DRATS Progression

[lucky2012]

Lol. These posts about Mary's flair for the dramatic are very entertaining and made me snort my coffee a few times.

[RanRan79]

how many of us have friendships the endure for 30, 40 years? how many of you have extremely close friendships with people from jr high? people come and go from your life. sure it's possible - i have a handful that i'm still quite close with. some where we'd drifted apart over the years and then reconnected. but it's more typical that people grow apart. and this isn't the result of some heinous act one of the people committed. it's just that as you grow up, you go down different paths, your personalities diverge.

we've talked about how different the 3 supremes were from each other, in terms of personality. so even though they had similar careers, it's quite possible that D and M just grew apart. they liked different things, had different points of view, different focuses. that could very well explain why they might have had less in common.

also they were just busy - they were heavily involved in their own careers, marriages, motherhood, their own personal issues. it seems that both remained relatively supportive of the other during their 70s careers. Diana would attend and support the girls, there are stories of mary attending shows too. diana was immediately there at her opening.

Quite a few people I know have had friendships that lasted that long, from that far back. It's not exactly unusual. However, your point is still valid and is connected to mine. I think it's entirely possible that had the Primettes gone the way of hundreds of other local teen groups [[getting together to rehearse, doing talent shows, parties and then ultimately disbanding without any real success) Mary and Diana may have continued to be friends up through the end of high school. I could see them going to college and losing touch. I could also see them staying around the neighborhood and simply growing apart like a lot of friends end up doing.

Mary and Diana never had the "luxury" of growing apart and remaining a memory for the other. The Supremes made them forever linked to the world. They couldn't escape it. Plus, because they did spend so much time together when the Supremes became a phenomenon, Flo, Diana and Mary were far beyond just friends. Even their families were hooked up together. So in real life this was never going to be a normal friends grow apart type of situation. Like I said before, they were like family.

It's like the cousins who grow up together, spending time at Big Mama's, having fun, creating memories, but once they are older, adults, different interests, different locations, different lives, there isn't much togetherness. The bond is the past, not necessarily the present. That's what Diana and Mary had, a bond of the past.

[RanRan79]

I love Mary, and her flair for the dramatic. Check her out singing "Ave Maria" sometime, LOL!

There's a little bit of ridiculousness that some of these stories are still being told 30, 40, 50, and 60 years later. Sometimes you gotta spicen them up a bit to keep them relevant and interesting. But like anyone else, sometimes they change over the years, like "telephone"! Oh well. At least I didn't say Diana pushed Mary into the bushes.

One thing I don't miss about Mary is her Florence impression on "Ave Maria". I can imagine Flo hearing that and going "If this heifer don't stop...I don't sound like that!"

Supposedly there is a leaked early draft of Supreme Faith where Mary writes: "Diana ran out of the auditorium, covered in a huge mink, and as if we were in a Detroit Lions game, shoulder checked me into the evergreens planted outside. As quick as she appeared, she disappeared back into the auditorium. As usual, we never spoke about this. The next time I saw her was during the show when she came over to sing 'Reach Out and Touch'. We stood together, one of my best friends, a sister, I had known since we were kids and sang 'Reach out and touch somebody's hand, make this world a better place if you can.' The crowd went wild. No one was the wiser that an hour before, I was picking twigs out of my wig from where my friend tossed me into the bushes."

The editor cut it for accuracy reasons.

[sup_fan]

Quite a few people I know have had friendships that lasted that long, from that far back. It's not exactly unusual. However, your point is still valid and is connected to mine. I think it's entirely possible that had the Primettes gone the way of hundreds of other local teen groups [[getting together to rehearse, doing talent shows, parties and then ultimately disbanding without any real success) Mary and Diana may have continued to be friends up through the end of high school. I could see them going to college and losing touch. I could also see them staying around the neighborhood and simply growing apart like a lot of friends end up doing.

Mary and Diana never had the "luxury" of growing apart and remaining a memory for the other. The Supremes made them forever linked to the world. They couldn't escape it. Plus, because they did spend so much time together when the Supremes became a phenomenon, Flo, Diana and Mary were far beyond just friends. Even their families were hooked up together. So in real life this was never going to be a normal friends grow apart type of situation. Like I said before, they were like family.

It's like the cousins who grow up together, spending time at Big Mama's, having fun, creating memories, but once they are older, adults, different interests, different locations, different lives, there isn't much togetherness. The bond is the past, not necessarily the present. That's what Diana and Mary had, a bond of the past.

exactly - this isn't to say it's impossible to have decades-long friendships. it's just saying that as time goes on, people evolve change and mature. and those paths of change might mean that people that used to be the best of friends just don't have as much in common or shared any more. it's not that something bad happened, or that they hate each other. just that their paths are divergent.

[sup_fan]

One thing I don't miss about Mary is her Florence impression on "Ave Maria". I can imagine Flo hearing that and going "If this heifer don't stop...I don't sound like that!"

Supposedly there is a leaked early draft of Supreme Faith where Mary writes: "Diana ran out of the auditorium, covered in a huge mink, and as if we were in a Detroit Lions game, shoulder checked me into the evergreens planted outside. As quick as she appeared, she disappeared back into the auditorium. As usual, we never spoke about this. The next time I saw her was during the show when she came over to sing 'Reach Out and Touch'. We stood together, one of my best friends, a sister, I had known since we were kids and sang 'Reach out and touch somebody's hand, make this world a better place if you can.' The crowd went wild. No one was the wiser that an hour before, I was picking twigs out of my wig from where my friend tossed me into the bushes."

The editor cut it for accuracy reasons.

hahaha yes!! that ave maria impression was SOOOOOOOO painful lol.

[RanRan79]

also i'm still laughing to myself over the "twig in the wig" line!! lol

if i remember the story correctly, it wasn't totally that motown was giving them the shaft. it was that they parked in a parking lot and then wanted to go walk the red carpet. in order to do so, they had to walk around the building and apparently traipse through some bushes. when they approached the red carpet, no one really seemed to notice them until one of their escorts hollered out "look! it's two of the supremes!!"

my guess is motown had planned who would be arriving by chauffer-driven car to the red carpet point. usually those are not just open for any random person to drive up to. and my guess is M and C didn't make the cut to be part of that.

the story also made is sound like mary was NOT waiting for cindy lol and cindy had to sort of hurry along to catch up. i can see mary not worrying 1 bit if cindy had made it through the landscape lol. mary was a shark when it came to PR - she could smell a whiff of Entertainment Tonight crew from about 500 miles away, like a shark can smell 1 tiny drop of blood on the other side of the ocean

Whatever the situation, Mary and Cindy should never have been treated as less than the stars that they were. Motown had a bad habit of doing people this way. Interesting that there was probably no one at the show who was there to see Tito Jackson, but I bet there was never a question about him getting the same star treatment as his brothers. [[And I don't say that to shade Tito. He's actually one of my favorite Jacksons.)

Mary never missed an opportunity to get in front of a camera. She was a born ham, which makes her inability to make her career take off beyond what it ultimately was, such a shame. She was born to entertain.

Too bad we didn't get more Mary Youtube videos like the last one she did. I find that when Mary is being interviewed two bad things happen: 1) The interviewer always asks the same five questions as every other interviewer before them, and 2) Mary is all over the place, jumping from one memory to another, talking at rapid speed because she's pressed for time. I'm betting the YT vids might have allowed her to go into stuff she doesn't often get asked about and would have allowed her time to tell it at a normal speed and concentrate on what she's saying, versus constantly thinking "how much time do I have?".

[RanRan79]

hahaha yes!! that ave maria impression was SOOOOOOOO painful lol.

Yes it was!!

Would've been interesting to hear what Flo actually did sound like singing the song.

[Spreadinglove21]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

[marybrewster]

I think it boils down to perception:

Diana Ross saw Mary Wilson as a former coworker that shared a 10 year working relationship. Mary Wilson saw Diana Ross as a sister that shared a bond that lasted a lifetime.

Diana's Supremes career is one small ripple in a giant pond. Mary Wilson was THE Supreme, a giant ripple in a small pond.

[Ollie9]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

Don’t hear anyone snorting coffee about that one.

[marybrewster]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

People remember what they want to remember. Are we to believe that Diana and Flo were throwing punches backstage? With Dick Clark hanging around? Let's be honest, Flo looked like she had a good right hook and it would take about two hits; one hitting Diana, and one Diana hitting the floor.

[jobeterob]

also i'm still laughing to myself over the "twig in the wig" line!! lol

if i remember the story correctly, it wasn't totally that motown was giving them the shaft. it was that they parked in a parking lot and then wanted to go walk the red carpet. in order to do so, they had to walk around the building and apparently traipse through some bushes. when they approached the red carpet, no one really seemed to notice them until one of their escorts hollered out "look! it's two of the supremes!!"

my guess is motown had planned who would be arriving by chauffer-driven car to the red carpet point. usually those are not just open for any random person to drive up to. and my guess is M and C didn't make the cut to be part of that.

the story also made is sound like mary was NOT waiting for cindy lol and cindy had to sort of hurry along to catch up. i can see mary not worrying 1 bit if cindy had made it through the landscape lol. mary was a shark when it came to PR - she could smell a whiff of Entertainment Tonight crew from about 500 miles away, like a shark can smell 1 tiny drop of blood on the other side of the ocean

Mary was at the game a long time and she must have known she’d have to make her own opportunities at a certain stage - so she went for ambassadorships, political work, author, inspirational lectures, dress exhibits. At some stage, just like Diana knows now, Mary knew there would be no big hits.

[sup_fan]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

look - i'm assuming every single one of these is probably correct. 19 year old girls are hideous creatures lol sure there are some girls that are just sugar and sweet. I'd imagine actually that Cindy would be one of these. but i don't think Jean or mary or diana or lynda or flo or susaye would be in the sugar category. perhaps Scherrie.

and the same goes for every girl group on those tours. i'm sure Barbara Harris of the toys once said something catty about another girl. and you know Patricia from the Crystals could be a real pain in the ass. and mary even mentions how lots of people didn't like Lala.

the point is, every one of these stories are just sorority house hijinks. nothing shocking, nothing unusual and nothing out of the ordinary. and for each of these stories, there's a story of the girls doubling over in laughter at something, having fun, relaxing and just chilling out together.

[lucky2012]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

The Girl Group era is one of my favorites. I will want to read this book, despite the memory limitations of the "oral histories".

Originally Posted by marybrewsterI love Mary, and her flair for the dramatic...There's a little bit of ridiculousness that some of these stories are still being told 30, 40, 50, and 60 years later. Sometimes you gotta spicen them up a bit to keep them relevant and interesting. But like anyone else, sometimes they change over the years, like "telephone"! Oh well. At least I didn't say Diana pushed Mary into the bushes. People remember what they want to remember. Are we to believe that Diana and Flo were throwing punches backstage? With Dick Clark hanging around? Let's be honest, Flo looked like she had a good right hook and it would take about two hits; one hitting Diana, and one Diana hitting the floor.

[floyjoy678]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

I do remember reading that Diana would get mouthy often with other girls on these tours because she knew Flo would come to her defense if it escalated.

[RanRan79]

I believe Mary's version of events involving the conflict between Diana and Lala, and Mary didn't paint the picture of a Diana who was afraid of Lala. Flo getting involved probably had more to do with being sick of Lala than feeling the need to protect Diana from her. Of course that's just my opinion about something I didn't witness. I still believe Mary's story vs Lala's.

I don't believe for one moment that Diana and Flo scrapped on that tour and it took all this time for us to hear about it. The lady could be mixing up girl group singers.

I agree with Sup. A lot of this stuff was just young kid crap. These same kinds of arguments and fights were happening at school and in the neighborhood and at parties because kids will be kids, even young adults. What I find interesting is that my gut tells me the interviewer asked specific questions about Diana Ross. Whether or not all he/she received in return were horror stories about the woman, I guess we'll never know. But as has been pointed out before, when you're on top, people will look for opportunities to bring you down a peg or two.

I'm reminded of a difference in memory between two girl group members. I believe it was the Chiffons. One Chiffon remembered Diana being a loner and distancing herself from all the other girls as if she was better than they were. The other Chiffon basically said the lady was lying, Diana wasn't like that at all. It never happened. Now, I could have all the details of this story completely screwed up [[waiting for Reese to enter the chat...), but the point is clear: one Chiffon had this negative memory of Diana as it related to the others, while the other Chiffon basically called the memory bunk.

[BayouMotownMan]

I think it boils down to perception:

Diana Ross saw Mary Wilson as a former coworker that shared a 10 year working relationship. Mary Wilson saw Diana Ross as a sister that shared a bond that lasted a lifetime.

Diana's Supremes career is one small ripple in a giant pond. Mary Wilson was THE Supreme, a giant ripple in a small pond.

Very good observation. Mary put more into the relationship than Diana did. It's like in high school, having a best buddy. After graduation you eventually take different roads.

I think Diana Ross is a lonely person. You'd always see Mary out on the town with different celeb friends, but you rarely see Diana Ross doing this. She had no real friends in show business. For a while she and Cher were pals, but Gene Simmons put an end to that but double dating them. Cher did make the observation that Diana's best friends were her kids. That is quite accurate.

Diana is only comfortable around her kids and extended family where she can be "mom" or "Diane." I think the dissolution and death of Arne Naess put her into a depression of sorts where she has a protective wall around her and only those people are allowed in.

[khansperac]

“Show business” friends lol. I’d rather be alone.

[RanRan79]

There's something to be said about having a small circle. I don't know that Diana is lonely simply because we don't see her out and about with the girls, but I do think it's quite possible she is much more comfortable these days being "Diane" rather than "Diana", unless she is onstage. I can imagine too that all those years she spent traveling the world, performing for millions, focusing on her career, she missed out on some of the precious stuff. At this point that's probably her focus. She's done the "out on the town", lady of the world stuff. Now "Mom", "Grandma", "Auntie" is where it's at for her.

[reese]

I'm reminded of a difference in memory between two girl group members. I believe it was the Chiffons. One Chiffon remembered Diana being a loner and distancing herself from all the other girls as if she was better than they were. The other Chiffon basically said the lady was lying, Diana wasn't like that at all. It never happened. Now, I could have all the details of this story completely screwed up [[waiting for Reese to enter the chat...), but the point is clear: one Chiffon had this negative memory of Diana as it related to the others, while the other Chiffon basically called the memory bunk.

I do remember a difference in memory like this, although for some reason, I'm thinking it might have been the Crystals but I don't know for sure.

Plus some memories tend to fade or get exaggerated over time. I remember one girl group member talking about being with them on [I believe] the Dick Clark tour and Flo confiding in her that Berry was already making moves to take Diana out of the group and swearing her to secrecy. It seems kind of early for that but I can't say it wasn't true.

[midnightman]

The new girl group oral history book But Will You Love Me Tomorrow has a couple of stories that are new [[to me at least) of Ross behaving badly back in the day.

One of the Dixie Cups recalls on the Dick Clark tour in 1964 that backstage one night shortly before the Supremes were to go on stage, Diana said something "nasty" to Flo and next thing they were having a fist fight with Mary begging them to stop as they were about to go on stage.

Also on Dick Clark tour, there were a few occasions when they had an afternoon off and could go shopping in the town they were in. Diana would split off from the other girls and shop alone. Later the girls would back at hotel share what they bought. Diana rarely joined those sessions but when she did, if she found out one of the other girls had bought something similar to what she bought Diana would throw a tantrum and throw away or destroy the item she bought that the same girl had also bought.

LaLa Brooks talked about clashing with Diana on that tour as well. Apparently the last straw was when Diana made fun of the condition of the Crystals' shoes they wore when they performed and LaLa decided to fight her. Diana sent Flo and her mother to where they were supposed to fight. LaLa noted that Diana's mother looked ashamed and embarrassed by the way her daughter behaved on the tour, and also decided she wasn't going to fight Flo as Flo was bigger than her and unlike Diana Flo was genuinely "Detroit-Detroit tough".

Jesus Christ. I wonder what went on in Diana's childhood to make her act the way she does cause holy crap... I do remember she recounted an earlier childhood memory of hearing her mother crying one night while a man, presumably Diana's dad Fred, screaming at her but apparently none of the Ross kids ever ask Ernestine what was happening. The demons Diana carried festered as she began her musical career obviously and just manifested. We know Diana had an intense rivalry with her sister Barbara "Bobbie" Ross so that may have been the catalyst to this. I also read [[I forget which book, maybe Dreamgirl or Ronnie Spector's book that Nay Rob recapped) that Diana and Ronnie Spector butted heads too.

[midnightman]

I believe Mary's version of events involving the conflict between Diana and Lala, and Mary didn't paint the picture of a Diana who was afraid of Lala. Flo getting involved probably had more to do with being sick of Lala than feeling the need to protect Diana from her. Of course that's just my opinion about something I didn't witness. I still believe Mary's story vs Lala's.

I don't believe for one moment that Diana and Flo scrapped on that tour and it took all this time for us to hear about it. The lady could be mixing up girl group singers.

I agree with Sup. A lot of this stuff was just young kid crap. These same kinds of arguments and fights were happening at school and in the neighborhood and at parties because kids will be kids, even young adults. What I find interesting is that my gut tells me the interviewer asked specific questions about Diana Ross. Whether or not all he/she received in return were horror stories about the woman, I guess we'll never know. But as has been pointed out before, when you're on top, people will look for opportunities to bring you down a peg or two.

I'm reminded of a difference in memory between two girl group members. I believe it was the Chiffons. One Chiffon remembered Diana being a loner and distancing herself from all the other girls as if she was better than they were. The other Chiffon basically said the lady was lying, Diana wasn't like that at all. It never happened. Now, I could have all the details of this story completely screwed up [[waiting for Reese to enter the chat...), but the point is clear: one Chiffon had this negative memory of Diana as it related to the others, while the other Chiffon basically called the memory bunk.

Hmm interesting.

[midnightman]

Dreamgirl was 1986
Call Her Miss Ross was 1989
Berry, Motown, and Me was 1990
All That Glittered was 1990
Deliver Us From Temptation was 1992
Confessions of a Motown Diva was 1994
To Be Loved was 1994
TEMPTATIONS was 1998

I think it's safe to say Mary kicked open the door for MANY of the Motown books that came after her.

I give that crown to the late Marvin Gaye:
Divided Soul [[1985)

[midnightman]

I think Mary was really the first person to go on record about the fact that Diana could be difficult to deal with. The rumors were already out there. The perception of her as a "bitch" was already a thing. Mary basically just confirmed it, and the confirmation had weight because she was one of the Supremes.

The whole thing was messed up because of their psyches. Mary grew up being someone who buried her feelings in order to keep things from getting out of control. This is something seen quite commonly in the mental health field. So many people suppressing their emotions in order to placate other people. When it came to Diana and even Florence, and probably especially Berry, Mary would choose to swallow her anger and hurt because of where she saw herself on the Supremes totem pole. She only really risked the wrath of Florence when Mary realized that Flo was on her way out anyway. So Mary basically stored up a ton of animosity about things said and done as it related to Diana and it all came tumbling out in a book. I think both she and Diana would have been better served if Mary had gotten in Diana's face and let her know in no uncertain terms that she didn't like it when Diana said...or she didn't like it when Diana did... Perhaps Diana might- might- have thought twice about anything she might do or say that rubbed her friend the wrong way.

On the flip, Diana had no problem letting her feelings out. What she did have a problem with was not acknowledging how her actions or words may have made other people feel. All these years and Diana has never seemed to publicly acknowledge her role in why some people who know her have had issues with her, be it the past or present. I don't believe anyone should spend their lives ruminating over someone else's inability to get over the past, but it does say something about character when you accept accountability. Diana got angry at Mary for Dreamgirl and other stuff, but never once accepted that some of this was her very own fault. Mary is often accused of having a victim mentality. I'd wager Diana also has had one where this issue is concerned. It's always "Everybody's being mean to me and saying bad things about me" rather than acknowledging what might have led up to those things being said or the treatment she's getting.

That's always been my issue with Diana too. Like I have never seen her open up and admit she may have went too far in her youth. Apparently those questions are forbidden to ask.

[midnightman]

Isn't that life, though? Of course money doesn't make people happy, even though we often think it does. Look at Diana. All those stories about her nastiness toward other people, even though she was seemingly sitting on top of the world. And who can forget her drowning her sorrows in alcohol and then getting behind the wheel, putting not only her life but the lives of others in mortal danger.

These people are human and subject to human emotions and flaws and all of that. They all have issues. I don't believe for one moment that Aretha spent every day upset and angry. I still don't believe Gladys is this unhappy person you seem to think she is. Mary was pissed at times, and in many ways rightfully so, but she sure did seem to swing on out of here, on top of the world, hitless but very much loved.

They live life. None of them are perfect. They all have good and bad days. And I'd venture that more often than not, these folks are giving less attention to the negativity we the public seem to think they sit in hour after hour, day after day.

Yeah that was a weird comment. There were times Aretha was a blast to be around and she often DID apologize if she felt she went over the line [[that's exactly what she did with Whitney after their 1988 session for the Through the Storm album). Gladys being unhappy is a new one because Gladys never came off as a bitter person even with the way she felt unwanted at Motown despite her and the Pips' success there. Like you said, Aretha, Gladys and Diana are just human and we shouldn't bolster just their negative traits and let that overshadow what they brought to the music industry and to their fans.

[SatansBlues]

I say we don't know what we don't know. And by this I mean that none of us are privy to the inner workings of Diana's life. For example we have never really heard anything about her relationships with her two sisters or her other family members like nieces and nephews. Nor have we heard any real stories about her current relationships with her former Motown artists like Stevie or Smokey or Martha or even Berry. Heck we don't know what the woman had for dinner tonight or who she had it with. We don't know, what we don't know.

[sup_fan]

Jesus Christ. I wonder what went on in Diana's childhood to make her act the way she does cause holy crap... I do remember she recounted an earlier childhood memory of hearing her mother crying one night while a man, presumably Diana's dad Fred, screaming at her but apparently none of the Ross kids ever ask Ernestine what was happening. The demons Diana carried festered as she began her musical career obviously and just manifested. We know Diana had an intense rivalry with her sister Barbara "Bobbie" Ross so that may have been the catalyst to this. I also read [[I forget which book, maybe Dreamgirl or Ronnie Spector's book that Nay Rob recapped) that Diana and Ronnie Spector butted heads too.

i don't think someone's personality is totally based on nurture. it's also heavily influenced by nature. that's why you often have 2 siblings from the same household with very different personalities and personas.

i think you're making too much of the "demons" of diana ross. and it's quite possible some of the "demons" of Flo were just her personality too. I've know a zillion people that have huge mood swings too and were never sexually assaulted. maybe the attack simply increased what was already there.

you could make the argument that diana carried a considerable amount of insecurities with her, probably through much of her life. according to the books out there, diana's father definitely loved her and i've not read anything where he was violent like Joe Jackson. but he was known to be emotionally withdrawn. he held things in. combine that with a personality like Diana's that is craving applause and approval and you could see why there where disconnects.

[sup_fan]

randy's last book does a wonderful job of examining the possible influences of Diana's parents. of course he's not a trained psychologist but i think it's quite justified.

Diana's mother was apparently very warm and openly loving. she was hugely supportive of all her children and their interests. and of diana, she was her biggest cheerleader. she had a very nurturing and mothering persona

Diana's father was very practical, very rational. he knew the world of struggle as a black man in the 1930 - 50s. to him, education was THE gateway to a life of success. it would be the 1 ticket to having financial independence and to achieve the american dream. so studying, math, science, etc would have been areas he felt were most important. music and arts and etc would have been probably superfluous to his and his vision of how to succeed. he sacrificed by working multiple jobs in order to provide.

Diana is really a perfect merging of these. to both her children and her audience, she's an outstanding mother - caring and wanting what's best for them. off stage and in the business world, she's the definition of practical and rational, with little need for emotion or feelings. you work as hard as you can and do the very best you can, and you will most likely succeed.

[RanRan79]

That's always been my issue with Diana too. Like I have never seen her open up and admit she may have went too far in her youth. Apparently those questions are forbidden to ask.

I think this might be why we really don't get Diana interviews these days. I think a lot more interviewers are willing to push the envelope to get a story and Diana is not going to put herself in a position to address anything about Flo or Mary, in particular. And look, my position isn't that we the public are owed anything from Diana, as if she has to answer to us for anything she said or did 50 years ago. I'm just saying that as an admirer of the lady, I would appreciate her addressing her own actions, rather than addressing the actions of others. And it would be good to add further insight into who she was then, and who she is now.

[RanRan79]

Jesus Christ. I wonder what went on in Diana's childhood to make her act the way she does cause holy crap... I do remember she recounted an earlier childhood memory of hearing her mother crying one night while a man, presumably Diana's dad Fred, screaming at her but apparently none of the Ross kids ever ask Ernestine what was happening. The demons Diana carried festered as she began her musical career obviously and just manifested. We know Diana had an intense rivalry with her sister Barbara "Bobbie" Ross so that may have been the catalyst to this. I also read [[I forget which book, maybe Dreamgirl or Ronnie Spector's book that Nay Rob recapped) that Diana and Ronnie Spector butted heads too.

I've never heard of Diana and Ronnie having any issues. That's a new one for me.

That passage in Diana's book about her mother hiding in the closet and telling Diana to go away so Ernestine isn't found is probably the most revealing thing about any negative part of Diana's childhood. She wrote it as if she wasn't sure if it was a dream or a memory, but I don't buy that. If she thought it was a dream, she wouldn't have bothered to include it. I'm sure she's had worst dreams than her mother hiding in the closet from her father. So there was definitely something going on in the Ross household that apparently doesn't get talked about publicly [[which I'm okay with, that's Ross family business, not mine).

We are all shaped by our childhoods. That's why children should be protected at all costs, nurtured, loved, because childhood ends up being the foundation the adulthood is planted on. Diana's childhood daddy issues led her to being Berry Gordy's muse, all the while taking Gordy's abuse so that she could revel in his approval. Crazy, but one must ponder would Diana have ever shot for the moon if her father had been more supportive of her initially. I think she used her father's attitude toward her dreams as fuel for her success.

[Ollie9]

you work as hard as you can and do the very best you can, and you will most likely succeed.

Luck and timing play a huge part as well. Not everyone has a BG in their corner, no matter how hard working.

[sup_fan]

Luck and timing play a huge part as well. Not everyone has a BG in their corner, no matter how hard working.

yeah but "success" doesn't have to be defined as world conquest. and my comment would apply to any scenario. had Diana followed Daddy's request she would have worked hard at Cass on her studies, gotten better grades. then probably go to Wayne State which was affordable and accessible there in Detroit. she could continued to study fashion, millenary, design, sewing and construction. since she was pretty naturally talented in this area and lord knows she was competitive lol she'd probably have pushed herself for straight As or dean's list. upon graduating and getting a job somewhere in this field, she would have been a passionate worker. in early, staying late, pushing herself. and she would have eventually had some promotions and earned more money. gotten married, had kids, etc.

that could certainly have been a success had she not made it in music and entertainment. note that she isn't whisked away to Rome in my story, a la Mahogany.

not trying to say luck and timing are never a component. you're absolutely right that she lucked out that there was a Berry Gordy there in Detroit. maybe she could have lucked out in fashion and found an employer that wasn't tied to antiquated racial discrimination or ideas and she might have risen higher than someone a decade or two prior.

[Ollie9]

yeah but "success" doesn't have to be defined as world conquest. and my comment would apply to any scenario. had Diana followed Daddy's request she would have worked hard at Cass on her studies, gotten better grades. then probably go to Wayne State which was affordable and accessible there in Detroit. she could continued to study fashion, millenary, design, sewing and construction. since she was pretty naturally talented in this area and lord knows she was competitive lol she'd probably have pushed herself for straight As or dean's list. upon graduating and getting a job somewhere in this field, she would have been a passionate worker. in early, staying late, pushing herself. and she would have eventually had some promotions and earned more money. gotten married, had kids, etc.

that could certainly have been a success had she not made it in music and entertainment. note that she isn't whisked away to Rome in my story, a la Mahogany.

not trying to say luck and timing are never a component. you're absolutely right that she lucked out that there was a Berry Gordy there in Detroit. maybe she could have lucked out in fashion and found an employer that wasn't tied to antiquated racial discrimination or ideas and she might have risen higher than someone a decade or two prior.

What might have been. I do agree that Diana would most likely have found success no matter what profession she decided on.
We know she always had a huge interest in fashion, so I wonder if that interest ever extended to modelling. The camera certainly loves her, but she’s probably to short to have been catwalk model as in Mahogany.

[sup_fan]

What might have been. I do agree that Diana would most likely have found success no matter what profession she decided on.
We know she always had a huge interest in fashion, so I wonder if that interest ever extended to modelling. The camera certainly loves her, but she’s probably to short to have been catwalk model as in Mahogany.

well and there were NO black models to speak of during the 60s. i couldn't imagine any of the major fashion houses in europe using a black model then either, so it's not just the US that would have been racist on this issue. she MIGHT have had luck with the emergence of Ebony and Jet magazines. it's possible she could have done some print modeling work with something they would advertise, like wigs or hair products. however Diana definitely did not have a figure that would have probably been desired by advertisers in the black magazines. her being too skinny and lacking curves.

i remember learning a little about how advertisers and marketers were slowly dabbling in the black market more in the 60s. a few token designers and models did make some inroads and maybe she could have too. more of this occurred in the 70s and 80s and 90s and she would have been too old by then

[midnightman]

I think this might be why we really don't get Diana interviews these days. I think a lot more interviewers are willing to push the envelope to get a story and Diana is not going to put herself in a position to address anything about Flo or Mary, in particular. And look, my position isn't that we the public are owed anything from Diana, as if she has to answer to us for anything she said or did 50 years ago. I'm just saying that as an admirer of the lady, I would appreciate her addressing her own actions, rather than addressing the actions of others. And it would be good to add further insight into who she was then, and who she is now.

True but sadly we'll never get it.

[midnightman]

well and there were NO black models to speak of during the 60s. i couldn't imagine any of the major fashion houses in europe using a black model then either, so it's not just the US that would have been racist on this issue. she MIGHT have had luck with the emergence of Ebony and Jet magazines. it's possible she could have done some print modeling work with something they would advertise, like wigs or hair products. however Diana definitely did not have a figure that would have probably been desired by advertisers in the black magazines. her being too skinny and lacking curves.

i remember learning a little about how advertisers and marketers were slowly dabbling in the black market more in the 60s. a few token designers and models did make some inroads and maybe she could have too. more of this occurred in the 70s and 80s and 90s and she would have been too old by then

Diana as a model wouldn't have worked. She definitely had to be a showgirl or singer to get attention if she was gonna go anywhere.

[Ollie9]

well and there were NO black models to speak of during the 60s. i couldn't imagine any of the major fashion houses in europe using a black model then either, so it's not just the US that would have been racist on this issue. she MIGHT have had luck with the emergence of Ebony and Jet magazines. it's possible she could have done some print modeling work with something they would advertise, like wigs or hair products. however Diana definitely did not have a figure that would have probably been desired by advertisers in the black magazines. her being too skinny and lacking curves.

i remember learning a little about how advertisers and marketers were slowly dabbling in the black market more in the 60s. a few token designers and models did make some inroads and maybe she could have too. more of this occurred in the 70s and 80s and 90s and she would have been too old by then

From what i have seen there were a handful of successful black models during the 60’s, but it was made a lot more difficult for them. Diana looked great on those Ebony covers or indeed any magazine she was featured in.
It’s notable that none of the reviews of Mahogany mention the fact that Diana was a little too old to be playing a model that takes the world by storm. Perhaps being a kind of fantasy it didn’t matter.

[marybrewster]

Jesus Christ. I wonder what went on in Diana's childhood to make her act the way she does cause holy crap... I do remember she recounted an earlier childhood memory of hearing her mother crying one night while a man, presumably Diana's dad Fred, screaming at her but apparently none of the Ross kids ever ask Ernestine what was happening. The demons Diana carried festered as she began her musical career obviously and just manifested. We know Diana had an intense rivalry with her sister Barbara "Bobbie" Ross so that may have been the catalyst to this. I also read [[I forget which book, maybe Dreamgirl or Ronnie Spector's book that Nay Rob recapped) that Diana and Ronnie Spector butted heads too.

Wow, did Diana get along with anyone?

[midnightman]

Wow, did Diana get along with anyone?

Not that I can recall.

[Ollie9]

Not that I can recall.

Now now. As long as no fool made eye contact all was usually well.

[midnightman]

Now now. As long as no fool made eye contact all was usually well.

Lol I don't know whether to laugh or cry whenever I read that part about her firing folks for simply looking at her for a second.

[Ollie9]

Lol I don't know whether to laugh or cry whenever I read that part about her firing folks for simply looking at her for a second.

Perhaps she was inspired by the legend of Medusa.