Mary Wilson

[tamlaboy]

Hi Folks,

Mary`s dead 2 and a half years already...hard to believe... I admire her perfection and her ability and power to keep the Supremes alive in the 70s for so long. But i have also one negative comment about her: every now and then she never gets tired of mentioning that she was the Supreme doing the "la-la-las" or "uh-uh-uhs". I think she never gets over the point that Diana was "The Boss" without any doubt. Now my question" Did anyone of the 3 Tops besides Levi mentioned anything like that? I cant believe that neither Duke, Lawrence or Obie would have said "I`m one of the Tops who does only the lalalas" :-)

btw: Sorry for my not so good English; I`m from Germany but I do my very best :-)

[sup_fan]

Hi Folks,

Mary`s dead 2 and a half years already...hard to believe... I admire her perfection and her ability and power to keep the Supremes alive in the 70s for so long. But i have also one negative comment about her: every now and then she never gets tired of mentioning that she was the Supreme doing the "la-la-las" or "uh-uh-uhs". I think she never gets over the point that Diana was "The Boss" without any doubt. Now my question" Did anyone of the 3 Tops besides Levi mentioned anything like that? I cant believe that neither Duke, Lawrence or Obie would have said "I`m one of the Tops who does only the lalalas" :-)

btw: Sorry for my not so good English; I`m from Germany but I do my very best :-)

hi Tamla! i think you make a valid point. the Four Tops were a group. they were totally and without question dedicated to one another. and as a group, each member recognized the contributions of the others. while Levi was lead, it was still a shared success. for instance, Lawrence was apparently the true genius when it came to harmonies and helping to arrange their intricate jazz arrangements.

within the Supremes, yes there were more issues. some of it was because of their own personalities. Diana was a very prominent person - loved to perform and be in the spotlight, lots of natural leadership traits. Mary was more reserved, especially in the earlier years and into the mid 60s. she wasn't as naturally prone to jump forward and make all sorts of decisions.

i think the issues arose later when the motown machinery and the public really began to separate Diana from the group. when it became DIANA ROSS... and then supremes.

so i don't know that mary was opposed or felt slighted by singing the harmony parts. but it was when the group dynamics shifted and she became more just a backing singer to a solo star

[BobbyC]

I know a guy who knows most of the old Motown stars, and he told me that the 4 Tops didn't get along with each other, but that nobody cared because being in the tops was just a job for all of them. Maybe they were all just sick of each other, who knows? But anyway, looking at a group as a job is IMO the best way to handle the situation with a lead singer.

[blackguy69]

I kinda find that hard to believe seeing that they stayed together til Lawrence’s passing

I know a guy who knows most of the old Motown stars, and he told me that the 4 Tops didn't get along with each other, but that nobody cared because being in the tops was just a job for all of them. Maybe they were all just sick of each other, who knows? But anyway, looking at a group as a job is IMO the best way to handle the situation with a lead singer.

[BobbyC]

That's what he said. He said that unlike the Supremes, the Tops just weren't emotionally involved. They went to work, collected the checks, and went home. I don't know the Tops but it sounds like their approach, if true, was the right way to approach being in a group.

[Boogiedown]

That's what he said. He said that unlike the Supremes, the Tops just weren't emotionally involved. They went to work, collected the checks, and went home. I don't know the Tops but it sounds like their approach, if true, was the right way to approach being in a group.

that sounds right. most interesting. Also as with The Supremes , they weren't individually invested and they weren't "artists" in the way musical groups , say The Isleys , were. They weren't creating music, writing songs , could any of them even play an instrument ??

They sang, and their bread and butter was in that dynamic voice of Levi Stubbs and that was fine with them. Just as Diana was for the Supremes.

[One big advantage for The Tops was they weren't fitting into their schedules each of them birthing babies and nurturing/ breast feeding young ones. That helps in the keeping of emotions out of it.]

[marybrewster]

It's apples and oranges. Or perhaps ooh's and aaah's.

There was no "star" or ego in the Tops, as evidenced by Levi's refusal to rename the group. He knew it was a team effort, with each voice playing an important role in the overall success.

[BobbyC]

I never heard any of the Tops questioning Levi being lead. He was obviously the right choice. Seems like the Tops knew it too.

[Circa 1824]

It's apples and oranges. Or perhaps ooh's and aaah's.

There was no "star" or ego in the Tops, as evidenced by Levi's refusal to rename the group. He knew it was a team effort, with each voice playing an important role in the overall success.

That is interesting considering the important role of The Andantes in their records. To my ears, it was Levi and The Andantes voices that soared in many of their hits.

[daviddh]

I think it was how the woman are treated in general.
Men get the respect while the woman had to work for it.
And I feel the mgmt made the other ladies feel unimportant.
Poor mgmt to me.

[Spreadinglove21]

I never cared when in her interviews Mary would dismiss her contributions to the group to just ooohing, ahhing, and baby-babying. The group sound when all they joined their voices together [[whether on record, when no Andantes present, or in performance), from the beginning until the end, is a major appeal, for me, of the Supremes.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

That is interesting considering the important role of The Andantes in their records. To my ears, it was Levi and The Andantes voices that soared in many of their hits.

Exactly, Circa. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

After all we've read over the years, I, too, find it hard to believe that The Tops didn't get along -- especially after learning that Levi sat in the audience confined to his wheelchair -- crying his heart out while watching his beloved partners on stage performing. It seems to me that tears wouldn't be shed for a group that was no longer getting along.

[BobbyC]

Ugh. Man people take things completely wrong on the internet. I did not mean to covey they hated each other. I didn't say that. According to my friend, the Tops just saw the group thing as a job and didn't have any of the group infighting other groups did.After shows they tended to go their separate ways and maybe that is the right way to do it.

[Boogiedown]

I never cared when in her interviews Mary would dismiss her contributions to the group to just ooohing, ahhing, and baby-babying. The group sound when all they joined their voices together [[whether on record, when no Andantes present, or in performance), from the beginning until the end, is a major appeal, for me, of the Supremes.

I suspect Mary was simply beating them to the punch, before they could ask something like , "and what Supremes songs did you sing lead on?" or some such innocent but ignorant inquiry.

I sang the ooohs OK? So lets get that out of the way ...

to say more would've come off sounding defensive too ....so just play along ...

[RanRan79]

I never cared when in her interviews Mary would dismiss her contributions to the group to just ooohing, ahhing, and baby-babying. The group sound when all they joined their voices together [[whether on record, when no Andantes present, or in performance), from the beginning until the end, is a major appeal, for me, of the Supremes.

I appreciate that this "bash Mary" thread bait quickly went in another direction. We should do this more often when these baity threads appear.

Anywho...regarding Mary dismissing her role, I don't think I've noticed her doing that. There is, however, a great interview Mary gave that is somewhere in this forum, where she talked about how complex the backing vocalist role is compared to the lead. She said something along the lines of when a singer is singing lead, they pretty much have to focus on their own voice and conveying the message. The background singers have the "difficult" task of figuring out how to compliment their voices together to do the same thing, and compliment the lead vocal. It was something like that, I can't remember it word for word. But it gave great insight into how she and Florence approached their job.

[RanRan79]

Ugh. Man people take things completely wrong on the internet. I did not mean to covey they hated each other. I didn't say that. According to my friend, the Tops just saw the group thing as a job and didn't have any of the group infighting other groups did.After shows they tended to go their separate ways and maybe that is the right way to do it.

You said they didn't get along. While one can make a distinction between "didn't get along" and "hate", the point you conveyed with the accusation that they didn't get along pretty much boils down to the same thing. You can't blame that on people taking things the wrong way on the internet. That's what you said.

I don't buy for one minute that the Tops were not close friends, considering they've said they were close friends. I imagine all the groups approached their work with a similar attitude of it being a job...one that they loved doing. The dynamics of such, though, would be different for each group for a number of reasons. As already stated previously, comparing the Supremes to the Tops is apples to oranges.

But again, the thread's goal wasn't really to dig into the history of the Four Tops, but had another goal in mind.

[jobeterob]

That is interesting considering the important role of The Andantes in their records. To my ears, it was Levi and The Andantes voices that soared in many of their hits.

Do we know that there were no Tops on some of the records? Just Levi and Andantes?

I know female voices were prominent on some songs but always thought there was a little bit of Top buried in their somewhere, more so than Mary and Cindy?

[bradsupremes]

Do we know that there were no Tops on some of the records? Just Levi and Andantes?

I know female voices were prominent on some songs but always thought there was a little bit of Top buried in their somewhere, more so than Mary and Cindy?

There are only a few instances where it was just Levi. "Oh I've Been Blessed" [[with the Andantes), "Don't You Think You Owe Me Something" [[with Ashford & Simpson), "I Can't Stop This Feeling" [[with the Andantes & the Originals). There may be a few others but the Tops were usually there with Levi.

[gman]

Well...I'm sure it helped keep things pleasant The TOPS didn't have Berry Gordy taking special interest, planning and developing a superstar to be launched only after building a "superstar" within the group....the TOPS were one tight unit...

[jim aka jtigre99]

I believe I read that the Tops had been together for quite some time before they came to Motown. I am not sure if they looked at the group as business or a brotherhood but I remember reading that they thought of Levi for Lady Sings the Blues and he passed because it would have left the group with nothing to do while he filmed.
Mary always brought up her oohs and ahhhs and her baby babys and perhaps when she left Motown, record execs aware of only the 60's asked can she sing? Even a few years before she passed she thanked the 70s groupings and said they were much more talented than I, which showed she continued to downplay her own talents saying she was a fantastic entertainer but not a fantastic singer. I am sure it didn't help that Gordy allegedly told her she couldn't sing.
The Supremes started together as teens and formed a bond like sisters so it may have felt very personal to each of them, so comparing them to others is like apples and oranges.

[RanRan79]

Well...I'm sure it helped keep things pleasant The TOPS didn't have Berry Gordy taking special interest, planning and developing a superstar to be launched only after building a "superstar" within the group....the TOPS were one tight unit...

Which is why it doesn't make a lot of sense to compare them and think group members of both entities should have thought alike. I'm sure if Levi ego tripped like Diana, the Tops might have tore some stuff up behind the scenes. Levi accepted his role as lead singer but he never stopped looking out for his fellow members. Diana accepted her role as lead singer, but clearly she didn't have the same mentality as Levi.

[RanRan79]

I believe I read that the Tops had been together for quite some time before they came to Motown. I am not sure if they looked at the group as business or a brotherhood but I remember reading that they thought of Levi for Lady Sings the Blues and he passed because it would have left the group with nothing to do while he filmed.
Mary always brought up her oohs and ahhhs and her baby babys and perhaps when she left Motown, record execs aware of only the 60's asked can she sing? Even a few years before she passed she thanked the 70s groupings and said they were much more talented than I, which showed she continued to downplay her own talents saying she was a fantastic entertainer but not a fantastic singer. I am sure it didn't help that Gordy allegedly told her she couldn't sing.
The Supremes started together as teens and formed a bond like sisters so it may have felt very personal to each of them, so comparing them to others is like apples and oranges.

I have heard Mary downplay her own vocal abilities, but never heard her downplay her role in the group. But yeah, that always annoyed me that she would knock her own talent in comparison to Flo, Diana and the others.

Acknowledging that "talent" is subjective, IMO in the early days, based off those initial Primettes/Supremes recordings, Mary was as good a vocalist as Florence and Diana. They all had their strengths and weaknesses, of course. Mary always had a gorgeous tone. There was just something special about her tone, which ultimately made her such an integral part of the background, but as a lead vocalist, she had something that someone should have taken an interest in. She was a strong singer. Her lead vocals from the mid 60s thru the early 70s didn't always showcase this. Maybe it was self confidence or something else, but clearly at some point her lead vocal abilities weren't as strong as they once were. As the 70s moved on, Mary got stronger and stronger as a singer, and by the time her story ended, Mary was one of the few singers of her generation IMO who still sounded on top of her game.

[thanxal]

these baity threads

So we should master them?

[RanRan79]

So we should master them?

At your own risk. Supposedly you might go blind.

[bradsupremes]

I have heard Mary downplay her own vocal abilities, but never heard her downplay her role in the group. But yeah, that always annoyed me that she would knock her own talent in comparison to Flo, Diana and the others.

Acknowledging that "talent" is subjective, IMO in the early days, based off those initial Primettes/Supremes recordings, Mary was as good a vocalist as Florence and Diana. They all had their strengths and weaknesses, of course. Mary always had a gorgeous tone. There was just something special about her tone, which ultimately made her such an integral part of the background, but as a lead vocalist, she had something that someone should have taken an interest in. She was a strong singer. Her lead vocals from the mid 60s thru the early 70s didn't always showcase this. Maybe it was self confidence or something else, but clearly at some point her lead vocal abilities weren't as strong as they once were. As the 70s moved on, Mary got stronger and stronger as a singer, and by the time her story ended, Mary was one of the few singers of her generation IMO who still sounded on top of her game.

In the Primettes/early Supremes days, I've always felt Mary had the best voice out of the four of them. She really had the perfect girl group lead vocal of that time. I think the lack of confidence and lack of exercise at lead was one of the reasons why Mary's vocal lead abilities in the mid-60s thru 1972 was a bit on the weak end. Gaining control of the group after 1973 and also working with a vocal coach strengthen her vocals where she could really showcase her gift.

People have trashed on Mary and Flo for not having the kind of vocal gift Diana had, but I've always felt if they got the same experience of vocal training on lead like Diana did they would have come out just as strong. They got vocal training in harmonizing, but that's totally different from actual lead vocal approach of lyric and emotional interpretation.

[RanRan79]

In the Primettes/early Supremes days, I've always felt Mary had the best voice out of the four of them. She really had the perfect girl group lead vocal of that time. I think the lack of confidence and lack of exercise at lead was one of the reasons why Mary's vocal lead abilities in the mid-60s thru 1972 was a bit on the weak end. Gaining control of the group after 1973 and also working with a vocal coach strengthen her vocals where she could really showcase her gift.

I'm with you on Mary having the perfect girl group sound. I don't believe she was any better than the other two when it comes to raw talent, but as I've said in this forum before, Mary had this thing in her voice- I call it a "cry"- that made her voice come across tailor-made for all those puppy love girl group songs of the day in that early era. Flo's voice was too brash for those types of songs, IMO. Diana's voice was overly whiny and I think she often sang higher than she should have until her voice matured some.

It's interesting though, that Gordy early on favored Diana, followed by Florence, over Mary. I wonder how their stage presence factored into Gordy's early vision. Both Diana and Flo have been described as coming alive on stage during the early days. Never heard Mary described that way. I wonder if Gordy looking to the other two as leads took into account how they came across at the lead mic, visually. Perhaps Mary was more laidback, understated, perfect for the background role but not necessarily all that engaging when up front? Just speculating.

But yeah, it seems Mary lost something between that emotional re-recording of "Sunset" in late 1964 and her boring interpretation of "Come and Get These Memories". I am keeping in mind that her voice could have been undergoing some changes due to aging. But I'm also not being entirely fair to her either, because I think her vocal on "Our Day Will Come" is very good, as is her vocal on "Davy Crockett", although neither of them show off the strength in her voice like what is displayed on "Sunset".

[RanRan79]

People have trashed on Mary and Flo for not having the kind of vocal gift Diana had, but I've always felt if they got the same experience of vocal training on lead like Diana did they would have come out just as strong. They got vocal training in harmonizing, but that's totally different from actual lead vocal approach of lyric and emotional interpretation.

I got some backlash in the forum once for suggesting that if Diana Ross was in a singing group with Aretha Franklin and Gladys Knight, that people would dog Aretha and Gladys in favor of Diana. I stand by that statement. It's not enough for some to think highly of Diana. They have to do it at the expense of Flo and Mary, something I have never needed to do as a Diana fan. [[That's not to say that every negative opinion of Flo and/or Mary's talents are influenced by someone's love of Diana Ross.)

Anyone who thinks "Tears of Sorrow"/"Who's Loving You"/"I Want a Guy" Diane Ross would have blossomed into "My World Is Empty"/"You Can't Hurry Love"/"Reflections" Diana Ross singing behind Flo or Mary 99 percent of the time is a lunatic. Diana received years of on the job training and guidance to get as good as she became. Had Flo and Mary gotten the same attention, I agree, they would also have only gotten better. Shoot, Florence hadn't had a lead in the studio since the fall of 1965, hadn't sung lead on stage since maybe the fall of 1966, hadn't even been onstage since the early summer of 1967 and she still managed to secure herself a record deal with a major player in the industry. Imagine how much better she would have been with all that attention.

You charted out Mary's progression in the 70s perfectly. Finally she was getting the on the job training at lead that she really needed. It provided her with the perfect springboard for her solo career, a career that, again, provided her with more time to perfect her craft. Whatever my criticisms are of Mary's solo career and the way she handled it, she grew to possess a great voice.

[sup_fan]

see i disagree to some point. I don't think Diana's emotional interpretation of lyric was training but talent. that isn't to say she didn't grow and improve her interpretation. but listen to Your Heart Belongs To Me. her skills on that record are WAY beyond the limited recording experience she had.

and this isn't necessarily to dog or put down M and F. but to identify Diana as just truly [[almost bizarrely) unique. her voice had the ability to adapt to so many different genres.

i do agree that M and F did not have the opportunity to train and develop their talents, of which they had lots! Flo might not have had the flexibility in her voice to be as pliable as Diana, but then again, Diana couldn't have done Good News like Flo did. Sure D would have done a nice job. it probably would have come off similar to what we got on Johnny One Note. but Flo took it to another level [[as she would have IMO with Johnny)

similarly Mary had wonderful singing capabilities but again she wasn't as able to jump between genres like Diana. I do agree that as time went on in the later 70s, she became much more expressive in her singing. and i agree she wasn't given the opportunities to test, explore and experiment in the studio. it's hard to sort of put into words but i just find most of her leads too "straight" or flat. i don't mean flat in terms of pitch but flat in terms of rises and falls.

Both M and F were extremely talented and fortunately we have examples recorded of them doing wonderful things. but that doesn't mean everything they touched was gold. IMO the fact remains that the songs on Flo's ABC record or some of Mary's leads just aren't that strong. that isn't meant to discredit them, bash them or reduce their contributions to the legacy of the group. it's meant to be honest and serious discussion and dialog about a topic we're all insanely passionate about and a topic we're all too happy to go into the smallest minutia on and inspect.

[sup_fan]

another thing is we're going off of the released material as we make these decisions and discussions.

for instance, i find Mary's lead on I Keep It Hid to be rather uninspired. that is, the released lead. the version on the MW Anthology, overall, it a much more interesting, passionate and engaging version. i don't know why it wasn't selected, except for maybe some of the ad libs and all are a bit clunky. i don't know if they were splicing versions together, if they could have taken Mary's unreleased verses and then added in the released ending.

We Should Be Closer Together is another one. in this case, the released one was very good. but the unreleased was even better! same with Teardrops. maybe people thought they were a bit too "soulful" or something. kind of like with YCHL and how they went with the more straightforward lead by Diana versus the more syncopated and soulful version on L&F [[aside from the booboo she makes)

so that bring up the question that maybe there were more exciting and spirited takes of some of Mary's leads but they weren't used.

[Spreadinglove21]

Come and Get These Memories is the nadir of Mary's recorded lead vocals. Why it wasn't vaulted I'll never know.

[RanRan79]

see i disagree to some point. I don't think Diana's emotional interpretation of lyric was training but talent. that isn't to say she didn't grow and improve her interpretation. but listen to Your Heart Belongs To Me. her skills on that record are WAY beyond the limited recording experience she had.

and this isn't necessarily to dog or put down M and F. but to identify Diana as just truly [[almost bizarrely) unique. her voice had the ability to adapt to so many different genres.

i do agree that M and F did not have the opportunity to train and develop their talents, of which they had lots! Flo might not have had the flexibility in her voice to be as pliable as Diana, but then again, Diana couldn't have done Good News like Flo did. Sure D would have done a nice job. it probably would have come off similar to what we got on Johnny One Note. but Flo took it to another level [[as she would have IMO with Johnny)

similarly Mary had wonderful singing capabilities but again she wasn't as able to jump between genres like Diana. I do agree that as time went on in the later 70s, she became much more expressive in her singing. and i agree she wasn't given the opportunities to test, explore and experiment in the studio. it's hard to sort of put into words but i just find most of her leads too "straight" or flat. i don't mean flat in terms of pitch but flat in terms of rises and falls.

Both M and F were extremely talented and fortunately we have examples recorded of them doing wonderful things. but that doesn't mean everything they touched was gold. IMO the fact remains that the songs on Flo's ABC record or some of Mary's leads just aren't that strong. that isn't meant to discredit them, bash them or reduce their contributions to the legacy of the group. it's meant to be honest and serious discussion and dialog about a topic we're all insanely passionate about and a topic we're all too happy to go into the smallest minutia on and inspect.

I agree that part of Diana's talent was her interpretation ability. But you can have all the interpretation skills in the world and still not have a captivating voice. Diana eventually grew into a singer who had great command of her instrument. She did not have that in those early days. Smokey was able to finally get a good read on her and pair her with a song that allowed her abilities to really shine. She was always a good singer. If she hadn't been, she never would have been picked to join the group in the first place. But she definitely had her weaknesses, as I said before. They all did. But they also all had strengths. Diana just ended up being the one Gordy believed in the most and she and her talent benefited from that attention.

As far as Mary being able to sing different genres, I disagree there. I don't think her voice was as pliable as Diana's, but Mary could sing R&B, pop and jazz, the latter of which she may have been better at than Diana. I still believe she should have sung lead on the whole "People", and some of those standards and jazzy numbers that the group did, Mary could have sung and done them justice. I also believe she would have done a much better job with "Yesterday" than Diana did, and that was a missed opportunity.

No, everything Flo and Mary sang wasn't top notch. I don't think anyone was suggesting that. Truth is, not everything Diana has sung has been the best of the best either, at any point in her career. That's just how it is. But luckily for Diana, her catalog of her talent is vast, compared to the relatively little we have of Flo and Mary.

[gman]

Ran Ran....1985 the first time I saw Mary Wilson live, I couldn't believe that what I heard was never caught on record....she was my favorite Supreme...I was expecting the soft whispery ballard voice that I loved...it was like a warm caressing breeze....because, up to that point that's what we got...the first song was My Love Life Is A Disaster....of course, I didn't know the song and it did have a rather bold arrangement....so OK we got a jumper for a opener...understood!....but the 2nd song was Stoned Love...and I was like WOW! ....her leads had gotten stronger and better...but nothing even in the last 3 LPS was close to the singing Mary was doing live....YOU DANCED MY HEART AROUD THE STARS is the earliest example of Mary being very powerful...but that was unreleased so the very first recording that I thought captured her power was Don't Get Mad Get Even....Walk The Line was miles beyond the debut LP and you can really hear how she developed her chops...I saw Mary about 10x...always great...only Supreme I have ever seen live. I would have loved to see Mary Scherrie and Cindy more than any other line up.

[RanRan79]

Come and Get These Memories is the nadir of Mary's recorded lead vocals. Why it wasn't vaulted I'll never know.

In the studio? I agree about her Supremes years. However, I think her vocal on "Ooh Child" for Ian Levine was much, much worse.

On stage, I think her part in "Enjoy Yourself" did her no favors. It's not very good at all. She isn't particularly all that good on "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" on the Hollywood Palace. It was a horrible way to introduce a television audience to Mary Wilson, lead singer.

[RanRan79]

Ran Ran....1985 the first time I saw Mary Wilson live, I couldn't believe that what I heard was never caught on record....she was my favorite Supreme...I was expecting the soft whispery ballard voice that I loved...it was like a warm caressing breeze....because, up to that point that's what we got...the first song was My Love Life Is A Disaster....of course, I didn't know the song and it did have a rather bold arrangement....so OK we got a jumper for a opener...understood!....but the 2nd song was Stoned Love...and I was like WOW! ....her leads had gotten stronger and better...but nothing even in the last 3 LPS was close to the singing Mary was doing live....YOU DANCED MY HEART AROUD THE STARS is the earliest example of Mary being very powerful...but that was unreleased so the very first recording that I thought captured her power was Don't Get Mad Get Even....Walk The Line was miles beyond the debut LP and you can really hear how she developed her chops...I saw Mary about 10x...always great...only Supreme I have ever seen live. I would have loved to see Mary Scherrie and Cindy more than any other line up.

I've never seen Mary live in person, only videos. From my perspective she was sometimes hit or miss. I didn't always think she chose the right songs to show off her skillset. And then sometimes I thought she overdid it, especially with some Supremes tunes, and that didn't do her any favors. But she had "Piano In the Dark" in her set at some point- a song I always thought she could have had a hit with if she had sung it instead of Brenda Russell- and she didn't disappoint. Her version of "Coming Out Of the Dark" is particularly good, I say as a HUGE Gloria Estefan [[and Miami Sound Machine) fan. She did that song justice.

[carlo]

I agree with you, RanRan. Mary's live covers of "Piano in the Dark" and "Coming Out of the Dark" have always been top favourites of mine as well.

[gman]

Saw Mary do both of those...I always loved her singing Someday We'll Be Together and Reflections....I could do without the 2nd Supremes medley....Come See About Me was good, but I grew to hate You Can't Hurry Love from Phil's overplayed version, and I didn't like her singing Back In My Arms Again...

She did also perform Stevie's version of We Can Work It Out....and another time Heaven Help Us All....and she did them excellent....wasn't a big fan of Dr Dr or Brown Sugar...leave that stuff to Tina. Bad Co's Can't Get Enough was very good when she performed it....and I thought Fields of Gold was a perfect choice for the softer ballard style she was known for while a Supreme.

[jim aka jtigre99]

The thing is out of the originals-Diana had the most distinctive and pliable voice but it started off a bit too nasal and whiny but improved as she had so much opportunity to sing different genres and develop her vocal muscles.
Florence has always been touted as the best singer and she certainly was quite powerful but seemingly never got the chance to develop to her full potential whether it be because of a huge lack of opportunity or her personal issues at the time.
Mary had a wonderful voice and she has been unfairly regarded as just a capable background singer. Her tone is something that was outstanding and she was able to be the anchor to blend their voices for harmony. Diana even wrote that Mary had a beautiful harmony voice with a great deal of warmth to it and that she carried the exact right sound between her and Florence. Can you imagine if all three sounded like Diana? The group would have been more like the BeeGees than the Supremes. Once Mary sang more , her vocal strength returned. I remember reading one of the Hollands were pleased with her work on High Energy saying I knew what she could do and once she gained her confidence, she did it.
I would say even up until her passing, she possessed a strong voice that was perfect for ballads, jazz and the American Songbook and that it was strong enough to branch out into rock and soul much better as she developed. Also, look at Touch-it may not have been the right song to have as a single but she did a good job on it. I would have preferred her as sole lead rather than sharing with Jean. Jean comes in too loud and shrill and it isn't a cohesive sound. Smokey did a better job with them on Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine. Plus, Jean was fine on ballads like IGIMTM.
I still think that had they featured Mary more on what she was good it, she would have had more confidence and developed sooner. Onstage, Mary projected a cool confidence and elegance along with perfect dance moves. That certainly changed with DRATS and the 70's when she was more animated. Plus, if DMF would have all been animated it may have resulted in a similar look to how MSS were on stage.

[sup_fan]

In the studio? I agree about her Supremes years. However, I think her vocal on "Ooh Child" for Ian Levine was much, much worse.

On stage, I think her part in "Enjoy Yourself" did her no favors. It's not very good at all. She isn't particularly all that good on "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" on the Hollywood Palace. It was a horrible way to introduce a television audience to Mary Wilson, lead singer.

see i think Enjoy Yourself is hard to judge, without the visuals of them on stage. I think mary sounds fine on it. and if you look at the various pics of them in the blue floral dresses that were used in the Copa EE, you see them hamming it up on stage and all sorts of playfulness. that's how i envision mary delivering her lines on Enjoy - toying with a few audience members up front, giving a wink and a sexy little side grin. having fun with it since the song is clearly meant to be lighthearted and silly. i just wish flo had done her verse.

but agree on Can't Take. vocally it's decent enough but nothing exceptional. but i don't think someone could have performed with more dead eyes and lifeless expression on her face.

[sup_fan]

I agree that part of Diana's talent was her interpretation ability. But you can have all the interpretation skills in the world and still not have a captivating voice. Diana eventually grew into a singer who had great command of her instrument. She did not have that in those early days. Smokey was able to finally get a good read on her and pair her with a song that allowed her abilities to really shine. She was always a good singer. If she hadn't been, she never would have been picked to join the group in the first place. But she definitely had her weaknesses, as I said before. They all did. But they also all had strengths. Diana just ended up being the one Gordy believed in the most and she and her talent benefited from that attention.

As far as Mary being able to sing different genres, I disagree there. I don't think her voice was as pliable as Diana's, but Mary could sing R&B, pop and jazz, the latter of which she may have been better at than Diana. I still believe she should have sung lead on the whole "People", and some of those standards and jazzy numbers that the group did, Mary could have sung and done them justice. I also believe she would have done a much better job with "Yesterday" than Diana did, and that was a missed opportunity.

No, everything Flo and Mary sang wasn't top notch. I don't think anyone was suggesting that. Truth is, not everything Diana has sung has been the best of the best either, at any point in her career. That's just how it is. But luckily for Diana, her catalog of her talent is vast, compared to the relatively little we have of Flo and Mary.

my comments about Flo and Mary not turning everything to gold is mostly a comment directed at the fans. there are those that feel [[or appear to at least) that because Flo or Mary is their favorite, that EVERY SONG they ever sang is flawless and the most glorious thing ever waxed. i love every one of the supremes but the fun here is to dissect every detail and situation and event, as crazed fans tend to do lol. completely agree that there are tunes that diana does NOT handle well, of course Beyond Myself was Jean are her worst. they all made mistakes but that's the fun of being fans. we can love their faults and triumphs

i think Yesterday could have been a great fit for mary, as diana is bit to cloying and sentimental on it. But mary might also have delivered a very flatline, straight forward reading.

I also think Flo should have done Unchained Melody. the Righteous Bros version was so soulful and powerful. and then the sups was so prim and sugary. flo might have injected some power and emotion into this tune

[Boogiedown]

While you have to have something to build off of, most of the skill is in the studio. Especially if the producers have a vision of what they want out of you. They'll take you there.

That's what makes studio alternate takes so interesting. They keep reworking you until you get it right. Now I'm thinking that's why they started replacing the girls with the Andantes. Diana was willing to do the work, go the extra mile. As heard on an outtake of SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER she's not yet close to nailing it, she knows it, and she just shrugs at the end and says cheerfully lets do another one.
Maybe the other two weren't quite as accommodating. And it's a lot easier [3x] to get a solo artist sounding good, than blending and bringing out the best in each of the three. So just let Diana record and plug in the backgrounders who aren't invested in being a Supreme.

LOVE HANGOVER is massively edited and layered and pieced together, the results making Diana Ross sound masterful in her rendering, including every properly placed giggle and sigh.

[floyjoy678]

I miss Mary. But I've read from other fans that she was always happy which makes me happy to hear she lived her life to its fullest. Mary had a great voice and I wish she didn't downplay herself like that.

[thanxal]

there are those that feel [[or appear to at least) that because Flo or Mary is their favorite, that EVERY SONG they ever sang is flawless and the most glorious thing ever waxed.

Wait. What? They're not???????

[sup_fan]

Wait. What? They're not???????

yes - shocking i know! lol there are some fans that just worship these girls lol

[jim aka jtigre99]

Not everything any of them did is perfect. Diana can release songs that are lightweight vocally and can sound mushy. Flo was loud but did not always master nuance in her performance, Mary sometimes did not sing with enough emotion and Jean could sound nasal and shrill. None are perfect but when they strike gold, no one can touch them.

[sup_fan]

Not everything any of them did is perfect. Diana can release songs that are lightweight vocally and can sound mushy. Flo was loud but did not always master nuance in her performance, Mary sometimes did not sing with enough emotion and Jean could sound nasal and shrill. None are perfect but when they strike gold, no one can touch them.

exactly. that's just my point. there are fans that just simply worship every song Flo or mary leads and either don't hear or don't wish to hear even the slightest critique of their performances.

and you're also right. every lady had moments that simply takes your breath away they're so good