Still Within the Sound of My Voice/The Supremes JW

[marybrewster]

"Still Within the Sound of My Voice" is a fabulous song written by Jimmy Webb, recorded by Glen Campbell in 1987, and later covered by Linda Ronstadt.

I'm not sure when it was written, but if you take a listen to Linda's version, you can *almost* hear Jean Terrell. It would have been perfect for the inclusion of the Jimmy Webb set released in '72.

[gman]

Other than I GUESS I'LL MISS THE MAN and 5.30 Plane, I enjoy and play nothing on that LP....it was a missed chance to hear the group cover some great familiar songs...I've mentioned this several times before...I wonder what Clarence Paul who's RnB work and Norman Whitfield whos psych soul I loved would have done with Jean Terrell???
here's my oddball thought...every time I hear Steppenwolf's rock classic Magic Carpet Ride I think it would have been great for Jean to cover...she could have sounded so trippy and aloof on it...or a 3 way lead on Nights in White Satin??? I would have loved to hear her sing the J5 arrangement of Never Can Say Goodbye too.

[sup_fan]

yes the JW project was a huge missed opportunity. aside from the unnecessary added voices, the song selection was quite questionable. too many random covers, no instantly recognizable JW songs.

i don't know that Whitfield would have been my choice though either for a producer. I think Pam Sawyer would have been ideal. while not necessarily the name recognition of Whitfield, she'd worked alongside Frank Wilson for years and was hugely talented.

Bayou i think mentioned that Motown was not the one that originated the idea of bringing in Jimmy Webb. that it was the Sups manager. i guess looking to try something radically new and different. while the singer-songwriter trend was certainly very hot at the time, so was the rise of the FEMALE singer-songwriter. Joni Mitchell, Carole King. this was also the rise of women's lib. so although Pam wasn't necessarily known outside of Motown, if she [[and maybe Gloria Jones) worked with the Sups, they could have hyped up the 'all women' angle. plus the material Pam and Gloria would have done certainly would have been excellent. they both really knew Jean's voice by this time

[Spreadinglove21]

Alas it appears the song wasn't written until the 80s. Jimmy Webb also recorded the song and used it as title for one of his own albums.

[daviddesper]

Linda Ronstadt's version of that song is incredible. I cannot imagine anyone else touching it. As for the Jimmy Webb album, it was such a radical departure for the girls that I never quite knew what to make of it. A few good songs for sure but a strong overall album.......not quite.

[jim aka jtigre99]

The Jimmy Webb album was an experiment and it was the wrong sound at the wrong time. They were trying something new and it just wasn't something expected nor did the experiment really pan out. There are some decent songs on the LP but even including IGIMTM which only hit #85 showed they were not in the best place creatively. They were trying what they could to evolve but it just didn't work. Plus some of Jean's vocals were strained because they were at the top of her range or beyond. Perhaps, one or two songs added to other songs produced by others may have worked better. I always liked I Keep It Hid and Mary's ballad vocals there as well as a few others.

[jobucats]

The Jimmy Webb album is my favorite from the post 1970s group. The only negative is the oversaturated background vocals which made the album, minus some of the songs with lead vocals by Mary, seem be a solo vehicle for Jean. I must say that I am a fan of anything that Jimmy Webb writes/produces. I never realized until recently that "All I Want" was a Joni Mitchell song.

[RanRan79]

My question is: what was it about Jimmy Webb at that point that made anyone think he was the one to take the group back to popularity?

My biggest critique of the album is that it lacks any contemporary soul. Jean has a few chances to let her soul shine, but overall, IMO, the material doesn't fit her or the group. They were in terrible need of something to make them relevant again and I really don't hear any song on the album doing that.

Discography wise, I think this is the biggest bad decision in the group's history, period. [[Second worst decision would probably be two more Tops duet albums than were needed.) And I'm not talking just this lineup or the Jean years, I'm talking about from 1961 thru 1977. Absolutely horrible decision because it ultimately made a bad situation worse. The Floy Joy project was pretty well received. Why even look to anyone else other than Smokey to produce the follow up?

Perhaps the follow up album might have had some of the cuts that ended up on Smokey's debut album. Would have been fantastic to hear Jean doing "Never Can Say Goodbye" with Smokey's arrangement and tackling "Silent Partner In a Three Way Love Affair". How about Mary finally getting a crack at "Will You Love Me Tomorrow"?

Jimmy Webb was not going to do what needed to be done.

[marybrewster]

My question is: what was it about Jimmy Webb at that point that made anyone think he was the one to take the group back to popularity?

My biggest critique of the album is that it lacks any contemporary soul. Jean has a few chances to let her soul shine, but overall, IMO, the material doesn't fit her or the group. They were in terrible need of something to make them relevant again and I really don't hear any song on the album doing that.

Discography wise, I think this is the biggest bad decision in the group's history, period. [[Second worst decision would probably be two more Tops duet albums than were needed.) And I'm not talking just this lineup or the Jean years, I'm talking about from 1961 thru 1977. Absolutely horrible decision because it ultimately made a bad situation worse. The Floy Joy project was pretty well received. Why even look to anyone else other than Smokey to produce the follow up?

Perhaps the follow up album might have had some of the cuts that ended up on Smokey's debut album. Would have been fantastic to hear Jean doing "Never Can Say Goodbye" with Smokey's arrangement and tackling "Silent Partner In a Three Way Love Affair". How about Mary finally getting a crack at "Will You Love Me Tomorrow"?

Jimmy Webb was not going to do what needed to be done.

Wasn't it around this time that the Supremes had a new manager? His name escapes me, but I've seen pictures of him and JML [[wearing the Tropical Lilac gowns). White guy, long-ish hair, I dare say hippie-esque. Bernard something? I wonder if he had his hand in connecting the group with JW?

[Spreadinglove21]

I respect the ambition of the Webb album. If there ever was a specialty album in the 70s Supremes catalog it's this one.

[jobeterob]

A good reason for this album was the connection to a singer songwriter which was where things were at

Groups were struggling and the Supremes were seen as dated and old - the Motown hitmakers were Diana Marvin Stevie and Smokey

So if they wanted to become current and stay connected to young people, why the hell do they lead off with a single like I Guess I’ll Miss the Man? Keep singing show tunes, wear old dresses and issue a Broadway tune for a single - send the message that we are a group of old women completely out of touch with today

There were two very appealing current sounding songs on that album - 530 Plane and All I Want - and they ignored them; they should have been the singles

Hopefully somebody a few years later was singing Silly Wasn’t I?

[sansradio]

Wasn't it around this time that the Supremes had a new manager? His name escapes me, but I've seen pictures of him and JML [[wearing the Tropical Lilac gowns). White guy, long-ish hair, I dare say hippie-esque. Bernard something? I wonder if he had his hand in connecting the group with JW?

That would be Wayne Weisbart.

[sup_fan]

My question is: what was it about Jimmy Webb at that point that made anyone think he was the one to take the group back to popularity?

My biggest critique of the album is that it lacks any contemporary soul. Jean has a few chances to let her soul shine, but overall, IMO, the material doesn't fit her or the group. They were in terrible need of something to make them relevant again and I really don't hear any song on the album doing that.

Discography wise, I think this is the biggest bad decision in the group's history, period. [[Second worst decision would probably be two more Tops duet albums than were needed.) And I'm not talking just this lineup or the Jean years, I'm talking about from 1961 thru 1977. Absolutely horrible decision because it ultimately made a bad situation worse. The Floy Joy project was pretty well received. Why even look to anyone else other than Smokey to produce the follow up?

Perhaps the follow up album might have had some of the cuts that ended up on Smokey's debut album. Would have been fantastic to hear Jean doing "Never Can Say Goodbye" with Smokey's arrangement and tackling "Silent Partner In a Three Way Love Affair". How about Mary finally getting a crack at "Will You Love Me Tomorrow"?

Jimmy Webb was not going to do what needed to be done.

yeah i think the issue of smokey not doing another album was regarding his debut and probably just wanting some time to "retire" for a bit. he had wanted to leave the Miracles years before i believe but Tears of a Clown popped up out of nowhere and suddenly they were touring more. at the same time, motown was finishing it's move to LA and he was a VP. i'd imagine the effort and work that entailed were significant.

but i completely agree with the suggestion. I really like the FJ album, although i know others aren't as fond of it. and the version of the title track and AS on the mary wilson anthology are fascinating - the added instrumentation makes a totally different sound. bigger, bolder, more soulful and less cotton candy. wonder what the rest of the lp would sound like.

previously i thought that the decision to go with JW was something motown overall was more involved in and was attempting to find SOMETHING to revitalize the group. their albums had been doing poorly, the singles only so-so. but in chatting on FB with Bayou, he said that, no, motown had not been involved with this and i guess they just sort of went along with it. clearly they were not excited about the results that were turned in. when i asked him though what else the girls had been working on, aside from IGIMTM, he didn't believe they were doing much recording.

so that goes back to a point i brought up long ago - was the departure of Cindy much more meaningful that we've typically given it credit for? motown certainly knew how difficult jean could be, certainly knew they had 0 interest in developing mary as an artist. so was Cindy viewed as the glue keeping the group together? sort of the peacemaker between J and M? and without her presence, not to mention the huge disruption for the group's image to have ANOTHER personnel change, they were going to fall apart?

[RanRan79]

A good reason for this album was the connection to a singer songwriter which was where things were at

Groups were struggling and the Supremes were seen as dated and old - the Motown hitmakers were Diana Marvin Stevie and Smokey

So if they wanted to become current and stay connected to young people, why the hell do they lead off with a single like I Guess I’ll Miss the Man? Keep singing show tunes, wear old dresses and issue a Broadway tune for a single - send the message that we are a group of old women completely out of touch with today

There were two very appealing current sounding songs on that album - 530 Plane and All I Want - and they ignored them; they should have been the singles

Hopefully somebody a few years later was singing Silly Wasn’t I?

But you can't just have any singer/songwriter for singer/songwriter's sake, and that's my problem. Why Jimmy Webb? Admittedly I don't know much about him or his career. In a cursory search for what he was doing around this time, it appears he wasn't having blockbuster success with anyone, especially artists with a R&B following. Surely there had to have been others who made more sense if the intention was to pair the ladies with a singer/songwriter. And why go out of the label when Motown still had singer/songwriters on the roster: Smokey, Stevie, Willie Hutch, Marvin Gaye. Was Nick and Val still with Motown at this point?

Off topic, "Silly Wasn't I" is a song I soooooo wish Mary had taken a stab at back then.

[RanRan79]

so that goes back to a point i brought up long ago - was the departure of Cindy much more meaningful that we've typically given it credit for? motown certainly knew how difficult jean could be, certainly knew they had 0 interest in developing mary as an artist. so was Cindy viewed as the glue keeping the group together? sort of the peacemaker between J and M? and without her presence, not to mention the huge disruption for the group's image to have ANOTHER personnel change, they were going to fall apart?

Honestly, I don't think so. Not to downplay Cindy's contribution or suggest that it had no effect whatsoever on the group. I just think this was all a case of Motown losing focus. While I don't doubt that Motown wasn't involved in the idea to bring Jimmy on for the Supremes, as if they were brainstorming what to do with the group and brought the idea to them, Motown still had the final say, the option to be like "aww hell naw" when the idea was brought to the label. Jimmy would have had to have a contract with Motown to work for the group, recording music that he would, of course, be expecting to be paid for. So Motown may not have dreamed this up, but as the company that put out the Supremes' product, the buck stops with them. And I think that if the company was laser focused on music like they were in the 60s and while in Detroit, plans for the Supremes would have been better handled.

The behind the scenes shenanigans of Mary and Jean would obviously cause issues, but they were all still professional, and they wouldn't be the first or last group to have some inner issues and still produce success, so I don't think Cindy playing peacemaker would have had any bearing on the way Motown was dealing with the group. Had Cindy stayed, I suspect the JW album would have happened anyway, as long as Wayne what's his face was the manager, if indeed it was his suggestion.

It really was a bungled opportunity to put the group back on the map.

[Circa 1824]

I remember driving and hearing Glen Campbell’s version for the first time. I literally pulled the car over to hear it better. It was one of those outstanding musical moments. Of course the next day I bought it.

[sup_fan]

Honestly, I don't think so. Not to downplay Cindy's contribution or suggest that it had no effect whatsoever on the group. I just think this was all a case of Motown losing focus. While I don't doubt that Motown wasn't involved in the idea to bring Jimmy on for the Supremes, as if they were brainstorming what to do with the group and brought the idea to them, Motown still had the final say, the option to be like "aww hell naw" when the idea was brought to the label. Jimmy would have had to have a contract with Motown to work for the group, recording music that he would, of course, be expecting to be paid for. So Motown may not have dreamed this up, but as the company that put out the Supremes' product, the buck stops with them. And I think that if the company was laser focused on music like they were in the 60s and while in Detroit, plans for the Supremes would have been better handled.

The behind the scenes shenanigans of Mary and Jean would obviously cause issues, but they were all still professional, and they wouldn't be the first or last group to have some inner issues and still produce success, so I don't think Cindy playing peacemaker would have had any bearing on the way Motown was dealing with the group. Had Cindy stayed, I suspect the JW album would have happened anyway, as long as Wayne what's his face was the manager, if indeed it was his suggestion.

It really was a bungled opportunity to put the group back on the map.

yeah i don't think Cindy's exit was THE event that ruined the group. like an airplane crash, it's a series of unfortunate events. lots of career bungling with the duet nonsense and things. the lineup change again.

on FB someone recently posted newspaper reviews of the girls' show at the Carter Baron theater in DC with the Tops. i believe this was mid August 1971. the reviews were not very strong. the biggest complaint revolved around a rather lackluster concept for the show. in a nutshell it seemed to align with what most of us have said here time and again. that the show needed to modernize. they needed more of their own material, less MOR junk. it was too cabaret and apparently the CB facility is a huge auditorium. so there isn't the intimacy of a nightclub setting.

and this was LONG before they made the wildly unfortunate decision to revert to the old DRATS songbook. but it was clear that things were starting to sputter. Touch [[both album and single) were new and bombed. Return of Mag 7 and Gotta Have Love did nothing. the review also criticized both groups for NOT singing together even though they had 2 lps together! agree!! what a dumb idea!! although i do have a bootleg and eventually they apparently added River Deep and Reach out and touch someone's hand to the act as sort of encores.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I believe Wayne Weisbart was their manager and he was an outside producer, which didn't thrill Motown at all. Jimmy Webb was his idea. Plus, losing Cindy and gaining another new face probably didn't help Motown's or the mass public interest. Lynda certainly gave a contemporary vibe to the group while Cindy was recognizable and very much a part of the glamour image.
There was no interest in them at this time from Motown, who was focused on moving to California and on the movie industry. I know Mary enjoyed Smokey as their producer and wrote in Supreme Faith, wanted him to be their producer "forever" much like HDH. Apparently, Motown found Jean difficult and had no interest in developing Mary so they let them to their own devices and they floundered with no real direction. It wasn't that they had no image but they didn't have the material and they didn't have a direction to make that image more contemporary. There were a lot of factors at play here. I think Berry was hoping they would just fade away.
Like I said, Jimmy Webb was the wrong experiment at the wrong time.

[sup_fan]

i do have to lay much of the problems with the JW lp simply at the feet of JW. sure we can ask all kinds of questions - should they have gone with an outside producer, lineup changes, motown's disinterest, etc

but the fact of the matter is that JW was the producer and essentially didn't do his homework and the result was frankly poor-quality work that was far below his and the group's talents

1. he was essentially a guest producer coming in to work with a huge act. in doing so, you can't simply toss away every little aspect or style that the group is known for.
2. poor choice of songs, way too many random covers tunes
3. the fact that you're recording a group but essentially develop an entirely new group by bringing in the Blossoms. you were assigned to work with MJL and the supremes. figure out how to do things with what you're assigned
4. poor productions and arrangements. Listen to Stoned love and then listed to Silent Voices. on SL Frank weaves the instrumentation of the backing track in and out. on SV Jimmy just basically hits the "record" button and tells every instrument to play from beginning to end at full volume. there's no nuance, no builds. it's just sound. loud sound.
5. while you want to push a lead singer, you do need to acknowledge their vocal range. he just crafted songs that were too high and out of range for jean

basically JW didn't do his homework and the result was the drecktitude we got

[marybrewster]

That would be Wayne Weisbart.

Thank you sans!

[daviddesper]

Circa 1824: If you have never heard Linda Ronstadt nail that song, then find her version and you will forget all about Glen Campbell's.

[sansradio]

Thank you sans!

[marybrewster]

i do have to lay much of the problems with the JW lp simply at the feet of JW. sure we can ask all kinds of questions - should they have gone with an outside producer, lineup changes, motown's disinterest, etc

but the fact of the matter is that JW was the producer and essentially didn't do his homework and the result was frankly poor-quality work that was far below his and the group's talents

1. he was essentially a guest producer coming in to work with a huge act. in doing so, you can't simply toss away every little aspect or style that the group is known for.
2. poor choice of songs, way too many random covers tunes
3. the fact that you're recording a group but essentially develop an entirely new group by bringing in the Blossoms. you were assigned to work with MJL and the supremes. figure out how to do things with what you're assigned
4. poor productions and arrangements. Listen to Stoned love and then listed to Silent Voices. on SL Frank weaves the instrumentation of the backing track in and out. on SV Jimmy just basically hits the "record" button and tells every instrument to play from beginning to end at full volume. there's no nuance, no builds. it's just sound. loud sound.
5. while you want to push a lead singer, you do need to acknowledge their vocal range. he just crafted songs that were too high and out of range for jean

basically JW didn't do his homework and the result was the drecktitude we got

SILENT VOICES also has that odd vocal edit when Jean is singing "my love, oh my love"; it's like there were two takes put together, but not seamlessly. Almost like a record skip.

[sup_fan]

SILENT VOICES also has that odd vocal edit when Jean is singing "my love, oh my love"; it's like there were two takes put together, but not seamlessly. Almost like a record skip.

and the most odd thing of this song is it's called Silent Voices and it's this overwhelming deluge of sound. of course that's not unique to the JW and Sups version either

[gman]

IGIMTM was a great song....they performed it live on TV many times...and it wasn't a train wreck like many of the other live vocal performances...it needed to be pushed to AOC radio...then maybe catch on POP / RnB...I consider that song and 5.30 Plane Terrell masterpieces....other than IGIMTM I don't hear anything worthy of being a single....and although I liked it OK at the time, no one I've ever to this day played Bad Weather for likes it at all...they do like the Scherrie era stuff though...always got lots of WOW!'s when I play that stuff for folks that never heard it...
Maybe they should have done a singer songwriter LP using a "in house" producer and not isolated the LP to one composer....the early 70's were a hotbed of choices...

[sup_fan]

IGIMTM was a great song....they performed it live on TV many times...and it wasn't a train wreck like many of the other live vocal performances...it needed to be pushed to AOC radio...then maybe catch on POP / RnB...I consider that song and 5.30 Plane Terrell masterpieces....other than IGIMTM I don't hear anything worthy of being a single....and although I liked it OK at the time, no one I've ever to this day played Bad Weather for likes it at all...they do like the Scherrie era stuff though...always got lots of WOW!'s when I play that stuff for folks that never heard it...
Maybe they should have done a singer songwriter LP using a "in house" producer and not isolated the LP to one composer....the early 70's were a hotbed of choices...

IGIMTM is beautifully sung and produced but man. those lyrics are really downers. i think the content of the song was as problematic as anything else with it. also the girls did their tv performances of it months after it was released. so unfortunately that promotion was too little too late

530 is a perfect song. it was contemporary, great and relatable story line, well performed, and the choral backgrounds aren't too out of line here.

i think Cheap Lovin' is another great song on the album. man they're sizzling on this one. jean rips it apart, from top to bottom, left to right.

[gman]

Cheap Lovin' was a single in Italy only b/w Tossin' and Turnin I believe....why? I don't know.

[Circa 1824]

Circa 1824: If you have never heard Linda Ronstadt nail that song, then find her version and you will forget all about Glen Campbell's.

i still prefer Glen’s version. I never cared for Linda’s voice outside of You’re No Good and Desperato.

[daviddesper]

Oh my!!! Different strokes I guess! To my ears, Linda turned that into the ultimate torch song. Glen's version to me was just typical country fare and I don't recall much emotion in it. But maybe it is because I prefer almost any female singer over any male singer. I can think of very few examples where a male and a female [[or female group) have done the same song and I liked the male version better.

[marybrewster]

In a 1977 Supremes Fan Club Newsletter, there is an excerpt from a June 1977 article from Phonographic Record:

"Webb indicates that difficulties with Supremes lead singer Jean Terrell as being one of the reasons for the album's lack of success. Motown was apparently so confused by Webb's un-Motowm production that they added an additional, house produced track at the beginning of the album."

[RanRan79]

In a 1977 Supremes Fan Club Newsletter, there is an excerpt from a June 1977 article from Phonographic Record:

"Webb indicates that difficulties with Supremes lead singer Jean Terrell as being one of the reasons for the album's lack of success. Motown was apparently so confused by Webb's un-Motowm production that they added an additional, house produced track at the beginning of the album."

Jean was not the problem that album bombed. Very few people wanted to hear the Supremes in the way JW recorded them. Whatever was going on behind the scenes with Jean and Motown, or Jean and Mary, did not in any way keep the public from running out and grabbing this album. The whole thing really should have been shelved and when it was finally released 40 years later, we could enjoy having an unreleased album and try to enjoy it for what it is. But at the time of initial release, I am not at all surprised that the public passed it by.

And to think, the JW album got released but Promises Kept was shelved and the Stevie album not even completed. Ugh.

[jobucats]

I remember driving and hearing Glen Campbell’s version for the first time. I literally pulled the car over to hear it better. It was one of those outstanding musical moments. Of course the next day I bought it.

That's how I felt when I heard Glen's version of "I Keep It Hid."

[sup_fan]

Jean was not the problem that album bombed. Very few people wanted to hear the Supremes in the way JW recorded them. Whatever was going on behind the scenes with Jean and Motown, or Jean and Mary, did not in any way keep the public from running out and grabbing this album. The whole thing really should have been shelved and when it was finally released 40 years later, we could enjoy having an unreleased album and try to enjoy it for what it is. But at the time of initial release, I am not at all surprised that the public passed it by.

And to think, the JW album got released but Promises Kept was shelved and the Stevie album not even completed. Ugh.

i think the fan club statement isn't about her performance on the songs but on her overall relationship with motown. I'm piecing together from what other fans have said but sounds like Motown was NOT in favor of this project overall, from the beginning. so by the time it came to release it and motown heard the material, they weren't thrilled at all. jean really, really wanted this album to come out. she was already highly unsatisfied with motown and probably figured she would be leaving sooner or later. and this is basically a Jean solo album [[other than I Keep It Hid). so motown sort of agreed to release it but then did nothing for it. and jean was NOT having that. apparently she really was after motown to do something and so i guess they did even less.

again, i'm piecing together bits from discussions with fans from years ago, fan discussions on FB, etc. Now with albums like High Energy and diana 80, motown said "up you have more work to do to make this album release-able" so why didn't they do that here? this was also RIGHT on top of the release of Lady Sings the Blues which premiered in Oct 72. so everyone was probably so wrapped up in the movie, the premiere, the Academy Awards, etc. The soundtrack album was also released in oct.

[marybrewster]

i think the fan club statement isn't about her performance on the songs but on her overall relationship with motown. I'm piecing together from what other fans have said but sounds like Motown was NOT in favor of this project overall, from the beginning. so by the time it came to release it and motown heard the material, they weren't thrilled at all. jean really, really wanted this album to come out. she was already highly unsatisfied with motown and probably figured she would be leaving sooner or later. and this is basically a Jean solo album [[other than I Keep It Hid). so motown sort of agreed to release it but then did nothing for it. and jean was NOT having that. apparently she really was after motown to do something and so i guess they did even less.

again, i'm piecing together bits from discussions with fans from years ago, fan discussions on FB, etc. Now with albums like High Energy and diana 80, motown said "up you have more work to do to make this album release-able" so why didn't they do that here? this was also RIGHT on top of the release of Lady Sings the Blues which premiered in Oct 72. so everyone was probably so wrapped up in the movie, the premiere, the Academy Awards, etc. The soundtrack album was also released in oct.

I also wonder if the issue wasn't Jimmy himself. Jean wanted something "different", but did she realize that meant working with the personality of a new Producer? Everything she had done at Motown at that point had been with Frank Wilson, who knew what Jean's quirks were and what she could and couldn't do. YES, there was the TOUCH album also, Produced by Smokey, who I imagine, like Wilson, Jean had a good relationship with. I don't think it's any secret that Jean could be difficult, and I'm sure that recording sessions were not exactly sunshine and rainbows.

[sup_fan]

I also wonder if the issue wasn't Jimmy himself. Jean wanted something "different", but did she realize that meant working with the personality of a new Producer? Everything she had done at Motown at that point had been with Frank Wilson, who knew what Jean's quirks were and what she could and couldn't do. YES, there was the TOUCH album also, Produced by Smokey, who I imagine, like Wilson, Jean had a good relationship with. I don't think it's any secret that Jean could be difficult, and I'm sure that recording sessions were not exactly sunshine and rainbows.

one thing that's interesting is the girls [[or really i'd say Jean, since i think most of the backing vocals are As and session singers) did a lot of recording with Clay McMurray. He did Then We Can Try It Again, I Got Hurt on Right On and Is There A Place on NW. But lots of the unreleased tracks we've received were done by Clay.

Given the amount of work he did with them, seems like they would have eventually done an album with him.

He did also do some of the duets - You've Got What It Takes, Its Got To Be A Miracle and some others

[sup_fan]

speculation post [[like how on Youtube vids they put a disclaim in case there's potentially offensive content lol)

JMC were definitely running into headwinds in late 71. the duets were bombs [[frankly shouldn't have been released). Both the single and album Touch failed. On FB some people have shared some reviews from lots of different shows through the years. the ones issued during the Carter Baron run in Aug 71 with the Tops was not very favorable. in a nutshell, it basically said too much MOR and non-Sup material.

So they regrouped. recorded the various tracks in fall of 71 with different producers and ended up going with FJ. the lead single and album did well.

but then Cindy departed
then there was the hubbub w the Copa and HI dates, with jean and mary ill
then they started working with an outside producer
then motown moved to LA
then the big release of LSTB
then there were essentially no recorded sessions with the group [[other than IGIMTM and the JW stuff).

seems like there was a big hiccup in summer 71 with Touch, Return Mag 7, gotta have love. they seemed to sort of get back on track with FJ in Dec but then it all fell apart again in the summer 72

[Boogiedown]

you can add the disbandment of the Andantes in 1972....the Supremes secret weapon now unavailable . Webb had to bring in yet even more new voices to try to obtain a Supremes sound using the Blossoms.

the voices of just the 3 current Supremes obviously weren't cutting it .

[sup_fan]

you can add the disbandment of the Andantes in 1972....the Supremes secret weapon now unavailable . Webb had to bring in yet even more new voices to try to obtain a Supremes sound using the Blossoms.

the voices of just the 3 current Supremes obviously weren't cutting it .

that line in Jimmy's recap of the album has always bugged me. WTF was he looking for!??!!? i'm assuming he had heard of The Supremes prior to this assignment lol and had heard a tune or two of theirs. it was never about a massive choral sound but of a group of 3 singers. sure there were times with added voices. or added vocal lines. like how Frank added the As and [[i think) JMC on multiple tracks. Like on This Is The Story and Touch and Loving Country. that would have been a much more interesting and captivating approach to creating a larger and more complex sound than just having 6 women standing and singing as a choir.

hell even when prior producers wanted to beef up the vocals, the As were surgically layered in. like on CW&P. it gave fullness to the sound but without swamping it.

[Boogiedown]

that line in Jimmy's recap of the album has always bugged me. WTF was he looking for!??!!? i'm assuming he had heard of The Supremes prior to this assignment lol and had heard a tune or two of theirs. .

So was Jimmy shocked by the way they sounded?? Did he approach Motown and say I'm not getting a good Supremes sound out of these ladies.

Did Suzanne laugh and say, "We never could, that's why we used the Andantes."

Was Jimmy relieved and said, "well for goodness sakes, let's get them in here!!."

Then Suzanne replies ....."uh, there's one problem ...."

[SatansBlues]

So did Jean record anything with the group after the JW project/sessions?

[reese]

So did Jean record anything with the group after the JW project/sessions?

Wasn't there the session with Frank Wilson where they recorded LOVE TRAIN? Or was that before?

[bradsupremes]

So did Jean record anything with the group after the JW project/sessions?

Yes, there were more sessions. "Love Train," "Remote Control," "Traveling Light" were all done after Jimmy Webb. I think "Traveling Light" was Jean's last session. Then there's Stevie Wonder sessions with "Bad Weather," "I'll Wait A Lifetime," "Soft Days," and possibly a few other songs.

[blackguy69]

It was the blackberries that was the added voices . Also Brenda and Billie from the undisputed truth did add background vocals to the girls song not replace them. They were the added voices to Up the Ladder not the Andantes. And to point out the songs that don’t have Mary or Cindy on them were either recorded before Jean was an official supreme or the song was meant for another artist [[i.e Then We can try again) or the unreleased unfinished songs that’s Mary and Cindy didn’t lay the vocals yet.

that line in Jimmy's recap of the album has always bugged me. WTF was he looking for!??!!? i'm assuming he had heard of The Supremes prior to this assignment lol and had heard a tune or two of theirs. it was never about a massive choral sound but of a group of 3 singers. sure there were times with added voices. or added vocal lines. like how Frank added the As and [[i think) JMC on multiple tracks. Like on This Is The Story and Touch and Loving Country. that would have been a much more interesting and captivating approach to creating a larger and more complex sound than just having 6 women standing and singing as a choir.

hell even when prior producers wanted to beef up the vocals, the As were surgically layered in. like on CW&P. it gave fullness to the sound but without swamping it.

[RanRan79]

that line in Jimmy's recap of the album has always bugged me. WTF was he looking for!??!!? i'm assuming he had heard of The Supremes prior to this assignment lol and had heard a tune or two of theirs. it was never about a massive choral sound but of a group of 3 singers. sure there were times with added voices. or added vocal lines. like how Frank added the As and [[i think) JMC on multiple tracks. Like on This Is The Story and Touch and Loving Country. that would have been a much more interesting and captivating approach to creating a larger and more complex sound than just having 6 women standing and singing as a choir.

hell even when prior producers wanted to beef up the vocals, the As were surgically layered in. like on CW&P. it gave fullness to the sound but without swamping it.

Agreed, but there also has to be some blame placed on the Supremes themselves. The minute the Blossoms walked in the door, Mary, Jean and Lynda should have pitched a fit. Could you imagine the crime scene that would have ensued if the Tempts were preparing to do a session and the Dramatics walked in to sing along?

[RanRan79]

It was the blackberries that was the added voices . Also Brenda and Billie from the undisputed truth did add background vocals to the girls song not replace them. They were the added voices to Up the Ladder not the Andantes. And to point out the songs that don’t have Mary or Cindy on them were either recorded before Jean was an official supreme or the song was meant for another artist [[i.e Then We can try again) or the unreleased unfinished songs that’s Mary and Cindy didn’t lay the vocals yet.

Mary and Cindy had a great blend together, but IMO it was a really soft sound. My suspicion is that many of the producers thought the same thing, which is why the Supremes no longer just had the Andantes creeping in, now there's Blackberries and Undisputed Truths too. Lol Lynda was a very different kind of singer from Cindy, so it boggles my mind why Mary, Lynda and Jean weren't enough for JW. Later, when Scherrie comes in, the backing vocals were absolutely fantastic, and I attribute that to the fact that it was all three Supremes singing together, rather than just two.

[RanRan79]

Piggybacking off my point about Mary, Lynda and Jean, I wonder too if JW really wasn't familiar with the new lineup. Lynda was pretty fresh in the group when these sessions started. I don't know how much time between "Miss the Man" and when the first JW session took place, but I wonder if he was figuring that the sound needed padding because he was basing it off of Cindy and Mary, rather than Lynda and Mary, since most of the latest Supremes singles that year were recorded with Cindy, not Lynda.

[marybrewster]

My question is, what DID Jean want to sing? It sounds like she wanted to ditch the MOR and showtunes. She reluctantly sang the Diana lead hits, as that's what the audience that came to see "The Supremes" wanted to hear. So what's left? There's been few instances where an LP cut was performed live. So I don't know what she wanted to fill a show with. Covers by the Carpenters?

[sup_fan]

Mary and Cindy had a great blend together, but IMO it was a really soft sound. My suspicion is that many of the producers thought the same thing, which is why the Supremes no longer just had the Andantes creeping in, now there's Blackberries and Undisputed Truths too. Lol Lynda was a very different kind of singer from Cindy, so it boggles my mind why Mary, Lynda and Jean weren't enough for JW. Later, when Scherrie comes in, the backing vocals were absolutely fantastic, and I attribute that to the fact that it was all three Supremes singing together, rather than just two.

that's a good description. M and C had a softer more delicate sound. and that seemed to fit Frank Wilson perfectly. sure he added other vocals at times. with TITS and Touch, i know there are other voices but i also wonder if the sups didn't still do some of the layered tracks. maybe not all but some.

the tunes JW recorded and the production of them was more hard edged. a more rock sound. maybe he was thinking he needed the Ikettes to do the backing vocals. or perhaps that was the sound he was wanting. so he should have gone and recorded the ikettes then.

with MJL you did have a more full, stronger sound than MJC. Lynda's voice was more powerful.

[sup_fan]

Piggybacking off my point about Mary, Lynda and Jean, I wonder too if JW really wasn't familiar with the new lineup. Lynda was pretty fresh in the group when these sessions started. I don't know how much time between "Miss the Man" and when the first JW session took place, but I wonder if he was figuring that the sound needed padding because he was basing it off of Cindy and Mary, rather than Lynda and Mary, since most of the latest Supremes singles that year were recorded with Cindy, not Lynda.

my guess is IGIMTM was recorded later. the show Pippin didn't even open on Broadway until late Oct 72. of course as a financial backer, motown would have been aware of the score and involved with the pre production of the show. but i'm guessing the girls recorded it in later summer?

[sup_fan]

It was the blackberries that was the added voices . Also Brenda and Billie from the undisputed truth did add background vocals to the girls song not replace them. They were the added voices to Up the Ladder not the Andantes. And to point out the songs that don’t have Mary or Cindy on them were either recorded before Jean was an official supreme or the song was meant for another artist [[i.e Then We can try again) or the unreleased unfinished songs that’s Mary and Cindy didn’t lay the vocals yet.

yeah i sort of use The A's generically, for all of the session singers that worked on Sups material. you do have a good point about Brenda and Billie. they did work on the Tops Still Water and their sound was so nice. they had a lighter, more delicate vocal sound than the A's which could some times get bogged down. they had a big, heavy sound.

so i agree that B and B were probably better augmentors for the Sups than the A's. you could easily slide them into the tunes without any problems