DRATS Progression

[RanRan79]

I also wouldn't be surprised if Someday hit big because it was advertised as Diana's swan song with the Supremes. It also was released at the right time: the end of the sixties.

I think "Someday" was just destined for what it became. Everything aligned up right.

First and foremost, it's just a damn great song, no matter what. The track is brilliant. Diana's lead is terrific, and Johnny's inclusion sent everything over the top.

The message of the song was very personal to a lot of people. The war was waging. Sons, brothers, husbands, friends were going off, many never coming back. "Someday" hit a lot of people where it counted.

It was a great mood to end a turbulent, noteworthy decade. Absolutely perfect.

And then there's the group itself. Diana moving on, the Supremes moving on, the hopeful futures of both. "Someday We'll Be Together" just made all the sense in the world.

[sup_fan]

well they do say that timing is key. a sound, a style - these'll very likely have different impacts at different times. i'm sure some of the sentimentality helped drive Someday up the charts. but it is just a high quality song. very different from the other Supremes material

[jobeterob]

I've often wondered why Mary wanted that elusive recording contract. Other than "One Night With You" and "Turn Around", nothing she recorded from 1979 until her death was all that exciting or showcased her true talents. Mary was, more than anything, an entertainer and carved out a pretty decent 40 year "solo" career.

It would have meant more money in that era and it may have made her an in demand star again

[Boogiedown]

.....someday we'll to be together ......suuure .....just like we're "together" on this release ....


Diana has no intention of ever getting within a 100 feet again of these broads ....


her acting now in full swing and at its best on this recording ....

[sup_fan]

.....someday we'll to be together ......suuure .....just like we're "together" on this release ....


Diana has no intention of ever getting within a 100 feet again of these broads ....


her acting now in full swing and at its best on this recording ....

hey - i bet in 1968 she never dreamed of having a love child. but then fast forward several years...

[Boogiedown]

oh my !!!!

[jobeterob]

hey - i bet in 1968 she never dreamed of having a love child. but then fast forward several years...

But it didn’t have to bear a name of shame

[floyjoy678]

It's not a bad song. I think it would have worked as Diana's solo debut as well to be honest. Although if you ask me, she should have went solo after Love Child. That was her big chance to take the leap and I'm surprised it wasn't taken advantage of.

[sup_fan]

It's not a bad song. I think it would have worked as Diana's solo debut as well to be honest. Although if you ask me, she should have went solo after Love Child. That was her big chance to take the leap and I'm surprised it wasn't taken advantage of.

my guess is that there just wasn't enough accomplished yet. Berry wanted to set her up for movies, hollywood, broadway. She was excellent on TCB which could have been her finale, send-off. But even though GIT sucked as a special, she really came into her own as the Mistress of Ceremonies, leading the whole event. plus they wanted to further cement her in tv gigs by herself, bigger club events. They created the whole Sunshine segment of the show - would love to know when it was added and when they started to do the audience participation.

[reese]

They created the whole Sunshine segment of the show - would love to know when it was added and when they started to do the audience participation.

I think audience participation might have started with LOVE CHILD. On THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE, during their performance of the song, Diana called children on stage to do the latest dances. I've also seen photos of her doing this at various concerts.

LET THE SUNSHINE IN might have been added after LIKE HEP, but I don't know that for sure.

[sup_fan]

I think audience participation might have started with LOVE CHILD. On THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE, during their performance of the song, Diana called children on stage to do the latest dances. I've also seen photos of her doing this at various concerts.

LET THE SUNSHINE IN might have been added after LIKE HEP, but I don't know that for sure.

good point! just saw the HP clip again and thought the same thing. plus it was great for Diana's public persona - interacting all nice with the kids and all. it was a rather fun segment on the tv show.

the LTSI album was originally to be released at No Matter What Sign You Are and there are mockups of the original art. when Sign failed, my guess is that they changed the lp title to the more recognizable Sunshine. the LTSI track on the album is a shortened version of the one from Like Hep. I don't know if they had always intended to include the song or if, when redoing the album title, they added it

[reese]

the LTSI album was originally to be released at No Matter What Sign You Are and there are mockups of the original art. when Sign failed, my guess is that they changed the lp title to the more recognizable Sunshine. the LTSI track on the album is a shortened version of the one from Like Hep. I don't know if they had always intended to include the song or if, when redoing the album title, they added it

I wouldn't be surprised if they always intended to include it, as they also had Dinah Shore write the liner notes, in which she referenced LIKE HEP.

[Boogiedown]

hey - i bet in 1968 she never dreamed of having a love child. but then fast forward several years...

well and then she recorded I'M COMING OUT and a few years later .... ...???

[blackguy69]

Doubt the name change of the album was because of the failure of NMWSYA seeing it was released on May 6 and the album was released on May 26. I’m guessing the name change was in effort to cash in on the psychedelic faze at Motown.

good point! just saw the HP clip again and thought the same thing. plus it was great for Diana's public persona - interacting all nice with the kids and all. it was a rather fun segment on the tv show.

the LTSI album was originally to be released at No Matter What Sign You Are and there are mockups of the original art. when Sign failed, my guess is that they changed the lp title to the more recognizable Sunshine. the LTSI track on the album is a shortened version of the one from Like Hep. I don't know if they had always intended to include the song or if, when redoing the album title, they added it

[midnightman]

well they do say that timing is key. a sound, a style - these'll very likely have different impacts at different times. i'm sure some of the sentimentality helped drive Someday up the charts. but it is just a high quality song. very different from the other Supremes material

Yeah definitely timing cause if it wasn't pegged as the "final" Supremes song and just another single to release, it would've probably suffered a similar fate as The Composer but as RanRan said the song's message definitely related to the times, especially those still fighting at Vietnam at the time.

[midnightman]

It's not a bad song. I think it would have worked as Diana's solo debut as well to be honest. Although if you ask me, she should have went solo after Love Child. That was her big chance to take the leap and I'm surprised it wasn't taken advantage of.

It wouldn't have worked. Berry tried to have Diana leave in 1967 but after he had Marlene Barrow replace Flo before the Copacabana only to be told by the manager to bring Flo back so he realized it wasn't the time. 1969 was the right time for Diana to do like Snagglepuss and make an exit from the Supremes, stage left. Lol

[midnightman]

The third movie was to be Hot Snow...
I think I read someone was paid to write a script ,took the money n ran.
The project fell apart.

Oh was it? Hmm, then that just tells me after that happened, Diana and ABC just simply parted ways?

[midnightman]

I also wouldn't be surprised if Someday hit big because it was advertised as Diana's swan song with the Supremes. It also was released at the right time: the end of the sixties.

Yeah that's pretty much why it succeeded though the news of Diana leaving wasn't as a stunning announcement as the Beatles' breakup left but still devastating [[devastating enough for Luther Vandross to nearly repeat twelfth grade when he heard Diana was leaving. ).

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

68/69 was just a car crash.

Diana was supposedly Berry's #1 priority but the Motown strategy seemed to be 'just keep throwing darts and maybe one will land in the bullseye'.

The only non-Temptation singles worthy of release after the H-D-H material ran out were Love Child, Someday and probably No Matter which deserved to do better on the charts.

Even with the Tempts, Hitsville US made some bad decisions. Once again Motown UK [[well, EMI) chose better single releases [[eg 'I Second That Emotion' rather than 'The Weight').

[Ollie9]

68/69 was just a car crash.

Diana was supposedly Berry's #1 priority but the Motown strategy seemed to be 'just keep throwing darts and maybe one will land in the bullseye'.

The only non-Temptation singles worthy of release after the H-D-H material ran out were Love Child, Someday and probably No Matter which deserved to do better on the charts.

Even with the Tempts, Hitsville US made some bad decisions. Once again Motown UK [[well, EMI) chose better single releases [[eg 'I Second That Emotion' rather than 'The Weight').

I agree regarding “No Matter What Sign You Are”. It was a catchy little number that really should have gone at least top twenty. I prefer it to “Forever Came Today” and “Composer”.
“The Weight” along with “Run Run Run” has to be two of the worst Supremes single choices ever.

[daviddh]

I think, as I recall, maybe George or Andy can jump in here ..
The Mamas and Pappas had fired Michelle from the group and went on tour...
The fans revolted, and they cancelled the rest of the tour .
When they returned home , Michelle was brought back, but ,like the Supremes only lasted two more years.. I think by 1970 ,they were done.
I think I read when BG found out about fans protesting the groups firing of Michelle he regretted his decision.
The plan was to bring Florence back, but I think she declined to return.
The original plan was a farewell tour after Reflections.
Flo was gone
HDH was gone
Motown was freaking out.

[daviddh]

Can't believe BG let HDH go
No plan B.
All the hits they wrote and produced.
Somebody was out to lunch.
Year after year, so many artist would leave as contracts were coming up for renewal.

[RanRan79]

I think I read when BG found out about fans protesting the groups firing of Michelle he regretted his decision.
The plan was to bring Florence back, but I think she declined to return.
The original plan was a farewell tour after Reflections.
Flo was gone
HDH was gone
Motown was freaking out.

Not disputing that you read that, but this never happened.

Once Flo was gone, she was gone. Gordy floated the idea of Diana leaving the group in 66 and wisely determined Diana was not ready. Plans were set in motion to turn the Supremes into DRATS. DRATS was a test run for Diana Ross' solo career. There's no way Gordy thought this test would be a few months. Chances are he had already mapped out Diana remaining with the group for the duration of the decade.

[RanRan79]

Can't believe BG let HDH go
No plan B.
All the hits they wrote and produced.
Somebody was out to lunch.
Year after year, so many artist would leave as contracts were coming up for renewal.

Absolutely agree about there not being a plan B. Whenever the writing was on the wall, Gordy should have gone into overdrive, pairing the group up with it's next hit writers and producers so that in the event things didn't work out with HDH, the Supremes wouldn't be left floundering.

[TheMotownManiac]

This may have been true in St. Louis, but in the Washington DC area there were no posters, no displays and Mary's album was not even in the New releases rack. You had to go to The Supremes section [[she did not even have her own at that time in most stores) and see if they had a copy. Red Hot was played in the discos, but it seemed to be filler rather than one of those songs that got everyone moving. Her album did not get any great promotion. I do agree they were not the correct songs for her. They didn't do anything to establish her voice in the listeners ear.

The promotional material got sent to the stores, if the stores put them up or not, it’s up to them for the most part. I have a feeling whoever worked this area was aggressive because it was up in several stores. I was quite impressed how much visibility it was getting for an album that I knew wasn’t gonna go anywhere. I have friends all over the country that saw the promotional material. And somewho never did. I never thought it was a bad album, but I thought it was a Nothing album. And of course she didn’t have her own section because she was basically unknown and completely unproven and artists with one release generally went in the alphabetical’s. Even Martha usually did not have her own bin, unless they were mixing her with a Vandellas. However, most stores at that time were not carrying anything by the Vandellas, so she just got filed under R. Even though she had multiple releases in the 70s, they were always discontinued and long gone before the next one came out, so there was nothing to put in her section.

either way, it’s a sad tale. Mary trying to make her livelihood in an industry that was not welcoming her, yet she knew she was talented. Motown playing games with her, assuming they were, wasn’t helpful. If her album had shown signs of life, they would’ve followed it up. And as we’ve sent a million times, when she got her show together with the correct material, she was very good.

[TheMotownManiac]

Not disputing that you read that, but this never happened.

Once Flo was gone, she was gone. Gordy floated the idea of Diana leaving the group in 66 and wisely determined Diana was not ready. Plans were set in motion to turn the Supremes into DRATS. DRATS was a test run for Diana Ross' solo career. There's no way Gordy thought this test would be a few months. Chances are he had already mapped out Diana remaining with the group for the duration of the decade.

I think you nailed it perfectly.

[TheMotownManiac]

Yeah that's pretty much why it succeeded though the news of Diana leaving wasn't as a stunning announcement as the Beatles' breakup left but still devastating [[devastating enough for Luther Vandross to nearly repeat twelfth grade when he heard Diana was leaving. ).

you are leaving out the fact that it is a fantastic 45. It was perfect and it sounded perfect on the radio. People don’t buy records because it’s at the right time of the year or the right time of the decade they part with their heart into money, because they want to put the record on their spindle and listen to it over and over again. The record stormed out of the gate and zooming up the chart weeks before the announcement. Platinum 45s were rare back, then just like they are now, and it got a lot of support from radio because it was getting a lot of fan reaction. Four weeks number one on the R&B chart.

[marybrewster]

The promotional material got sent to the stores, if the stores put them up or not, it’s up to them for the most part. I have a feeling whoever worked this area was aggressive because it was up in several stores. I was quite impressed how much visibility it was getting for an album that I knew wasn’t gonna go anywhere. I have friends all over the country that saw the promotional material. And somewho never did. I never thought it was a bad album, but I thought it was a Nothing album. And of course she didn’t have her own section because she was basically unknown and completely unproven and artists with one release generally went in the alphabetical’s. Even Martha usually did not have her own bin, unless they were mixing her with a Vandellas. However, most stores at that time were not carrying anything by the Vandellas, so she just got filed under R. Even though she had multiple releases in the 70s, they were always discontinued and long gone before the next one came out, so there was nothing to put in her section.

either way, it’s a sad tale. Mary trying to make her livelihood in an industry that was not welcoming her, yet she knew she was talented. Motown playing games with her, assuming they were, wasn’t helpful. If her album had shown signs of life, they would’ve followed it up. And as we’ve sent a million times, when she got her show together with the correct material, she was very good.

In my humble opinion, two things happened:

RED HOT just wasn't a great representation of who Mary Wilson, singer, was. Not only that, but it just wasn't a great song, period. I've always thought MIDNIGHT DANCER was much stronger and more reflective of the disco counterparts being released at the time.

Also, by the end of 1979, when MARY WILSON was released, disco was on the way out. If you look at the Billboard Charts, NO MORE TEARS hit in late 1979, and FUNKYTOWN hit in the summer of 1980; everything else that hit #1 wouldn't be anything I'd consider "disco". Not to mention the big DEATH TO DISCO in the summer of 1979.

Would Mary fared better if her solo lp was released a year earlier? Or what if she'd waited out the disco craze and released something highlighting her rocker/ballad abilities in 1980?

It's definitely grown on me over the years, but MARY WILSON just isn't Mary Wilson.

[Boogiedown]

You can't blame the rock centered music industry for hating a new genre that threatened to over take their very livelihood, but if they were resistant to playing even the best that disco had to offer, they sure weren't eager to bother with yet another disco tune that was being received as inferior even within the disco arena.

There were plenty of female talents who gave disco their all who went unnoticed pop wise .....Linda Clifford, Loleatta Holloway, Grace Jones , Claudja Barry, Madleen Kane on and on ....

So no, doing half-assed disco wasn't going to cut it from any angle, no matter who you were or had been ... ....


POPS WE LOVE YOU making the same point as well ....

[RanRan79]

In my humble opinion, two things happened:

RED HOT just wasn't a great representation of who Mary Wilson, singer, was. Not only that, but it just wasn't a great song, period. I've always thought MIDNIGHT DANCER was much stronger and more reflective of the disco counterparts being released at the time.

Also, by the end of 1979, when MARY WILSON was released, disco was on the way out. If you look at the Billboard Charts, NO MORE TEARS hit in late 1979, and FUNKYTOWN hit in the summer of 1980; everything else that hit #1 wouldn't be anything I'd consider "disco". Not to mention the big DEATH TO DISCO in the summer of 1979.

Would Mary fared better if her solo lp was released a year earlier? Or what if she'd waited out the disco craze and released something highlighting her rocker/ballad abilities in 1980?

It's definitely grown on me over the years, but MARY WILSON just isn't Mary Wilson.

It's possible Mary's album would have done better in 1978, but doubtful. I also don't buy the backlash and downward trend of disco impacting the album either. I really think it just came down to the album not being anything special. I agree about "Midnight Dancer" being the single over "Red Hot". I also put my money on "Pick Up the Pieces" being Mary's best bet for a hit single of all the songs she recorded for the album. But listening to the lp, there isn't a single song that screams "monster hit". The album as constructed was probably never going to do Mary many favors, regardless of how much promotion was given, what year it was released, and the public's feelings about disco.

I do think in Smokey's hands, he may have been able to craft her a winner. I think his style of music was well suited to Mary's strengths. Might have been interesting if she could have hooked up with Lamont Dozier. I can't recall what the deal was with the Holland brothers by this point, but since they had produced a couple of great Mary leads on those last two albums, pairing them up for a full project where they could concentrate on Mary may have proved fruitful also.

Her GD tracks in 1980 definitely show signs that the completed projected very well could have gone on to present Mary Wilson without the Supremes baggage.

[marybrewster]

It's possible Mary's album would have done better in 1978, but doubtful. I also don't buy the backlash and downward trend of disco impacting the album either. I really think it just came down to the album not being anything special. I agree about "Midnight Dancer" being the single over "Red Hot". I also put my money on "Pick Up the Pieces" being Mary's best bet for a hit single of all the songs she recorded for the album. But listening to the lp, there isn't a single song that screams "monster hit". The album as constructed was probably never going to do Mary many favors, regardless of how much promotion was given, what year it was released, and the public's feelings about disco.

I do think in Smokey's hands, he may have been able to craft her a winner. I think his style of music was well suited to Mary's strengths. Might have been interesting if she could have hooked up with Lamont Dozier. I can't recall what the deal was with the Holland brothers by this point, but since they had produced a couple of great Mary leads on those last two albums, pairing them up for a full project where they could concentrate on Mary may have proved fruitful also.

Her GD tracks in 1980 definitely show signs that the completed projected very well could have gone on to present Mary Wilson without the Supremes baggage.

The other elephant in the room is that Mary's contract for a solo album was Motown's way of getting out a lawsuit with her. They were NEVER going to support this project 100%. They were NEVER going to promote to the extent of a "new" artist. They were going through the motions with EVERY intention to drop her as soon as they could. How foolish of Mary for not seeing what was so obvious.

What would make interesting conversation is: what if Mary would have hit? Would there have been a second release?

[Motown Eddie]

The other elephant in the room is that Mary's contract for a solo album was Motown's way of getting out a lawsuit with her. They were NEVER going to support this project 100%. They were NEVER going to promote to the extent of a "new" artist. They were going through the motions with EVERY intention to drop her as soon as they could. How foolish of Mary for not seeing what was so obvious.

What would make interesting conversation is: what if Mary would have hit? Would there have been a second release?

It's very possible that if Mary Wilson's LP was a hit [or produced a hit single], Motown would've given her a second release. One thing to consider is that Motown Records was in deep financial trouble at the end of the '70s thanks in part to all of the Artists that left the company [not to mention that both Diana Ross & Marvin Gaye would also be leaving at the start of the '80s] so they needed all the help they could get. Unfortunately, Mary's LP flopped and gave Motown an excuse to drop her from the label.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Mary had always stated that she felt she sang ballads best. Her 1979 debut was filled with disco. There were other songs that may have done better than Red Hot-such as I Love a Warm Summer Night, Pick Up The Pieces, Midnight Dancer and You're The Light That Guides My Way. None of them would have really been a hit but how foolish that Motown didn't see the potential of the 4 songs she recorded for her second LP. Mary was in desperate financial straits so she signed even though the company clearly signed her so she could drop her lawsuit. Disco wasn't Mary's forte but she definitely planned to do something else, when she found out how little Motown thought of her when she was dropped after presenting songs that actually were far better than her debut and possible hits.

[sup_fan]

The promotional material got sent to the stores, if the stores put them up or not, it’s up to them for the most part. I have a feeling whoever worked this area was aggressive because it was up in several stores. I was quite impressed how much visibility it was getting for an album that I knew wasn’t gonna go anywhere. I have friends all over the country that saw the promotional material. And somewho never did. I never thought it was a bad album, but I thought it was a Nothing album. And of course she didn’t have her own section because she was basically unknown and completely unproven and artists with one release generally went in the alphabetical’s. Even Martha usually did not have her own bin, unless they were mixing her with a Vandellas. However, most stores at that time were not carrying anything by the Vandellas, so she just got filed under R. Even though she had multiple releases in the 70s, they were always discontinued and long gone before the next one came out, so there was nothing to put in her section.

either way, it’s a sad tale. Mary trying to make her livelihood in an industry that was not welcoming her, yet she knew she was talented. Motown playing games with her, assuming they were, wasn’t helpful. If her album had shown signs of life, they would’ve followed it up. And as we’ve sent a million times, when she got her show together with the correct material, she was very good.

i wonder if even she had had a hit if motown would have kept her. berry was 100% done with her and wanted her gone. i would assume he even wanted her punished for all of the angst she'd stirred up with the Sups and with the lawsuit. even when Mary had had a hit while in the Sups [[floy joy) they had no interest in following up or doing anything with her. when she wanted to reform the group after J and L left and be the lead singer, motown wasn't interested. and there was NO way berry was gonna let her be the lead after Diana left. for whatever reason, motown never had 1 iota of interest in her voice. whether it was 1962, 1967, 1970, 1972, 1974, 1978 or 1980.

[bradsupremes]

i wonder if even she had had a hit if motown would have kept her. berry was 100% done with her and wanted her gone. i would assume he even wanted her punished for all of the angst she'd stirred up with the Sups and with the lawsuit. even when Mary had had a hit while in the Sups [[floy joy) they had no interest in following up or doing anything with her. when she wanted to reform the group after J and L left and be the lead singer, motown wasn't interested. and there was NO way berry was gonna let her be the lead after Diana left. for whatever reason, motown never had 1 iota of interest in her voice. whether it was 1962, 1967, 1970, 1972, 1974, 1978 or 1980.

As previously pointed out, Motown of 1980 was a lot different from Motown of 1972. A lot of acts had left between that time [[Four Tops, Gladys, Jacksons, Marvin and Diana had it with Berry were out the door, Temptations left for a brief period). Motown was struggling hit wise so it wouldn’t surprise me if Mary had a huge hit from her first album that Motown would have asked for a second album and more material. Despite the personal grudges, this was a business and if a product from your brand is making money, you keep it and get as much out of it as possible.

I understand why Motown dropped her after the first album flopped but they were incredibly foolish to not see the potential in those four tracks with Gus Dudgeon. If Mary was ever going to have a hit, it was with those songs. “Love Talk” and “Save Me” would have been solid R&B hits.

[sup_fan]

As previously pointed out, Motown of 1980 was a lot different from Motown of 1972. A lot of acts had left between that time [[Four Tops, Gladys, Jacksons, Marvin and Diana had it with Berry were out the door, Temptations left for a brief period). Motown was struggling hit wise so it wouldn’t surprise me if Mary had a huge hit from her first album that Motown would have asked for a second album and more material. Despite the personal grudges, this was a business and if a product from your brand is making money, you keep it and get as much out of it as possible.

I understand why Motown dropped her after the first album flopped but they were incredibly foolish to not see the potential in those four tracks with Gus Dudgeon. If Mary was ever going to have a hit, it was with those songs. “Love Talk” and “Save Me” would have been solid R&B hits.

but motown similarly tossed aside david ruffin and martha in the late 60s when motown was highly vulnerable due to the loss of HDH. both of those artists had a mountain of problems and issues and I've always thought that was one of the big reasons why their careers went cold. Imagine if Motown had brought in Richard Perry to do that amazing solo album on Martha? that's probably some of her best singing EVER but motown had no vision or interest in her. and she was a hell of a lot more bankable than Mary Wilson

[jobeterob]

These posts are making me wonder about some of the negativity that comes from some of these singers, some of whom were very successful.

The worst was Aretha Franklin and it might be somewhat understandable because she had babies as a child and a fractured family and difficult upbringing.

The next worse is Gladys Knight and I don’t know what causes her to seem unhappy.

But occasionally, it sounds like Mary Wilson was also pissed off enough at Motown and Pedro and Berry and Diana and the FLOS and no recording contract and no hits etc.

Success doesn’t bring happiness and all of these women had levels of success. Some it doesn’t even bring financial security but it appears Mary at least had a proper Will which Aretha Franklin couldn’t manage.

[sup_fan]

These posts are making me wonder about some of the negativity that comes from some of these singers, some of whom were very successful.

The worst was Aretha Franklin and it might be somewhat understandable because she had babies as a child and a fractured family and difficult upbringing.

The next worse is Gladys Knight and I don’t know what causes her to seem unhappy.

But occasionally, it sounds like Mary Wilson was also pissed off enough at Motown and Pedro and Berry and Diana and the FLOS and no recording contract and no hits etc.

Success doesn’t bring happiness and all of these women had levels of success. Some it doesn’t even bring financial security but it appears Mary at least had a proper Will which Aretha Franklin couldn’t manage.

Randy made a comment in one of the books that Mary was known to make foolish business decisions. I don't know why Berry really never any 1 glip of interest in Mary as a singer. some have said her voice wasn't commercial enough. some have said all mary wanted to do was party and didn't work [[back in the 60s). some have said her voice was more suited to other non-pop genres. my guess is that it was a combination of events and circumstances that pretty much brought about the situation at motown of their have 0 interest in her. by the time she was personally ready for a solo career, she was frankly too old to probably interest other labels.

so now you're professional life has been greatly curtailed. partly by your choices and partly by choices made outside of your control. of course that'll cause quite a bit of unhappiness and bitterness.

mary also jumped onto the 80s bandwagon of penning a sensational "Tell All" book. she certainly wasn't the only one to do so. but she definitely took on an approach of "being the victim" and she created a bit of a brand for herself around this.

[marybrewster]

Randy made a comment in one of the books that Mary was known to make foolish business decisions. I don't know why Berry really never any 1 glip of interest in Mary as a singer. some have said her voice wasn't commercial enough. some have said all mary wanted to do was party and didn't work [[back in the 60s). some have said her voice was more suited to other non-pop genres. my guess is that it was a combination of events and circumstances that pretty much brought about the situation at motown of their have 0 interest in her. by the time she was personally ready for a solo career, she was frankly too old to probably interest other labels.

so now you're professional life has been greatly curtailed. partly by your choices and partly by choices made outside of your control. of course that'll cause quite a bit of unhappiness and bitterness.

mary also jumped onto the 80s bandwagon of penning a sensational "Tell All" book. she certainly wasn't the only one to do so. but she definitely took on an approach of "being the victim" and she created a bit of a brand for herself around this.

Wasn't Mary THE bandwagon though?

[Ollie9]

i wonder if even she had had a hit if motown would have kept her. berry was 100% done with her and wanted her gone. i would assume he even wanted her punished for all of the angst she'd stirred up with the Sups and with the lawsuit. even when Mary had had a hit while in the Sups [[floy joy) they had no interest in following up or doing anything with her. when she wanted to reform the group after J and L left and be the lead singer, motown wasn't interested. and there was NO way berry was gonna let her be the lead after Diana left. for whatever reason, motown never had 1 iota of interest in her voice. whether it was 1962, 1967, 1970, 1972, 1974, 1978 or 1980.

I agree. BG knew that as a solo Mary’s voice held limited pop potential and wanted rid no matter what. I think the only thing that might have changed his mind would have been a massive as opposed to minor hit. Remaining with the label really was a total waste of her time and talent.
Signing with a jazz label was the way to go, a genre of music where her voice really does sound special.

[RanRan79]

These posts are making me wonder about some of the negativity that comes from some of these singers, some of whom were very successful.

The worst was Aretha Franklin and it might be somewhat understandable because she had babies as a child and a fractured family and difficult upbringing.

The next worse is Gladys Knight and I don’t know what causes her to seem unhappy.

But occasionally, it sounds like Mary Wilson was also pissed off enough at Motown and Pedro and Berry and Diana and the FLOS and no recording contract and no hits etc.

Success doesn’t bring happiness and all of these women had levels of success. Some it doesn’t even bring financial security but it appears Mary at least had a proper Will which Aretha Franklin couldn’t manage.

Isn't that life, though? Of course money doesn't make people happy, even though we often think it does. Look at Diana. All those stories about her nastiness toward other people, even though she was seemingly sitting on top of the world. And who can forget her drowning her sorrows in alcohol and then getting behind the wheel, putting not only her life but the lives of others in mortal danger.

These people are human and subject to human emotions and flaws and all of that. They all have issues. I don't believe for one moment that Aretha spent every day upset and angry. I still don't believe Gladys is this unhappy person you seem to think she is. Mary was pissed at times, and in many ways rightfully so, but she sure did seem to swing on out of here, on top of the world, hitless but very much loved.

They live life. None of them are perfect. They all have good and bad days. And I'd venture that more often than not, these folks are giving less attention to the negativity we the public seem to think they sit in hour after hour, day after day.

[RanRan79]

Wasn't Mary THE bandwagon though?

I think the trend started before her book. Hers was certainly among the gold standard of the so called genre.

[RanRan79]

I agree. BG knew that as a solo Mary’s voice held limited pop potential and wanted rid no matter what. I think the only thing that might have changed his mind would have been a massive as opposed to minor hit. Remaining with the label really was a total waste of her time and talent.
Signing with a jazz label was the way to go, a genre of music where her voice really does sound special.

I think Gordy just simply didn't care for Mary's voice enough to take an interest. I don't think pop appeal or any of that had anything to do with it, especially when you consider the various voices that he signed to Motown throughout its history. Remember, Mary was a Motown artist because she signed with the Supremes. And we all know Diana was the one Berry was the biggest fan of. Believe it or not, he also seemed to dig Florence as a singer more than Mary, producing a few early tunes on her, including their second single, and greenlighting her "People" lead for years, while Mary got part of "Enjoy Yourself" for a limited run until "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" years later. There's no evidence Berry was the least bit concerned with Mary, aside from the one time he produced "Baby Don't Go". Perhaps he just didn't care for her singing. After all, he has opinions just like the rest of us.

Mary's early solo turn was wasted at Motown, agreed. I think those GD tracks showcase someone who didn't have to turn to jazz at that point. She was capable of making "pop" records if she was paired with someone who could play up her strengths, like any other artist. Mary's jazz mistake was not turning to that direction in the 90s when any kind of "pop" career chance was pretty much firmly in her rear view mirror. But like Diana, she couldn't let it go.

Just think of the kind of musical legacy Mary could have left behind had she turned in that direction.

[Ollie9]

I think Gordy just simply didn't care for Mary's voice enough to take an interest. I don't think pop appeal or any of that had anything to do with it, especially when you consider the various voices that he signed to Motown throughout its history. Remember, Mary was a Motown artist because she signed with the Supremes. And we all know Diana was the one Berry was the biggest fan of. Believe it or not, he also seemed to dig Florence as a singer more than Mary, producing a few early tunes on her, including their second single, and greenlighting her "People" lead for years, while Mary got part of "Enjoy Yourself" for a limited run until "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" years later. There's no evidence Berry was the least bit concerned with Mary, aside from the one time he produced "Baby Don't Go". Perhaps he just didn't care for her singing. After all, he has opinions just like the rest of us.

Mary's early solo turn was wasted at Motown, agreed. I think those GD tracks showcase someone who didn't have to turn to jazz at that point. She was capable of making "pop" records if she was paired with someone who could play up her strengths, like any other artist. Mary's jazz mistake was not turning to that direction in the 90s when any kind of "pop" career chance was pretty much firmly in her rear view mirror. But like Diana, she couldn't let it go.

Just think of the kind of musical legacy Mary could have left behind had she turned in that direction.

I think one of, if not the major stumbling block for Mary would simply have been her age. Thirty four is a little long in the tooth to be starting a solo career in the competitive world of pop, with jazz or easy listening offing more opportunities.
It might have served her better either remaining with the Supremes for a couple more years or leaving alongside Jean and Linda though i consider that would have been a huge gamble.

[sup_fan]

Wasn't Mary THE bandwagon though?

i'm not sure of all of the books but Call Her Miss Ross, Raynoma's book, Tony Turner's book. and those are just the motown ones. let's not forget the mega book of Mommie Dearest!! lol and then there was Bette Davis' daughter's book. i'm sure there were lots of others. this was the age of the tabloid press so "tabloid books" were a hot thing too.

[sup_fan]

so we all seem to agree that mary's solo deal with motown was never probably going to amount to much. we know she was trying to get a new deal with other labels but it never seemed to come to be. at least with any large label that could have really done something.

in 1980 she did the 4 tracks with Gus Dudgeon and i agree with everyone that those were some of her best songs. Green River is rather terrible but whatever. Save Me was absolutely an excellent production and could have been a hit.

my question is then after motown dropped her, why didn't she sign with Gus and Rocket Records? Gus was a MAJOR producer at the time. this wasn't some fly by night shop or some random record guy. there were lots of artists on the label and anyone with an ear would have heard something strong with Save Me and You Danced My Heart. There had to be something else blocking this. mary had the tapes for these songs. going to any other label could have been an option because she had the finished product in her hands. any label could have at least gotten the rights to the song and released it, testing the waters to see if they could get anything in return after having put up next to nothing in terms of costs. but 0 did this.

Mary had a good voice, was a proven entertainer. was she simply demanding the sky in terms of the deal? was she just some insane batshit crazy woman in the studio and burned her reputation [[i doubt this seriously)? was she doing too much coke [[even if this is true which i doubt she's hardly different than most musicians)? did she have a manager negotiating her deal that was just poison?

[RanRan79]

I don't think she was doing much of anything. I don't believe she had a manager, at least not one worth anything. She mentions in her book that she shopped the demos around, but if I'm not mistaken, the point where she mentions this is like two years after the demos were recorded. By then music had changed drastically. Her demos sounded dated.

I also imagine that when she got booted from Motown, it probably took her at least a couple years to really get herself together. Remember she also left Pedro, had to borrow money for a down payment on a home, she had three children she had to take care of [[four if Willie was still with her). Jump starting a music career is really a single woman's domain. It's so much harder on those with small children at home. So there is that.

But overall I think Mary suffered from bad luck and a horrible case of not having direction. She was older than most labels tended to get excited over and she came with baggage. There's also issues with Motown to consider. Gordy was angry enough with Diana to put plans into motion of "sabotaging" her career at RCA by releasing competing Ross products. Could he have been pissed enough at Mary to spread the word in the industry not to touch her? I wouldn't bet against it.

I've pointed it out before, Mary was not one for taking risks. People who don't take risks in the music business tend to be the ones who get overlooked and forgotten. Even taking the Motown solo deal was Mary playing it safe. She had to know that Motown wasn't going to be any more in her corner than they were when she was with the Supremes, in those last days. But that was safer than putting herself out there for other labels to take a crack at. Her self confidence issues were still plaguing her into the 80s, so there was probably some fear of rejection. But you can't fear rejection in the music business if you want results.

Mary appears to never have been able to really figure out how to sale herself and that was to her detriment.

[RanRan79]

Mary made a brief mention of coke in her second book, how it was in the discos and everybody was doing it. The next time we hear about Mary and cocaine is Tall Tales writing about it. As far as I'm concerned, there's no evidence Mary was an addict because Tall Tales is no reliable source.

[Ollie9]

so we all seem to agree that mary's solo deal with motown was never probably going to amount to much. we know she was trying to get a new deal with other labels but it never seemed to come to be. at least with any large label that could have really done something.

in 1980 she did the 4 tracks with Gus Dudgeon and i agree with everyone that those were some of her best songs. Green River is rather terrible but whatever. Save Me was absolutely an excellent production and could have been a hit.

my question is then after motown dropped her, why didn't she sign with Gus and Rocket Records? Gus was a MAJOR producer at the time. this wasn't some fly by night shop or some random record guy. there were lots of artists on the label and anyone with an ear would have heard something strong with Save Me and You Danced My Heart. There had to be something else blocking this. mary had the tapes for these songs. going to any other label could have been an option because she had the finished product in her hands. any label could have at least gotten the rights to the song and released it, testing the waters to see if they could get anything in return after having put up next to nothing in terms of costs. but 0 did this.

Mary had a good voice, was a proven entertainer. was she simply demanding the sky in terms of the deal? was she just some insane batshit crazy woman in the studio and burned her reputation [[i doubt this seriously)? was she doing too much coke [[even if this is true which i doubt she's hardly different than most musicians)? did she have a manager negotiating her deal that was just poison?

For all our speculation, perhaps it really was simply a case of no label willing to take the risk, at least singing those type of songs.
I think the Gus Dudgeon tracks quite dated for that time period, sounding more 77/78. Even more so when compared to say “The Boss” album. Would anyone seriously have rushed to buy a song with cheesy lyrics such as “You Danced My Heart Around The Stars” during the early 80’s. Personally i think no.

[reese]

i'm not sure of all of the books but Call Her Miss Ross, Raynoma's book, Tony Turner's book. and those are just the motown ones. let's not forget the mega book of Mommie Dearest!! lol and then there was Bette Davis' daughter's book. i'm sure there were lots of others. this was the age of the tabloid press so "tabloid books" were a hot thing too.

Kitty Kelley did a bunch of them, on people like Jackie Onassis and Frank Sinatra.