IMO why Mary Wilson was not made lead singer in the Supremes--Enjoy yourself

**BobbyC** · 10-20-2023, 03:31 PM

I'm not trying to pee on anyone's opinion about Mary Wilson, but I just heard the live version of Enjoy Yourself for the first time. I was shocked at how bad these couple of lines were!!! Mary is clearly reaching for notes she doesn't come close to hitting. The breathing is all wrong! How Berry even allowed this solo on a recording is shocking to me.

This is the same woman who did such a fantastic job on The Tears, Baby Don't Go, Sunset, and others? I can't believe it, frankly. Why was Mary so erratic, vocally, back then? Was it smoking? Cocaine, which she admitted to using? Was it lack of effort? Can anyone explain this?

Hell, I can't sing and even when I do karaoke, I practice the song before I jump up on that stage! Did Mary not practice Enjoy yourself?

**RanRan79** · 10-20-2023, 04:09 PM

This was, IMO, Mary at her vocal worst. I had never heard her sound so out of place. I really don't care for her vocal on "Come and Get These Memories", but I wouldn't say she sounds bad. On "Enjoy Yourself", if she doesn't sound bad, she comes awfully close. I guess it was just the wrong song for her.

Each of the Supremes have some vocal best and vocal worst moments, including Diana. There are some songs she should never have even attempted [[I'm looking at you "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"). One bad vocal doesn't a bad lead singer make. The great thing about Mary is that, whatever was going on with her voice on "Enjoy Yourself" or any self confidence issues she would have, she certainly rebounded and became a great singer in her own right. In fact, prior to her passing, I labeled Mary as one of the few legends who still sounded in peak condition.

**RanRan79** · 10-20-2023, 04:11 PM

I know this is going to become a bash Mary Wilson thread, so hopefully I'm able to mitigate the incoming damage by pivoting to the best of Mary Wilson. This is one of my fav Mary vocals. She should have done the whole song alone.

**RanRan79** · 10-20-2023, 04:15 PM

This is the pinnacle of Mary's renditions of "Can't Take My Eyes Off You". She sounds fantastic.

**Spreadinglove21** · 10-20-2023, 04:15 PM

It wasn't included on the original Supremes at the Copa album issued in 1965. Enjoy Yourself didn't see the light of the day until the expanded edition was released in the 2000's so Berry and Motown kept it in the vault. It got on the expanded no doubt because the project is more of a historical work then something to promote and enhance the career of a current popular music recording act.

**RanRan79** · 10-20-2023, 04:17 PM

Not a Mary lead, but that final "baby, baby" on version 2 of "It's All Your Fault", at the very end when the music cuts and Mary is still singing, makes me wonder how a Mary led "Fault" would have sounded.

**floyjoy678** · 10-20-2023, 04:26 PM

I always wondered how Flo would have sounded on her verse.

Spreadinglove21, I actually first heard it in the 90s on a tape that I actually thought was the Roostertail show. Turns out it was a mix of the Roostertail show and some Copa outtakes.

Ran that's my favorite version of It's All Your Fault and love Mary's baby baby at the end there. Perfect end to a great song.

**BobbyC** · 10-20-2023, 04:27 PM

I am not bashing Mary--I was a big fan. That being said, I have to call 'em like I hear 'em. My question remains, why was Mary so all over the place in terms of vocal showings, particularly later in the 60's? I admit that many times I literally had to turn off early recordings of Diana Ross--they were that bad! BUT, seemed like Berry carefully controlled what was actually released when it came to her.

Spreading--I guess your info on how Enjoy Yourself explains it--it wasn't released!! Not at the time, anyway. Live, if the recordings are to be believed, Diana was always right on the money, vocally. She was no Aretha or Patti, but she was carefully packaged and directed by Berry and Motown. They should never have let Mary near Enjoy yourself. That being said, why did Mary blow everybody away with her lead on People in the Orient? Same time frame, but it's like it's two different singers!!

**BobbyC** · 10-20-2023, 04:34 PM

RanRan--I never heard It's All Your Fault! God, it sounds exactly like I Hear a Symphony and Mother Dear. Good GOD

**copley** · 10-20-2023, 04:34 PM

What I always say is 'Flo had the best voice, Diana had the most commercial voice & Mary was a great backing singer'.

**RanRan79** · 10-20-2023, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by floyjoy678

Ran that's my favorite version of It's All Your Fault and love Mary's baby baby at the end there. Perfect end to a great song.

I agree. I really think "Fault" deserved inclusion on More Hits.

**sup_fan** · 10-20-2023, 04:37 PM

see i don't think she sounds bad at all on Enjoy Yourself. frankly i think she's stronger and far more engaging than on songs like Davey Crocket or the Hollywood Palace Can't Take My Eyes. at least on EY she's engaged and dynamic. often times mary's leads came across a little lifeless.

i think the problem is, being a live performance, we're missing the visual component. mary was sexy as all hell and you KNOW she leveraged her beauty and stunning figure to emphasize her vocals. and i'd imagine her facial expressions during the lines were great too

look at GIT. now no one is probably gonna say they love that tv special. but if you just listen to some of the songs or the skits, it's really lacking. when watching the show though, while it's not the best thing the groups ever did, it's much more enjoyable.

or another example. mary's Can't Take My Eyes on HP. lord! i don't know if i've ever seen such a dead look in mary's eyes. she couldn't be further removed from that stage - might as well have been 1,000 miles away. and it comes through in her singing. it's fine but it's absolutely nothing special. little to no energy or excitement. nothing engaging. the lp version was better, mercifully. but neither compare to her duet version. i love that one.

**Spreadinglove21** · 10-20-2023, 04:41 PM

I seem to recall reading somewhere that for the Copa album Diana went into the studio after the gigs to re-record some of her vocals. Is this true? Maybe she had some vocal issues herself on some of the performances the night[[s) Motown was there to record the shows?

**RanRan79** · 10-20-2023, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by BobbyC

I am not bashing Mary--I was a big fan. That being said, I have to call 'em like I hear 'em. My question remains, why was Mary so all over the place in terms of vocal showings, particularly later in the 60's? I admit that many times I literally had to turn off early recordings of Diana Ross--they were that bad! BUT, seemed like Berry carefully controlled what was actually released when it came to her.

Spreading--I guess your info on how Enjoy Yourself explains it--it wasn't released!! Not at the time, anyway. Live, if the recordings are to be believed, Diana was always right on the money, vocally. She was no Aretha or Patti, but she was carefully packaged and directed by Berry and Motown. They should never have let Mary near Enjoy yourself. That being said, why did Mary blow everybody away with her lead on People in the Orient? Same time frame, but it's like it's two different singers!!

It's not that you're bashing Mary, it's that you've opened the door to it. The title of the thread itself will invite those salivating at yet another opportunity to dog Mary. Fingers crossed that I'm wrong.

That being said, I get that you don't...err...enjoy "Enjoy Yourself".

I don't either. And I agree, it's a pretty bad Mary vocal. But I don't think your question about it has a deep answer. It's likely that she was just a bad fit for the song. It happens. Or she was having an off night. It happens. Yes, Diana had a beautiful voice, and it was often perfectly captured onstage, but no one has a perfect night every night, including Diana, Aretha and Patti.

Also keep in mind this song was chosen to spotlight all three Supremes, or just Diana and Mary [[I'm not convinced that Flo ever had an intended part in the song, that the part about her being scared was some kind of bit). While it should have been priority to choose a song that equally fit the three of them, I imagine that was also a hard thing to do because they were three very different singers. To my ears EY was much more up Diana's lane than Mary's anyway. And with that being said, I don't think the song is all that great either way, and Diana isn't exactly wowing the crowd with it either. Certainly not wowing me.

**sup_fan** · 10-20-2023, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

I seem to recall reading somewhere that for the Copa album Diana went into the studio after the gigs to re-record some of her vocals. Is this true? Maybe she had some vocal issues herself on some of the performances the night[[s) Motown was there to record the shows?

yes. there were apparently technical issues with the recording of the lead track. i don't know all the technical details or exactly how they would record in a live setting. obviously they didn't just place a tape recorded on the floor and hit "record" lol.

I'm guessing that there were mics placed strategically around and these were tracked accordingly. maybe 1 for the band area, 1 for M and F and 1 for Diana? the lead one might have had some distortion and glitches on it. in the EE booklet they explain that using 21st century technology, they were able to make the necessary adjustments that they couldn't in 1965. Diana did go back and re-record all of her vocals. its amazing how she really matched herself nearly note for note.

**RanRan79** · 10-20-2023, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

I seem to recall reading somewhere that for the Copa album Diana went into the studio after the gigs to re-record some of her vocals. Is this true? Maybe she had some vocal issues herself on some of the performances the night[[s) Motown was there to record the shows?

This is true. I just can't remember if it was vocal issues or a mic issue. Flo and Mary also had to go back into the studio and sing along with their Apollo live recordings because apparently their mic was having issues. It happens.

**BobbyC** · 10-20-2023, 04:50 PM

I've read that too, Spreading. I know that by 1970, many "live albums" were mostly studio track with clap tracks added. Getting a live sound right was just too difficult in those days. Nona Hendryx told me that at some point. I could see Berry telling DR to make some changes in the vocals if necessary. he didn't bother with Mary, I guess

**RanRan79** · 10-20-2023, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

see i don't think she sounds bad at all on Enjoy Yourself. frankly i think she's stronger and far more engaging than on songs like Davey Crocket or the Hollywood Palace Can't Take My Eyes. at least on EY she's engaged and dynamic. often times mary's leads came across a little lifeless.

i think the problem is, being a live performance, we're missing the visual component. mary was sexy as all hell and you KNOW she leveraged her beauty and stunning figure to emphasize her vocals. and i'd imagine her facial expressions during the lines were great too

look at GIT. now no one is probably gonna say they love that tv special. but if you just listen to some of the songs or the skits, it's really lacking. when watching the show though, while it's not the best thing the groups ever did, it's much more enjoyable.

or another example. mary's Can't Take My Eyes on HP. lord! i don't know if i've ever seen such a dead look in mary's eyes. she couldn't be further removed from that stage - might as well have been 1,000 miles away. and it comes through in her singing. it's fine but it's absolutely nothing special. little to no energy or excitement. nothing engaging. the lp version was better, mercifully. but neither compare to her duet version. i love that one.

Mary's Hollywood Palace "Eyes" wasn't as bad as "Enjoy Yourself", it wasn't bad at all, but it was a horrible way to introduce the world to a lead singing Mary Wilson on national television. She was definitely better than this performance.

I love her vocal on "Davey Crockett". She handles it pretty well, for it to be an uptempo tune.

**sup_fan** · 10-20-2023, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

It's not that you're bashing Mary, it's that you've opened the door to it. The title of the thread itself will invite those salivating at yet another opportunity to dog Mary. Fingers crossed that I'm wrong.

That being said, I get that you don't...err...enjoy "Enjoy Yourself".

I don't either. And I agree, it's a pretty bad Mary vocal. But I don't think your question about it has a deep answer. It's likely that she was just a bad fit for the song. It happens. Or she was having an off night. It happens. Yes, Diana had a beautiful voice, and it was often perfectly captured onstage, but no one has a perfect night every night, including Diana, Aretha and Patti.

Also keep in mind this song was chosen to spotlight all three Supremes, or just Diana and Mary [[I'm not convinced that Flo ever had an intended part in the song, that the part about her being scared was some kind of bit). While it should have been priority to choose a song that equally fit the three of them, I imagine that was also a hard thing to do because they were three very different singers. To my ears EY was much more up Diana's lane than Mary's anyway. And with that being said, I don't think the song is all that great either way, and Diana isn't exactly wowing the crowd with it either. Certainly not wowing me.

i agree that the song was most likely intended for each girl to sing. i'm gonna guess here, based on the various books, that Flo was actually just recovering from the flu. I don't know which nights they recorded the shows. perhaps the first couple? Enjoy Yourself was only captured 1 time during those three nights of recordings. Was it in the act during the other Copa nights? was it in the show beyond the Copa? i seem to think it was, based on some of the reviews i've read of their shows throughout the year. perhaps it was on the Lincoln Center show? can't remember. it doesn't seem to have been in the act PRIOR to the copa. so maybe it was something Berry just threw in at last minute and flo had hardly had any time to learn her part?

right or wrong, i could see this being a MAJOR issue for Berry. the Copa was THE gig of their career and to have someone backout on stage from performing a part would have been considered heretical! and maybe Ran is right, maybe it was part of the act. they did the "quiet one, sexy one, intelligent one" during only 1 show - perhaps that was the EY show and the whole Flo being bashful thing was part of the act.

**Boogiedown** · 10-20-2023, 04:56 PM

sorry Bobby I'm not quite following your beef on this one. Sounds like good ol' Mary to me

If I were to notice anything here , it might be that Diana is having trouble getting the audience very engaged.

And Florence was afraid to do her part !!!???

**BobbyC** · 10-20-2023, 05:07 PM

Let Bob listen again. If you're gonna nag...

**BobbyC** · 10-20-2023, 05:12 PM

Okay, it sounds better the second time around, especially after I just smoked a big b-hit. Kidding. I think Mary is just too close to the mic and it is distorting her voice.

**Boogiedown** · 10-20-2023, 05:15 PM

hee haw!!!

....yes on the mic distortion

{the audience lit up most when Diana promises to let another Supreme sing!

}

**Ollie9** · 10-20-2023, 05:21 PM

I agree with Boog in thinking Mary sounds fine here, injecting the lyrics with some comic personality. As mentioned, she does sound like she’s to close to the microphone leading to some distortion.

**sup_fan** · 10-20-2023, 05:31 PM

if you listen carefully during the choruses, diana seems to be asking Mary and then later Flo "are you singing over there?" That's always struck me as odd too - as if she needed to confirm while on stage that they were sharing the leads??

**Boogiedown** · 10-20-2023, 05:44 PM

you're outnumbered Bobby , make like Diana and surrender!

....... She could be asking if that part of the audience is singing along .... her request for participation seems to not be going well ....

**jobeterob** · 10-20-2023, 06:50 PM

Her voice wasn’t commercial enough and she didn’t have sufficient confidence.

But even when she gained her confidence, her voice isn’t distinctive enough nor is it distinguishable from a lot of other voices - hence she couldn’t land a recording contract with a major label and have hits.

**Spreadinglove21** · 10-20-2023, 08:38 PM

How long was Enjoy Yourself in the act? Obviously it didn't become a staple of their night club act like Lady is A Tramp, Somewhere, You're Nobody or the Symphony medley.

**Spreadinglove21** · 10-20-2023, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Her voice wasn’t commercial enough and she didn’t have sufficient confidence.

But even when she gained her confidence, her voice isn’t distinctive enough nor is it distinguishable from a lot of other voices - hence she couldn’t land a recording contract with a major label and have hits.

So what's your reaction to the Copa recorded performance of Enjoy Yourself? Do you think during the time that song was in the act most of the audience members were evaluating the vocals and their enjoyment of the number by who sounded "commercial" and that criteria only?

**kenneth** · 10-20-2023, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

This is true. I just can't remember if it was vocal issues or a mic issue. Flo and Mary also had to go back into the studio and sing along with their Apollo live recordings because apparently their mic was having issues. It happens.

I don't remember the details of why she re-recorded the vocals but I know it's documented on the Hip-O Expanded Copa set.

**rod_rick** · 10-20-2023, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

So what's your reaction to the Copa recorded performance of Enjoy Yourself? Do you think during the time that song was in the act most of the audience members were evaluating the vocals and their enjoyment of the number by who sounded "commercial" and that criteria only?

I'm with you I think the audience was just happy someone else was singing instead of Diana for once. I'm so tired of hearing that Mary's voice was not commercial enough to sing lead. Had she received the same attention as Diana earlier on we would have gotten a total different vocalist of Mary Wilson

**Ollie9** · 10-21-2023, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by rod_rick

I'm with you I think the audience was just happy someone else was singing instead of Diana for once. I'm so tired of hearing that Mary's voice was not commercial enough to sing lead. Had she received the same attention as Diana earlier on we would have gotten a total different vocalist of Mary Wilson

I agree. Her voice is very much like Mary Wells, proving that given the right material and attention there is no reason why Mary might not have been successful.
Not sure as lead singer of the Supremes, but with slightly different arrangements and coaching who can be sure. Hard to imagine anyone topping Diana on those songs.

**Spreadinglove21** · 10-21-2023, 08:10 AM

In listening to Enjoy Yourself, Mary sounds alright. Nothing special but fine. Too close to the mic but certainly not shrill or incompetent. I think the Flo not knowing her part or being too bashful is rehearsed bit of business given that Diana then proceeds to do the part Flo was supposed to do. But the whole bit is a misfire. In fact that's the problem with Enjoy Yourself--the song. It's not a song for the ages to say the least. Even the audience doesn't seem thrilled that this old song is being performed.

That's why Copa is the least favorite of the 3 Supremes official live albums. The set list is often blatant pandering to what they think the audience wants to hear. And the songs all seem to emphasize a point that The Supremes aren't threatening, that they're not civil rights protestors or freedom riders on stage that night to make the comfortable feel uncomforable. They are there to entertain, to put on a happy face, make someone happy and enjoy themselves as they listen to the group sing songs associated with Al Jolson, Jimmy Durante, Dean Martin, and Judy Garland. The Sam Cooke medley does dip its toes into something that could be a tad edgy for this audience, but the intro makes it clear they are saluting a "show biz" legend, the Copa side of Sam Cooke, not the Apollo and chitlin circuit side of Sam Cooke. And the little number the Supremes sing as intro to perform their own hits is also cringe. Plus on the stage patter Diana sounds over rehearsed and/or worried that if she makes a mistake Berry will ream her out after the show. She doesn't sound relaxed or natural in many of her stage patter moments. Fortunately by Talk of the Town and Farewell shows the set list was much better and Diana was very much at ease in her performance and stage patter.

**BayouMotownMan** · 10-21-2023, 09:24 AM

When a singer is recorded live there are always sound challenges as nothing is the same from show to show. Sometimes the band overpowers, and a singer often doesn't sound as good live as they do in the studio. Onstage Diana was moving around a lot which makes a person short of breath. In the studio after a night or two of rest it helps the vocal chords become stronger than doing 2 or 3 shows a night.

Take Talk of the Town. I never thought Diana sounded good on most of the lp.

She re-recorded Copa for record release after Berry demanded it. She objected but did as he said in an effort to give the live recording a better sound quality from her

**floyjoy678** · 10-21-2023, 09:30 AM

When Diana says "Are you singing over there?", I always took it as her referring to a section of the audience in that she was trying to get them to sing along.

If it was rehearsed and Mary got a lead spot but not Flo, I can see why Flo hated this milestone for the group. While it was a great feat for the group, I often saw it as the beginning of a long end for the original trio.

I do notice the audience seems to be more thrilled when they sing their hits rather than the standard tunes. Some of them worked like Somewhere and Make Someone Happy and People. But the rest I could do without.

**midnightman** · 10-21-2023, 02:25 PM

I don't mind Mary's lead here at all. It's great she got to do her thing, though I can understand that it bothered Flo a bit that Mary got a solo and she didn't [[IIRC People got cut cause Diana and Gil Askey felt it was better to do the medley they were rehearsing at the time).

**jobeterob** · 10-21-2023, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

So what's your reaction to the Copa recorded performance of Enjoy Yourself? Do you think during the time that song was in the act most of the audience members were evaluating the vocals and their enjoyment of the number by who sounded "commercial" and that criteria only?

I think if I were watching this on Ed Sullivan, I would have been very disappointed and said “sing SITNOL”. Perhaps the supper club crowd enjoyed it but it’s a throwaway no matter who sings it. I would have been thrilled to hear Mary back in the day but now I think “what the hell did Florence think?”

Mary sounds like young Mary, I suppose not quite at her best.

**TheMotownManiac** · 10-22-2023, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by BobbyC

I'm not trying to pee on anyone's opinion about Mary Wilson, but I just heard the live version of Enjoy Yourself for the first time. I was shocked at how bad these couple of lines were!!! Mary is clearly reaching for notes she doesn't come close to hitting. The breathing is all wrong! How Berry even allowed this solo on a recording is shocking to me.

This is the same woman who did such a fantastic job on The Tears, Baby Don't Go, Sunset, and others? I can't believe it, frankly. Why was Mary so erratic, vocally, back then? Was it smoking? Cocaine, which she admitted to using? Was it lack of effort? Can anyone explain this?

Hell, I can't sing and even when I do karaoke, I practice the song before I jump up on that stage! Did Mary not practice Enjoy yourself?

this was not a good showcase for Mary. In fact, I don’t think it was a good showcase for anybody. I never cared for this song, but I heard Mary do it a lot better the first time they came to St. Louis. I liked Florence on it the best, but, I think Mary was better on People than Flo. We saw them again six months later in Chicago and enjoy yourself was out. I don’t think it was at all necessary anyway because they had to clean up the house and you’re nobody ‘til somebody loves you, and the intros were fun. Audiences liked enjoy yourself, but I think they were wise to take it out.

We’ve been around this a million times, Mary was wonderful for the kind of music that showed off her talent. You don’t see Miss Ross singing opera, it would not showcase her voice well. I know that Mary wanted very much to shine more, and I know that she was feeling some kind of way about the amount of attention diana was getting, I don’t at all believe she was insecure about her vocal abilities. The minute she stepped up to the plate on people, you were watching a full-fledged diva in the making. She knew she did a great job on it.

Mary wasn’t the lead singer of the Supremes, because she didn’t have the chops for it. Plain and simple. There’s no getting around it. Her voice would not sound great on the radio. she wasn’t really a natural Pop singer, and she never became one. There’s no crime in that. Diana sounds great on those HDH songs because they were written for her. Mary would’ve been fine as a Primette doing ballads, but it would never have gotten her on the radio which is why she never got a contract, she didn’t have the voice for the kind of music she was trying to sell. When she found her niche, She was successful and respected.

**Ollie9** · 10-22-2023, 05:20 AM

Had Mary been given the lead on “Where Did Our Love Go” as originally intended things might have proved very differently indeed.
To dismiss Mary as having a sound that would not sound great on radio is being dismissive of her talents. Had she been recording songs such as “My Guy” or “When I’m Gone” during that time frame radio would have lapped them up.
Supremes numbers such as “Baby Love” and “Cant Hurry Love” are without doubt more suited to Diana’s voice, but i see no reason why others such as “My World Is Empty” or “Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart” couldn’t have worked just as well with Mary’s sultry voice or even Flo.
I doubt Diana could sing opera even if she tried.

**floyjoy678** · 10-22-2023, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

this was not a good showcase for Mary. In fact, I don’t think it was a good showcase for anybody. I never cared for this song, but I heard Mary do it a lot better the first time they came to St. Louis. I liked Florence on it the best, but, I think Mary was better on People than Flo. We saw them again six months later in Chicago and enjoy yourself was out. I don’t think it was at all necessary anyway because they had to clean up the house and you’re nobody ‘til somebody loves you, and the intros were fun. Audiences liked enjoy yourself, but I think they were wise to take it out.

We’ve been around this a million times, Mary was wonderful for the kind of music that showed off her talent. You don’t see Miss Ross singing opera, it would not showcase her voice well. I know that Mary wanted very much to shine more, and I know that she was feeling some kind of way about the amount of attention diana was getting, I don’t at all believe she was insecure about her vocal abilities. The minute she stepped up to the plate on people, you were watching a full-fledged diva in the making. She knew she did a great job on it.

Mary wasn’t the lead singer of the Supremes, because she didn’t have the chops for it. Plain and simple. There’s no getting around it. Her voice would not sound great on the radio. she wasn’t really a natural Pop singer, and she never became one. There’s no crime in that. Diana sounds great on those HDH songs because they were written for her. Mary would’ve been fine as a Primette doing ballads, but it would never have gotten her on the radio which is why she never got a contract, she didn’t have the voice for the kind of music she was trying to sell. When she found her niche, She was successful and respected.

So you actually saw Flo do her verse on Enjoy Yourself? Interesting.

**RanRan79** · 10-22-2023, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

right or wrong, i could see this being a MAJOR issue for Berry. the Copa was THE gig of their career and to have someone backout on stage from performing a part would have been considered heretical! and maybe Ran is right, maybe it was part of the act. they did the "quiet one, sexy one, intelligent one" during only 1 show - perhaps that was the EY show and the whole Flo being bashful thing was part of the act.

There's no way Florence Ballard was so unprofessional that she would make the choice in the moment to back out of a lead...on stage...in front of an audience of people...at the Copa. Nope. No way. I can't recall one criticism of Florence on her professionalism on stage until that infamous last night in 1967. Some kind of comedy bit is the only thing that makes sense.

**RanRan79** · 10-22-2023, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by BobbyC

Okay, it sounds better the second time around, especially after I just smoked a big b-hit. Kidding. I think Mary is just too close to the mic and it is distorting her voice.

Okay, I've just done the same thing. I mean I took another listen, not smoked anything.

I do have to amend my opinion. I haven't listened to "Enjoy Yourself" in years. I'm guessing I've only listened to it two or three times ever. I remember being completely put off by Mary's vocal, but in giving it another listen, I don't know what I was thinking. No, it still is nowhere near as good as most of her other leads over the years, but I have to honestly say it isn't bad at all. I still don't think it's a really good fit for her- I think both Diana and Flo were, or would have been, better fits- but she doesn't sound bad at all.

It is interesting to sometimes go back over songs you don't listen to much [[or at all) and re-check one's opinion. Might be interesting if someone created a thread about songs we've changed our opinions about over the years.

**RanRan79** · 10-22-2023, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by rod_rick

I'm with you I think the audience was just happy someone else was singing instead of Diana for once. I'm so tired of hearing that Mary's voice was not commercial enough to sing lead. Had she received the same attention as Diana earlier on we would have gotten a total different vocalist of Mary Wilson

And here I was thinking that people back then listened to and liked songs on the radio because they just liked the song or the singer they were listening to. I guess folks were turning radios off left and right whenever a non "commercial" voice came across the airwaves. Commercial-shmercial.

**RanRan79** · 10-22-2023, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ollie9

I agree. Her voice is very much like Mary Wells, proving that given the right material and attention there is no reason why Mary might not have been successful.
Not sure as lead singer of the Supremes, but with slightly different arrangements and coaching who can be sure. Hard to imagine anyone topping Diana on those songs.

Shirley of the Shirelles is my response to the Mary could never have sold records crowd. Not to mention that the history of hit records is a virtual hodgepodge of vocal sounds. To suggest that Mary would cause millions of people to quickly turn the radio off the moment they heard her voice just doesn't make sense to me.

**RanRan79** · 10-22-2023, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Ollie9

Had Mary been given the lead on “Where Did Our Love Go” as originally intended things might have proved very differently indeed.
To dismiss Mary as having a sound that would not sound great on radio is being dismissive of her talents. Had she been recording songs such as “My Guy” or “When I’m Gone” during that time frame radio would have lapped them up.
Supremes numbers such as “Baby Love” and “Cant Hurry Love” are without doubt more suited to Diana’s voice, but i see no reason why others such as “My World Is Empty” or “Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart” couldn’t have worked just as well with Mary’s sultry voice or even Flo.
I doubt Diana could sing opera even if she tried.

Agreed. Diana got the leads and she sounds great. The rest is history. But it is unfortunate that the stories of Mary and Florence as lead vocalists were shortchanged by it all because there are a lot of people who enjoyed their voices then, and now people discovering them are enjoying them.

**jim aka jtigre99** · 10-22-2023, 12:10 PM

I have held back commenting because I always worry this will turn into another Mary Wilson bashing thread. There wasn't any member of the Supremes who could not sing, period. In the original group you certainly didn't want all 3 to sound like Diana because as a group that would have sounded just awful. I listened to this song. Yes, Mary does an adequate job but doesn't really seem to be a good fit for the song. I agree she had a Mary Wells type of sound and I always wondered why she wasn't given the lead on My Guy cover instead of Diana.
Diana Ross has a unique voice that was very pliable but both Mary and Flo had terrific voices. They may not have been pop perfect but they rocked ballads and R&B. They were 3 talented singers so it is unfair to compare them because they need 3 distinct sounds to give the group a complete sound. If Motown had nurtured them just a bit, Wilson could easily been the group's ballad singer. I don't think once she opened her mouth to sing that people were running and shrieking upon hearing her voice, turning off their radio. Mary had a very warm and powerful voice, her work is underrated. I know people disagree I once heard the wrath of "fans" back on the AOL boards when I stated my own personal preference hearing Mary sing ballads over Diana because Wilson was a warmer singer and Ross sometimes came off as too syrupy sweet on ballads to me and I stress TO ME!
We could all find a live performance where Mary was the wrong voice to sing, Diana was too nasal and soft, Flo was off key, Jean was too shrill and improvising too much, Scherrie may riff too much and Susaye may use her multioctave sound too much. Still, they were all very good singers. So, let's not say negative things about their voices because they are ALL good singers.

**daviddh** · 10-22-2023, 01:07 PM

Think she sounds ok..
But just a thought
I don't think Mary and Florence got the same attention,direction,training that maybe Diana did.
Also I think they grew into their individual roles within the group.

**RanRan79** · 10-22-2023, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

Mary had a very warm and powerful voice, her work is underrated. I know people disagree I once heard the wrath of "fans" back on the AOL boards when I stated my own personal preference hearing Mary sing ballads over Diana because Wilson was a warmer singer and Ross sometimes came off as too syrupy sweet on ballads to me and I stress TO ME!

Everyone has an opinion. I don't have a problem with anyone who doesn't think all that much of Mary's voice. She's not one of my favorite of the group's lead singers, personally. My only issue is that when someone makes the claim that a voice isn't commercial, it's not saying much. What does that mean? How does it apply to each and every singer that has ever had a hit or non hit? I mean how do you measure that? Is it based on hits? Is there an octave qualification? Does it apply equally to altos and sopranos? Is this "commercial" thing only a female singer issue or does it apply to men too? [[Because I only ever see it brought up with women, and in particular only ever see it brought up with the Supremes.)

Diana Ross had a very unique voice. If I were a record label owner, I could see myself being most intrigued with it because of that fact. But there were seven records released with that unique voice as lead and they virtually went nowhere. Mary sang half the lead on a hit record [["Floy Joy") and the same on a moderate hit [["Automatically Sunshine"). Both songs Mary is basically the first voice you hear. Who turned off the radio?

**RanRan79** · 10-22-2023, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

I agree she had a Mary Wells type of sound and I always wondered why she wasn't given the lead on My Guy cover instead of Diana.

IMO Mary would have made the song even worst. For one, it's a horrible cover. It's not that I think it should have been a carbon copy of Mary Wells' version, but I do think it sounds like Smokey didn't put any thought into taking the Supremes into the studio to cover one of his biggest productions ever. It's like it never occurred to him to think "I got the biggest female group in the world right now, let me take this special song and make it even greater". Now there's a chance that there was no way to make "My Guy" greater than it already was. Mary Wells' version is legendary. But when you have the Supremes in the studio during the peak of their fame, why not go for the gold? The arrangement is half assed, at best. Diana sounds bored. Flo and Mary are mailing it in, even though they get a nice little showcase. I don't think Mary leading it would have made it any better.

**sup_fan** · 10-23-2023, 10:06 AM

HDH were also crafting their songs specifically for Diana's voice. No i can't hear M or F doing Come See About Me, You Can't Hurry Love, Baby Love, Reflections or I Hear A Symphony. but at the same time i can't hear Martha, Wanda, Gladys K or Gladys H, Ann Bogan, Blinky doing them either.

whoever stated above that certainly all 3 Supremes could sing was absolutely right. if they couldn't sing they wouldn't have been in the group. and this is almost a direct quote that Berry said too. But Berry and Motown were also looking for a very pop-focused group that could win over the Billboard Hot 100 and the upper crust supper club crowd. Diana's voice definitely seems to best fit the bouncy pop tunes of the early and mid 60s. This isn't to say that there are 0 tunes that could fit M or F. but they tapped into a successful pop sound with Diana and that's where they stayed