Could Motown have been "saved"?

[Optimal Saint]

I think that the common narrative about Motown is that it was a cultural and generational powerhouse and phenomenon in the 1960s

Once the company moved to Los Angeles in the early 70s the magic was gone. They still had huge hits with Jackson 5, Marvin, Diana, Stevie etc. but nowhere near as many as the decade prior

There were some 80s hits courtesy of Rick James and Lionel Ritchie but once Motown 25 aired the company became one fueled almost entirely by nostalgia and past glory

Is there any way that narrative could have been changed and Motown could have been 'saved' to the point that Berry would have sold in the late 80s?

If Motown remained in Detroit?

If Berry stayed focused on music and not Hollywood?

If Holland Dozier Holland were convinced to stay and given more money and their own label like they wanted?

If artists who wanted to write and produce their own material was allowed to do so?

If artists and producers who left also were convinced to stay [[Mary Wells, Four Tops, Mickey Stevenson etc.)

and a big catch all - if all those with drug and alcohol problems didn't have drug and alcohol problems?

I honestly don't know how much it would have mattered

It seems that almost every 60s and early 70s soul star suffered once Disco exploded and again with videos

I don't know if anything could have happened that in the 80s Motown would have 4-6 of the top 10 songs on the country like it did some weeks in the 60s

With some/all of these changes I think we would have gotten more great 60s and 70s music but I think the decline was inevitable

It may have been delayed but I do think it would have still happened

[Circa 1824]

When the queen left, Diana, it was over.

[motony]

when Motown Record Corp. left Detroit, the magic, and most of the talent was gone.

[DWSheffer]

Simply put, I agree with Tony.....

[motony]

2648 W. Grand Blvd. was unique to say the least.

[Motown Eddie]

I say that Motown would've been better off staying in Detroit and away from the TV & film business. Also they should've kept abreast of the fact that in the '70s, Soul Music wasn't the sole province of companies like Motown. When the major record companies started focusing on Soul [and offering better recording deals to artists], Motown was weakened by that.

[ralpht]

I was very nearly left in charge of a pared down operation. Studio B and a budget for the Detroit Creative Division. However my public negative opinions of Suzanne DePasse kind of sunk that offer. I'm not saying I would have saved Motown Detroit but I was willing to give it a hell of a try. I know I could have given Mowest a run for the money.

[mysterysinger]

Motown is still going.

And now has a Metaverse.

Berry made plenty when he sold Motown - he made even more when he sold Jobete. Good luck to Berry Gordy Jr. He deserves all his plaudits. He got it right.


https://www.motownrecords.com

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

I was very nearly left in charge of a pared down operation. Studio B and a budget for the Detroit Creative Division. However my public negative opinions of Suzanne DePasse kind of sunk that offer. I'm not saying I would have saved Motown Detroit but I was willing to give it a hell of a try. I know I could have given Mowest a run for the money.

You know a company has grown far too large when it gets to the point that company politics overrides what is actually good for the company itself. What a fascinating "What If" to ponder- What If Berry had left you in charge of Motown Detroit. It couldn't have hurt Motown in the least and only benefitted the company from the standpoint of not losing the strengths of its hometown spirit and experienced producers, musicians, etc.

Motown could have had its excursion into Hollywood without pretending to play out the part of an insane madman running through the buildings of Motown Detroit with the world's biggest ax, murdering all the hard work that had been accomplished there.

[motony]

I always thought that Smokey [[creative), Barney Ales[[administration), Esther Edwards[[administration) in Detroit running Motown Record Corp. & Berry could have focused soley on Motown Film Division would have been GOLD.I was a 21 yr old kid in 1972 so what would I know, LOL I was still in love with Mary Wells & then the Motown Record Corp. & the whole James Brown org. a whole nother ball game. These are fun to look back & say "what if".

[jobeterob]

I kind of feel that Motown is still going and what they did is “forever”

I think there will be resurgences when Diana and Stevie are gone and perhaps somewhat Smokey and Berry

In 1970, I was 17, went away to university, went wild, got an “E” in a course at Christmas, and thought I knew the Motown Sound and that I should go to LA and produce records there, lol. But a few years later after I listened to Diana on the Motown Story, I tried to find out where my head was and went to Law School

[jsmith]

Yes, the move to LA and BG appointing the wrong people to positions of influence + his focus on movies killed Motown music wise.
The recording side in Detroit should have remained the mainstay of the company. BG should have just taken Diane off to LA and left everything else alone. Dumping the Funk Brothers was a major major mistake, though the LA musicians used were also a talented bunch. Mowest could still have been run as a musical entity. But alongside the Detroit operation, not instead of.

[bradsupremes]

Unfortunately Gordy lost sight of the dream when he picked up the label and moved it to LA in an effort to expand into the television and film industry. The true essence of what made Motown so special disappeared. It was never going to be the major production company he envisioned it to be. Like jsmith said, appointing the wrong people to run things did real damage too.

I'm not sure Motown could have been saved, but there were definitely things that could have been done to delay and lessened its demise. Keeping a recording operation in Detroit is at the top of the list.

[soulster]

I can't quite blame it on the change in the music business because Gamble & Huff at Philadelphia International used the same assembly line model, and Solar Records did after that, and Clarence Avant did with Tabu Records. Bernard Edwards and Nile Rodgers did the same with their empire. And no, it wasn't because Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, The Temptations, The Four Tops, The Spinners, or Gladys Knight & The Pips all left the label, it was because the people at Motown in the 70s had no musical vision. They stopped listening to the street. They kept looking for the three-minute love song while their competition in Philadelphia were getting political. Gamble & Huff had their thumb on the pulse of disco while Motown tried to play copy-cat. Stax Records enjoyed their wildest successes in the 70s.

Motown did OK with Commodores, Rick James, and Teena Marie, but most funk bands of the 70s and early 80s did their own thing. Motown suits liked control. When Stax fell apart, their orphaned artists weren't looking at Motown. They went to Columbia or Mercury. The Jackson clan wanted artistic control but Motown wouldn't give it to them. So they fled. The only reason Stevie Wonder got his control is because he was wise enough to get some management and good lawyers, and put in his contract. Marvin Gaye exerted his control because he was Berry Gordy's son-in-law, was stubborn as a mule, and it was in his contract. The minute Gladys Knight, The Four Tops, and the Spinners left, they instantly got major hits. And, the kicker is that ABC Records may have had The Impressions, B.B. King, and Rufus featuring Chaka Khan, and some Impulse jazz artists, ABC/Dunhill wasn't exactly known for R&B music. The Four Tops changed some of that.

Perhaps Motown should have kept the original Hitsville in Detroit open. That's where George Clinton recorded all his classics. They would have been much closer to the state of Ohio, and Chicago, where lots of 70s funk bands came from. But, they were isolated out there in L.A. and Gordy bent on making Diana Ross a movie star. Maybe if they had expanded to the California soft-rock genre instead of wasting time with country. Maybe they should have kept The Four Seasons and let them do what they needed to do. Maybe if they had let the Jackson brothers do their own thing...

[soulster]

Unfortunately Gordy lost sight of the dream when he picked up the label and moved it to LA in an effort to expand into the television and film industry. The true essence of what made Motown so special disappeared. It was never going to be the major production company he envisioned it to be. Like jsmith said, appointing the wrong people to run things did real damage too.

I'm not sure Motown could have been saved, but there were definitely things that could have been done to delay and lessened its demise. Keeping a recording operation in Detroit is at the top of the list.

I totally agree! But I think it could have been saved. They just needed a vision.

In 1987, Jheryl Busby took over the company after the sale to MCA, and at least tried to update the company. The signed a few artists, and had some success with Johnny Gill and Boys II Men, but by then, the corporate mergers and acquisitions happened, effectively turning Motown into a reissue label. Last time I looked, Motown was under the same umbrella as Capitol Records.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Right off the bat, Motown's move to LA meant I lost three of my most treasured artists -- Martha Reeves & The Vandellas, Wanda Rogers & The Marvelettes, and The Andantes, although I didn't realize it at the time. I didn't fully understand what had happened until the Motown behind-the-scenes books started coming out in the '80s revealing that Martha showed up for a scheduled session -- only to learn that Motown had upped and moved without her, and without even having the decency of telling her. As it turned out, The Andantes weren't invited to move, either. They were left behind to figure it all out on their own, as were The Funk Brothers. So much for nurturing and maintaining The Motown Sound in California. On the plus side, the Motown hits kept coming with no slack whatsoever. Plenty of new releases by the established Motown stars as well as exciting newcomers. It's probably just as well. At the time, ignorance was bliss. Had I known of the way Motown mistreated its best employees, it would have surely ruined my ability to enjoy Motown's '70s hits, of which there were many.

I agree wholeheartedly that Motown's record division should have remained in Detroit while Berry wove his movie dreams in Hollywood.

AFTERTHOUGHT: The thought just occurred to me that Berry supposedly moved Motown due to the late-'60s Detroit riots. Moving Motown for safety's sake provided peace of mind at the time [[despite the 5-year gap between the 1967 Detroit riots and the 1972 move to LA.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I was very nearly left in charge of a pared down operation. Studio B and a budget for the Detroit Creative Division. However my public negative opinions of Suzanne DePasse kind of sunk that offer. I'm not saying I would have saved Motown Detroit but I was willing to give it a hell of a try. I know I could have given Mowest a run for the money.

Ralph, it's a shame that your chance to take over Motown's creative division in Detroit fell through. I've heard some of yours and Russ' Motown productions. You would have been the perfect choice to keep things afloat.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

This just came up in my feed on YouTube. It's all about Stax Records. Many of you may already know their story, but it was eye-opening to me. I didn't realize that Stax attempted to go the exact same route as Motown: moving into movies and other fields and even attempting to go into comedy. So it would seem Motown wasn't the only company looking to expand.

The Stax story is fascinating and extremely heartbreaking. A lot of the comments left for this are a bit weird because everyone seems to be treating it as a wonderful nostalgic look back at a fun and frivolous past. This story is anything but light and bouncy fun.

[ralpht]

Gary, thanks for the words of support. Had things worked out I would have immediately had Harry Balk and Mike McLean return. Then set up meetings with Norman Whitfield, Clay McMurray,Frank Wilson and Bobby Taylor. In retrospect, I think I could have pulled it off.

[heikki]

Hi!

That's a good book, but it more or less repeats the information that appeared already in Rob Bowman's definite book on the subject, Soulsville U.S.A.

https://www.soulexpress.net/deep1_2014.htm#staxstory

Best regards
Heikki

[Sotosound]

I can't quite blame it on the change in the music business because Gamble & Huff at Philadelphia International used the same assembly line model, and Solar Records did after that, and Clarence Avant did with Tabu Records. Bernard Edwards and Nile Rodgers did the same with their empire. And no, it wasn't because Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, The Temptations, The Four Tops, The Spinners, or Gladys Knight & The Pips all left the label, it was because the people at Motown in the 70s had no musical vision. They stopped listening to the street. They kept looking for the three-minute love song while their competition in Philadelphia were getting political. Gamble & Huff had their thumb on the pulse of disco while Motown tried to play copy-cat. Stax Records enjoyed their wildest successes in the 70s.

Motown did OK with Commodores, Rick James, and Teena Marie, but most funk bands of the 70s and early 80s did their own thing. Motown suits liked control. When Stax fell apart, their orphaned artists weren't looking at Motown. They went to Columbia or Mercury. The Jackson clan wanted artistic control but Motown wouldn't give it to them. So they fled. The only reason Stevie Wonder got his control is because he was wise enough to get some management and good lawyers, and put in his contract. Marvin Gaye exerted his control because he was Berry Gordy's son-in-law, was stubborn as a mule, and it was in his contract. The minute Gladys Knight, The Four Tops, and the Spinners left, they instantly got major hits. And, the kicker is that ABC Records may have had The Impressions, B.B. King, and Rufus featuring Chaka Khan, and some Impulse jazz artists, ABC/Dunhill wasn't exactly known for R&B music. The Four Tops changed some of that.

Perhaps Motown should have kept the original Hitsville in Detroit open. That's where George Clinton recorded all his classics. They would have been much closer to the state of Ohio, and Chicago, where lots of 70s funk bands came from. But, they were isolated out there in L.A. and Gordy bent on making Diana Ross a movie star. Maybe if they had expanded to the California soft-rock genre instead of wasting time with country. Maybe they should have kept The Four Seasons and let them do what they needed to do. Maybe if they had let the Jackson brothers do their own thing...

Depressing, really.

By the way, I wanted to "like" this post but wasn't allowed to, which can be sooo annoying.

[midnightman]

Motown leaving Detroit is like someone having surgery to remove a heart with no replacement. Not to mention Berry struggled financially for years and ended up having to finally sell Motown to MCA in 1988 to finally find wealth at the end and settled for $61 million. The magic definitely had left Motown when it bounced from Detroit in 72. Once it's gone it's hard to bring it back. Only the Temptations, Marvin & Stevie were consistent until they weren't anymore [[mid-to-late 70s).

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Hi!

That's a good book, but it more or less repeats the information that appeared already in Rob Bowman's definite book on the subject, Soulsville U.S.A.

https://www.soulexpress.net/deep1_2014.htm#staxstory

Best regards
Heikki

No sooner read than ordered! I'm getting that book. I already ordered the DVD last night. Funny because previously I had pretty much 1% interest in Stax, and that was it. But that documentary made a huge impression on me. I think if anything, the Stax story impressed on me even more just how shrewd Berry was when it came to business and legal matters. He was also astute enough to surround himself with people much more knowledgeable about these thing. I think Jim Stewart's biggest error was that he was a little too ready to take people on their word, a "Gentleman's Agreement" as he said; instead of knowing the Golden Rule of business- Get It In Writing. That broke my heart that he lost the early Stax masters simply because he didn't thoroughly read the contract. And of us hasn't skipped the fine print and endless clauses when signing contracts?

Thanks for the heads up on this book.

[Spreadinglove21]

No sooner read than ordered! I'm getting that book. I already ordered the DVD last night. Funny because previously I had pretty much 1% interest in Stax, and that was it. But that documentary made a huge impression on me. I think if anything, the Stax story impressed on me even more just how shrewd Berry was when it came to business and legal matters. He was also astute enough to surround himself with people much more knowledgeable about these thing. I think Jim Stewart's biggest error was that he was a little too ready to take people on their word, a "Gentleman's Agreement" as he said; instead of knowing the Golden Rule of business- Get It In Writing. That broke my heart that he lost the early Stax masters simply because he didn't thoroughly read the contract. And of us hasn't skipped the fine print and endless clauses when signing contracts?

Thanks for the heads up on this book.

Both books are well worth reading. Bowman is packed with detail and more focused on the history of the recording company, both musically and the business. And he got to interview many important people to the Stax story such as Jim Stewart, Estelle Axton, Al Bell and many of the musicians and artists. The Gordon book is more accessible and he provides a larger social context as he also tells the story of the Memphis garbage men and their union's struggle for recognition and respect and the involvement of Dr. King and how that and the rise and fall of Stax relate to the larger story of Memphis and African American Civil rights movement of the 60s and 70s. And while both authors interviewed Deanie Parker, Gordon uses her more as a source than Bowman. Both books well worth reading. I read the Bowman book years ago when I didn't know much about Stax and it overwhelmed me at times. Earlier this year I visited the Stax Museum in Memphis. It was great and I bought the Gordon book at the museum shop and read it and loved it. Then I bought all 3 Complete Stax Volt soul singles box sets and been playing those discs nearly non stop since March. Recently I re-read the Bowman book and after immersing myself in Stax these last 7 months, this time reading it was an extremely enriching experience.

Once Stax gets into your system, it will be hard to shake loose!

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Both books are well worth reading. Bowman is packed with detail and more focused on the history of the recording company, both musically and the business. And he got to interview many important people to the Stax story such as Jim Stewart, Estelle Axton, Al Bell and many of the musicians and artists. The Gordon book is more accessible and he provides a larger social context as he also tells the story of the Memphis garbage men and their union's struggle for recognition and respect and the involvement of Dr. King and how that and the rise and fall of Stax relate to the larger story of Memphis and African American Civil rights movement of the 60s and 70s. And while both authors interviewed Deanie Parker, Gordon uses her more as a source than Bowman. Both books well worth reading. I read the Bowman book years ago when I didn't know much about Stax and it overwhelmed me at times. Earlier this year I visited the Stax Museum in Memphis. It was great and I bought the Gordon book at the museum shop and read it and loved it. Then I bought all 3 Complete Stax Volt soul singles box sets and been playing those discs nearly non stop since March. Recently I re-read the Bowman book and after immersing myself in Stax these last 7 months, this time reading it was an extremely enriching experience.

Once Stax gets into your system, it will be hard to shake loose!

Wow, I really appreciate your in-depth breakdown of these books. I like that, as you said, one is more accessible while the other is deep with details. I love a book that I can really just sink into, so I know I'll enjoy the Bowman book, even if I have to digest it gradually over time. The Gordon book I'm sure I'll enjoy as much as you mentioned it places the Stax story into a greater social context- one year of psychology in high school gave me a love for that sort of thing; learning how one set of circumstances can often affect or initiate another set of circumstances or events.

Thanks for the heads up on these two books!

[jsmith]

A perfect example of Motown missing a trick in the 70's was Jnr Walker's career.
He was big in the 60's with his jazz inspired instrumentals, having many major hits.
IN THE EARLY 70's; jazz & jazz funk instrumentals [[+ vocal-ish tracks) came into vogue; many artists having huge hits with such material ... I could name dozens of artists who took advantage of the trend at the time ... BUT WHERE WAS JNR IN ALL THIS ... he was left by Motown languishing on the side lines. Dependant on playing live gigs full of his old 60's tracks and not joining in with other similar acts and enjoying new hits.

[Motown Eddie]

This just came up in my feed on YouTube. It's all about Stax Records. Many of you may already know their story, but it was eye-opening to me. I didn't realize that Stax attempted to go the exact same route as Motown: moving into movies and other fields and even attempting to go into comedy. So it would seem Motown wasn't the only company looking to expand.

Yes! I've seen Respect Yourself and it's great documentary on Stax Records [and I read Rob Bowman's excellent book Soulsville U.S.A. too]. Indeed, the attempts go into movies was just as much a mistake for Stax as it was for Motown. And while Stax Records never moved to L.A., they made an even bigger mistake in hooking up with Columbia Records for distribution of their records in 1972.

[Motown Eddie]

A perfect example of Motown missing a trick in the 70's was Jnr Walker's career.
He was big in the 60's with his jazz inspired instrumentals, having many major hits.
IN THE EARLY 70's; jazz & jazz funk instrumentals [[+ vocal-ish tracks) came into vogue; many artists having huge hits with such material ... I could name dozens of artists who took advantage of the trend at the time ... BUT WHERE WAS JNR IN ALL THIS ... he was left by Motown languishing on the side lines. Dependant on playing live gigs full of his old 60's tracks and not joining in with other similar acts and enjoying new hits.

On a related note, Motown did handle distribution for two Jazz oriented labels Chisa & C.T.I. for a brief time during the '70s so they at least had a toehold in the market for Jazz/Funk instrumentals [and yes, they could've steered Junior Walker in this direction as the field for Jazz/Funk was expanding].

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Gary, thanks for the words of support. Had things worked out I would have immediately had Harry Balk and Mike McLean return. Then set up meetings with Norman Whitfield, Clay McMurray,Frank Wilson and Bobby Taylor. In retrospect, I think I could have pulled it off.

Boy, I'll say! You've got me excited just hearing about what might have been! If only Motown could go back to 1972 and do it right.

[mysterysinger]

Boy, I'll say! You've got me excited just hearing about what might have been! If only Motown could go back to 1972 and do it right.

But without proper promotion from Motown what would have become of it all?

[ralpht]

Motown would gladly promote Detroit if what we were producing far exceeded Mowest productions.

[arr&bee]

Great post, being at the age where[nastalsia] is big with me...i too wish that berry had kept motown in motown!

[Boogiedown]

Was drug use in Detroit a factor ?? Were the well-used musicians there losing their sheen??

[ralpht]

No drug use that might cause problems. The Funks were as sharp as ever.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Was drug use in Detroit a factor ?? Were the well-used musicians there losing their sheen??

That would be such a huge stretch of a reason to relocate an entire company. Let's say that was a factor. Someone would be hard-pressed not to believe there wasn't plenty of drug use in Sunny LA. If not more so. And if that was the case, why wouldn't drug use not take a toll on the LA musicians?

[bob_olhsson]

Drug use was very rare and only very occasional pot. I also don't think it had to do with the riots.

I was told by Bob Dennis that the original plan was to have Brian Holland manage production and build a large, multi-room state of the art studio in the Sanders building. HDH leaving led to reducing investment by taking over the Golden World studio. The other factor was that a lot of musicians had relocated because of the decline in advertising and network radio production in Detroit. I've long quipped that Motown was the Funk Brothers' hobby.

[mysterysinger]

Brian Holland is a true genius in my eyes and despite all the success of HDH over the years I think he deserves far more recognition and respect than he seems to get. Probably down to his own understated approach and being the quiet one of the Holland brothers. Eddie is always the first to praise Brian. Given Bob's post above it's such a shame that HDH had to leave Motown.

[Spreadinglove21]

If Motown had retained a Detroit presence in the early to mid 70s, would there have been young artists and performers in the area who could have become major stars and hit makers like those in the 60s? That's one thing about Motown leaving Detroit when they did as it closed a door of opportunity for local talent.

[Thatkliqkid]

I think it would have been really interesting for both Motown and their career had they let The Jackson 5 record music they had written themselves. Going off Rapping with The Jackson 5 Michael was attempting to write songs as early as 1971. J5 did write and produce "what's your game" by M-D-L-T Willis in 1974 on Joe Jackson's label.

[Boogiedown]

That would be such a huge stretch of a reason to relocate an entire company. Let's say that was a factor. Someone would be hard-pressed not to believe there wasn't plenty of drug use in Sunny LA. If not more so. And if that was the case, why wouldn't drug use not take a toll on the LA musicians?

No you're reading too much into my question if you think I was asking if they fled from Detroit specifically because of drugs there, and absolutely Cali/LA was rife in instituting the drug scene so that would make no sense as any intent of a solution.

I'm just curious as to whether there was any degree of tainting to the Detroit scene that allowed Berry to bale so willingly.

It doesn't make sense to me to dismantle entirely what you're having success with to chase exclusively after an unknown. Just because Mars comes out with a new candy bar, it doesn't mean to abandon their M&Ms.

Costs being set aside as a factor, didn't a lot of the Gordy family stay in Detroit? And what percent of the company didn't want to move to LA?
Seems strange to abandon the Funk Bros leaving them high and dry [whoops bad wording, that wasn't supposed to suggest anything] ..... but then maybe they were offered a transition to LA but they [all?] turned the offer down?
Seems like there was plenty of the foundation in Detroit to carry on ....while expanding in LA.

ralpht:

No drug use that might cause problems. The Funks were as sharp as ever.

that is really good to hear

bob_olhsson:

Drug use was very rare and only very occasional pot. I also don't think it had to do with the riots.

[Optimal Saint]

Does anyone know if Berry either publicly or privately expressed any regret moving Motown from Detroit or said what he may have done differently?

[ralpht]

I think Motown simply outgrew Berry. It was no longer fun for him. With the addition of videos on the scene, production costs on a given song became prohibitive. He loved mixing with my brother until an aide would come and whisper in his ear that he had a meeting to attend. He would tell my brother that he had to go meet with "The college boys". I've said it before: Berry was, besides being a shrewd business man, was a song writer and record producer. Once deprived of being just that, the fun was history.

[jobeterob]

I think Motown simply outgrew Berry. It was no longer fun for him. With the addition of videos on the scene, production costs on a given song became prohibitive. He loved mixing with my brother until an aide would come and whisper in his ear that he had a meeting to attend. He would tell my brother that he had to go meet with "The college boys". I've said it before: Berry was, besides being a shrewd business man, was a song writer and record producer. Once deprived of being just that, the fun was history.

Good post and also it is very easy to relate to this happening to a person

They say he is worth $500 million so I suppose this eased his move away from everything

[soulster]

No sooner read than ordered! I'm getting that book. I already ordered the DVD last night. Funny because previously I had pretty much 1% interest in Stax, and that was it. But that documentary made a huge impression on me. I think if anything, the Stax story impressed on me even more just how shrewd Berry was when it came to business and legal matters. He was also astute enough to surround himself with people much more knowledgeable about these thing. I think Jim Stewart's biggest error was that he was a little too ready to take people on their word, a "Gentleman's Agreement" as he said; instead of knowing the Golden Rule of business- Get It In Writing. That broke my heart that he lost the early Stax masters simply because he didn't thoroughly read the contract. And of us hasn't skipped the fine print and endless clauses when signing contracts?

At his core, Jim Stewart was just a good-natured country fiddler who loved music. He didn't have any business acumen and was no match for the slick lawyers at Atlantic. It wasn't until after they lost their masters [[Otis Redding, half of The Bar-Kays, and the rights to record and release Sam & Dave) and started over did he hire and promote more business-savvy people like Al Bell. But, Bell had issues with the socio-politics of the time. They were cleared of any wrongdoing in the end, but by then it was too late.

Philadelphia International imploded by internal squabbles and conflicting musical visions.

[soulster]

A perfect example of Motown missing a trick in the 70's was Jnr Walker's career.
He was big in the 60's with his jazz inspired instrumentals, having many major hits.
IN THE EARLY 70's; jazz & jazz funk instrumentals [[+ vocal-ish tracks) came into vogue; many artists having huge hits with such material ... I could name dozens of artists who took advantage of the trend at the time ... BUT WHERE WAS JNR IN ALL THIS ... he was left by Motown languishing on the side lines. Dependant on playing live gigs full of his old 60's tracks and not joining in with other similar acts and enjoying new hits.

According to Mick Jones, leader of the band Foreigner, Mr. DeWalt as wasting time playing disco in small clubs when he recruited him to solo on their hit "Urgent" in 1981. Jones had to guide him to play the R&B he was famous for. Not only that, Jones comped that solo you hear on the record. You can clearly hear the punch-in points when you hear that solo. I'm not quite sure what DeWalt did to capitalize on his famous solo, but it wasn't much. Maybe he was just burned out. Who knows? I don't.

[soulster]

And while Stax Records never moved to L.A., they made an even bigger mistake in hooking up with Columbia Records for distribution of their records in 1972.

Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time. It worked for Gamble & Huff and The Isley Brothers. Clive Davis may not have known much about R&B, but he was wise enough to sign them to the label.

[soulster]

I was told by Bob Dennis that the original plan was to have Brian Holland manage production and build a large, multi-room state of the art studio in the Sanders building. HDH leaving led to reducing investment by taking over the Golden World studio. The other factor was that a lot of musicians had relocated because of the decline in advertising and network radio production in Detroit. I've long quipped that Motown was the Funk Brothers' hobby.

Regarding Invictus/Hot Wax, what do you think brought the company down after such a short time? HDH had such potential. In 1971 they seemed unstoppable. Not too much has been written about the label.

[soulster]

I think Motown simply outgrew Berry. It was no longer fun for him. With the addition of videos on the scene, production costs on a given song became prohibitive. He loved mixing with my brother until an aide would come and whisper in his ear that he had a meeting to attend. He would tell my brother that he had to go meet with "The college boys". I've said it before: Berry was, besides being a shrewd business man, was a song writer and record producer. Once deprived of being just that, the fun was history.

Wow! I didn't know he still liked being in the studio. Could he have done like Herb Alpert did, turn over executive duties to others and carry on with the creative things?

[jsmith]

RE >> Regarding Invictus/Hot Wax, what do you think brought the company down after such a short time? HDH had such potential.
... As I understand things; HDH got very big signing deal advance payments from Capitol & Buddah but blew the lot on cars, goodies & their new studio. So when the hit 45's started coming, they were due no royalties [[till the advances had been covered). So the likes of C of B, Freda Payne, etc were enjoying huge sales figures but HDH didn't have the money to pay them what they were due. So the artists / musicians involved weren't too happy and enough money didn't come into the HDH coffers as time passed to make matters right. Sales figures on their releases then started to fall off & everyone went sour on the guys & their labels.
BUT this is probably just a part of the overall story.

[soulster]

RE >> Regarding Invictus/Hot Wax, what do you think brought the company down after such a short time? HDH had such potential.
... As I understand things; HDH got very big signing deal advance payments from Capitol & Buddah but blew the lot on cars, goodies & their new studio. So when the hit 45's started coming, they were due no royalties [[till the advances had been covered). So the likes of C of B, Freda Payne, etc were enjoying huge sales figures but HDH didn't have the money to pay them what they were due. So the artists / musicians involved weren't too happy and enough money didn't come into the HDH coffers as time passed to make matters right. Sales figures on their releases then started to fall off & everyone went sour on the guys & their labels.
BUT this is probably just a part of the overall story.

Thanks. In other words, they didn't know how to run a record company.

I just wish someone would write a book or do a doc on it all before more survivors pass on.

While i'm at it, i'd like to know Clarence Avant's history with his Sussex and Tabu labels. In short, there were a lot of Black-owned and/or run record labels that no one really talks about beyond the usual Motown, Philadelphia International, or post-1967 Stax. How about the Carl Davis-era of Brunswick?