Still Within the Sound of My Voice/The Supremes JW

[sup_fan]

My question is, what DID Jean want to sing? It sounds like she wanted to ditch the MOR and showtunes. She reluctantly sang the Diana lead hits, as that's what the audience that came to see "The Supremes" wanted to hear. So what's left? There's been few instances where an LP cut was performed live. So I don't know what she wanted to fill a show with. Covers by the Carpenters?

my guess is her frustration with doing the 60s material was 1) the unfair but unavoidable comparisons with Diana 2) when they were almost doing more DRATS content than her own. by late 72 and into 73 they were doing 2 60s medleys and then maybe just Stoned Love and Bad Weather. 3) her overall disappointment with motown and how they were doing nothing to support her

and then they dumped most of the additional material that had been added during the Jean years [[feeling good, love the one you're with, love story, we've only just begun) and brought back DRATS songs [[somewhere, tcb, you're nobody)

so it would lead me to believe that she wanted to do more contemporary songs, more of her hits, more of her album material.

[jim aka jtigre99]

My question is, what DID Jean want to sing? It sounds like she wanted to ditch the MOR and showtunes. She reluctantly sang the Diana lead hits, as that's what the audience that came to see "The Supremes" wanted to hear. So what's left? There's been few instances where an LP cut was performed live. So I don't know what she wanted to fill a show with. Covers by the Carpenters?

From the accounts we have seen, Jean was somewhat difficult to work with. She was salaried and she was given the job as the new lead singer. Honestly, you would have to know what you were signing up for when she took the job in the Supremes. She apparently didn't like singing the old hits or do the act for which the Supremes had done for years. If Jean had ideas and plans she should have discussed them before she signed on. When she went solo to A&M in 1978, she didn't tour to support it. When she sang in the 80's and with the FLOs, she was singing what she didn't want to in the 70's. Plus, on here I read she also had some difficulties with Lynda and Scherrie. I honestly don't know what she expected to sing when she joined the group. She may have voiced her opinions as to what she would like to do and maybe got shot down by Motown, and to a lesser degree, Mary.

[sup_fan]

From the accounts we have seen, Jean was somewhat difficult to work with. She was salaried and she was given the job as the new lead singer. Honestly, you would have to know what you were signing up for when she took the job in the Supremes. She apparently didn't like singing the old hits or do the act for which the Supremes had done for years. If Jean had ideas and plans she should have discussed them before she signed on. When she went solo to A&M in 1978, she didn't tour to support it. When she sang in the 80's and with the FLOs, she was singing what she didn't want to in the 70's. Plus, on here I read she also had some difficulties with Lynda and Scherrie. I honestly don't know what she expected to sing when she joined the group. She may have voiced her opinions as to what she would like to do and maybe got shot down by Motown, and to a lesser degree, Mary.

as i understand it jean loves/loved to sing, being an artist. but she didn't love working as an entertainer. so many stars have given the advice to up and coming artists of "be sure to know and understand the BUSINESS, because that's what this really is. show BUSINESS."

prior to the Supremes jean was an unknown. her brother was somewhat known for a brief period as a boxer but i wouldn't put him in a mega-celebrity tier. his band with jean toured around a little but were hardly major stars. being with her family, the very low-key level of work they were doing, probably with considerable freedom in terms of what tunes they did on stage made this probably the best situation for jean. she wasn't one that was caught up in the star trappings. she wasn't necessarily looking for massive riches or huge world acclaim. she could have done this little bit of touring, maybe a record or two, sing her church choir as a soloist and raise a family. and probably been perfectly content.

[marybrewster]

as i understand it jean loves/loved to sing, being an artist. but she didn't love working as an entertainer. so many stars have given the advice to up and coming artists of "be sure to know and understand the BUSINESS, because that's what this really is. show BUSINESS."

prior to the Supremes jean was an unknown. her brother was somewhat known for a brief period as a boxer but i wouldn't put him in a mega-celebrity tier. his band with jean toured around a little but were hardly major stars. being with her family, the very low-key level of work they were doing, probably with considerable freedom in terms of what tunes they did on stage made this probably the best situation for jean. she wasn't one that was caught up in the star trappings. she wasn't necessarily looking for massive riches or huge world acclaim. she could have done this little bit of touring, maybe a record or two, sing her church choir as a soloist and raise a family. and probably been perfectly content.

The thing is, Jean wasn't joining the choir. She was joining THE SUPREMES. So unless Jean was stupid, she had to have SOME idea what she was getting into.

[sup_fan]

The thing is, Jean wasn't joining the choir. She was joining THE SUPREMES. So unless Jean was stupid, she had to have SOME idea what she was getting into.

i'm sure she knew this was huge. and various fans have shared different points of view. such as she pretty quickly discovered some of the down sides, that she and Mary had conflicts pretty much from the get go. but by the time all of that came about over those first six months, she had signed a contract, attended the farewell, had their first record pretty much ready to go.

it was too late to really turn back

also fans have shared that the first 12 - 18 months were really quite happy. sure not everything was perfect, but nothing is. the failure of the duets, the failure of the Touch lp and single, probably really impacted her. then you had the issue of her supposedly being salaried instead of earning royalties. not sure if that was the entirety of her contract or for an initial period.

but by late 71 she had been signed to motown for 2 years and in the public for 18 months. the sales were definitely declining. records were performing less on the charts. the show was still structured around the old formula, even if they were still using more current material than the DRATS songbook. The girls had limited at best input on the strategic direction of the group and the material they recorded and performed. As the lead singer she was doing the vast majority of the work and 1) being paid less and 2) having little input into how she should be presented. Bayou mentioned [[i think i remember the details accurately) that Jean was shown the Dynamite lp backstage or something and had had 0 knowledge that they were releasing ANOTHER duet album. and that she flipped her wig about it

then in 72 you had LSTB. Bayou also has mentioned that jean pretty much assumed that the movie would suck up any corporate interest in the supremes. that motown and everyone had moved on and again there was nothing the group could do about it. never mind that the group was still paying motown a % of every record and performance.

[marybrewster]

If she wasn't looking for massive riches or huge world acclaim, she shouldn't have joined. I'm confident that whatever she made with the Supremes, even by late 71, was still 10x what she was making with her brother.

So was it that she wanted a solo contract? She got that, then refused to do any touring or promotion.

And for as much beetching and complaining Jean did about singing "Diana's songs", she was sure quick to jump into the FLO'S to sing "Baby Love" for the 1000th time to get that paycheck.

Jean thought she could have it her way, and that's not the way showbiz works.

Jean is extremely talented, but should have never ventured into the entertainment industry.

[RanRan79]

Okay, this is a long one. Hope it doesn't bore you!

While I'm not discounting every viewpoint on the issue, I think it's worth mentioning that when we discuss Jean it's always what the fans said [[and I'm always left wondering how the fans know all of this, was Jean and company really in the habit of letting fans in on what was going on in the group?) or what some "insider" has offered up as an explanation, but never what Jean has said about it. Granted, part of this is Jean's fault because she apparently doesn't talk Supremes publicly, and when you don't talk, others will gladly speak for you.

I refuse to believe that Jean was stupid or clueless about the entertainment industry. I also refuse to believe that she joined the Supremes and did not expect to sing their hit songs. Sorry, not buying it. I'm not suggesting that she loved doing that, maybe she wasn't fond of the Supremes' hits, but again, she'd have to be stupid or clueless not to recognize that once she joined the Supremes, the group wouldn't suddenly stop singing the hits made famous by previous incarnations. Besides hearsay, I don't believe this was as big a deal as it is made out to be.

When it comes to Jean being difficult, who has really accused her of that? Mary has written things from her POV, which is understandable since they were in the same group and surely had differences of opinion which Mary could have viewed as "difficult" because they were in opposition to her view. But has any of the producers described her this way? Any negative talk from Frank Wilson, Smokey, Stevie? Jimmy mentions Jean and difficult in article MaryB posted, but it's worded in a way that it doesn't read to me that he's accusing her of being difficult with him, but difficulties between her and Motown, which certainly could have been the case. [[Although I stand by my initial response that those problems were not the reason the album tanked.) Did the group's reputation suffer with tv productions and club work because of Jean's "difficulties"? And it's been said that Jean questioned Motown about finances, which led to some bad blood. Was this Jean being difficult? Or was Jean right in wanting to get the money right, and Motown being difficult because it never wanted to pay artists what was due to them?

All we seem to have is a lot of speculation. I would venture to say that, apart from Barbara, Jean is the one Supreme whose first person viewpoint we have very little of. That being said, I'll add my own speculation out of the speculations bounded about regarding Jean all the time.

Jean valued her craft and she wanted her skill to be respected by everyone. Any time she felt she was being undervalued, she had an issue. I don't blame her. I suspect that Jean wanted to take the Supremes in a particular direction but she had no power because Mary was queen, and rightly so. Unfortunately, Mary was not the most risky personality, and I think sometimes Mary may have had an attitude of "who does this chick think she is coming into my group trying to run things", which may have also hindered the group's evolution.

Jean needed to find the right fit for her. MaryB's assertion that Jean didn't need to be in the music business belies the fact that other artists were able to craft out careers with some degree of artistic freedom. Why would Jean have been any different? Perhaps a group, especially one as well known as the Supremes, wasn't the best idea for Jean. Maybe Motown, certainly known as a label that pissed on artistic freedom 99 percent of the time, was the wrong label. Who knows? And until Jean opens her mouth about it, it is so hard to know what to think.

One thing's for sure from my standpoint: Jean Terrell in the music business was a fantastic decision. She is one of my absolute, hands down, favorite singers ever created, and I shudder to think of a music world where the only way one might experience the gift of Jean Terrell is if one happened upon the church she is singing in or caught her with her friends at Karaoke night.

[marybrewster]

Okay, this is a long one. Hope it doesn't bore you!

While I'm not discounting every viewpoint on the issue, I think it's worth mentioning that when we discuss Jean it's always what the fans said [[and I'm always left wondering how the fans know all of this, was Jean and company really in the habit of letting fans in on what was going on in the group?) or what some "insider" has offered up as an explanation, but never what Jean has said about it. Granted, part of this is Jean's fault because she apparently doesn't talk Supremes publicly, and when you don't talk, others will gladly speak for you.

I refuse to believe that Jean was stupid or clueless about the entertainment industry. I also refuse to believe that she joined the Supremes and did not expect to sing their hit songs. Sorry, not buying it. I'm not suggesting that she loved doing that, maybe she wasn't fond of the Supremes' hits, but again, she'd have to be stupid or clueless not to recognize that once she joined the Supremes, the group wouldn't suddenly stop singing the hits made famous by previous incarnations. Besides hearsay, I don't believe this was as big a deal as it is made out to be.

When it comes to Jean being difficult, who has really accused her of that? Mary has written things from her POV, which is understandable since they were in the same group and surely had differences of opinion which Mary could have viewed as "difficult" because they were in opposition to her view. But has any of the producers described her this way? Any negative talk from Frank Wilson, Smokey, Stevie? Jimmy mentions Jean and difficult in article MaryB posted, but it's worded in a way that it doesn't read to me that he's accusing her of being difficult with him, but difficulties between her and Motown, which certainly could have been the case. [[Although I stand by my initial response that those problems were not the reason the album tanked.) Did the group's reputation suffer with tv productions and club work because of Jean's "difficulties"? And it's been said that Jean questioned Motown about finances, which led to some bad blood. Was this Jean being difficult? Or was Jean right in wanting to get the money right, and Motown being difficult because it never wanted to pay artists what was due to them?

All we seem to have is a lot of speculation. I would venture to say that, apart from Barbara, Jean is the one Supreme whose first person viewpoint we have very little of. That being said, I'll add my own speculation out of the speculations bounded about regarding Jean all the time.

Jean valued her craft and she wanted her skill to be respected by everyone. Any time she felt she was being undervalued, she had an issue. I don't blame her. I suspect that Jean wanted to take the Supremes in a particular direction but she had no power because Mary was queen, and rightly so. Unfortunately, Mary was not the most risky personality, and I think sometimes Mary may have had an attitude of "who does this chick think she is coming into my group trying to run things", which may have also hindered the group's evolution.

Jean needed to find the right fit for her. MaryB's assertion that Jean didn't need to be in the music business belies the fact that other artists were able to craft out careers with some degree of artistic freedom. Why would Jean have been any different? Perhaps a group, especially one as well known as the Supremes, wasn't the best idea for Jean. Maybe Motown, certainly known as a label that pissed on artistic freedom 99 percent of the time, was the wrong label. Who knows? And until Jean opens her mouth about it, it is so hard to know what to think.

One thing's for sure from my standpoint: Jean Terrell in the music business was a fantastic decision. She is one of my absolute, hands down, favorite singers ever created, and I shudder to think of a music world where the only way one might experience the gift of Jean Terrell is if one happened upon the church she is singing in or caught her with her friends at Karaoke night.

Ran, I enjoyed your thoughtful post and wanted to be clear, I love Jean Terrell too. UP THE LADDER is absolutely magical, and is in my Top 5 of all Supremes songs, in any incarnation. Maybe even Top 3. But I hope you can appreciate what I was suggesting; that Jean, at least by actions, didn't fit the mold of what it takes to be in the entertainment business.

You record a solo album? You promote it. How much money and time and resources were wasted by her stomping her foot down and saying NO?

You join The Supremes? You sing the F out of BABY LOVE. And don't grovel about it, only to come back to it. There's a couple FLOS clips of JSL singing Supremes hits, and Jean is just TOO animated, TOO cutesy, TOO over the top with her gestures and movements.

[RanRan79]

Ran, I enjoyed your thoughtful post and wanted to be clear, I love Jean Terrell too. UP THE LADDER is absolutely magical, and is in my Top 5 of all Supremes songs, in any incarnation. Maybe even Top 3. But I hope you can appreciate what I was suggesting; that Jean, at least by actions, didn't fit the mold of what it takes to be in the entertainment business.

You record a solo album? You promote it. How much money and time and resources were wasted by her stomping her foot down and saying NO?

You join The Supremes? You sing the F out of BABY LOVE. And don't grovel about it, only to come back to it. There's a couple FLOS clips of JSL singing Supremes hits, and Jean is just TOO animated, TOO cutesy, TOO over the top with her gestures and movements.

Oh no, I understood your point and certainly didn't take it as an anti-Jean jab. I just wanted to be clear: problems or no problems, we needed Jean Terrell.

Again, there's just too many people speaking on Jean vs Jean speaking on herself. Even when we talk about Florence, she's pretty heavily documented with her own thoughts and recollections about her life and career, so while we still speculate about things, we can often draw on her own words to form our opinions.

Jean's reason[[s) for not promoting her first solo album have come from everyone but Jean. First it was her religious beliefs wouldn't allow for it and then someone said she had a baby at home and wanted to focus on that. I opined once that maybe something happened behind the scenes, like a "Me Too" situation. Again, I don't know that's a fact or even remotely close to what was going on. I just offered that up as one more thing we could put on a list of what went wrong with Jean's solo go.

I find it hard to believe that Jean, who was a Jehovah's Witness at the time, was being asked to do anything to promote her solo album that went against her faith. Don't forget, the Jacksons and Prince too were active JW's and they certainly had wilder careers than anything A&M could have even hinted at for Jean. Maybe she did change her mind and decide to focus on her child. Could it be the baby was ill or had some kind of special need? Babies are quick to throw a wrench into a plan with all the unplanned happenings that they bring. And if this is the case, I certainly can't fault her for deciding to put her child over her career. But it's hard for me to fathom that she was so wishy washy that one day she decides to focus on music, sign a contract, record an album, do some shows and television and then suddenly decide, nah, she's had enough of this. I just don't buy it. There's a story there. Time will tell if Jean will ever really tell it.

[SatansBlues]

This all goes back to the original question of why did Berry Gordy want to replace Jean with Syretta after Diana's final performance. Why did he change his mind? It was obvious that Jean could sing but what happened?

[jim aka jtigre99]

None of us really knows the inside story regarding this, we can only speculate with the information we have been given. The end results of things may only reinforce what we have heard. Mary did write that he wanted to replace Jean with Syreeta because she noticed that he had a harder time with Jean following what he wanted than he did with Diana. Remember he almost washed his hands when Diana didn't want to sing You're Nobody? So, who knows? I think if Jean had wanted a bigger career she could have had one. She certainly had the talent. It seems she clashed with Gordy and Mary and A&M, as well as sometimes with Lynda & Scherrie. It is something to wonder about, though.

[sup_fan]

Ran - yeah a lot of this is rehashed statements and comments from the more "senior" fans [[a nicer way of saying older lol). People like George and Andy and Harry and Bayou and others have worked with, interviewed, interacted with jean in the past and in more recent years. they've also worked with staff that was around during the 60s and 70s. people like Mickey, Gil, Cholly, etc. These people have also worked with lynda, scherrie, mary and the rest of the women. these people were working on, in and with the fan clubs back then, hung out with the girls some times, backstage interactions, etc. and then also more recent things like the EEs, interviews, books, etc.

now of course all of this is speculation on our part. these people are sharing their thoughts and memories but none of them are really wanting to trash any of the women or the history. and none of them have 100% of the story. all of this is us trying to take comments made here in the forum, on FB, in conversations, in books, etc and piece together a narative

[sup_fan]

sorry if my post painted too naive of a picture of Jean entering the sups. i'm sure the idea of fame and riches was enticing. that she would be one of THE SUPREMES had to be exciting. she [[and i think nearly all of the 70s members) have said friends and family also encouraged them because this would make them one of THE SUPREMES!

i'm sure jean also anticipated singing the 60s music. she was already doing a tune or two in her Heavyweights act.

from what i understand, jean was highly independent. she wanted to sing what she wanted to sing and how she wanted to sing it. motown was a much much more controlling environment.

i think the simplest way to describe it is "the bloom faded off the rose." at first it was thrilling and exciting. Bayou commented on a pic someone shared on FB of the girls backstage at the Copa in spring 70. they were greeting stars like Glen Campbell and Flip. and the smiles on the girls' faces couldn't be broader or more sparkling. Bayou mentioned that this was a really happy time with the group - they were doing great on the charts, RO was released and doing well, strong fan and critic response to the shows.

[gman]

Webb definitely knew who the Supremes were....My Christmas Tree has been said in print as being the first ever recorded Webb composition

Jean was a great Supreme...I do not like Syreeta's sound very much...I may have ceased being a fan...when it's said that Jean was salaried, I assume it means she wasn't getting a percentage of the live date earnings...but she must have received royalties from record sales...as the sales of LPS and singles dropped off, so did her income. Her brother probably guided her while making the decision to join the group....she must have been aware of the expectations....world touring with the Supremes is a different kettle of fish than playing lounges with Ernie and the Heavyweights....and perhaps...big word here...perhaps....she was willing to do all the hard work for 12-18 months to get the group established with a new lead singer...maybe she figured once that was done, the endless touring would be cut back so that she would be able to spend more time at home between engagements and recording...not everyone is a work horse...or a endless road warrior.

Maybe [[another big word) she just needed a lot more down time and longer breaks than being a professional touring performer allows....Seems when she was tired it triggered her irritability in both the Supremes and the FLO's

[marybrewster]

This all goes back to the original question of why did Berry Gordy want to replace Jean with Syretta after Diana's final performance. Why did he change his mind? It was obvious that Jean could sing but what happened?

So here's one angle that was never explored:

Doesn't the story go that the following morning of the last concert, that Berry called Mary and said he wanted Syreeta in the group? It's HIGHLY unlikely, but:

What if Jean called Berry first and said she wanted out? Maybe standing on stage with Diana, Mary, and Cindy that final night was a wakeup call and the "harsh" reality of what being a Supreme meant suddenly set in? Did she get cold feet? Again, it's unlikely. But I've always felt SOMETHING happened that night between the final bow and the legendary phone call.

[Boogiedown]

So here's one angle that was never explored:

Doesn't the story go that the following morning of the last concert, that Berry called Mary and said he wanted Syreeta in the group? It's HIGHLY unlikely, but:

What if Jean called Berry first and said she wanted out? Maybe standing on stage with Diana, Mary, and Cindy that final night was a wakeup call and the "harsh" reality of what being a Supreme meant suddenly set in? Did she get cold feet? Again, it's unlikely. But I've always felt SOMETHING happened that night between the final bow and the legendary phone call.

I like your thinking. Could be, although perhaps a bit too soon for the glow to wear that thin.... but certainly right at that moment it might have hit her, "what have i gotten myself into" ...

I'm remembering --- I think--- that Stevie and Syreeta attended that last show. Maybe Berry upon looking at Syreeta that night in that setting thought she visually would be a better fit than what he was seeing onstage with Jean??

....Maybe Stevie was pushing for it and that's why they were there [the rascals] ... maybe Stevie was a very important person to keep happy ... and now with his new ambitious wife and all....

wait a minute, have we done this one already .....hee haw!!

[reese]

So here's one angle that was never explored:

Doesn't the story go that the following morning of the last concert, that Berry called Mary and said he wanted Syreeta in the group? It's HIGHLY unlikely, but:

What if Jean called Berry first and said she wanted out? Maybe standing on stage with Diana, Mary, and Cindy that final night was a wakeup call and the "harsh" reality of what being a Supreme meant suddenly set in? Did she get cold feet? Again, it's unlikely. But I've always felt SOMETHING happened that night between the final bow and the legendary phone call.

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, Cindy did say that was some huge argument right after the Farewell show but she couldn't remember what it was about. She went on to say that there was a big blowout over Jean when they got back to LA but she and Mary fought for her.

[RanRan79]

from what i understand, jean was highly independent. she wanted to sing what she wanted to sing and how she wanted to sing it. motown was a much much more controlling environment.

Again, though, I wonder how much of that was really Motown pulling Jean back vs Mary pulling Jean back? Those first two years, I think we're all in agreement that Motown still regarded the Supremes as a priority. Not the priority they had been with Diana of course, but a priority just the same. I think they were still on the A list, just not at the very top of the A list. Lol

But just how involved was Motown in the continued direction of the group? Yes, the label greenlit the singles for release and the albums for release. And according to Mary, the label controlled the titles and the cover art. But with Gordy's attention pretty much laser focused on Diana, and to a lesser extent the J5, who exactly would have been saying "Okay girls, you'll sing this, you'll sing that and there better not be any backtalk!"? Who at Motown would have been invested in the songs in the act and dictated this, especially when things sort of fall apart?

That's why I'm looking at Mary. Seems like a scenario could be where Jean approaches Mary and Cindy, and then Lynda, with ideas and Mary shuts it down because it's too off brand for the Supremes, in Mary's mind. One has to wonder how excited Mary was for Stevie coming on to produce if she hadn't known him forever, he was red hot, and Lynda probably suggested it rather than Jean.

[RanRan79]

maybe she figured once that was done, the endless touring would be cut back so that she would be able to spend more time at home between engagements and recording...not everyone is a work horse...or a endless road warrior.

Maybe [[another big word) she just needed a lot more down time and longer breaks than being a professional touring performer allows....Seems when she was tired it triggered her irritability in both the Supremes and the FLO's

Piggybacking here:

Not everyone is a good fit for a group. I think groups had a harder road when it comes to trying to stay on top than single artists do. Plus, as I said before, a group like the Supremes is already a well established household name. Jean wasn't joining a "chasing fame" group, like Barbara did, or coming in to revive a floundering group, like Scherrie did. Jean's job was to help the Supremes stay at the top and the group had a super schedule of touring, recording, tv appearances, photo shoots, everything. While there's no doubt that Jean probably was somewhat overwhelmed with the entire experience at first [[who wouldn't be?) it is possible that the constant grind eventually wore thin, especially if [[a) she and Mary were bumping heads often, [[b) Motown was playing with the money. The stress of the job can always be better swallowed if the money is right, and when it aint...an unhappy employee can be a real buzzkill. Lol

Perhaps if Jean were a solo artist, she would have had a better chance at controlling her own schedule.

Another point to make is that the music industry is not made up of the same kinds of people or entities. Not every record label worked the same. So like with any industry, we sometimes find ourselves at a company that isn't cutting it. We're unappreciated, we're abused, underpaid, unfulfilled. We buy what the company is selling when we agree to be hired, only to find out the sales pitch and the actual job are vastly different things. So after a point, the employee moves on, hopefully landing somewhere that the sales pitch is reality.

My suspicion is that Jean needed a company that fit her and what she wanted going forward. Clearly she wanted to be in the industry because every few years she was popping up to do something. I think if Jean was coming along today, with the indie scene being what it is, she would have had an easier time. I think Jean was a bit before her time.

[RanRan79]

So here's one angle that was never explored:

Doesn't the story go that the following morning of the last concert, that Berry called Mary and said he wanted Syreeta in the group? It's HIGHLY unlikely, but:

What if Jean called Berry first and said she wanted out? Maybe standing on stage with Diana, Mary, and Cindy that final night was a wakeup call and the "harsh" reality of what being a Supreme meant suddenly set in? Did she get cold feet? Again, it's unlikely. But I've always felt SOMETHING happened that night between the final bow and the legendary phone call.

I don't think so. I'm guessing that even Gordy would have made mention of the reason he wanted to make the change was because the girl doesn't want the job anymore. And for all of Mary's sometimes nonsensical decisions, I can't see her being silly enough to think bringing in a woman who doesn't want the job would be the best decision for the group.

I know I've said it before, but why not say it again: I don't believe Gordy wanted to replace Jean with Syreeta. I believe he made the call to Mary knowing full well Mary wouldn't go along with it and it gave him his "out" with Mary and "washing his hands".

Time- 1972
Location- Gordy's House

Mary: Berry things are starting to fall apart a bit. The album with Smokey hasn't exploded like we hoped. The singles aren't burning a hole in the charts. Jean is unhappy. Cindy is gone. Lynda is already on my nerves. We need you. Why aren't you in our corner?

Berry: Come and get this memory, Mary. You recall a phone conversation we had the morning after Diana's last performance with you girls? I told you I didn't like Jean, I changed my mind, I wanted Syreeta in. You told me people in hell want ice water. So I washed my hands since you know more about how to run the Supremes than I do.

And scene.

Jean had basically been a Supreme behind the scenes for, what, four to six months? Gordy had surely seen what Jean looked like standing and moving with Mary and Cindy. He knew what she sounded like fronting the group in the studio. I can't imagine there was anything about Jean revealed that night that would have caused him to want to ditch her after introducing her as Diana's replacement. Was anyone expected to believe that Gordy and Jean talked shop after the show? Because that would mean Gordy didn't spend the entire night running up behind Diana, and I just don't see that.

And let's not forget, if Gordy really wanted Jean gone, she would have been gone. When was he ever in the habit of taking his cues from Mary Wilson?

[sup_fan]

Webb definitely knew who the Supremes were....My Christmas Tree has been said in print as being the first ever recorded Webb composition

Jean was a great Supreme...I do not like Syreeta's sound very much...I may have ceased being a fan...when it's said that Jean was salaried, I assume it means she wasn't getting a percentage of the live date earnings...but she must have received royalties from record sales...as the sales of LPS and singles dropped off, so did her income.

i've never read jean's contract. again, piecing together what others have shared, jean was salaried while M and C received royalties. my understanding of that is it was a probationary period. and i thought others have referenced 18 months. and that was her income, the flat salary. no royalties, no special appearance fees, no % of concert fees, etc.

now at the end of 18 months, what happened? did she only earn royalties on the records released after the probationary period ended? if a record that was released prior continued to sell, would she get royalties on that? don't know. And when did the 18 months start? when she signed with motown in roughly june 69? when she was assigned to the supremes? why would she have a probationary period if she wasn't really in a group? she would just have a recording contract and that's it.

[RanRan79]

i've never read jean's contract. again, piecing together what others have shared, jean was salaried while M and C received royalties. my understanding of that is it was a probationary period. and i thought others have referenced 18 months. and that was her income, the flat salary. no royalties, no special appearance fees, no % of concert fees, etc.

now at the end of 18 months, what happened? did she only earn royalties on the records released after the probationary period ended? if a record that was released prior continued to sell, would she get royalties on that? don't know. And when did the 18 months start? when she signed with motown in roughly june 69? when she was assigned to the supremes? why would she have a probationary period if she wasn't really in a group? she would just have a recording contract and that's it.

I don't think a company could salary royalties. I think Gman is right, that the salary would be off all the other income.

[sup_fan]

Again, though, I wonder how much of that was really Motown pulling Jean back vs Mary pulling Jean back? Those first two years, I think we're all in agreement that Motown still regarded the Supremes as a priority. Not the priority they had been with Diana of course, but a priority just the same. I think they were still on the A list, just not at the very top of the A list. Lol

But just how involved was Motown in the continued direction of the group? Yes, the label greenlit the singles for release and the albums for release. And according to Mary, the label controlled the titles and the cover art. But with Gordy's attention pretty much laser focused on Diana, and to a lesser extent the J5, who exactly would have been saying "Okay girls, you'll sing this, you'll sing that and there better not be any backtalk!"? Who at Motown would have been invested in the songs in the act and dictated this, especially when things sort of fall apart?

That's why I'm looking at Mary. Seems like a scenario could be where Jean approaches Mary and Cindy, and then Lynda, with ideas and Mary shuts it down because it's too off brand for the Supremes, in Mary's mind. One has to wonder how excited Mary was for Stevie coming on to produce if she hadn't known him forever, he was red hot, and Lynda probably suggested it rather than Jean.

i've wondered and asked the same things Ran. I too think in the first 18 - 24 months, the group was pretty high up the totem pole still at Motown. they got an album with a tear-away poster, several albums with gatefold sleeves and intricate die-cuts, a special DJ promo version of Touch with the interview. Yes of course motown would recoup these costs from the artist's sales. but they had to assume these albums would generate the revenue to cover this. otherwise motown would eat the costs if the act was dropped. it's not like they pulled a cheapy package like DRATS GH3 or marvelettes In Full Bloom where the front and back art are the same, just color vs b&w

as for group strategy and music, i too have wondered. some people have said "no motown still called all the shots." i find it amazing that mary and the group didn't have SOME say in their live act. they weren't 19 and 20 year old girls anymore. people have said "no motown demanded they maintain the ultra glitzy vegas/cabaret image and style" again, i struggle with that as the look of the group was really an outshoot of Diana and Mary and Flo's personal style.

I could see motown getting cold feet about the afro cover for NW and it being too militant. but if the girls were wanting a more up to date act with less MOR and more of their album tracks, i find it odd that motown would just refuse.

[sup_fan]

I don't think so. I'm guessing that even Gordy would have made mention of the reason he wanted to make the change was because the girl doesn't want the job anymore. And for all of Mary's sometimes nonsensical decisions, I can't see her being silly enough to think bringing in a woman who doesn't want the job would be the best decision for the group.

I know I've said it before, but why not say it again: I don't believe Gordy wanted to replace Jean with Syreeta. I believe he made the call to Mary knowing full well Mary wouldn't go along with it and it gave him his "out" with Mary and "washing his hands".

Time- 1972
Location- Gordy's House

Mary: Berry things are starting to fall apart a bit. The album with Smokey hasn't exploded like we hoped. The singles aren't burning a hole in the charts. Jean is unhappy. Cindy is gone. Lynda is already on my nerves. We need you. Why aren't you in our corner?

Berry: Come and get this memory, Mary. You recall a phone conversation we had the morning after Diana's last performance with you girls? I told you I didn't like Jean, I changed my mind, I wanted Syreeta in. You told me people in hell want ice water. So I washed my hands since you know more about how to run the Supremes than I do.

And scene.

Jean had basically been a Supreme behind the scenes for, what, four to six months? Gordy had surely seen what Jean looked like standing and moving with Mary and Cindy. He knew what she sounded like fronting the group in the studio. I can't imagine there was anything about Jean revealed that night that would have caused him to want to ditch her after introducing her as Diana's replacement. Was anyone expected to believe that Gordy and Jean talked shop after the show? Because that would mean Gordy didn't spend the entire night running up behind Diana, and I just don't see that.

And let's not forget, if Gordy really wanted Jean gone, she would have been gone. When was he ever in the habit of taking his cues from Mary Wilson?

there are lots of rumors on this topic too

some people said Berry made a pass at jean and she said no way

some people said berry, the producers and Gil [[for the live act) wanted to have more control over how she sang and she said no way

some people said early on she started to go against the grain of the image of the group and of motown. that she was far more outspoken

as for the infamous story in mary's book, i'm not 100% sure it played out EXACTLY as she wrote it. or if it did play out that way, i'm not 100% sure it would a total shock to mary that it happened. she even mentioned that she had noticed that berry was having a harder time getting jean to follow his direction to the T. my guess is that he did call her in Vegas but that this discussion had in some way or form come up prior. Cindy mentions meeting with Berry in LA AFTER the shows were done while Mary says after that phone call, there was no further conversation