Berry Gordy denies the Marvin Gaye/"What's Going On" stories

[marv2]

When exactly was the last time anyone heard about or from Lionel Ritchie?

[Jimi LaLumia]

didn't he host Motown 40 with Kelly Rowland & the Supremes?....lol

[marv2]

didn't he host Motown 40 with Kelly Rowland & the Supremes?....lol

But wasn't that like 10 years ago or something? LOL!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Exactly!........

[daddyacey]

Ahhhh , the Tammi/Marvin/Valerie question makes its yearly appearence here. And again I will post this link as food for thought
on this subject. As I respect the insight of my fellow SDF members ,I will leave it up to you all to draw your opinions from this article ,and pay close attention to the dates mentioned. This article was from Nov 1969 ,which means it was written around Oct. Important because of the line, "has not recorded for 2 years".
This is why I love this space and you people and our conversations/exchange of ideas and opinions.
Team Marv in the hizzouse!!!

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFD...errell&f=false

[kenneth]

What a beautiful article and what amazing photographs of Tammi. If you go back to the beginning of the magazine, on one of the first pages you'll see a full page ad for Motown's latest releases, including "Easy" [[which oddly credits it only to Marvin Gaye!), Supremes and Temptations "Together" and the Marvelettes "In Full Bloom."

I notice in the article it says that she had returned to the studio "last Spring" which would have been March or April of 1969 which was about 6 months prior to this November 1969 issue of Ebony coming out. "Easy" was already released; according to Wikipedia, "Easy" was released on September 16, 1969. So from this timeline she certainly could have contributed to some of the vocals. Perhaps we'll never know the whole story.

Also very nice to learn that Gordy paid for all the medical care and she thanks him wholeheartedly for it, even stating she didn't even know the cost.

Thanks so much for posting this, Daddyacey! What a great find.

[RossHolloway]

Ahhhh , the Tammi/Marvin/Valerie question makes its yearly appearence here. And again I will post this link as food for thought
on this subject. As I respect the insight of my fellow SDF members ,I will leave it up to you all to draw your opinions from this article ,and pay close attention to the dates mentioned. This article was from Nov 1969 ,which means it was written around Oct. Important because of the line, "has not recorded for 2 years".
This is why I love this space and you people and our conversations/exchange of ideas and opinions.
Team Marv in the hizzouse!!!

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFD...errell&f=false

I do remember reading that article now. But had forgotten the part of her being engaged to D. Ruffin only to find out later that he was already married! But two years....interesting. Sounds to me like the mystery has been solved. I wonder what Valerie Simpson has to say about that?

[marv2]

I also remember that article and the pictures from back then and seeing it again years later. You are right Daddy, if she had recorded in two years by the time of this article that would have put her last studio sessions at around
Aug.-Oct 1967!!!

Kenneth great points. From April to Sept 1969 is not a whole time to complete recording and the release of the album even if she was in the best of health!

[rod_rick]

One thing I noticed about the Ebony article, first it said Tammi was returning to the studio after a NEARLY TWO YEAR absent. Then further down it stated that she recorded last spring. So was that the spring of 69 or spring of 68?

[kenneth]

One thing I noticed about the Ebony article, first it said Tammi was returning to the studio after a NEARLY TWO YEAR absent. Then further down it stated that she recorded last spring. So was that the spring of 69 or spring of 68?

That would have meant Spring of '69. I was musing on that up above. "Last spring" would mean earlier in the year; if they meant 1968, I think they would have written "Spring of last year." So I think they meant she hadn't recorded for 2 years prior to "last Spring," which would mean March or April of 1967. The recording sessions for "Easy" seem to have been made, at least some of them, in the March-April time frame, such as referred to in the recording notes from the other poster above. But even in that specific excerpt it only shows Gaye's vocal in the later time frame, and the other vocals much earlier in the year. Of course that was only one track.

Regardless, a November magazine probably hit the stands in late September or early October at the latest. "Easy" was released in September of 1969 and is advertised in the same magazine early in the issue. So I think it is possible she contributed to some of the vocals. I've waxed and waned on this issue some, but I think I'm going to conclude there were a few recording sessions conducted with her, but that based on the quality and her stamina, Simpson ended up doing most if not all of the vocals which were ultimately released as "Easy." The final test is the recordings themselves, and no way can I be convinced it is Tammi except on the earlier solo recordings [[I think there are 2) such as "Can't Believe You Love Me," with Gaye's vocals obviously added to the mix.

[Motown_M_1056]

What did Berry say that was a lie, or spinning, or different then what has been said before? It just seems that he was just giving details of the general story that has been going around for years.

I agree. I didn't read anything that Berry Gordy Jjr. has not said before about WGO and being concerned about Marvin Gaye's image. The man was consistent with how he felt and has said all along. What lies/ What back=peddling? When it comes to Berry Gordy, some on tghe forum love tp paint him as Simon LeGree. Grow up!

[carlo]

No, it is a pill that you seem desparately intent on forcing down the throats of the public. I don't know exactly what the deal is with the public up there where you are in B.C. Canada, but I do know that you can include Mary Wilson [[and several others including Martha Reeves, Gladys Knight and the Jacksons) to that list of very well known Motown stars. Heck, she was just on here again in New York hosting one of T.J Lubinsky's television specials last weekend!

Interestingly, they know her well enough in Canada to make it possible for her to tour for a full year as the star of the play "Beehive" in 1988 apart from her concert appearances there. Would you like to discuss Russia next?

Exactly. Martha Reeves even starred in a Canadian TV documentary that aired last year [[or the year before?). I'm not sure how recent it was, but it had to do with Motown and how she was mentoring some young school kids over here. It aired on Bravo quite a few times. I only caught the end of it each time!

Everywhere I go, people like to bring up the fact that I am a Motown fan. Years ago in my church youth group, our youth pastor brought up how I am a huge Motown fan and people started chiming in, "Oh you mean the Four Tops?!"..."Yeah! Martha & the Vandellas!", etc. This is the honest truth. I usually get disappointed because no one ever mentions Diana Ross or The Supremes, unless I bring them up. It's strange, because they're so popular, you would think people would know them more than anyone else. Years ago, my Mom had a photo print of The Supremes mounted on wood for me. She brought it in and the lady had no idea who they were. So I don't buy the story that most people only know of "THE BIG 5" Motown superstars.

I recently talked to one of my University professors and when I said "Mary Wilson", he immediately knew who she was and reacted very positively. I won't tell you what he said about Diana Ross. I'm sure it would make some people laugh...but for me, being a fan of her's, it was a little bit of an uncomfortable moment for me. lol.

[stephanie]

Interesting thread maybe I was too hard on Mr Gordy but hey I have my reasons. Kenneth and all thanks for the timelines we have great Motown detectives in this group.

[Roberta75]

Interesting thread maybe I was too hard on Mr Gordy but hey I have my reasons. Kenneth and all thanks for the timelines we have great Motown detectives in this group.

Do you actually know Mr. Gordy personally stephanie?

[kenneth]

Interesting thread maybe I was too hard on Mr Gordy but hey I have my reasons. Kenneth and all thanks for the timelines we have great Motown detectives in this group.

That Ebony article was illuminating and what heartbreaking photos of Tammi.

[jboy88]

Ahhhh , the Tammi/Marvin/Valerie question makes its yearly appearence here. And again I will post this link as food for thought
on this subject. As I respect the insight of my fellow SDF members ,I will leave it up to you all to draw your opinions from this article ,and pay close attention to the dates mentioned. This article was from Nov 1969 ,which means it was written around Oct. Important because of the line, "has not recorded for 2 years".
This is why I love this space and you people and our conversations/exchange of ideas and opinions.
Team Marv in the hizzouse!!!

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFD...errell&f=false

I've seen that article many times, ery intriging and sad at the same time. While I believe that Valerie Simpson participated vocally on the Album, I don't believe that Tammi didn't. This article being one of the factors to reasoning. I hope that sometime before i go back to school, that I can finally give a full thesis on my take. It's quite lenghty so it'll take some time, but i'm sure i'll open on some thoughts that haven't been entertained.

[daddyacey]

I have to admit that this article was posted to the old forum some years ago by another member ,whom I don't remember the name. I had saved it page by page then and when Google started its scan project of books and magazines it was easier to pull it up. It combined with other sources like the booklets of The Complete MG &TT Recordings CD ,other articles of the time period from JET ,BILLBOARD and assorted MOTOWN theamed books ,are the basis of my personal opinion that some of the recordings in question were a combination of "punched in" parts of both Tammi and Valerie. That is based on consideration of ,
1)the recording technology of the time in the industry and at MOTOWN,
2)the unique chemistry of the combination of MARVIN and TAMMI ,which was a step higher than the pairing of MARVIN and MARY WELLS,or KIM WESTON,
3)the need to continue the succsess of the unique chemistry of the combination of MARVIN and TAMMI by BERRYS need and drive for "hits" ,dispite the health issues that TAMMI suffered.
4) MARVINS stated displeasure of the way things were handled regarding the way the releases were handled after TAMMI got sick and the way he was forced to participate in the issue. [[Reefer smoker or what ever ,MARVIN was a straight up honest and GOD FEARING man ,who did not like bullshit)
5) The need to fill the void of HDH jumping ship and because of that the talents of the then newbies ASHFORD & SIMPSON were pushed to the front [[GOOD LOVING AIN'T EASY was recorded but not released by GLADYS and THE PIPS in 66, and the TAMMI solos that were turned into duets by dubbing MARVIN in must also be considered)
6) The fact that Ms SIMPSON is a musical genius and a stand up lady and as such has respect for TAMMI and her talents ,that if any of what you summised had happened ,it aint none of yall's business.
It will for all time remain just a topic of discussion ,like what came first ,the chicken or the egg. DONE.

[boywonder]

Why so much BG bashing? Would this site even exist if it wasn't for the man? He made Motown what it was and put this group of young, talented black musicians at the top of the music industry. He made mistakes, and he took a fair share of the profits, but come'on, have any of you ever even looked at what the rest of the record company owners were doing back then? It makes him look pretty good.

As to this story, well he admits that he didn't think it would be a hit, and admits that he was against it. How forceful he actually was is another issue, but it does not call for this level of personal attacks.

The man is far from perfect, but then who of us is? Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

By the way, I much prefer Marvin's 60's music over What's Going on. I appreciate it for what it is, but his 60's music is far more enjoyable.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I agree with that, I was/am a fan of the "Motown Sound" and What's Going On was the qqualude opposite of everything I loved about Gordy's Groove Machine;
I was not a fan of WGO, have no intention of buying it, although I adore 60's Marvin, not so much 70's Marvin

[jboy88]

I beg to differ! What's Going On Was just as Motown as his '60s material. After all, it had the Funk brothers and the andantes all giving stellar performances. It was a more dense, progressive sound but a Motown sound none the less.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, different strokes...I think the downtempo 70s stylings of Gaye and Wonder,and Ross morphing into Liza Minnelli ,Motown basically losing the plot,is what led to the need for 'disco', so that the dance clubs would have something uptempo and propulsive to play..

[stephanie]

Boywonder as much as I like Whats Going On I prefer the Motown Marvin of the 60s as well I just liked that sound behind him. WGO was a revolutionary album and it hit great strides but it was his Motown sound that enabled him to get to that point. Many said Marvin was a tortured soul and I sometimes wonder is this how he got all of his demons out with this album. Here My Dear is another album that seemed to express his needs and desires and hangups. I think he enjoyed doing these types of things more than the songs we love with the Motown machine. Stevie is the one who didnt have as many flops as Diana did making the transition but Diana was not a musician so that is to be expected. All 3 of them found success in the 70s and 80s though and I have to give them credit for changing with the times. So did the 70s Supremes and a lot of Motown acts left the label or couldnt make the transition. Motown had a LONG run and that is something to be proud of. I know some will disagree but I jump more when I hear Aint that Peculiar, or Too Busy Thinking about my Baby more so than WGO. WGO makes me think but the other ones make me happy. Believe it or not I can listen to Trouble Man more than WGO.

[stephanie]

Roberta
I dont know Berry Gordy personally. I know people [[two) that knew him and they have nothing but good things to say about him. One was a promoter [[Weldon) and the other is a singer and she had nothing bad to say but she thinks that the artists were ignored because of the Supremes but she accepts the fact that is was a business decision. Businessmen think differently than artists and fans do and I understand that.

[theboyfromxtown]

well, different strokes...I think the downtempo 70s stylings of Gaye and Wonder,and Ross morphing into Liza Minnelli ,Motown basically losing the plot,is what led to the need for 'disco', so that the dance clubs would have something uptempo and propulsive to play..

...and moving out of Detroit was the last straw....

[Roberta75]

Roberta
I dont know Berry Gordy personally. I know people [[two) that knew him and they have nothing but good things to say about him. One was a promoter [[Weldon) and the other is a singer and she had nothing bad to say but she thinks that the artists were ignored because of the Supremes but she accepts the fact that is was a business decision. Businessmen think differently than artists and fans do and I understand that.

Thank you Stephanie.

Roberta

[detmotownguy]

Gee thanks Marv...... leave me up for the draft...GRRRRR

[detmotownguy]

Hum interesting point....being raised in Detroit, there was a significant backlash against Motown for moving to the west coast. I am sure it had a certain impact on sales.

[detmotownguy]

Hum interesting point....being raised in Detroit, there was a significant backlash against Motown for moving to the west coast. I am sure it had a certain impact on sales.

[marv2]

Gee thanks Marv...... leave me up for the draft...GRRRRR

But we thought you were on vacation! You missed 2 practices by the way!

[marv2]

Hum interesting point....being raised in Detroit, there was a significant backlash against Motown for moving to the west coast. I am sure it had a certain impact on sales.

Oh man it was like they were turning the lights out when Motown left Detroit. Many of the artist and employees were still living in and around the Detroit area,but it just was not the same.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and when they left Detroit,the sound went soft and jazzy for the most part, or MOR for Miss Ross and a few others...
that created a need in the dance market,thus was born DISCO,and Motown spent the second half of the 70's catching up

[midnightman]

Berry Gordy has always backtracked on his accounts of how "What's Going On" came to be. He about said the same thing in an interview around the time "To Be Loved" came out saying that he was scared that Marvin's image as a sex symbol would be ruined by the song but Marvin wouldn't budge. Berry tries denying that politically he and Marvin were at odds [[Berry was allegedly a Nixon-voting Republican who was all about free capitalism; Marvin was a liberal, politically criticizing non-party picking free thinker - I don't know if Marvin ever voted, probably didn't - who didn't trust the government and had been questioning it even when he was growing up in D.C. ), also denies he and Marvin had physical arguments [[which Marvin said in interviews following his Motown exit and to David Ritz). Berry still trying to say that he understood where Marvin was coming from when even years later he admitted he didn't. I definitely believe the stories that the song was leaked and that Berry told people the song "sucked". Of course he's trying to do PR damage, which is IMHO 40 years too late. The song [[and the entire album) is a part of music history anyways.

[midnightman]

To be honest though I can also see Berry's side of the story, kind of. Who knows if what was written in books was fable or not but we know Marvin and Berry always were at odds in one way or another concerning material going back to Marvin's early years.

[captainjames]

Honestly as I said before I don't see a real big difference in what was said and what s being said now. It just sounds like a little bit of PR for the Anniversary of " What's Going On". Just to get everyone back in the mood for that mellow sound and pop those sales. I think I probably have everything on "What's Going On" to this day.

[midnightman]

Yeah like I said he's doing PR damage 40 years too late. Either way doesn't change anything. Just don't get why he felt the need to explain himself.

Marvin said all I needed to hear in that '81 interview when he said he and Berry clashed over a lot of issues. No wonder Berry don't want Marvin's bio out now!

[Jimi LaLumia]

it would be interesting if Gordy's lean were right wing/Republican/Nixon,as i clearly recall Diana Ross & the Supremes campaigning for/appearing with the competition, Hubert Humphrey,during the same period,;
if Gordy was a Nixon man, then the Ross thing was either a smokescreen[[people of color; not very big on Republicans),OR Miss Ross was in a position to express herself and her own personal lean..

[jboy88]

There were plenty of Black Republicans prior to the JFK elections. However, it's funny to state that Mr Gordy was a Nixon fan, as according to "To Be Loved" he was a supporter of Kennedy! [[ A side note, Marvin & Berry got into a fight over a racist term the day of the JFK assassination) He even named his son Kennedy [[Rockwell) after him.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I really doubt that The Supremes would have publicly got in Humphrey's corner if gordy was a Nixon man...

[jobeterob]

Captain James, you say this perfectly.

To see more in it is just to go looking for Motown negativity; I honestly don't see why the fans of Marvin, Berry, Motown and it's music would even bother.

It is the same thing that Mary Wilson asked people to stop.

Honestly as I said before I don't see a real big difference in what was said and what s being said now. It just sounds like a little bit of PR for the Anniversary of " What's Going On". Just to get everyone back in the mood for that mellow sound and pop those sales. I think I probably have everything on "What's Going On" to this day.

[RossHolloway]

Captain James, you say this perfectly.

To see more in it is just to go looking for Motown negativity; I honestly don't see why the fans of Marvin, Berry, Motown and it's music would even bother.

It is the same thing that Mary Wilson asked people to stop.

Good point. But seriously, think about it, the reporter is asking a man 81 years old about ONE album that came to be over 40 years ago. As if Berry has had nothing to do but sit and ponder since then *eyeroll*. I can't remember all the details from the conversations that I had just yesterday lol. Give Mr. Gordy some slack. I'm sure the conversation that he and Marvin had about this project wasn't just a one-off conversation but probably one of several about this record alone. Mr. Gordy explains his thought process he had with Marvin at that time. And I find nothing controversial about it at all. I mean, how odd do you think it is that a music producer may have a different opinion than an artist about their music or musical direction? People are making too much out of nothing here.

[jobeterob]

Another good post Ross. You just reminded me of the "good slap" Diana allegedly gave Berry in Rome over some "creative differences".!

[RossHolloway]

Another good post Ross. You just reminded me of the "good slap" Diana allegedly gave Berry in Rome over some "creative differences".!

Was this recreated for the movie Mahogany with D. Ross' and the photographer? lol

[1382hitsville]

I just re-read Berry's biography, and Diana's book. Both are from 16 years ago. In the mean time more information became available and it's an interesting read. Berry's take on What's Going On is no secret, he did not like it for commercial reasons. He had it released and when the money and respect came in he re-apppreciated it.

The shove on Motown 25...ah....come on. Emotions flared that night and let's not go on and on about it. Mary and Diana [[or Diane) have a special bond, sometimes a friendship and who are we to judge about it. Together with Florance, Cindy and the Andantes they have made great music. We still talk about it in an emotional manner 40 years on.

Tammi was one of the greatest singers of Motown [[buy her Hipo select CD and hear why...). If Valerie wants to deny her involvement in the sessions....it's her choice. Our ears are not wrong and you clearly can hear a different Tammi on some songs. Mixed or Valerie? Different!

[Jimi LaLumia]

like on Martha Reeves' "I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playing"..

[1382hitsville]

"I Can't Dance To That Music" from Martha is one of the greates mixes ever made! Martha wrote in her book [[pending to re-read) the amount she song on it. It's amazing Motown could make a whole singe out of it. Clever mixing!

[Jimi LaLumia]

it was a fantabulous single that should have been a real hit,but barely was heard in most places..

[jobeterob]

I better go listen to that song again. It obviously had a few fans.

[Jimi LaLumia]

in the 80's U.K. pop star Betty Boo had a nice sized hit with "I Can't Dance..."

[captainjames]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctY9FOok2xo
I loved the song probably years after it came out, I do not remember hearing it the time it was released.

[Jimi LaLumia]

here is the 1989 UK Top ten single by Betty Boo[[Beatmasters)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I0_j...eature=related