Marvelettes vs Supremes

[BobbyC]

This is a page from the Marvelette's biography called The Original Marvelettes. I don't know much about the Marvelettes, but I found their take on the Supremes' singing ability very interesting

[sup_fan]

yeah it's an interesting book. from a literary perspective, perhaps not the most well written. but it's great to have a more complete history of the Marvelettes and how it all fits into the overall history

while the M's vocals certainly improved over time, they were never the strongest singers at motown. the group's harmonies on the first few lps are endearing but rough. the As were being added to some of their material by 64 - for instance i'm positive the A's are doing the more intricate harmonies on Too Many Fish. yes the M's are on that record and it's great how each girl is spotlighted on the chorus. but i believe the M's end up singing more or less in unison throughout the song and the A's do the chords. and of course over time the As pretty much took over all of the backing vocals on the M's material

Glady's comments are also quite revealing. that the group saw themselves really as part of the black theater circuit. of course they did lots of state fairs too, college dates. but they didn't really have the idea of going into more of the high-end supper club. and frankly that aligned pretty well with what motown thought of them too.

although i have to say i simply love Glady's voice. she too clearly had to have just instinctive talent when it came to phrasing and all. i'm not as much of a fan of Wanda. i do like the smoky, sultry voice but i'm not a fan of her head voice/falsetto

[reese]

I think Gladys was being realistic. Its almost like the Marvelettes just fell into a career. They were formed in the spring of 1961 to compete in a talent contest, by summer they had a recording out, and by the end of the year, they had Motown's first #1 pop hit. I'm sure they did a lot of learning on the job. I would love to hear what they sounded like in concert during the Wanda era.

[BobbyC]

Reese that is exactly what happened, according to this book. There was no plan for the Marvelettes, which is kinda shocking considering how Berry Gordy basically controlled and directed every single thing the Supremes did. Since I knew almost nothing about the Marvelettes before reading this, I was surprised to learn that the girls had an extremely physical stage show, closer to the Temptations' moves and choreography than, say, the Supremes. Motown made them tone it down at some point, to be more like the Supremes, you know, "less masculine.". Another thing that was fascinating, was how Motown was completely unprepared for getting a #1 Pop hit when they released Mr Postman! Really shows you how far Motown improved in just a couple of years of hits. Gladys also says Postman was Motown's first gold single, not the Miracles' Shop Around.

[sup_fan]

given their massive eventual success and all, it's hard to remember that motown was really breaking new ground. they didn't have any other label to really look to, no guidance. just play it by ear. black music was really relegated to the sidelines for the most part and black artists were nearly always marginalized and overlooked.

in their early years, motown was much more typical r&b. a gritty sound, less polished records. but all along, Berry was keeping his eyes and ears open to find a female singer/female group to break into the big time. it's been stated that he was also going to focus on a female and not a male singer or group because the general white population viewed a black woman as less threatening. So while Berry was hunting, they were putting out whatever they could that might be a hit and keep the machine rolling. the early miracles, mabel john, barrett strong, mary wells, contours, and others were all about just getting whatever they could. it wasn't necessarily about cultivating a roster of artists or developing these early ones into that super star.

Mabel apparently pulled herself out as she was more blues and R&B and she realized berry wanted to go pop

barrett, jackie wilson, contours and the others were just random tunes they tried to make hits with.

the miracles were the first "big" group

the marvelettes were an accident. apparently berry was [[probably wisely) wary of female groups because girls can get pregnant and then the group is screwed [[literally lol). but the girl group phenomenon hit right at this time and the M's tapped right into it. but the motown machine wasn't ready to nurture a group to hit the Copa and the M's frankly didn't have the right skill set

mary wells was the first real attempt. he'd tried Freda Payne but her mama said "nope - not signing your contract." mary got the hits and they showed on the MOR material that she might have been able to do pretty well. I think Mary might have done ok on the club network. she was not a Diana Ross with that captivating stage persona and the versatility. i think she would have been successful for a while but she wouldn't have become MARY WELLS like how Diane Ross became MISS DIANA ROSS

[reese]

Gladys also says Postman was Motown's first gold single, not the Miracles' Shop Around.

I've read in at least one book that even though it was claimed as the first, SHOP AROUND wasn't the company's first million seller. How anyone besides accounting would know is anyone's guess. All that is known for sure is that Motown did give the Miracles a gold disc for the record.

By comparison, Motown never gave the Marvelettes a gold record during their heyday, for POSTMAN or for any other potential million seller. In 1985, Katherine Anderson Schaffner said that the only gold record she had was for co-writing Gladys Knight and the Pips' I DON'T WANT TO DO WRONG.

The Marvelettes finally received officially certified RIAA gold records for POSTMAN and DON'T MESS WITH BILL in 2004.

[BobbyC]

Reese--I'm so glad they finally got recognized as selling some gold records! Better late than never, as they say. But honestly, after reading this book, I think it was more like confusion and chaos at the time Postman came out that disallowed them from being noted as having a million seller. Motown, prior to that, had mostly just mid level R&B hits, but when Postman hit #1 Pop, nobody was prepared to handle a Pop hit that big! So I think Berry was absolutely focused on getting another huge Pop hit, rather than giving credit to the wet-behind-the-ears Marvelettes

[BobbyC]

Another interesting thing from this book, was that the ladies from the Marvelettes never talked any other artist down. They had glowing memories of the Supremes, Diana Ross, Martha, pretty much everybody--and the compliments didn't seem phony at all. It was more like they were just a super young group of giggly girls who just stumbled upon a huge hit record, and they never saw themselves as a group on a par with the Vandellas or the Supremes. It was kind of endearing. And refreshing.

[RanRan79]

although i have to say i simply love Glady's voice. she too clearly had to have just instinctive talent when it came to phrasing and all. i'm not as much of a fan of Wanda. i do like the smoky, sultry voice but i'm not a fan of her head voice/falsetto

I actually love Gladys voice too. I think it's a pity that her leads on singles stop after "Too Many Fish". The label was moving into more mature directions, and I think Gladys' voice fit right in. Her vocals on "Message To Michael" and especially "This Night Was Made For Love" are gorgeous.

That being said, the switch to Wanda, and Wanda's switch from that annoying, high pitched, almost tone deaf voice she often used to the sexy, toned down one Smokey was able to work magic with, is hard to argue against. What he was able to do for Wanda, and thus setting a template for other producers to follow with her, was genius, and dare I say a work of miracle.

I'm not the biggest Marvelettes fan. Being a fan of harmony and having the opinion that the Marvelettes were not very good at it, doesn't really endear them to me as a group. Early on in my Motown fandom, I got the Deliver the Singles set, and really enjoyed it. Even then though, I noticed that when it came to what I most dug about the Marvelettes, it was a lot of the stuff cut when Wanda pretty much became the lead singer. As of now, I think my Marvelettes collection is Deliver the Singles and all the albums from 1967 thru 1970, and maybe one or two from the early period, and I'm good with that.

[RanRan79]

I think Gladys was being realistic. Its almost like the Marvelettes just fell into a career. They were formed in the spring of 1961 to compete in a talent contest, by summer they had a recording out, and by the end of the year, they had Motown's first #1 pop hit. I'm sure they did a lot of learning on the job. I would love to hear what they sounded like in concert during the Wanda era.

I never thought about that, but I think you're right. Most of the other groups at Motown got together because they were serious about the craft and making a living at it. One has to wonder what might have become of the group if Motown hadn't made them an offer. Would they have continued the act or be a one and done like many other talent show participants?

[RanRan79]

I've read in at least one book that even though it was claimed as the first, SHOP AROUND wasn't the company's first million seller. How anyone besides accounting would know is anyone's guess. All that is known for sure is that Motown did give the Miracles a gold disc for the record.

By comparison, Motown never gave the Marvelettes a gold record during their heyday, for POSTMAN or for any other potential million seller. In 1985, Katherine Anderson Schaffner said that the only gold record she had was for co-writing Gladys Knight and the Pips' I DON'T WANT TO DO WRONG.

The Marvelettes finally received officially certified RIAA gold records for POSTMAN and DON'T MESS WITH BILL in 2004.

Forgetting for the moment that Motown has a ridiculous accounting situation for that time period, while it wouldn't shock me that "Postman" sold a gob more copies than "Shop" did, "Shop Around" went all the way to #2 on the pop chart. My guess is that it probably went gold before "Postman" did.

[RanRan79]

Another interesting thing from this book, was that the ladies from the Marvelettes never talked any other artist down. They had glowing memories of the Supremes, Diana Ross, Martha, pretty much everybody--and the compliments didn't seem phony at all. It was more like they were just a super young group of giggly girls who just stumbled upon a huge hit record, and they never saw themselves as a group on a par with the Vandellas or the Supremes. It was kind of endearing. And refreshing.

Individually, they are sourced as information for some of the drama stories surrounding the Supremes, especially Diana Ross, in Call Her Miss Ross. So they weren't above the gossip either. However, I don't think I've read any of them taking digs at the label's competition, unless you count Gladys' "nightgown" comment that made Diana "attempt" to run her down with a car. Lol

Florence said the Marvelettes couldn't sing. Annette of the Vandellas said the Vandellas were better than the Supremes at what they did, whatever that meant. Digs were not uncommon among the Motown family, apparently.

[RanRan79]

Flo has always been given credit for giving Gladys some tips on "Postman" during the recording. It's interesting to hear Gladys' delivery and those ad libs and then listen to some of Flo's leads during that time and how she ad libbed and hear the influence. I always wished the Supremes had covered the song with Florence.

[lucky2012]

Flo has always been given credit for giving Gladys some tips on "Postman" during the recording. It's interesting to hear Gladys' delivery and those ad libs and then listen to some of Flo's leads during that time and how she ad libbed and hear the influence. I always wished the Supremes had covered the song with Florence.

Buttered Popcorn & Postman were both released in August 1961! I can hear some influence.

I love Gladys Horton's voice. It took me a little time to love Wanda's voice [except that I loved Don't Mess With Bill right away].

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Another interesting thing from this book, was that the ladies from the Marvelettes never talked any other artist down. They had glowing memories of the Supremes, Diana Ross, Martha, pretty much everybody--and the compliments didn't seem phony at all. It was more like they were just a super young group of giggly girls who just stumbled upon a huge hit record, and they never saw themselves as a group on a par with the Vandellas or the Supremes. It was kind of endearing. And refreshing.

Really well said. I think we fans may be more bothered at the perceived lack of attention paid to the group that the ladies themselves. When Gladys appeared on that popular Geraldo "Women of Motown" episode, I noticed Gladys had nothing but high praise for the Supremes and Diana Ross in particular; and like you said, it came across as genuinely sincere. I've always loved the Marvs because they came across as down to earth and not hung up on company politics.

[reese]

Forgetting for the moment that Motown has a ridiculous accounting situation for that time period, while it wouldn't shock me that "Postman" sold a gob more copies than "Shop" did, "Shop Around" went all the way to #2 on the pop chart. My guess is that it probably went gold before "Postman" did.

I can't argue with this.

I think one theory was that Motown thought that Smokey and the Miracles should have the first gold record because they had been around longer and no "country girls" from Inkster was going to get one before them, and that's why they received their award. Katherine basically says this in Marc Taylor's book on them.

[reese]

Really well said. I think we fans may be more bothered at the perceived lack of attention paid to the group that the ladies themselves. When Gladys appeared on that popular Geraldo "Women of Motown" episode, I noticed Gladys had nothing but high praise for the Supremes and Diana Ross in particular; and like you said, it came across as genuinely sincere. I've always loved the Marvs because they came across as down to earth and not hung up on company politics.

Funny I've watched that episode many times and I don't recall anyone saying anything favorable about Diana aside from Janie Bradford and Syreeta.

Gladys did make a point of saying that she knew there was a lot of talk about what Berry achieved but behind every good man there is a lady. When Geraldo asked was she speaking of Raynoma, she said indeed she was, and then went on to say how she had been inspired by some of her fellow guests.

[BobbyC]

Thanks, Watch. What I failed to write earlier, was that none of the other Motown artists quoted in this book had anything but praise for the Marvelettes! They were seen as funny, sweet girls who, in their prime, never got swelled heads. They admitted they weren't the best singers, but it just seems their exuberance made everybody like them.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Individually, they are sourced as information for some of the drama stories surrounding the Supremes, especially Diana Ross, in Call Her Miss Ross. So they weren't above the gossip either. However, I don't think I've read any of them taking digs at the label's competition, unless you count Gladys' "nightgown" comment that made Diana "attempt" to run her down with a car. Lol

Florence said the Marvelettes couldn't sing. Annette of the Vandellas said the Vandellas were better than the Supremes at what they did, whatever that meant. Digs were not uncommon among the Motown family, apparently.

I've read some of those quotes and to put it into context, some of those digs were said as recollections of things said when they were all young kids. The whole Gladys running Diana down with a car was recalled by Gladys with something of a chuckle, the way some of us, with the passing of time, recall some of our own silly arguments and grudge matches of our youth. I don't think Gladys was holding onto any of that mess as a middle-aged woman. We fans though sometimes like to laser-focus on that stuff and believe it all still carries currency in the present. The artists themselves have probably forgotten most of that mess.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Thanks, Watch. What I failed to write earlier, was that none of the other Motown artists quoted in this book had anything but praise for the Marvelettes! They were seen as funny, sweet girls who, in their prime, never got swelled heads. They admitted they weren't the best sings, but it just seems their exuberance made everybody like them.

Definitely. This is the impression I've gotten over the years as well. Just a nice group of girls who were having fun with this "unexpected" career.

[RanRan79]

I've read some of those quotes and to put it into context, some of those digs were said as recollections of things said when they were all young kids. The whole Gladys running Diana down with a car was recalled by Gladys with something of a chuckle, the way some of us, with the passing of time, recall some of our own silly arguments and grudge matches of our youth. I don't think Gladys was holding onto any of that mess as a middle-aged woman. We fans though sometimes like to laser-focus on that stuff and believe it all still carries currency in the present. The artists themselves have probably forgotten most of that mess.

Oh of course it was recollections. I didn't think any of them really held grudges for decades about a lot of that kid stuff.

[BobbyC]

I just want to be clear here--I am just referring to what the various ladies of the Marvelettes said in this book that I'm reading. I am not talking about spats that were noted in other books. The only artist in this tome who came off badly was Wanda of the Marvelettes themselves, due to her getting strung out on drugs. Katherine talked about it but wasn't nasty or even judgemental about Wanda's drug abuse. She really took the high road in discussing these issues.

[captainjames]

I actually don't remember Gladys talking about Diana dress looking like a nightgown in the Marvelettes book. I kind of remember Tony Turner saying something about this in his book but I really don't believe much of what he wrote about Mary, Florence or Diana.

The Marvelettes had a lot of things going on within the group at the time that the company was just not prepared to handle.

[TheMotownManiac]

This is a page from the Marvelette's biography called The Original Marvelettes. I don't know much about the Marvelettes, but I found their take on the Supremes' singing ability very interesting

i’ve never understood how some people think that anyone could have had the success of the Supremes and or diana ross if they had had the same attention. Taking talent aside, there are so many other variables that one cannot expect to find in every other girl singer at Motown. I doubt very much that anyone has ever had more ambition than diana ross. And I don’t mean to be sliding anyone, but nary a Marvelette nor a Vandella can compare with the marvelous attributes of Mary Wilson, and Florence Ballard.
they were a magical trio. I saw The Marvelettes a few times, and I saw Martha and the Vandellas a few times, and I enjoyed them, but I never in 1 million years I thought that they had any kind of dream doing with the Supremes did. They were good, and what they all did.

[reese]

I actually don't remember Gladys talking about Diana dress looking like a nightgown in the Marvelettes book. I kind of remember Tony Turner saying something about this in his book but I really don't believe much of what he wrote about Mary, Florence or Diana.

The Marvelettes had a lot of things going on within the group at the time that the company was just not prepared to handle.

Mary wrote about the nightgown comment in DREAMGIRL and later, Tony included it in ALL THAT GLITTERED.

[sup_fan]

i’ve never understood how some people think that anyone could have had the success of the Supremes and or diana ross if they had had the same attention. Taking talent aside, there are so many other variables that one cannot expect to find in every other girl singer at Motown. I doubt very much that anyone has ever had more ambition than diana ross. And I don’t mean to be sliding anyone, but nary a Marvelette nor a Vandella can compare with the marvelous attributes of Mary Wilson, and Florence Ballard.
they were a magical trio. I saw The Marvelettes a few times, and I saw Martha and the Vandellas a few times, and I enjoyed them, but I never in 1 million years I thought that they had any kind of dream doing with the Supremes did. They were good, and what they all did.

i tend to agree with your comment. sure all of the artists at motown were talented. but DMF were just special. they were 20 and 21 years old but just had an innate talent and presence. they were born entertainers which is different that being a young adult with a good voice.

and that's a huge part of why the Supremes became THE SUPREMES. sure they had Diana Ross which gave them a truly unique sound and edge. but M and F were extremely important to the act. America fell in love with 3 girls and that's what provided the platform for Diana to grow, develop and blossom. all 3 had engaging personalities, very strong stage presence plus talent galore.