Who decided when a group member could be fired?

[jobucats]

Was David Ruffin actually fired from the Temptations? Whose decision was it that he was to exit from the group? Legally, did Motown [[Berry Gordy) have to approve the other members' demands that David should be fired?

Another reason I am asking this is because, on another forum, I suggested that if the two background singers of a famous female group were unhappy that the lead singer was getting all of the attention, could they have gone to Berry and successfully had her removed so that they could elevate one of them as the lead singer AND hired another girl to join the group as a background singer?

Now that I have asked the question, I am thinking that Berry might have suggested that if he were to approve such a drastic personnel change, he would 'wash his hands' of any support and promotion of the group.

Legally, though, could those two ladies fired their lead singer, regrouped with another member and retained the group's name?

Were there other personnel in Motown's group were fired other than David and one of the women from the famous female trio?

[drewschultz88]

I believe Saundra Edwards was added to the Elgins as a member at the suggestion of the label - I think that Holland / Dozier / Holland’s Invictus and Hit Wax labels are bigger examples of a label putting together groups from scratch and having influence on members [[check out Steve Mancha singing with 8th Day, 100 Proof, and Parliament all for H/D/H). These are examples of the labels having sway in adding members as opposed to removing members - but label influence on group membership has probably happened from time to time over the years and across all genres.

[reese]

I suppose it depends on the group's contract. In her first book, Mary Wilson wrote that their contract stated that if a member chose to leave, her replacement would be chosen by Motown. Also, if a group member was to be fired, only Motown could do it.

Re the Tempts, it sounds like they had more control. Early on, original member Eldridge Bryant was fired after attitude problems and a violent incident with Paul. In his book, Otis wrote that when things came to a head with David, the other four members drew up a legal document relieving David of his responsibilities to the group.

Other group members who were dismissed include Cindy Birdsong, Betty Kelly, and Rosalind Ashford, as well as various other Tempts.

[jobucats]

I suppose it depends on the group's contract. In her first book, Mary Wilson wrote that their contract stated that if a member chose to leave, her replacement would be chosen by Motown. Also, if a group member was to be fired, only Motown could do it.

Re the Tempts, it sounds like they had more control. Early on, original member Eldridge Bryant was fired after attitude problems and a violent incident with Paul. In his book, Otis wrote that when things came to a head with David, the other four members drew up a legal document relieving David of his responsibilities to the group.

Other group members who were dismissed include Cindy Birdsong, Betty Kelly, and Rosalind Ashford, as well as various other Tempts.

Thank you, Reese. I 'thought' I had read the same regarding the female group's contract restricting the members from have much say in firing or hiring.

If the Temptations had such a similar contract, it appears that the four members aggressively took matters in their own hands to fire David. Just as one of the members of the famous female group was jeopardizing integrity of the group with her behaviors, so was David. Berry most likely was pleased to release David to save the Temptation's integrity.

[BayouMotownMan]

It depended on the group and the time frame you are discussing

In the 60s Motown had the standard contracts where they usually owned the group name and had to approve a termination and the replacement. When Mary Wells defected at the height of her career in 1964, Motown tightened controls considerably. Obvious exemptions would be family groups like the Pips or Jacksons. But even in those circumstances, Motown had to approve the termination and replacement, if not originate those changes.

Of course he gave more freedoms to male groups being the chauvanist Gordy always was.

In the 60s had Mary and Florence or Cindy gone to Gordy to demand Ross's termination they would have been laughed out of the building. They knew it too. As Ross reminded everyone on the Tonight Show, the other girls were expendable, she was not. In the case of the Vandellas, Martha being the lead made the decisions but Motown had to approve. There was no leader of the Marvelettes and Motown just kept them going for name value and they decided who was or wasn't in that group. Four Tops controlled themselves, Smokey obviously controlled his group. But if they recorded for Motown, Motown had final say.

Going into the 70s, the veteran groups such as the Miracles sans Smokey, The Tempts and Supremes were given independence and formed companies on their own to make these determinations. After getting flack from Motown for re-hiring Cindy Birdsong and hiring new girl Scherrie Payne, Mary and Pedro quickly formed Supremes Inc. They made all the personnel decisions. Motown gave them full control knowing this would ultimately kill off the group, which it did.

In 1968, four of the Temptations agreed on the firing of David Ruffin. The legal document that was mentioned earlier was done with a Motown attorney AT the offices of Motown. In the 70s, Otis and Melvin made personnel decisions. A lot of this came about because Motown was now so large that the company delegated authority to founding members. During the recording sessions for the A Song For You lp. Damon Harris was acting up and Gordy told Otis and Melvin to replace him. They did. Going forward as Melvin's health declined and his death came, Otis took over the group. And when that happened The Temptations have been a revolving door of members. If any one member is getting too much attention or wants more money, Otis shows him the door.

In other situations, Motown controlled who was in High Inergy, yet Rick James decided who was in the Mary Jane Girls. So, again, it depends on the act.

[jsmith]

Surely the problem within the Temptations was always that the lead singers [[apart from Eddie) weren't original members of the group, so were only on a weekly salary. Being the guys [[David, Dennis, etc. etc.) who's voices were the 'main selling point' of the group's 45s but they didn't really benefit from the hits or the fees coming in following the hits really pissed them off.
David turned to drugs, which only worsened his attitude problem about being 'under valued'. Dennis quit the group at least three times, once quitting the music biz altogether & becoming a labourer. Others who took on lead vocal duties were treated the same, so the group membership became a revolving door.
Others may think differently, but I made a lot more effort to see the group featuring David, Eddie, Dennis, David Sea & Nate Evans than the official group... I never went to see Otis's sorry bunch.

[BayouMotownMan]

I don't think Dennis ever quit the group I think he was sacked all three times. I am certain the second and third time that was the case. He might have quit the first time but as I recall there was a squabble over money for songs he participated in writing. But to my memory Dennis, like David, had a substance problem and that was the basis of the terminations.

One of the biggest problems the Temptations had was Otis. After the trouble David caused by having an overly inflated ego with all the hit, Otis would just panic whenever a lead singer started getting too much attention and would can them. When a lead singer finally realized he was doing the brunt of the work and Otis was getting most of the money this also became a persistent issue.

[floyjoy678]

I was never a fan of Otis. Something about him just comes off skeevy to me. I'm sure he felt threatened by David, Dennis and Eddie and their talent.

I am surprised Martha had leverage to get Betty and Rosalind out of the Vandellas. I imagine by that point, Berry didn't care too much about who was in the Vandellas. They had already gone through changes before when Annette left and it didn't seem to hurt them.

[reese]

I am surprised Martha had leverage to get Betty and Rosalind out of the Vandellas. I imagine by that point, Berry didn't care too much about who was in the Vandellas. They had already gone through changes before when Annette left and it didn't seem to hurt them.

In the new book BUT WILL YOU LOVE ME TOMORROW?, all Vandellas except Lois are quoted. Rosalind says she had no input when new members like Betty and Lois came into the group.

Rosalind also said that she was told by the company that she wasn't a lead singer and they couldn't do anything with her as a solo. But with Martha, they could put any two girls behind her and continue. Note: I'm paraphrasing Rosalind's comments.

[NativeNuYorker]

In the new book BUT WILL YOU LOVE ME TOMORROW?, all Vandellas except Lois are quoted. Rosalind says she had no input when new members like Betty and Lois came into the group.

Rosalind also said that she was told by the company that she wasn't a lead singer and they couldn't do anything with her as a solo. But with Martha, they could put any two girls behind her and continue. Note: I'm paraphrasing Rosalind's comments.

This is off topic on this interesting thread, but would you recommend "But Will You Love me Tomorrow?: An Oral History of the ’60s Girl Groups?" Is there new information or rehash of what can be found on YT or their biographies?

[reese]

This is off topic on this interesting thread, but would you recommend "But Will You Love me Tomorrow?: An Oral History of the ’60s Girl Groups?" Is there new information or rehash of what can be found on YT or their biographies?

A lot of it is covered in other books. In the introduction, they note that some of the quotes were taken from other sources. Myself, I enjoyed it quite a bit as it covered groups that I knew little about, like the Cookies, the Bobbettes, etc., plus there was more recent info on groups like the Vandellas, Shirelles, etc.

[jobeterob]

In the new book BUT WILL YOU LOVE ME TOMORROW?, all Vandellas except Lois are quoted. Rosalind says she had no input when new members like Betty and Lois came into the group.

Rosalind also said that she was told by the company that she wasn't a lead singer and they couldn't do anything with her as a solo. But with Martha, they could put any two girls behind her and continue. Note: I'm paraphrasing Rosalind's comments.

I wonder if Mary, Florence and Cindy got told similar things

Otis’ bio sure paints a different picture than these comments

I’m always surprised by how a guy who didn’t really sing took the Temptations such a long distance yet Mary Wilson, who could sing more than Otis, wasn’t able to carry the Supremes anywhere near as far. Some other abilities must have been at play.

[floyjoy678]

I wonder if Mary, Florence and Cindy got told similar things

Otis’ bio sure paints a different picture than these comments

I’m always surprised by how a guy who didn’t really sing took the Temptations such a long distance yet Mary Wilson, who could sing more than Otis, wasn’t able to carry the Supremes anywhere near as far. Some other abilities must have been at play.

Except Florence was offered a solo contract by Motown and Mary was eventually as well. We're talking oranges and apples here.

Well one big difference is Otis is a man and Mary was a woman. Otis, knowing he's not a lead singer, fought harder to keep the Temptations going because he knew without them he's nothing. Where Mary knew if the Supremes faded, she'd do well for herself and she did.

[floyjoy678]

This is off topic on this interesting thread, but would you recommend "But Will You Love me Tomorrow?: An Oral History of the ’60s Girl Groups?" Is there new information or rehash of what can be found on YT or their biographies?

I highly recommend it. Besides being a Supremes fan, I'm also a huge Ronettes fan. I enjoyed reading quotes from Ronnie and Nedra. Also learned some new things about the Crystals that I had never read before.

[NativeNuYorker]

I highly recommend it. Besides being a Supremes fan, I'm also a huge Ronettes fan. I enjoyed reading quotes from Ronnie and Nedra. Also learned some new things about the Crystals that I had never read before.

Thank you. I will order it. I hope it comes with photos. I forgot to ask.