DRATS Progression

[RanRan79]

Piggybacking off of the conversation about DRATS progression and regression from "Love Child" to "The Composer", here's a question:
so does the group continue with this "heavy" material for the duration of DRATS, or should they have transitioned to less heavy but not any less "adult"? And if so, what did they record in 1969 that fit this transition? Is there anything that other artists recorded during this time that you think would have been a great fit for DRATS as a single?

Obviously "Someday We'll Be Together" was intended for Diana's solo career, but it was the perfect sound for DRATS IMO. But between "Love Child" and "Someday", there's room for four or five singles, what do they fill it with?

[reese]

I don't know if I would have had them continue with the "heavy" material. But I think a sense of maturity could have been explored. They were now seasoned young women, miles away from WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO. There was some material recorded during those last years that I think might have done well if they had been released, if only as album tracks.

Unreleased [at the time] material such as STORMY, SWEET THING, THOSE PRECIOUS MEMORIES, IN THE EVENING OF OUR LOVE, WISH I KNEW, and BELIEVE IN ME could have made the LET THE SUNSHINE IN and CREAM OF THE CROP better instead of the disappointment they are to some fans.

[sup_fan]

yeah i don't think the group should have continued with gloom and doom. they would have needed to mix things up. Look what they did with the Temps duet? that was really the first time to mega-groups had joined together [[pun intended lol). it wasn't heavy but it was certainly powerful and big impact

i think the follow up to Love Child should have been Evening Train. yes it was a heavier piece, more soulful. i think it certainly shared elements with LC but without being a silly copy like Shame.

after that, there would have been room for another 2 or maybe 3 songs before Someday. and i'm keeping the same general timeline, even if one of these songs was a hit.

Wish i knew
you gave me love
discover me
can't you see it's me
you're gonna hear from me
I'm so glad i got somebody

[sup_fan]

on the Diana Ross Project website, the author just gushes about Does Your Mama Know About Me? while it's never been a favorite of mine, i do at least think the production and singing is extremely well done.

the original had only just charted recently, so i get it why motown didn't release the Sups version. but the Vancouver's barely made it into the top 30 and that hardly made a huge impression on the US public. perhaps the Sups version could have worked. the lush backing track is definitely right up their alley.

[Boogiedown]

no I think they should have done something really cutting edge like team up with other Motown super groups

oh wait they did do that ....

[sup_fan]

no I think they should have done something really cutting edge like team up with other Motown super groups

oh wait they did eventually do that ....

haha if people at motown had been actually planning things out properly, they would have held IGMYLM for a month or two and then released it after C9 and LC were through. start 1969 off with this massive hit. it would easily have gone #1 it LC and Grapevine weren't in the way.

then maybe release Evening Train, Why must we fall in love and then You Gave Me Love. and finally Someday

[marybrewster]

DRATS scored big with Love Child and later, to a certain degree, I'm Living In Shame. Both are "message" or "story" songs; both could have been made into a TV movie, much like Ode to Billie Joe or Harper Valley PTA.

What about songs like How Long Has that Evening Train Been Gone? or Does Your Mama Know About Me? Maybe Keep an Eye?

[mowsville]

I think sup-fan has got it spot on

[danman869]

There were at least three versions of "I'm So Glad I Got Somebody [Like You Around]" recorded and the released version was #3. I'd love to hear what the other versions sounded like! It was much more funky and soulful than most Supremes songs up to that point. Just wish Mary and Cindy could've been featured in the background [on the released version] instead of The Andantes.

I think "Evening Train" could've been a good choice for a LC follow-up single, too. Again, just wish Mary and Cindy had been used/audible in the background.

[bradsupremes]

I think "Evening Train" could've been a good choice for a LC follow-up single, too. Again, just wish Mary and Cindy had been used/audible in the background.

I'm fairly certain Mary [[and probably Cindy) is on "Evening Train." Ever since I was a kid, I heard her in the mix and to this day I still hear her. The Andantes are definitely in the mix, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had Mary and Cindy singing with them. It wouldn't be the first time.

[TheMotownManiac]

haha if people at motown had been actually planning things out properly, they would have held IGMYLM for a month or two and then released it after C9 and LC were through. start 1969 off with this massive hit. it would easily have gone #1 it LC and Grapevine weren't in the way.

then maybe release Evening Train, Why must we fall in love and then You Gave Me Love. and finally Someday

Motown didn’t have a choice because radio stations already playing IGMYLM And Marvin’s Grapevine so the sales department had to go with that but I don’t think love child had any negative affect on IGMLYM because it absolutely scorched up the chart and, in its fifth week, it swapped places with love child from number seven to number three. Interestingly, while the Supremes had two singles in the top 10, they also had three albums in the top 16 and five albums in the top 58. That’s remarkable. In mid January IGMYLM over took Grapevine in sales, and topped the charts at record, world, end cashbox, but could not overcome the amazing radio saturation of Grapevine affecting the Billboard chart. And you can’t blame program directors, grapevine sounded amazing on the radio - especially in the car.

It wasn’t the same for ode to Billie, Joe and Reflections, Billie Joe was a great record, and a very strong record, but reflections just wasn’t strong enough to beat it. It’s quite possible, had it got number one in sales, that it might have pushed it to number one billboard.

Baby Love and come see about me were both in the top 10 at the same time. Both went to number one but I’ve always felt that baby love chart positions. Were compromised by the early release of come to see about me. Maybe even a fifth week at number one. Not long ago I saw an interview where I think it was Lamont Dozier, musing that, same thought.

[TheMotownManiac]

I'm fairly certain Mary [[and probably Cindy) is on "Evening Train." Ever since I was a kid, I heard her in the mix and to this day I still hear her. The Andantes are definitely in the mix, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had Mary and Cindy singing with them. It wouldn't be the first time.

I agree - I’m certain I hear Mary there.

[TheMotownManiac]

There is nothing the Supremes recorded after love child that I would put out as a 45 until Someday. They got by with I’m living in shame because it was released with the group white hot:two platinum singles in the top 10, three albums in the top 15 so naturally, it got a lot of adds instantly. Plus, as sappy and corny as it is, even with the low grade production, it still pushes some of the correct buttons for Pop radio: the lyrics are easy to follow and tell a story, the melody is simple and hummable and easy on the ears, so I can see a certain element, enjoying it enough to keep it from flopping. But without its recent Pedegree, I think you’d be looking at number 27.

I don’t know that I would try to stick with a certain vein, heavy/not heavy….. except that I would like them radio friendly. Which, evidently at Motown at the time, was very difficult to achieve. Look what Berry Gordy had to do to get love child. There is so little effort in the follow up sessions. I think they should’ve brought in outside producers for the last year of their flag ship group and spare them the embarrassment of releasing records that don’t do well and that most people don’t like.

I don’t think evening train would have a chance on the radio. It’s much too hard to follow. It’s one thing to listen to the album while lying on your bed, but hanging out with friends, being at a party or hearing it in the car does not allow the kind of concentration needed to get into the lyric. It would probably get some adds because of the Supremes name, but I’m sure it would die very quickly.

There’s also a lot of talk of does your mama know about me. I think the nucleus is there for a great record that could go all the way, but a completely different production. I don’t like the one they did. they should’ve rested her voice before recording it and I think the track fights her vocal all the way through the song. the production is OK for an album cut, but it needs a much slicker, listenable vision to give this song the worthwhile chance it deserves. I think it has the possibility to be very big and something the group could be proud of. I much prefer Bobby’s version.

I am aware that I lament the lack of material at that company frequently, but since there seems to be no decent new material, it bears, repeating. Right at W. Grand Blvd., there are great songs, or songs that could have a great commercial appeal with better production. Look how Vanilla Fudge successfully reimagined you keep me hanging on. Songs I would suggest:

When I’m gone - great song that I think Brenda would hit big with, I just think it needed a more modern arrangement.

Something about you-everything is in the music and lyrics and the production but the great Levi was straining too hard on this one. Modernize the arrangement and add Ross’ cool, deft touch I think would make it a slam dunk.

danger, heartbreak, dead ahead- I think all the ingredients are there for a huge hit with a more modern arrangement.

honey love: like danger, these lyrics are just perfect for top 40. It’s got that quote a little bit of you – a little bit of me “bitch that works so well on radio. It would need a better arrangement and I know that Diana could nail the vocal.

When you’re young and in love- it’s been done and it’s been done but I still don’t think it’s been done correctly, and I really don’t care for Wanda’s vocal. I see great potential here.

I also think that it might be possible to reimagine into hit status:
Going down for the third time
Shake me wake me

I would love it if the group put out a wonderful, meaningful, socially conscious album that was a huge hit. But I settle for a succession of top 10 records that actually deserve to be there.

[Motown Eddie]

Baby Love and come see about me were both in the top 10 at the same time. Both went to number one but I’ve always felt that baby love chart positions. Were compromised by the early release of come to see about me. Maybe even a fifth week at number one. Not long ago I saw an interview where I think it was Lamont Dozier, musing that, same thought.

Yes, "Baby Love" might have spent another week at Number One but Motown had to rush release "Come See About Me" in order to fight off Nella Dodd's remake of the song. However, The Supremes still had three back to back Number One hits in 1964; setting the group up for Bigger & Better things.

[BayouMotownMan]

It's interesting that the DRATS "Progression" was derailed almost immediately after the name change took effect. Each single and lp did worse than the previous for over a year.

Berry Gordy was surely panicking, as was Ross, when radio programmers had a rather negative outlook on this name change. I can well remember the pre-Love Child records being played with DJs still saying "The Supremes" as the record faded on air. I remember some saying "That's the Supremes and Diana Ross." No one at Motown expected this backlash.

Gordy was always a gambler, and he did it again in the summer of 1968. DRATS were booked on Sullivan for late September so he locked up his best writers [[minus Smokey and Whitfield) into a Detroit hotel with the order not to emerge until they had a hit on Ross. After several mixes, Love Child was born and all parties involved knew it was a hit. DRATS had already recorded the TCB special with the Tempts and Gordy knew both groups had to have big hit records by the December air date to attract viewers. Therefore Motown PR went into overdrive promoting Love Child and Cloud 9. It worked beautifully even though radio programmers also took to Stevie and Marvin's new singles which took a bit out of the sails of Love and Cloud. Nevertheless, Motown went into December 1968 with two major hits on DRATS and the Tempts, a milestone, heavily viewed TV special on both groups, and lps selling like crazy on their duets.

This renewed interest in the new Tempts [[with Dennis Edwards) and DRATS carried over well into 1969 and beyond for the Tempts, but DRATS cooled quickly. The problem here was that no one at Motown could capture the group into a hit sound that HDH did prior. So DRATS flapped around for much of 1969. Gordy was so panicked over getting the group back on top so he could pull Diana out that he yanked Smokey's The Composer as it was heading for a certain Top 20 showing in favor of his own No Matter What Sign You Are, which made a dismal showing. This was one time Gordy gambled and lost. As the summer of 1969 came to a close, his star was cold again. Another duet lp with the Tempts didn't help and the Broadway special was not well received.

As someone said earlier, Johnny Bristol's Someday We'll Be Together was being held back for Diana's solo debut. But nobody at Motown was coming up with anything that had hit potential on Ross going into the fall of 1969 and Gordy was now determined that his unhappy star was to be launched as a soloist at year's end. They were once again booked for Sullivan in late December as the headlining act in a special celebrating Sixties music. Gordy needed a major hit for this to be Diana's swan song. Therefore Someday was moved up to be the final single for DRATS. That gamble also paid off.

For the next three years Diana Ross was hit and miss on the charts as a soloist. After Remember Me she went into the doldrums as she got pregnant and started preparing for LSTB. Her ABC tv special didn't do well. In late 1972 Diana was the coldest she had been since 1963 when the movie was issued. LSTB single handedly revived Diana's career, sunk the Ross-less Supremes who had been more consistent hitmakers than Ross, and launched Diana Ross into the superstardom she continues to enjoy.

[sup_fan]

Maniac - i just went back and looked over the dates. you're right, IGMYLM was released just a week prior to LC peaking on the charts. so you're right they really didn't overlap, other than LC was so incredibly strong it lingered in the upper reaches of the charts.

perhaps IGMYLM and Reflections could have made that last final push to Billboard 1 had there been a timely tv performance. The girls didn't do Reflections on tv until the Hollywood Palace show at the end of Sept and the song peaked at the beginning of Sept.

i know i'm overly focusing on these small details - i just want the girls to have more #1s lol

[marybrewster]

It's interesting that SO MUCH was put into "Love Child"; locking writers in a hotel room until they came up with a hit seems a little drastic and dramatic, ESPECIALLY with what followed. Why wasn't as much thought put into the subsequent singles? So much effort into "Love Child".....to have "Shame", "Sign", and "Composer" to follow? Wasn't Berry once quoted that "Motown only releases #1 records"? He surely couldn't have thought the 1969 singles were hits?

And what exactly changed from the 1968/1969 singles that DRATS were releasing to the 1970/71/72/73 singles that Diana was releasing? The backgrounds were still heavy, giving the "Supremes" feel. She and Berry and Motown relied heavily on the sound that the public had been accustomed to. That's why often "Mountain" is credited to DRATS or the Supremes. Nothing changed. Diana's "solo" career didn't start until well after LSTB.

[blackguy69]

I’ve always said Diana’s first 3 albums could easily been labeled as Supremes albums

It's interesting that SO MUCH was put into "Love Child"; locking writers in a hotel room until they came up with a hit seems a little drastic and dramatic, ESPECIALLY with what followed. Why wasn't as much thought put into the subsequent singles? So much effort into "Love Child".....to have "Shame", "Sign", and "Composer" to follow? Wasn't Berry once quoted that "Motown only releases #1 records"? He surely couldn't have thought the 1969 singles were hits?

And what exactly changed from the 1968/1969 singles that DRATS were releasing to the 1970/71/72/73 singles that Diana was releasing? The backgrounds were still heavy, giving the "Supremes" feel. She and Berry and Motown relied heavily on the sound that the public had been accustomed to. That's why often "Mountain" is credited to DRATS or the Supremes. Nothing changed. Diana's "solo" career didn't start until well after LSTB.

[sup_fan]

It's interesting that SO MUCH was put into "Love Child"; locking writers in a hotel room until they came up with a hit seems a little drastic and dramatic, ESPECIALLY with what followed. Why wasn't as much thought put into the subsequent singles? So much effort into "Love Child".....to have "Shame", "Sign", and "Composer" to follow? Wasn't Berry once quoted that "Motown only releases #1 records"? He surely couldn't have thought the 1969 singles were hits?

And what exactly changed from the 1968/1969 singles that DRATS were releasing to the 1970/71/72/73 singles that Diana was releasing? The backgrounds were still heavy, giving the "Supremes" feel. She and Berry and Motown relied heavily on the sound that the public had been accustomed to. That's why often "Mountain" is credited to DRATS or the Supremes. Nothing changed. Diana's "solo" career didn't start until well after LSTB.

as Bayou pointed out, the panic of early 68 was offset by the huge hits of late 68 [[LC, IGMYLM, the tv special, etc). I would assume they released Shame not to necessarily make a huge hit or statement [[like they did with LC) but to simply cash in on LC. i don't know that they especially cared if it hit #1 so long as it sold well. and given it's chart position of 10, i'd assume it sold sufficiently well enough.

seems like panic set in again in spring 69. at this point, the whole focus would be to announce her departure. but to do that, they needed another mega hit. I can't imagine ANYONE thought Composer would be that. and Berry should have been savvy enough to know that Sign wouldn't be the all-encompassing swan song. i can see him thinking it would be a hit but that THAT big of a hit. unless was truly was dazzled by his own image. if Sign had gone to #9 or 12 or something, i wonder if they would have thought that was big enough of a hit. i would think the demand would be for a #1 and i can't believe anyone was dumb enough to hear Sign as a #1 mega hit. even with all of the hoopla around Aquarius.

diana was doing a ton of recording on her own and so rather than needing to pull another LC and lock people in the hotel, they would have most likely used one of those tracks instead of Someday. maybe the Bones Howe stuff? would Time and Love or Stoney End be something they might have used? Mountain would have certainly been a dynamic send-off but it wasn't recorded until later in the A&S sessions i thought

[Thornton]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears Mary on Evening Train. Sometimes it feels like wishful thinking when I can hear Mary and Cindy's vocals somewhere in the background on songs that feature The Andantes.

[TheMotownManiac]

[Ollie9]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears Mary on Evening Train. Sometimes it feels like wishful thinking when I can hear Mary and Cindy's vocals somewhere in the background on songs that feature The Andantes.

I can hear Mary’s voice in there as well.

[TheMotownManiac]

It's interesting that the DRATS "Progression" was derailed almost immediately after the name change took effect. Each single and lp did worse than the previous for over a year.

Berry Gordy was surely panicking, as was Ross, when radio programmers had a rather negative outlook on this name change. I can well remember the pre-Love Child records being played with DJs still saying "The Supremes" as the record faded on air. I remember some saying "That's the Supremes and Diana Ross." No one at Motown expected this backlash.

Gordy was always a gambler, and he did it again in the summer of 1968. DRATS were booked on Sullivan for late September so he locked up his best writers [[minus Smokey and Whitfield) into a Detroit hotel with the order not to emerge until they had a hit on Ross. After several mixes, Love Child was born and all parties involved knew it was a hit. DRATS had already recorded the TCB special with the Tempts and Gordy knew both groups had to have big hit records by the December air date to attract viewers. Therefore Motown PR went into overdrive promoting Love Child and Cloud 9. It worked beautifully even though radio programmers also took to Stevie and Marvin's new singles which took a bit out of the sails of Love and Cloud. Nevertheless, Motown went into December 1968 with two major hits on DRATS and the Tempts, a milestone, heavily viewed TV special on both groups, and lps selling like crazy on their duets.

This renewed interest in the new Tempts [[with Dennis Edwards) and DRATS carried over well into 1969 and beyond for the Tempts, but DRATS cooled quickly. The problem here was that no one at Motown could capture the group into a hit sound that HDH did prior. So DRATS flapped around for much of 1969. Gordy was so panicked over getting the group back on top so he could pull Diana out that he yanked Smokey's The Composer as it was heading for a certain Top 20 showing in favor of his own No Matter What Sign You Are, which made a dismal showing. This was one time Gordy gambled and lost. As the summer of 1969 came to a close, his star was cold again. Another duet lp with the Tempts didn't help and the Broadway special was not well received.

As someone said earlier, Johnny Bristol's Someday We'll Be Together was being held back for Diana's solo debut. But nobody at Motown was coming up with anything that had hit potential on Ross going into the fall of 1969 and Gordy was now determined that his unhappy star was to be launched as a soloist at year's end. They were once again booked for Sullivan in late December as the headlining act in a special celebrating Sixties music. Gordy needed a major hit for this to be Diana's swan song. Therefore Someday was moved up to be the final single for DRATS. That gamble also paid off.

For the next three years Diana Ross was hit and miss on the charts as a soloist. After Remember Me she went into the doldrums as she got pregnant and started preparing for LSTB. Her ABC tv special didn't do well. In late 1972 Diana was the coldest she had been since 1963 when the movie was issued. LSTB single handedly revived Diana's career, sunk the Ross-less Supremes who had been more consistent hitmakers than Ross, and launched Diana Ross into the superstardom she continues to enjoy.

I have to say, I do not agree with you about the backlash. There probably was some. However, the first single to bear the name change was a radio smash all summer into the fall and went to number two. The tepid follow up also went to the top 10. I don’t see that as signs of a backlash, quite the contrary, as an ordinary record, like in and out of love, making it into the top 10 at all. The first album to bear the name change was the greatest hits which sold like gangbusters, was Motown’s all time biggest selling album until songs in the key of life, knocked Sergeant peppers out of the number one spot and stayed there for over a month. I don’t see backlash there. Now the following two singles did not do well, but they weren’t radio friendly singles. Forever came today was wonderful, but it was too heavy for radio. And some things you never get used to is a mediocre song with undistinguishable lyrics in its hook. I believe that’s why those failed. I believe they failed because they were crappy records Radio wise and not the name change. The reflections album did quite respectably - charting over a half a year, considering the hodgepodge of material and the weak singles. By the end of 1968 Diana Ross and the Supremes had five albums in the top 56. That’s almost 10% of the chart product. That’s an amazing achievement. I’m sure it has been bettered, but I don’t know where and by who. Clearly, the public was not having a problem with the name change to any discernible degree.
Motown didn’t have to do much PR for love child, it bolted out of the gate and zoomed to the top three in nearly record form. When a record is that killer, it needs very little PR. The record stores in St. Louis were going through stacks of them. Deke Richards told me the happiest moments of his career were love child and I want you back. He said they knew the day it was released that love child was going all the way, but it was quite a while before they knew I want you back was going to hit and he was really worried.

I don’t see the summer of 1969 as bleakly as you do. The group was generating its best reviews ever at its debut at the Waldorf, Ditto, their last stand at the Copa. They were still selling out all around the country. They were out of the top 10 for eight months, that’s all. Meanwhile, it was business as usual, and they had a slam dunk number one for ross to debut with and Gordy was signing big contracts right and left for diana’s solo services on stage. I don’t think they were worried much in the summer about the group. Of course he wanted a hit record on the girls badly, but when you are still packing venues with flop records out, you know your act is strong and solid. He had the disintegration of the Temptations, the new Supremes, diana ross, solo, launching the Jackson 5 and Martha Reeves, trying to kill her self to deal with. The man had things to do. They put together a fairly decent TV special in on Broadway, on paper that is. The dismal result play some more George Schlatter‘s fault, and Barry’s bag of tacky taste.
It’s true that ross’ recording career before Lady sings The blues was hit and miss, it was also that way after Lady sings the blues. The movie catapulted her to a level I don’t think anybody ever even really dreamed of. Except maybe her lol. Her special generated rave reviews. And it’s true that her recording career was the coldest in the fall of 1972. You are leaving out the fact that she had not had a release for over a year. Although the ones prior to that were certainly disappointments.

I also disagree with you That lady sings the blues had anything to do whatsoever with the fall of the new Supremes. From the get go, their album sales were rapidly dwindling, they also were becoming hit and miss, and before lady sings the blues came out, they had already been shown the door in Las Vegas with no gigs scheduled anywhere after the end of their initial three-year contract. That had nothing to do with Lady sings the blues. They were hurt by the same the same thing Diana‘s solo career was hurt by: not enough good material at the company, plus, they did lose their star attraction and two years later had yet another personnel change. The public just moved on. Honey cone and 3 degrees featured fresh, happening looks and sounds and made the group still wearing diana ross‘s old dresses seem less exciting.

[floyjoy678]

Yeah I hear Mary and Cindy on certain parts of the song too. Whenever I read it was just the Andantes, I was like "are they sure about that?".

[Thornton]

Yeah I hear Mary and Cindy on certain parts of the song too. Whenever I read it was just the Andantes, I was like "are they sure about that?".

I agree. Unless the person making the claim had access to the session logs, I think a lot of people go off what they do or don't hear. I'm always hearing new things on Motown tracks after decades of listening.

[bradsupremes]

Yeah I hear Mary and Cindy on certain parts of the song too. Whenever I read it was just the Andantes, I was like "are they sure about that?".

Another great example is "The Weight." For a long time I assumed it was just the Andantes, but if you listen closely the ladies are actually doing 5-part harmony. The background vocals were recorded May 2, 1969 and in that same session they did "Stubborn Kind Of Fellow," "I'll Be Doggone," and "Sing A Simple Song." And we know Mary and Cindy are on those songs.

[jobeterob]

I have to say, I do not agree with you about the backlash. There probably was some. However, the first single to bear the name change was a radio smash all summer into the fall and went to number two. The tepid follow up also went to the top 10. I don’t see that as signs of a backlash, quite the contrary, as an ordinary record, like in and out of love, making it into the top 10 at all. The first album to bear the name change was the greatest hits which sold like gangbusters, was Motown’s all time biggest selling album until songs in the key of life, knocked Sergeant peppers out of the number one spot and stayed there for over a month. I don’t see backlash there. Now the following two singles did not do well, but they weren’t radio friendly singles. Forever came today was wonderful, but it was too heavy for radio. And some things you never get used to is a mediocre song with undistinguishable lyrics in its hook. I believe that’s why those failed. I believe they failed because they were crappy records Radio wise and not the name change. The reflections album did quite respectably - charting over a half a year, considering the hodgepodge of material and the weak singles. By the end of 1968 Diana Ross and the Supremes had five albums in the top 56. That’s almost 10% of the chart product. That’s an amazing achievement. I’m sure it has been bettered, but I don’t know where and by who. Clearly, the public was not having a problem with the name change to any discernible degree.
Motown didn’t have to do much PR for love child, it bolted out of the gate and zoomed to the top three in nearly record form. When a record is that killer, it needs very little PR. The record stores in St. Louis were going through stacks of them. Deke Richards told me the happiest moments of his career were love child and I want you back. He said they knew the day it was released that love child was going all the way, but it was quite a while before they knew I want you back was going to hit and he was really worried.

I don’t see the summer of 1969 as bleak as you do. The group was generating its best reviews ever at its debut at the Waldorf, Ditto, their last stand at the Copa. They were still selling out all around the country. They were out of the top 10 for eight months, that’s all. Meanwhile, it was business as usual, and they had a slam dunk number one for ross to debut with and Gordy was signing big contracts right and left for diana’s solo services on stage. I don’t think they were worried much in the summer. Of course he wanted a hit record on the girls badly, but when you are still packing venues with flop records out, you know your act is strong and solid.
It’s true that ross’ recording career before Lady sings The blues was hit and miss, it was also that way after Lady sings the blues. The movie catapulted her to a level I don’t think anybody ever even really dreamed of. Except maybe her lol. Her special generated rave reviews. And it’s true that her recording career was the coldest in the fall of 1972. You are leaving out the fact that she had not had a release for over a year. Although the ones prior to that were certainly disappointments.

I also disagree with you. That lady sings the blues had anything to do whatsoever with the fall of the new Supremes. From the get go, there album sales were rapidly dwindling, they also were becoming hit and miss, and before lady sings the blues came out, they had already been shown the door in Las Vegas with no gigs scheduled anywhere after the end of their initial three-year contract. That had nothing to do with Lady sings the blues whatsoever. They were hurt by the same the same thing Diana‘s solo career was hurt by: not enough good material at the company, plus, they did lose their star attraction and two years later had yet another personnel change. The public just moved on. Honey cone and 3 degrees featured fresh, happening looks and sounds and made the group still wearing diana ross‘s old dresses seem less exciting.

Mary Wilson said none of the post Diana albums sold well and as time went on, the sales slipped further.

I don’t think there was much backlash early on - fans hoped for big hits from both and Diana did deliver Mountain and was the #1 female vocalist of 1971 according to Billboard.

The backlash and animosity developed more seriously around Motown 25 when Diana had become an enormous superstar and it was very clear that Mary Wilson would not get a record contract with a major label nor would she have any hits; and she was pissed and started to publicly say so.

And things went from bad to worse with RTL and the betrayal, jealousy, anger, divadom, and ego became legendary.

I think Janie Bradford spelled it out eloquently in the Women of Motown.

[jobeterob]

Listen from 18 minutes to 19 minutes

https://youtu.be/_Ryr7_G55ck?si=WueqGxr6DTSuBInp

[vgalindo]

It's interesting that the DRATS "Progression" was derailed almost immediately after the name change took effect. Each single and lp did worse than the previous for over a year.

Berry Gordy was surely panicking, as was Ross, when radio programmers had a rather negative outlook on this name change. I can well remember the pre-Love Child records being played with DJs still saying "The Supremes" as the record faded on air. I remember some saying "That's the Supremes and Diana Ross." No one at Motown expected this backlash.

Gordy was always a gambler, and he did it again in the summer of 1968. DRATS were booked on Sullivan for late September so he locked up his best writers [[minus Smokey and Whitfield) into a Detroit hotel with the order not to emerge until they had a hit on Ross. After several mixes, Love Child was born and all parties involved knew it was a hit. DRATS had already recorded the TCB special with the Tempts and Gordy knew both groups had to have big hit records by the December air date to attract viewers. Therefore Motown PR went into overdrive promoting Love Child and Cloud 9. It worked beautifully even though radio programmers also took to Stevie and Marvin's new singles which took a bit out of the sails of Love and Cloud. Nevertheless, Motown went into December 1968 with two major hits on DRATS and the Tempts, a milestone, heavily viewed TV special on both groups, and lps selling like crazy on their duets.

This renewed interest in the new Tempts [[with Dennis Edwards) and DRATS carried over well into 1969 and beyond for the Tempts, but DRATS cooled quickly. The problem here was that no one at Motown could capture the group into a hit sound that HDH did prior. So DRATS flapped around for much of 1969. Gordy was so panicked over getting the group back on top so he could pull Diana out that he yanked Smokey's The Composer as it was heading for a certain Top 20 showing in favor of his own No Matter What Sign You Are, which made a dismal showing. This was one time Gordy gambled and lost. As the summer of 1969 came to a close, his star was cold again. Another duet lp with the Tempts didn't help and the Broadway special was not well received.

As someone said earlier, Johnny Bristol's Someday We'll Be Together was being held back for Diana's solo debut. But nobody at Motown was coming up with anything that had hit potential on Ross going into the fall of 1969 and Gordy was now determined that his unhappy star was to be launched as a soloist at year's end. They were once again booked for Sullivan in late December as the headlining act in a special celebrating Sixties music. Gordy needed a major hit for this to be Diana's swan song. Therefore Someday was moved up to be the final single for DRATS. That gamble also paid off.

For the next three years Diana Ross was hit and miss on the charts as a soloist. After Remember Me she went into the doldrums as she got pregnant and started preparing for LSTB. Her ABC tv special didn't do well. In late 1972 Diana was the coldest she had been since 1963 when the movie was issued. LSTB single handedly revived Diana's career, sunk the Ross-less Supremes who had been more consistent hitmakers than Ross, and launched Diana Ross into the superstardom she continues to enjoy.

I always read that her ABC television special was a Neilsons rating success? This is the first time hearing that it didn’t do good.

[Ollie9]

Mary Wilson said none of the post Diana albums sold well and as time went on, the sales slipped further.

I don’t think there was much backlash early on - fans hoped for big hits from both and Diana did deliver Mountain and was the #1 female vocalist of 1971 according to Billboard.

The backlash and animosity developed more seriously around Motown 25 when Diana had become an enormous superstar and it was very clear that Mary Wilson would not get a record contract with a major label nor would she have any hits; and she was pissed and started to publicly say so.

And things went from bad to worse with RTL and the betrayal, jealousy, anger, divadom, and ego became legendary.

I think Janie Bradford spelled it out eloquently in the Women of Motown.

I agree in that the animosity seemed to get worse after Mary was manhandled on stage and publicly complained about it. Being treated as the hired help during RTL negotiations didn’t really help matters and the rest as they say is history. All rather sad, but both women managed to finally move on in the end being the all important thing.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think that by the time they became DRATS, they had evolved into something other than charting with hit songs-they had started to become an institution. Still, Gordy had the plan to make Ross a solo and the songs were just not hitting the charts like they did when HDH was writing for DMF. When songs just weren't making the top 10 like they had been, Gordy wanted to make sure they had hits so that Diana didn't look like she was deserting a sinking ship and the possible backlash for that.
Some of the songs were too frantic in sound like Somethings and Composer,you could barely catch your breath listening to them and it was just not a natural evolution of their carefully crafted sound. With Love Child and Someday, they were just so much better songs than the other tunes. The group also went back to the sound that was more recognizable when Ross left with Ladder and Stoned Love.
Much like Love Child and Someday, Lady helped Ross get back on track after her glorious Ain't No Mountain she didn't light the charts up until Lady and Touch Me in the Morning. It was clear the Motown Machine was working overtime to continue to elevate Ross while the Supremes became journeywomen singers.
Some of the DRATS tunes remind me of the 72-73 Supremes, I read an article on Facebook where Jean said she started to sing in the mold of the group when she first started but then decided artistically she wanted to express herself during the time of IGIMTM and Bad Weather and we see how that departure from their sound did, much like some DRATS tunes just not becoming big hits.
Like I think, by 1968 they were more becoming a showbiz institution and #1 hits were not as necessary to maintain their stature. Unlike by 1973, where Mary was with 2 new girls with a departure from their sound and without 2 of the originals and the lead singer of many #1 hits, well, that progression didn't work unlike the 1968 grouping.

[sup_fan]

I always read that her ABC television special was a Neilsons rating success? This is the first time hearing that it didn’t do good.

my guess is there are multiple ways to define "good." on one hand it probably had pretty solid Neilsons. and it also had that silent movie segment with Diana doing those characters and this helped lead to her casting in LSTB.

on the flip side, it probably further segmented her away from the youth market. this was basically Vegas done on a tv special. the glitz and excessive glamor, the corny skits, etc. the 60s saw a HUGE explosion of the youth market and how lucrative that was. motown missed out on that in many ways in the later 60s and into the 70s. motown was still focusing on MOR and Queen of the House and wigs and tuxedos and all. the 14 - 29 year old audience wasn't interested in that any more. there were so many new genres of music and artists. motown was no longer as "cool" as it was in the mid 60s. this tv special did nothing to change Diana's image in those regards. therefore you didn't have teens and college kids looking for her Surrender album or the singles. they also ignored EIE

[sup_fan]

Listen from 18 minutes to 19 minutes

https://youtu.be/_Ryr7_G55ck?si=WueqGxr6DTSuBInp

Janie is just great - she didn't try to say "no berry or diana are perfect and made 0 mistakes" but she tried to call out that they worked exceptionally hard, had the talent. tried to take the sensationalism out of this [[and with Geraldo in the 80s that's no small feat! lol)

[marybrewster]

Janie is just great - she didn't try to say "no berry or diana are perfect and made 0 mistakes" but she tried to call out that they worked exceptionally hard, had the talent. tried to take the sensationalism out of this [[and with Geraldo in the 80s that's no small feat! lol)

Interesting to hear Janine say that "Diana has and ego and money"......and "she's always had an ego."

[marybrewster]

According to WIKI, "Diana!" hit #17 of the Top 20 for shows the week it aired, and recieved Emmy nominations for Diana and Bob Mackie.

[sup_fan]

Interesting to hear Janine say that "Diana has and ego and money"......and "she's always had an ego."

and i think teachers, students and others have said she always has had an ego. even when she was poor and in the projects. fame and money didn't make her personality. she was apparently always this contrary persona

[jobeterob]

What I enjoy about Janie is she is straightforward and intelligent and made herself a success.

But what she says is that Diana worked hard and became famous and had money and thus was a target and if you aren’t shown as much love as her, that’s for you to deal with, not her.

All these very famous people become targets - Especially women and maybe especially black women, like Beyoncé and I think they generally adopt the same approach - they never respond to much of it.

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary Wilson said none of the post Diana albums sold well and as time went on, the sales slipped further.

I don’t think there was much backlash early on - fans hoped for big hits from both and Diana did deliver Mountain and was the #1 female vocalist of 1971 according to Billboard.

The backlash and animosity developed more seriously around Motown 25 when Diana had become an enormous superstar and it was very clear that Mary Wilson would not get a record contract with a major label nor would she have any hits; and she was pissed and started to publicly say so.

And things went from bad to worse with RTL and the betrayal, jealousy, anger, divadom, and ego became legendary.

I think Janie Bradford spelled it out eloquently in the Women of Motown.

all but a select few had moved on from mary wilson by 1980. I think very very very few people cared if she got a recording contract or not. That was proven by her Motown album, which garnered very little interest, even though it was high profile in the bars, and in record stores. Sam Goody, had a poster in a couple stores in St. Louis, and in the more gay, friendly, independent stores there was an album cover on the wall that was a little bit bigger than a regular album cover. It had a chance to take off enough to gauge interest in her, and there was very little. Not enough for Motown to want to do a second album, and they needed income. Nobody outside of that little niche cared at all until after her book came out, and she made diana to be a monster, and she the victim of the monster. she did a beautiful job of building her brand, but still not enough to get a deal and I really don’t think anybody was losing sleep over it.

and, although I understand why, she did what she did, diana really miss played her hand during RTL. She should have been forthright with the press from the very beginning stating something to the effect that she had absolutely nothing to do with the deals that Mary and Cindy had with the promoters because she felt it would be cleaner that way. When the 20 million fable reared its ugly head, Diana should’ve just come out and said that’s a lie, it’s absolutely nothing like that, it would be impossible to do if it was like that and show her contract. That would’ve taken the wind out of Mary’s sails, and the public would understand why diana did not want to tour with her after making up such a big load of crap . Instead, diana came out of it looking very badly. but I didn’t see much of a backlash at radio city. She’s recognized as a national treasure, and being treated as such deservedly.

[Ollie9]

all but a select few had moved on from mary wilson by 1980. I think very very very few people cared if she got a recording contract or not. That was proven by her Motown album, which garnered very little interest, even though it was high profile in the bars, and in record stores. Sam Goody, had a poster in a couple stores in St. Louis, and in the more gay, friendly, independent stores there was an album cover on the wall that was a little bit bigger than a regular album cover. It had a chance to take off enough to gauge interest in her, and there was very little. Not enough for Motown to want to do a second album, and they needed income. Nobody outside of that little niche cared at all until after her book came out, and she made diana to be a monster, and she the victim of the monster. she did a beautiful job of building her brand, but still not enough to get a deal and I really don’t think anybody was losing sleep over it.

and, although I understand why, she did what she did, diana really miss played her hand during RTL. She should have been forthright with the press from the very beginning stating something to the effect that she had absolutely nothing to do with the deals that Mary and Cindy had with the promoters because she felt it would be cleaner that way. When the 20 million fable reared its ugly head, Diana should’ve just come out and said that’s a lie, it’s absolutely nothing like that, it would be impossible to do if it was like that and show her contract. That would’ve taken the wind out of Mary’s sails, and the public would understand why diana did not want to tour with her after making up such a big load of crap . Instead, diana came out of it looking very badly. but I didn’t see much of a backlash at radio city. She’s recognized as a national treasure, and being treated as such deservedly.

It makes one weep lol.

[RanRan79]

I'm fairly certain Mary [[and probably Cindy) is on "Evening Train." Ever since I was a kid, I heard her in the mix and to this day I still hear her. The Andantes are definitely in the mix, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had Mary and Cindy singing with them. It wouldn't be the first time.

I think the low voice might be Mary too. I don't think Cindy is the high voice.

[RanRan79]

What I enjoy about Janie is she is straightforward and intelligent and made herself a success.

But what she says is that Diana worked hard and became famous and had money and thus was a target and if you aren’t shown as much love as her, that’s for you to deal with, not her.

All these very famous people become targets - Especially women and maybe especially black women, like Beyoncé and I think they generally adopt the same approach - they never respond to much of it.

Agreed. Successful people are always targets. However, we can't pretend like some of the backlash Diana got from her peers had to do with how she treated them rather than how big she got. I think if the Diana Ross story had ended with those first five number ones and we never heard from her or the Supremes again, some of her peers would have harbored issues regarding their interactions with her. Being successful and driven is not an excuse for having a nasty attitude or disregarding the feelings of others. The generous, giving, loving side of Diana Ross is rarely discussed because it doesn't fit the image of the violative diva the public prefers to think she is. But that nasty side of her wasn't made up in response to her success. I've said before, if Diana didn't always like what some people had to say about her, if she wanted to take issue with it, she should have looked in the mirror.

[sup_fan]

What I enjoy about Janie is she is straightforward and intelligent and made herself a success.

But what she says is that Diana worked hard and became famous and had money and thus was a target and if you aren’t shown as much love as her, that’s for you to deal with, not her.

All these very famous people become targets - Especially women and maybe especially black women, like Beyoncé and I think they generally adopt the same approach - they never respond to much of it.

agreed - that mountain is twice as steep for a black woman. i don't think anyone would say [[diana included) that she wasn't without fault or that other decisions could be made. but i agree and respect her general assertion that she wouldn't change a thing. at the end of the day, she seems satisfied with how things have turned out.

[sup_fan]

all but a select few had moved on from mary wilson by 1980. I think very very very few people cared if she got a recording contract or not. That was proven by her Motown album, which garnered very little interest, even though it was high profile in the bars, and in record stores. Sam Goody, had a poster in a couple stores in St. Louis, and in the more gay, friendly, independent stores there was an album cover on the wall that was a little bit bigger than a regular album cover. It had a chance to take off enough to gauge interest in her, and there was very little. Not enough for Motown to want to do a second album, and they needed income. Nobody outside of that little niche cared at all until after her book came out, and she made diana to be a monster, and she the victim of the monster. she did a beautiful job of building her brand, but still not enough to get a deal and I really don’t think anybody was losing sleep over it.

and, although I understand why, she did what she did, diana really miss played her hand during RTL. She should have been forthright with the press from the very beginning stating something to the effect that she had absolutely nothing to do with the deals that Mary and Cindy had with the promoters because she felt it would be cleaner that way. When the 20 million fable reared its ugly head, Diana should’ve just come out and said that’s a lie, it’s absolutely nothing like that, it would be impossible to do if it was like that and show her contract. That would’ve taken the wind out of Mary’s sails, and the public would understand why diana did not want to tour with her after making up such a big load of crap . Instead, diana came out of it looking very badly. but I didn’t see much of a backlash at radio city. She’s recognized as a national treasure, and being treated as such deservedly.

agree

by 1980, motown was pretty much "oldies." sure there were still some current hit-makers but when you said "motown", people mostly meant the years of 64 - 67. similar to what would become the Big Chill soundtrack. that would also mean that a lot of the 70s music started to slip away from the broader public consciousness. the 70s sups. the four tops and their wonderful Still Water album. Thelma houston, the undisputed truth, etc.

Mary wilson really didn't have a long-term image based solely on her 60s role, much because the group was repositioned as "DIANA ROSS and..." So yeah. by the time a solo album was released, no one cared. and it was a solo album that was frankly ill-conceived. none of the material is of a quality that warranted anything significant and pretty much none of the material was really in her wheelhouse.

i'm assuming that in 1973 when J and L left, mary had to at least give SOME thought to a solo career and possibly not at motown. if another label had expressed serious interest in her as a solo artist, i'd have to think she would have instantly left the label. same in 1977/78. i don't know if no other label was interested or if things couldn't be worked out, but obviously nothing else happened. and then in 1980 after she was released, nothing happened. and then after Dreamgirl was published, nothing happened. there frankly just wasn't a market for a Mary Wilson product, outside of a small and loyal fan base. so a revised product of "mary wilson who was undermined by Diana Ross" was released and that seemed to click to some degree

[sup_fan]

and, although I understand why, she did what she did, diana really miss played her hand during RTL. She should have been forthright with the press from the very beginning stating something to the effect that she had absolutely nothing to do with the deals that Mary and Cindy had with the promoters because she felt it would be cleaner that way. When the 20 million fable reared its ugly head, Diana should’ve just come out and said that’s a lie, it’s absolutely nothing like that, it would be impossible to do if it was like that and show her contract. That would’ve taken the wind out of Mary’s sails, and the public would understand why diana did not want to tour with her after making up such a big load of crap . Instead, diana came out of it looking very badly. but I didn’t see much of a backlash at radio city. She’s recognized as a national treasure, and being treated as such deservedly.

Diana's 20/20 interview after mary's was pretty much a disaster. i do give credit to Diana for at least making an attempt to give a rebuttal to claims. in the past she had really just stuck with the "i won't acknowledge that nonsense" approach and while there's some admiration for taking the high ground, i do think it hurt her. but in Diana's interview with Barbara, she came across as defensive, unprepared and anxious. Mary just came across as wildly bitter in her interview. So in the end, both did serious damage to their own brands and to the legacy/brand of The Supremes

[jobeterob]

Diana's 20/20 interview after mary's was pretty much a disaster. i do give credit to Diana for at least making an attempt to give a rebuttal to claims. in the past she had really just stuck with the "i won't acknowledge that nonsense" approach and while there's some admiration for taking the high ground, i do think it hurt her. but in Diana's interview with Barbara, she came across as defensive, unprepared and anxious. Mary just came across as wildly bitter in her interview. So in the end, both did serious damage to their own brands and to the legacy/brand of The Supremes

I remember articles saying damage had been done to everything Supreme - Bookings and money decreased and Mary had to compete with the FLO’s as well and that caused more friction.

Now that all is said and done Diana is regarded by the public as an icon and a national treasure. I think the public has a high regard for the Supremes and their work but the sound remembered is only Diana with some background singers and it’s somewhat known it wasn’t only Supremes in that background. I am not sure if Cindy has a large legacy but amongst fans she is the “kind” Supreme, the warm Supreme and perhaps one that got the shaft. Mary has a legacy larger than Cindy and it would be as a fighter that was a Supreme and tried to keep the Supremes and their name alive.

[Ollie9]

I remember articles saying damage had been done to everything Supreme - Bookings and money decreased and Mary had to compete with the FLO’s as well and that caused more friction.

Now that all is said and done Diana is regarded by the public as an icon and a national treasure. I think the public has a high regard for the Supremes and their work but the sound remembered is only Diana with some background singers and it’s somewhat known it wasn’t only Supremes in that background. I am not sure if Cindy has a large legacy but amongst fans she is the “kind” Supreme, the warm Supreme and perhaps one that got the shaft. Mary has a legacy larger than Cindy and it would be as a fighter that was a Supreme and tried to keep the Supremes and their name alive.

Even now, i very much doubt the majority of general public are aware that it wasn’t always Supremes featured on background.
Agree that Diana at nearly 80 is held in far higher esteem now than when younger. If she lives till 90 she might almost be considered royal.
Although it didn’t equate to album sales, Mary was much loved by industry folk and fans alike as proved by the massive amount of tributes she received upon her death.

[thommg]

all but a select few had moved on from mary wilson by 1980. I think very very very few people cared if she got a recording contract or not. That was proven by her Motown album, which garnered very little interest, even though it was high profile in the bars, and in record stores. Sam Goody, had a poster in a couple stores in St. Louis, and in the more gay, friendly, independent stores there was an album cover on the wall that was a little bit bigger than a regular album cover.

This may have been true in St. Louis, but in the Washington DC area there were no posters, no displays and Mary's album was not even in the New releases rack. You had to go to The Supremes section [[she did not even have her own at that time in most stores) and see if they had a copy. Red Hot was played in the discos, but it seemed to be filler rather than one of those songs that got everyone moving. Her album did not get any great promotion. I do agree they were not the correct songs for her. They didn't do anything to establish her voice in the listeners ear.

[marybrewster]

I remember articles saying damage had been done to everything Supreme - Bookings and money decreased and Mary had to compete with the FLO’s as well and that caused more friction.

Now that all is said and done Diana is regarded by the public as an icon and a national treasure. I think the public has a high regard for the Supremes and their work but the sound remembered is only Diana with some background singers and it’s somewhat known it wasn’t only Supremes in that background. I am not sure if Cindy has a large legacy but amongst fans she is the “kind” Supreme, the warm Supreme and perhaps one that got the shaft. Mary has a legacy larger than Cindy and it would be as a fighter that was a Supreme and tried to keep the Supremes and their name alive.

Did Mary REALLY have to compete with the FLOs though? Prior to Covid, Mary seemed steadily booked and blessed, where the FLOs, even to this day, seem to only have a handful of bookings each year.

[marybrewster]

agree

by 1980, motown was pretty much "oldies." sure there were still some current hit-makers but when you said "motown", people mostly meant the years of 64 - 67. similar to what would become the Big Chill soundtrack. that would also mean that a lot of the 70s music started to slip away from the broader public consciousness. the 70s sups. the four tops and their wonderful Still Water album. Thelma houston, the undisputed truth, etc.

Mary wilson really didn't have a long-term image based solely on her 60s role, much because the group was repositioned as "DIANA ROSS and..." So yeah. by the time a solo album was released, no one cared. and it was a solo album that was frankly ill-conceived. none of the material is of a quality that warranted anything significant and pretty much none of the material was really in her wheelhouse.

i'm assuming that in 1973 when J and L left, mary had to at least give SOME thought to a solo career and possibly not at motown. if another label had expressed serious interest in her as a solo artist, i'd have to think she would have instantly left the label. same in 1977/78. i don't know if no other label was interested or if things couldn't be worked out, but obviously nothing else happened. and then in 1980 after she was released, nothing happened. and then after Dreamgirl was published, nothing happened. there frankly just wasn't a market for a Mary Wilson product, outside of a small and loyal fan base. so a revised product of "mary wilson who was undermined by Diana Ross" was released and that seemed to click to some degree

I've often wondered why Mary wanted that elusive recording contract. Other than "One Night With You" and "Turn Around", nothing she recorded from 1979 until her death was all that exciting or showcased her true talents. Mary was, more than anything, an entertainer and carved out a pretty decent 40 year "solo" career.

[sup_fan]

This may have been true in St. Louis, but in the Washington DC area there were no posters, no displays and Mary's album was not even in the New releases rack. You had to go to The Supremes section [[she did not even have her own at that time in most stores) and see if they had a copy. Red Hot was played in the discos, but it seemed to be filler rather than one of those songs that got everyone moving. Her album did not get any great promotion. I do agree they were not the correct songs for her. They didn't do anything to establish her voice in the listeners ear.

although in Mary's book she mentions hearing Red Hot in discos all over, there was really no significant club action. at least according to the billboard dance charts. the supremes had negligible promotion from Motown but the dj in the clubs still supported the girls and played their music. they had dance hit after dance hit [[problem is it just didn't really help them jump over to pop chart hit). Given the amount of music the clubs used of the supremes, you'd think there'd be SOME action around Red Hot or other cuts on Mary's album. a dj could have easily teed it up by saying "here's the former supreme Mary wilson!" but they didn't. and IMO it's because the music was less than subpar.