IMO why Mary Wilson was not made lead singer in the Supremes--Enjoy yourself

[sup_fan]

In listening to Enjoy Yourself, Mary sounds alright. Nothing special but fine. Too close to the mic but certainly not shrill or incompetent. I think the Flo not knowing her part or being too bashful is rehearsed bit of business given that Diana then proceeds to do the part Flo was supposed to do. But the whole bit is a misfire. In fact that's the problem with Enjoy Yourself--the song. It's not a song for the ages to say the least. Even the audience doesn't seem thrilled that this old song is being performed.

That's why Copa is the least favorite of the 3 Supremes official live albums. The set list is often blatant pandering to what they think the audience wants to hear. And the songs all seem to emphasize a point that The Supremes aren't threatening, that they're not civil rights protestors or freedom riders on stage that night to make the comfortable feel uncomforable. They are there to entertain, to put on a happy face, make someone happy and enjoy themselves as they listen to the group sing songs associated with Al Jolson, Jimmy Durante, Dean Martin, and Judy Garland. The Sam Cooke medley does dip its toes into something that could be a tad edgy for this audience, but the intro makes it clear they are saluting a "show biz" legend, the Copa side of Sam Cooke, not the Apollo and chitlin circuit side of Sam Cooke. And the little number the Supremes sing as intro to perform their own hits is also cringe. Plus on the stage patter Diana sounds over rehearsed and/or worried that if she makes a mistake Berry will ream her out after the show. She doesn't sound relaxed or natural in many of her stage patter moments. Fortunately by Talk of the Town and Farewell shows the set list was much better and Diana was very much at ease in her performance and stage patter.

i think you're 100% right that the set list was pandering because that's exactly what they set out to do. the girls had already been doing tunes like Anyone With A Heart, People, etc. They'd recorded the C&W material too so their versatility was already established. But they were one of the very first pop groups to play at a club like The Copa. plus being black it was even MORE of a milestone. because they were a "rock and roll group" and black, Berry, Gil and the others all thought they needed to go extra with the MOR. so show that these three beautiful and talented girls were NOT a threat, that they WERE right in calling themselves "the supremes". that they DID deserve to play The Copa.

and it worked. the audience reaction was overwhelming as were the reviews.

now does that mean they could NOT have been successful if they went in with a more r&b or rock and roll set list? maybe, maybe not. of course we'll never know now. But they did all of their own 5 number ones plus the Sam Cooke medley. yeah Sam was a crooner but he was also big on the pop charts. so that material was more like their own versus Somewhere or Make Someone Happy.

beyond their hits and the SC medley, they did a comedy number or two [[Queen and/or Enjoy), a couple of big ballads [[Somewhere, Make someone happy), some MOR [[Boy from Ipanema, Rock a bye), showtunes [[Happy Face, I am woman, tonight).

[captainjames]

I must be tone deaf or maybe not as critical as some but Mary sounds fine to me on Enjoy Yourself. It wasn't a complete lead into a song and it was one of those songs to try and involve the audience. Diana was a little hoarse but that was because she was trying to give 100% under Gordy's strong arm and Flo may have been recovering from an Illness. I remember reading and hearing things about these shows about 45 years ago but have forgotten all of what was going on. When the show finally made it to vinyl I believe the song never made the cut along with a couple of others.

[Boogiedown]

I'm curious as to what writing a song to suit Diana's voice means ??? Did HDH say they did that .....and in what way?

[RanRan79]

HDH were also crafting their songs specifically for Diana's voice. No i can't hear M or F doing Come See About Me, You Can't Hurry Love, Baby Love, Reflections or I Hear A Symphony. but at the same time i can't hear Martha, Wanda, Gladys K or Gladys H, Ann Bogan, Blinky doing them either.

I believe that was the case for most of the hits, that the guys were trying to come up with stuff that fit the Supremes, Diana in particular. It would be interesting if anyone could come up with a list of which- if any- of the group's Flo era hits were originally assigned to someone else.

I can hear Mary doing "Baby Love" and doing it very well. I think there's a chance she could have pulled off "Symphony" as well.

I believe Florence, Martha, Gladys Knight and Ann Bogan would have rocked the stank off "You Can't Hurry Love", which Diana tore up herself.

I definitely can hear Wanda doing "Reflections" and doing it justice.

It's just often so very difficult to envision anyone besides the original singers doing legendary songs because they've usually put so much of themselves into the recording, that to remove them and replace with someone else, might make it a whole other song, if that makes. Diana's leads on these songs often come across as irreplaceable, as crazy as if someone suggested the Funk Brothers be replaced with some other band.

[sup_fan]

I'm curious as to what writing a song to suit Diana's voice means ??? Did HDH say they did that .....and in what way?

a producer and a writer might write a song with specific artist in mind. they understand the singer's voice. what works well with that person. what might be outside of either their vocal range or their styles.

HDH wrote Heatwave for Martha and Baby Love for Diana. i think those are perfect examples of very different songs that were fitting matched to the original artists that sang them.

[sup_fan]

I believe that was the case for most of the hits, that the guys were trying to come up with stuff that fit the Supremes, Diana in particular. It would be interesting if anyone could come up with a list of which- if any- of the group's Flo era hits were originally assigned to someone else.

I can hear Mary doing "Baby Love" and doing it very well. I think there's a chance she could have pulled off "Symphony" as well.

I believe Florence, Martha, Gladys Knight and Ann Bogan would have rocked the stank off "You Can't Hurry Love", which Diana tore up herself.

I definitely can hear Wanda doing "Reflections" and doing it justice.

It's just often so very difficult to envision anyone besides the original singers doing legendary songs because they've usually put so much of themselves into the recording, that to remove them and replace with someone else, might make it a whole other song, if that makes. Diana's leads on these songs often come across as irreplaceable, as crazy as if someone suggested the Funk Brothers be replaced with some other band.

i don't think any of the girls' hits were ever earmarked originally for another artist. WDOLG, BL, CSAM, Stop and BIMAA were all absolutely crafted for the girls. same with symphony, ICHL, YKMHO, LIHANYG, Happening, Reflections. there MIGHT be some chance that Itching was a tune they might have considered doing with Martha. same with Going Down Third Time.

there are a lot of songs intended for the Sups that they either didn't get to record or if they did, it was passed on.

One Way Out - by MRATV
Standing in the Shadows of Love
Leave if in the hands of love - MRATV
Old Love - tops
I'll turn to stone
this old heart of mine - isley bros
heaven must have sent you - the elgins
seeing is believing - marvellettes
sunshine days - marvellettes
uptown - marvellettes
standing ovation - MRATV

[Boogiedown]

OKay , but...


more specifically , realizing its hard to argue that she nailed it, what would it be about BABY LOVE that so suits Diana Ross specifically? As with all the Supremes hits? Or HEATWAVE for Martha ... each of them couldn't have effectively sang the other's ??

Thelma Houston nailed DON'T LEAVE ME ...but the song was brought in and intended with Diana Ross in mind.

Also wasn't the pattern at Motown to write a song and then get at least thirty artists to record a version ....

[Boogiedown]

I've re-worded an earlier point I deleted to say it this way :

So HDH were writing Supremes songs for specifically Diana Ross and only Diana Ross to sing from day one ?

The other two were never given even a chance then.

[Circa 1824]

It is the World Series, and WE ARE WINNING. Do you really want to make changes?

[sup_fan]

OKay , but...


more specifically , realizing its hard to argue that she nailed it, what would it be about BABY LOVE that so suits Diana Ross specifically? As with all the Supremes hits? Or HEATWAVE for Martha ... each of them couldn't have effectively sang the other's ??

Thelma Houston nailed DON'T LEAVE ME ...but the song was brought in and intended with Diana Ross in mind.

Also wasn't the pattern at Motown to write a song and then get at least thirty artists to record a version ....

on the Tammie Terrell anthology cds, there's a brief part where they include a few live tracks, including a medley where she sings songs by some of her fav singers. Tammie is wonderful on What a Difference A Day Makes. but on Baby Love she does a fair job of impersonating Diana but it's more novelty than anything else.

or compare Baby Love live on TCB with Diana to Baby Love on any of the 70s bootleg live sets.

every singer has techniques, sound, style, etc that is unique to them. Diana's nasality could certain come across as pinched or strained [[think of some of the early Meet The Sup tracks). but by the time they were doing WDOLG and BL, she had developed her unique sound.

so yes, the writers could almost "hear" diana singing this song ahead of time and how good it would be. they knew how her voice could do certain things and how she'd interpret it.

as you mentioned sometimes a song would start with 1 singer but then they'd try others on it. there's no doubt in my mind that Diana would have totally mastered Don't Leave Me This Way but it would have been very different from the released version. it would have been a great dance track still and probably done very well too. maybe it too would be #1. but it wouldn't have had the gospel element to it.

[sup_fan]

I've re-worded an earlier point I deleted to say it this way :

So HDH were writing Supremes songs for specifically Diana Ross and only Diana Ross to sing from day one ?

The other two were never given even a chance then.

if you have a winning formula, why change it? motown was in business of making money, not attempting to create art to last generations. there could have been some executive direction from Berry and sr management to focus on Diana but the money also dictated that. HDH made TONS of money from the sup hits so why would they want to mess with that?

and again, the motown label was focusing on pop tunes. songs with strong crossover appeal. they weren't singing the blues, they weren't doing jazz. and diana was the most commercial sounding voice.

[Boogiedown]

It is the World Series, and WE ARE WINNING. Do you really want to make changes?

Yes right. But why limit your team to only one player that's hitting the home runs??

[Boogiedown]

if you have a winning formula, why change it? motown was in business of making money, not attempting to create art to last generations. there could have been some executive direction from Berry and sr management to focus on Diana but the money also dictated that. HDH made TONS of money from the sup hits so why would they want to mess with that?

and again, the motown label was focusing on pop tunes. songs with strong crossover appeal. they weren't singing the blues, they weren't doing jazz. and diana was the most commercial sounding voice.

I think, what I hear in this Copa piece , is an audience hungry for a Supremes show rather than a Diana Ross oh, and here are The Supremes show. To toss a bone at Mary and have her sing three or four lines .....why bother?? BUT if the group took turns on their leads , became 3 distinct singers , especially on the hits, then there would have been more value to the group concept. They were trying to create this nightclub act and it fell too much on Diana's shoulders imo.
At some point I think it became evident that the group thing was more of a bother, with the supporting cast unable [?] to rise to the occasion of sharing up-front stage performing ....and then with illness, infighting etc.. .... Diana might just as well be on her own.

It seems like the live act was considered by Berry to be just as important [even more important?] to the act's success as were the records , but it was hard to translate it into a "Supremes" show that featured the three.


added: yes they were aiming at a broader audience , and one that went even beyond pop....hence the standards and covers . I suspect Berry knew they would out-age their young America fan base that was buying their records ....then what?

Interesting .... when you consider when Berry planned what Diana should use as a vehicle in a movie, it would be by using the music of Billie Holiday .....hardly a pop sound ....

[sup_fan]

I think, what I hear in this Copa piece , is an audience hungry for a Supremes show rather than a Diana Ross oh, and here are The Supremes show. To toss a bone at Mary and have her sing three or four lines .....why bother?? BUT if the group took turns on their leads , became 3 distinct singers , especially on the hits, then there would have been more value to the group concept. They were trying to create this nightclub act and it fell too much on Diana's shoulders imo.
At some point I think it became evident that the group thing was more of a bother, with the supporting cast unable [?] to rise to the occasion of sharing up-front stage performing ....and then with illness, infighting etc.. .... Diana might just as well be on her own.

It seems like the live act was considered by Berry to be just as important [even more important?] to the act's success as were the records , but it was hard to translate it into a "Supremes" show that featured the three.


added: yes they were aiming at a broader audience , and one that went even beyond pop....hence the standards and covers . I suspect Berry knew they would out-age their young America fan base that was buying their records ....then what?

Interesting .... when you consider when Berry planned what Diana should use as a vehicle in a movie, it would be by using the music of Billie Holiday .....hardly a pop figure ....

you're definitely right that in the live show, M and F were an integral part. the original supremes were a hit not only because of diana's unique leads on WDOLG and other tunes but also because the group as a whole was highly engaging and distinctive. if you look at clips of other groups from the era, sometimes the lead singer is visually engaged or exciting but often the backups are pretty blank and anonymous. they singers have perfectly fine voices but are just lacking "it" Well M, D and F all had "it" and so on stage they really worked their personalities and voices. the Roostertail show is really a glorious highlight of the group at it's DMF prime. they're much more assured than on the Copa 65 show, you can hear M and F more, they do at least include People for M and F to sing.

America initially fell in love with 3 supremes. the group as a whole was magical. it's just that as time went on, Diana grew and expanded. her talent grew like a Concorde supersonic jet while M and F were more like a boeing 747 jet. all are great but Diana just emerged more. that could be because she was more talented, could be she worked harder, could be because more opportunities to learn and grow were given to her. probably all of the above.

once it became DRATS, it was becoming more "The Diana Ross Show" and that was their intent. it was to develop a launching pad for DR to go solo

[sup_fan]

i think the argument can certainly be made "how much did DR need in order to launch her solo career?" in TCB the original plan was to have each girl do 1 line in Mrs Robinson. for some reason mary and diana did their lines but diana and cindy did Cindy's line TOGETHER! for some weird reason.

giving M and F [[and later C) bits and pieces of the show IMO does not diminish Diana's role. her talent and stage presence were so dynamic that she was always going to shine. to keep some of the integrity of the group intact wouldn't have inhibited the ability to launch Diana.

also fans and writers have mentioned that as the DRATS era continued, there was some negative perception towards Diana because M and C were becoming more and more of the background scenery. and both were still very popular with fans. so it started to look a bit too blatant on pushing Diana and so people were saying "hey what about the other two??"

[Boogiedown]

^that all makes sense^

As to HDH writing specifically for Diana Ross , I'm still not convinced that what they did with her tunes was that far from the music they were providing others like The Four Tops ....except keeping in mind hers is from a female perspective.

Their writing style was not limited to the Supremos or specific to them imo.

Rather I think it's Diana's ability to deliver that makes this music they provide as "hers." She has the distinctive touch that translates into her owning it.

I say that because Diana does that throughout her successes , no matter who the writers and there were many ...A&S, Chic, Maser Ritchie etc...

Whereas HDH were unable to duplicate that run of hits with most others even when they were at the helm entirely on their own labels. They couldn't sustain hits for any of their acts they were writing for at Invictus no matter how tailor made for them their writing was....

[Circa 1824]

Yes right. But why limit your team to only one player that's hitting the home runs??

Because the others ain’t home run hitters.

[sup_fan]

^that all makes sense^

As to HDH writing specifically for Diana Ross , I'm still not convinced that what they did with her tunes was that far from the music they were providing others like The Four Tops ....except keeping in mind hers is from a female perspective.

Their writing style was not limited to the Supremos or specific to them imo.

Rather I think it's Diana's ability to deliver that makes this music they provide as "hers." She has the distinctive touch that translates into her owning it.

I say that because Diana does that throughout her successes , no matter who the writers and there were many ...A&S, Chic, Maser Ritchie etc...

Whereas HDH were unable to duplicate that run of hits with most others even when they were at the helm entirely on their own labels. They couldn't sustain hits for any of their acts they were writing for at Invictus no matter how tailor made for them their writing was....

i don't think it's that they were thinking they were writing ONLY for Diana or Levi. yes they were definitely still producing other acts. I think what would happen is they were working on a zillion times simultaneously. maybe a little snippet of a melody was lingering in their heads and they were working it to see how it might evolve. maybe a phrase or two was going round and round and they were playing around with it. the songs, lyrics, melodies were all probably in a constant state of evolution. when Diana or Levi or whomever recorded it, it might be only a fraction of the song that is done. the strings might come later, additional instrumentation. the backing vocals might not be done yet. so what Diana heard while recording would most likely be wildly different than what was actually waxed on the record. it's just that HDH had something IN MIND. they weren't trained musicians themselves - they were going off of feeling. and experimenting.

as they experimented, they might have tested switching from one group to another. or maybe they felt "this song is great - i'd like to try it on the sups but hey, they're out on tour. so let's use Martha"

we've all heard the various stories of the origins of WDOLG. once it was a hit, HDH were pulled from many of their other assignments in order to work full time on coming up with more similar tunes for the Sups. they immediately did CSAM and then they did Baby Love version 1. but then BL got a total redo for the released version.

by then the Sups were the #1 act and HDH was on fire. Stop and BIMAA were evolutions of the sup sound as HDH worked to innovate.

then Symphony was a specific attempt to regain the #1 spot. because Heartaches stalled at 11, the HDH team was worried Motown might be thinking "well that was a great run but now it's time to move the girls onto another producer". but they came back with a hit that was specifically written for diana and the girls

then in 66 both My World and Itching failed to go #1, Berry pushed for a hit and they came up with both YCHL and YKMHO. supposedly YCHL was inspired by CSAM. and Quality Control insisted it be released first.

so you can see that many of the biggest hits were written specifically for the group, often because they needed to have a sure-fire #1 song.

[after you]

They where not written for the group your statement makes absolutely no sense Diana Ross sang those songs it was her voice no matter what so make such a claim is horse poo

[jobucats]

They where not written for the group your statement makes absolutely no sense Diana Ross sang those songs it was her voice no matter what so make such a claim is horse poo

I don't understand this comment. Is it one statement/sentence or several? Thanks. I enjoy the different viewpoints.

[marybrewster]

To reel this back in to Mary's performance of "Enjoy Yourself", while every angle of why Mary sounds erratic, distorted, and too close to the microphone, one that's yet to be explored is: wasn't it true that Mary and Flo's microphones were always turned down, to give Diana that "lead" sound, and M&F that "background" sound? So if that's the case, unless the sound wo/man is able to quickly adjust volume levels [[I don't know what technology was available in 1965/1966) wouldn't Mary, who now has a lead line or a lead vocal in the midst of a song, now have to adjust her own singing voice; that much closer to the mic, that much louder? Which would be unnatural for ANY singer at one level to now compensate at another.....which is why she may come across the way she sounds?

I personally don't hear anything as awful as discribed and discussed above. There are some that are NEVER going to even remotely like Mary's voice regardless if it was spewing out rainbows.

[Boogiedown]

Because the others ain’t home run hitters.

oh my !
But we really don't know that since they weren't given even a turn at bat.