MSS vs Three Degrees Live

[Spreadinglove21]

I decided to take a look at a Three Degrees [[Sheila, Valerie, Fayette) live show performance from mid 70s and compare to MSS Live at Montreux. Both doing the Vegas/cabaret thing, but MSS performing with greater fierceness, but Three Degrees certainly have a sheen to their show at this time.

Three Degrees:



MSS:

[sup_fan]

it might be a simply thing but i think the supremes should have used mic stands more. sure, there are times to take the hand mics and all, it breaks things up and adds variety. but there was too much movement all around. it would sometimes make things too scattered on the stage and when they really got dancing, there would be times where they were literally out of breath.

in the segment of Susaye doing He Aint Heavy, M and Scherrie keep stationary at their mics with just simple choreography, they avoid too much ad libbing and allows susaye to shine.

I do appreciate susaye's abilities and some ad libs, i think it ads to the act but a little goes a long way

[Roberta75]

it might be a simply thing but i think the supremes should have used mic stands more. sure, there are times to take the hand mics and all, it breaks things up and adds variety. but there was too much movement all around. it would sometimes make things too scattered on the stage and when they really got dancing, there would be times where they were literally out of breath.

in the segment of Susaye doing He Aint Heavy, M and Scherrie keep stationary at their mics with just simple choreography, they avoid too much ad libbing and allows susaye to shine.

I do appreciate susaye's abilities and some ad libs, i think it ads to the act but a little goes a long way

That entire show apart from the fabulous Im Gone Let My Heart Do The Walking was a hot mess. Too rushed and made me real jumpy. I did enjoy the Three Degrees and thought there show was real calls and polished.

[gman]

I'll hand it to the Three Degree's...the live show has much more balance, better harmony and conveys a real group effort.

The Supremes last unit was a mess live...any unit, from '65 on suffered from speed and brass issues live...Flo and Lynda were at times both loud / sharp...Susaye's vocal acrobatics were distracting...with this last unit, its like "OK, I'm over here doing this, you are over there doing that"... there was entirely too much going on at once sometimes, both visually and vocally. [[The Mary Scherrie Cindy unit consistently had the best live harmony)....I noticed during High Energy's intro when they are swooping along, at one point Scherrie is standing on Mary's scarf...that must have been a lot of mic wire to keep untangled at times...

[Circa 1824]

I could only stomach the first five minutes of The Supremes manic behavior. Mary was soooo over-the-top it was exhausting to watch. Did she have no advisors. Was she on drugs? Horrible….

[blackguy69]

I’m not surprised you would make a dig at Mary. But if you must know, she was breastfeeding during this period, so I doubt she was on anything. Also if I’m correct, this was the show Pedro blackened her eye before they went onstage, hence the heavy eye makeup to cover it up.

I could only stomach the first five minutes of The Supremes manic behavior. Mary was soooo over-the-top it was exhausting to watch. Did she have no advisors. Was she on drugs? Horrible….

[lakeside]

I love the Supremes, but the Three Degrees blew the Supremes out of the water with this show. I even saw this Supreme's show in Ft. Lauderdale right before they went to Montreux. I had no idea that Fayette was given that many leads. The lady could sing! RIP Fayette.

[sup_fan]

there are great moments in the Sup show but yes, overall it's marred by the manic pace and choreography.

Maybe This Time is a strong moment. Scherrie of course is just a dynamo and the group isn't so helter skelter. so you get some gorgeous harmonies and singing

as i mentioned above, He Ain't Heavy is pretty good. not my fav song for Susaye to solo on but the presentation was pretty good. Susaye is front and center and her vocal acrobatics are appropriate here as it's her spotlight.

i don't mind High Energy and kinda enjoy the scarves lol. i know a lot hate them. but i think its sort of fun. also it keeps 2 of the 3 singers more or less stationary and so while they're still do a lot of movement with the scarves behind susaye, it's not as bad as some other numbers

the hits medley, Walking, opening numbers are too frantic.

[Spreadinglove21]

One advantage, oddly enough, for the 3 Degrees is because they didn't have as many hits as The Supremes, they could do their hits in full and not in medley format. Perhaps by the mid 70s the Supremes should have just ditched the 60s hits medley and just do a couple of the 60s hits in full, as they did with the re-arranged My World Is Empty Without You?

[thanxal]

I’m not surprised you would make a dig at Mary.

Gets tiring, don't it?

[Ollie9]

I think the Supremes would have sounded great singing the Three Degrees hits. Songs such as “Dirty Ole Man”, “Year Of Decision” and “When Will I See You Again” would have been a perfect fit for their voices. After the Floy Joy album, it might have been wise had they continued the trend towards more soulful pop.

[Spreadinglove21]

I’m not surprised you would make a dig at Mary. But if you must know, she was breastfeeding during this period, so I doubt she was on anything. Also if I’m correct, this was the show Pedro blackened her eye before they went onstage, hence the heavy eye makeup to cover it up.

Agreed, but I also think Mary had a tendency to overdo it when TV cameras were around, or she was pitching her performance to the live in person audience and forgot that a camera close up can make her facial reactions come across as over the top, or worse, desparate to please and entertain. Even in 2019 she suffered from this problem when she was on Dancing with the Stars and it may have been a factor in her early ouster as she didn't have much a fan base to fall back on, and viewers new to her were put off by her over the top reactions when camera closed in on her so chose not to vote for her.

[sup_fan]

Agreed, but I also think Mary had a tendency to overdo it when TV cameras were around, or she was pitching her performance to the live in person audience and forgot that a camera close up can make her facial reactions come across as over the top, or worse, desparate to please and entertain. Even in 2019 she suffered from this problem when she was on Dancing with the Stars and it may have been a factor in her early ouster as she didn't have much a fan base to fall back on, and viewers new to her were put off by her over the top reactions when camera closed in on her so chose not to vote for her.

that's an interesting POV. in many of the tv clips, she does come across overly animated. like in the Irving Berlin segment on Sullivan, Love The One You're With where she's just doing the choreography so much faster and bolder than J or C. these Scherrie era clips too.

perhaps it is because the distance between audience and stage in a theater is so different that a tv camera.

seems like this came about more with the DRATS era than the DMF one. she always had a sparkling bubby persona on the tv shows. lots of times she did the choreography better than F or C. like on YCHL she really did a sexy wiggle with F on their choreography. and on Tennesse Ernie and Reflections, she just looked sexy as hell and super cool in how she executed the routine. her coy glances down and how she's wiggle a bit as she and C did the shakes and leg routine during the Reflections chorus.

but then it seems like maybe she was trying to compete with the attention diana was getting by moving faster, more facial gestures, etc. there are times when it just doesn't come across natural

[RanRan79]

The Three Degrees were fantastic. It's a pity they didn't take off the way they should have in the US.

[marybrewster]

The thing with the 3D vs Supremes [[MSS) is that 3D very much presents themselves as a group. The choreography is tight and the costuming is on point. The song selection, while varied, still focuses on the strengths of the group and seems "current".

MSS is a mEss with three lead singers trying to one up each other; every woman for themselves. I'm sure that's not the case, but a lead and two "backups" worked so well for DMF, DMC, JMC. The stage show is frantic; who do you keep your eyes on? There's 1000 feet of mic cord, the "hits" sound NOTHING like the original recordings, Mary looks sweaty, and the frenzied movements in evening gowns is all too much. And lets's not talk about the dance of the red hanky, lol.

[marybrewster]

that's an interesting POV. in many of the tv clips, she does come across overly animated. like in the Irving Berlin segment on Sullivan, Love The One You're With where she's just doing the choreography so much faster and bolder than J or C. these Scherrie era clips too.

perhaps it is because the distance between audience and stage in a theater is so different that a tv camera.

seems like this came about more with the DRATS era than the DMF one. she always had a sparkling bubby persona on the tv shows. lots of times she did the choreography better than F or C. like on YCHL she really did a sexy wiggle with F on their choreography. and on Tennesse Ernie and Reflections, she just looked sexy as hell and super cool in how she executed the routine. her coy glances down and how she's wiggle a bit as she and C did the shakes and leg routine during the Reflections chorus.

but then it seems like maybe she was trying to compete with the attention diana was getting by moving faster, more facial gestures, etc. there are times when it just doesn't come across natural

For once I agree with you, lol!

Mary, especially in the 70's and into the 80s, is JUST TOO MUCH. Look at the Smokey Robinson Special or any of the Flip Wilson skits. Her laughter is over the top; extra animated. In many of the MSC and MSS clips/concerts, it's like she's taking over the personas of Florence AND Diana; trying to be three women at once. And there's a performance on a morning show in the early 80's where Mary comes across as ditzy; running out of breath, talking foolishly during the interview, acting like a novice, not a SUPREME.

[RanRan79]

The thing with the 3D vs Supremes [[MSS) is that 3D very much presents themselves as a group. The choreography is tight and the costuming is on point. The song selection, while varied, still focuses on the strengths of the group and seems "current".

MSS is a mEss with three lead singers trying to one up each other; every woman for themselves. I'm sure that's not the case, but a lead and two "backups" worked so well for DMF, DMC, JMC. The stage show is frantic; who do you keep your eyes on? There's 1000 feet of mic cord, the "hits" sound NOTHING like the original recordings, Mary looks sweaty, and the frenzied movements in evening gowns is all too much. And lets's not talk about the dance of the red hanky, lol.

Definitely agree here!

[gman]

I would love to see a full Jean Mary Cindy concert...the earlier, the better...as far as program choices and pace of arrangements, the FLOS [[Jean Scherrie and Lynda) concert at the Dominion runs circles around anything live I've ever seen under the group name.

IMHO...the only song that benefitted from a speedier live tempo was In and Out of Love...Diana Ross turned that one into both a great "eye and ear" live performance.

[Spreadinglove21]

The thing with the 3D vs Supremes [[MSS) is that 3D very much presents themselves as a group. The choreography is tight and the costuming is on point. The song selection, while varied, still focuses on the strengths of the group and seems "current".

MSS is a mEss with three lead singers trying to one up each other; every woman for themselves. I'm sure that's not the case, but a lead and two "backups" worked so well for DMF, DMC, JMC. The stage show is frantic; who do you keep your eyes on? There's 1000 feet of mic cord, the "hits" sound NOTHING like the original recordings, Mary looks sweaty, and the frenzied movements in evening gowns is all too much. And lets's not talk about the dance of the red hanky, lol.

However The 3 degrees performance posted isn't a lead with two back ups, but they managed to come off as a cohesive group in this performance, with each member getting a chance to stand out without it becoming a competitive free for all.

As for the High Energy scarf dance routine, what gets me is the panting to suggest they are in heat, lol!

[marybrewster]

However The 3 degrees performance posted isn't a lead with two back ups, but they managed to come off as a cohesive group in this performance, with each member getting a chance to stand out without it becoming a competitive free for all.

As for the High Energy scarf dance routine, what gets me is the panting to suggest they are in heat, lol!

Very true, and you nailed it. Cohesive!

[RanRan79]

I would love to see a full Jean Mary Cindy concert...

Until you mentioned it, I don't think I had thought about the fact that I've never seen that lineup- or the Lynda lineup- in concert footage. I have to believe that a live video exists for at least the very early part of Jean's tenure, as Motown still held the group as a priority.

[sup_fan]

there is a snippet of JMC live wearing the white pantsuits from Andy Williams and Soul Train. now it's not them singing - the audio is missing and so the post just uses All I Want from the JW lp. they're performing in the round and it's a fascinating clip. hard to tell exactly what they're singing but the second half is clearly them doing Ladder in the hits medley.

Jean looks sensational. she's wearing that longer, fuller wig like when on Flip Wilson doing Love The One You're With. and she couldn't look more excited or thrilled to be there

Mary is radiant of course. and man, she is putting energy into her dancing lol. as we've discussed, sometimes mary was over animated and she's approaching that here. but still she looks great. as she swings and dances, you can see the poncho top just flowing and moving. clearly Mary understood how to utilize the gowns and costumes for maximum effect

cindy also looks great but given the stage in the round, she's not on camera as much

again, it's a brief clip but the MJC lineup really could rock

[Spreadinglove21]

And for direct competition between the two groups, they both did Everybody Gets to go to the Moon in their show.

Supremes: [[medley with Corner of the Sky):



Three Degrees:

[gman]

the 3 Degree's did TO THE MOON in a scene from the French Connection...

there is also a 3 Degrees LP with a cover pretty much exactly like Mary Scherrie and Susaye...I think its called New Directions....

[marybrewster]

The Three Degrees have a new member!

Out is Tabita King; in is Jessie Wagner. Val and Freddie remain.

[BobbyC]

Guys--we are here to discuss these things. It is okay to say Mary was manic in this clip. I agree with that assessment. It's a matter of opinion.

[sup_fan]

Guys--we are here to discuss these things. It is okay to say Mary was manic in this clip. I agree with that assessment. It's a matter of opinion.

agree - my POV is if it's something about their professional lives, it's completely open for discussion. personal issues are less so, outside of the ones that were specifically and clearly impacting aspects of the group. such as flo's drinking.

i'm totally guessing here but my opinion is back in the 60s, Berry coached and directed Diana on how to refine her stage presence. there have been stories that she was encouraged to watch and learn from the greats like Sammy Davis Jr. How they led their shows, maneuvered around the stage, interacted with the conductor and guests and audience, etc. Diana was also strongly coach in elocution and diction.

there are times a performer tries one thing or another and maybe it's just not as successful as hoped. Diana's hiccup vocal in TCB was probably an attempt to create a vocal affectation that makes her stand out - it did but for the wrong reason. Susaye had marvelous singing ability and skills and this could be wonderfully utilized for ad libs, descants and other aspects of their show - but a little goes a long way and she needed to be reigned in for their live shows. mary had a warm and friendly personality in the group, she was known as a sweetiepie - but over the top isn't a good look, so pull it back and be more "cool."

[Ollie9]

The difference being the Supremes look desperate to please. I love MS&S in the studio, but live Susaye can start to become annoying.
If only they could have calmed things down. It reminds me of a Bette Davis story where Director Willie Wyler had her walk into a room ten times until she did it normally.

[sup_fan]

The difference being the Supremes look desperate to please. I love MS&S in the studio, but live Susaye can start to become annoying.
If only they could have calmed things down. It reminds me of a Bette Davis story where Director Willie Wyler had her walk into a room ten times until she did it normally.

with both Lynda and Susaye [[and frankly even Scherrie) there wasn't a very strong effort to help redefine the group with the onset of a new singer and personality. They did eventually do some with Susaye and her unique vocals. but rather than take the time to regroup and say "ok we now have XYZ talent and so let's adjust the group accordingly"

with the MSS stage act, desperate is a good word to describe it. it's like someone thought "let's dance as fast as we can, sing as loud as we can and then people will like us!"

[RanRan79]

Cool.

Perfect word to describe Mary. Going back to the 60s, Mary always had this air of "cool" about her. I think someone in the forum once mentioned that Mary seemed to be the hip dresser of the group, where Diana was sometimes over the top and Flo was sometimes a bit too earthy in dress. I agree with that. Even the way she moved was cool. Her speech was cool, except when she was a bit on the goofy side. Even the way she walked onto the stage at Motown 25...good grief, she oozed cool. Lol

I think both Scherrie and Susaye had a fire about themselves that made them feed off of each other. Scherrie was contained when Cindy was in the group because Cindy was so laidback. Scherrie reigned in her energy to match that of Mary and Cindy. With Susaye, Scherrie went all in. As a consequence, Mary had to abandon her coolness to match the energy of Scherrie and Susaye. The problem was that Mary was much better at being "cool" than she was at being over the top.

Good management could have prevented all of this. No disrespect to either Susaye or Scherrie, both of whom I respect the utmost as Supremes, but looking back neither of them were probably the best fit for Mary and the direction the Supremes should have been going in.

[RanRan79]

with the MSS stage act, desperate is a good word to describe it. it's like someone thought "let's dance as fast as we can, sing as loud as we can and then people will like us!"

I think pushing them into the disco arena was a big part of this. If the group had settled back into sophisticated soul, some of this mess could have been eliminated.

[marybrewster]

agree - my POV is if it's something about their professional lives, it's completely open for discussion. personal issues are less so, outside of the ones that were specifically and clearly impacting aspects of the group. such as flo's drinking.

i'm totally guessing here but my opinion is back in the 60s, Berry coached and directed Diana on how to refine her stage presence. there have been stories that she was encouraged to watch and learn from the greats like Sammy Davis Jr. How they led their shows, maneuvered around the stage, interacted with the conductor and guests and audience, etc. Diana was also strongly coach in elocution and diction.

there are times a performer tries one thing or another and maybe it's just not as successful as hoped. Diana's hiccup vocal in TCB was probably an attempt to create a vocal affectation that makes her stand out - it did but for the wrong reason. Susaye had marvelous singing ability and skills and this could be wonderfully utilized for ad libs, descants and other aspects of their show - but a little goes a long way and she needed to be reigned in for their live shows. mary had a warm and friendly personality in the group, she was known as a sweetiepie - but over the top isn't a good look, so pull it back and be more "cool."

What about the infamous scarf dance, lol.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I absolutely loved High Energy and Mary, Scherrie & Susaye. I think they created an amazing sound in the studio recordings. Live, they just did the exact opposite and did not mesh. I know Mary wrote that Susaye and Scherrie were headstrong and determined to carve solo careers from the Supremes. They also were both unhappy with Pedro's management. It seemed that from the Jean Mary Lynda days that Mary seemed to be adding too much extra energy. I don't know if she was frustrated with the lack of hits that she was trying to add extra enthusiasm for the group. Mary and Scherrie started to split leads and I think Mary was pushing a bit to be known and recognized during the MSC era. Once it was MSS, I believe Susaye stated she was told she was going to be a lead singer. I think when that didn't happen she was going to showcase her talents, Scherrie started to do more leads and was out front and I think Mary started to push herself out front and had too much energy so it did look like all 3 were vying for attention. But they still released some Supremely amazing vinyl.

[sup_fan]

I think pushing them into the disco arena was a big part of this. If the group had settled back into sophisticated soul, some of this mess could have been eliminated.

i don't blame disco - look at how perfectly Diana incorporated The Boss into her act or look at her 1980 HBO concert in Vegas promoting the whole The Boss album. the audience is absolutely alive during her version of the title track and hell - she's even going Xanadu with the roller skaters on the stage. is it all very 1979 - of course! but it's still well done

There were a few big issues with the Sups live presentation:

1. the crazy, breakneck tempos
2. out of control 3-part harmonies - again, they're trying to Wow everyone and 3 part is lovely. but you don't need it in every second of every song. it gets overwhelming and when combined with the crazy tempos and dancing, the girls were out of breath and pitch suffered
3. excessive choreography - when the girls were lip syncing or actually doing the HE videos, sure! have a complex routine. but for the stage act, this should have been greatly simplified
4. too much ad libs - on the recording of LYG, there's an echo effect on the chorus. for the live shows the girls are all shouting out "go, go, GO!!!!" and it's too much. plus all of the various ad libs. sure LYG ends up in a free for all, with the choruses repeated and all. that could have made a fun segment of the show where each woman gets a spotlight to "do her own thing" but you still have to limit stuff.