, there wasn't one. It's very hard when you realize you're not the "in" crowd and that they have moved on, having established their own "new" sound. Even in the glory days for physical media, the mature audience was a distant second behind the youth market.

It was exceptionally hard, for instance, for the youth stars of the hot jazz/ big band era of the late 30s and early 40s to reinvent themselves in the 1950s. Ella was still mildly popular, but never had a hit record throughout the 50s and 60s. All the big bands faded quickly...Goodman had zilch, Artie Shaw took up painting, nor did any of the singers, with the rare exception of Sinatra, have any success. Even those who did manage to reinvent themselves, like Louis Prima and his Vegas lounge act, only had marginal success with their reinvented image.

I would argue that 1970 was that turning point for just about every Motown act and even the "Motown Sound". It was fading fast. Nothing anyone could do about it, except milk it until it died.

I can see the truth in this. But considering that, particularly in Diana's case, it was hit-flop-flop-flop-hit-flop-flop-flop-and repeat, there was still gas in the tank and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks was just horrible business.

[thanxal]

I can see the truth in this. But considering that, particularly in Diana's case, it was hit-flop-flop-flop-hit-flop-flop-flop-and repeat, there was still gas in the tank and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks was just horrible business.

True, but that's often what happens once the hit machine cools. Some artists, like Diana, work hard and have comebacks, but most are lucky to get even one more hit. Not that I think she was spent by any means, but certainly the labels are often quite happy to drop them and hop on the next wave. Diana's post Motown successes were more the exception than the rule. I think Motown [[Berry) was likely befuddled at how quickly the empire splintered and simply didn't know how to regain the momentum - thus the erratic, back and forth. Their formula for hits stopped working and it seemed like they didn't know what to do.

[midnightman]

What hurt the album is Motown having Diana record two albums at the same time. Berry had Diana work with Deke Richards for the album that became Everything Is Everything but also had A&S back in the studio for what turned out to be Surrender.

"Remember Me" from Surrender won over being released as a single in late 1970 over whatever was gonna be picked for Everything Is Everything though EIE came out first. As a result, many casual buyers were confused as to what to purchase and since "Remember Me" was not on EIE, that made most turn away from that album. I never seen anyone discuss the confusion with that.

Remember Me ended up being a modest hit [[16) but never got promoted pass the Diana TV special [[that I can recall). And then when Surrender was FINALLY released, then Motown's UK department [[Tamla Motown) found themselves having a smash with I'm Still Waiting for EIE in the country so the US thought, like it had done with Tears of a Clown, they could do the same with ISW and instead of that, America responded to it with a big THUD [[63).

And this was in 1971: the year of What's Going On so to have that out in the middle of Motown trying to find a follow-up number one for Diana and struggling had to have been a pain in the butt for everyone involved [[Berry, Diana, Motown staff). And then Surrender suffered as a result due to them releasing a song that was basically a redux of Ain't No Mountain High Enough [[Reach Out I'll Be There) and a third song [[Surrender) and that only went as high as 29 and 38 respectively, while the album itself suffered in sales along with EIE.

Another thing that hurt was Diana was not on TV much in that period unless she had a TV special. In 1971, celebrities were starting to have their own variety series while the ones Diana performed on during her Supremes era like Ed Sullivan and The Hollywood Palace was getting canceled. Diana spent much of 1970-71 performing in Vegas before she took the role for Lady Sings the Blues. She didn't have a proper tour until 1973 when she promoted Touch Me in the Morning [[which I could argue was her first hit album as a solo act since it reached number 5).

Also she became a mother: had Rhonda in August 1971. Then she's recording the duet album with Marvin Gaye and the Billie Holiday/LSTB sessions in 71-72.

The early '70s, at least when it came to her music career, was NOT a good time if your name was Diana Ross.

[midnightman]

BG kept her off TV..
Then panicked her solo didn't take off
Supremes were off n running
EIE should have been held back to 72 and allowed Deke time to put together a better project
But as usual BG,was in a rush.
It was all or nothing.
Then in 1975. We got nothing

The way Motown handled her solo output was atrocious, I think we should finally admit to this.

Motown was already not the same company it once was when the Supremes, Four Tops and Temptations were churning out the hits. Its two biggest solo acts ever were Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye and they were branching into independent productions that transformed them into icons but practically was the beginning of the end of the "Motown Sound".

I think a main problem was that Motown didn't know what to do with a post-Supremes Diana. So they basically had her try... anything. Diana really never had a period where she had a hot streak until the early '80s but before then, it ebbed and flowed: you had a period where she had a smash and then followed by either a modest hit or a straight up flop. Compared to Aretha, who was having a smash every year until 1973, Diana was lucky to even have a number one in the early going.

[midnightman]

It does depend on who we are talking about. Different artists can mean different expectations. The fact of the matter is that, as of 1970, Gordy had spent the last few years preparing Diana to emerge from the Supremes as this huge star who was good enough to make it on her own. There isn't anybody in this thread or on the moon who believes for one minute that when "Reach Out and Touch" stalled at #20 on the pop chart, that Gordy went "Yes! We have a winner!". Dude didn't even want to release the song as a single, certainly not the debut, but gave in to Diana's desire. I'm sure everyone involved with the record was glad to cash whatever checks came with those chart positions, but they had all, I'm sure, hoped for more. After all the time and effort that was put into Diana, those chart positions were not the pay off anyone was looking for.

On the other hand, by the time "Floy Joy" was released, the 70s Supremes had two back to back flops in "You Gotta Have Love" and "Touch". To then rebound with a top 20 pop charting, yes, that was success. In the long run, considering the group wouldn't score that high again on either the pop or r&b chart, makes the song noteworthy in the group's catalog.

Both songs were hits. Both songs were modest hits on one chart, big on another. But perspective definitely influences the way one would discuss the songs the way we dissect them. In the long run "Reach Out and Touch" has continued to endure, while I'm pretty sure the general public has all but forgotten "Floy Joy". One has to wonder, though, if "Reach Out" would have been forgotten also if Diana hadn't attached herself to it, making it a cornerstone of her performances for decades, ensuring that it left a lasting impression on the public. There's a chance had she left the song in 1970, the way that she left "Someday We'll Be Together" in 1969 [[yeah, yeah, she performed it for the Farewell show in Jan 1970, but y'all know what I mean), it too might have gone the way of "Floy Joy" in the public's memory.

Reach Out has endured, not because of the song itself, but because Diana herself kept having it in her shows later on. It became her showstopper for so many years, the moment she comes off the stage to get people to first sing along to it and then by her command have everyone in the audience singing along to it and swaying back and forth with their arms over it. Had she not done that, ROAT could've easily been in the forgettable pile along with Floy Joy. So give credit to Miss Ross for having the genius to do something to make that song memorable despite it not being a huge seller.

[midnightman]

Absolutely. And the single release schedules for EIE and Surrender were criminal. I think the debut album could have squeezed out one more single. Which song? I don't know. Then in early 71 EIE could be released, with "I'm Still Waiting" and maybe one more single from that. Surrender could have come out in late 71 and let Diana ride that into Lady Sings. I don't know what Motown was doing.

The debut didn't have another song that screamed HIT except for ANMHE. It's a fine album [[like Surrender) but nothing was saying "I can see this going top five". It was never about artistry when it came to Diana Ross, they were all about the hits. The fact ANMHE was the last song to be recorded for the debut and Berry struggling to find a leading single for the album is telling on his thought process. I mean this is the same man who told Marvin he didn't have any hits with the What's Going On album and yet Marvin became the first solo act to branch out three top ten POP singles off a single album. So yeah I imagine Berry panicked, which is why he had Diana with Deke to rush out an album that he ended up abandoning along with the Surrender album. Just a mess. Even Touch Me... only yielded the title track because everything else sounded more album oriented than "hit". Surrender works as an album but not as an album "full of hits", which is what Berry's goal was for Diana Ross.

[midnightman]

IMO, it's so very unfortunate that Diana's 70s discography isn't full of A&S's productions. We're left questioning what might have been had HDH remained with Motown and continued working with the Supremes post "Forever Came Today". The chemistry between HDH and the group was a once in a lifetime experience. No one before or after HDH were really ever able to capture the magic of the Supremes, not the Clan, not Frank Wilson, not Smokey Robinson, not even Berry Gordy.

Likewise, Diana and Ashford and Simpson had this great thing going. I know some of y'all- a lot of y'all- dig Michael Masser and Diana, but for me a little of that stuff goes a long way. It's cool for the occasional single [[I really love "Touch Me In the Morning" and "I Thought It Took a Little Time", and I'm a big fan of "It's My Turn"). I think Masser had a good enough read on Diana to find some great songs, sometimes. I lack any faith in his ability to produce an entire album on her that wouldn't make me throw up.

I wish Gordy had done whatever he could to get the duo back on Diana's team for the follow up to the TMITM lp. I have to wonder if her hit making ability wouldn't have been so spotty if she had a consistent production team in A&S, much like how hit-able the Supremes were with HDH consistently at the helm of their singles.

Diana had far more chemistry with A&S than she did with Masser [[by contrast, Whitney had a greater working relationship with Masser). Diana's sound only worked with certain producers who knew exactly what to do with her [[HDH during the Supremes era, A&S during the Motown period, Chic but only that once and last Masser, though you could argue it was a mixed bag there). Other producers tried it but they didn't quite capture anything worthwhile.