The Supremes Story

[marybrewster]

Do you think there will ever be a comprehensive book detailing the career of the Supremes?

Yes, there have been several books written about the group; Mary's [[×3), Diana's, plus offerings by J. Randy, Randall Wilson, Flo's sister and daughter, Tony Turner, Mark Ribowsky, Peter Benjamin, and a few others......but what's that, 10? Even some of those have been specific to members, just touching on the group. And only a few have actually been well written.

Think about the Beatles or Elvis. There's 100's, maybe 1000's of books on them.

[RanRan79]

Only if a superfan decides to undertake the project. And of course I'm referring to those superfans who would be willing to document the history without bias toward any one Supreme.

Unfortunately, there does not appear to be much scholarly interest in the story of the Supremes, which is obviously not the case for the Beatles or Elvis, both of which not only have tons of books devoted to their history, but also documentaries. Race and gender are factors, as is music snobbery, where singer/songwriters are viewed more favorably than interpreters of song. And then there's the petty infighting and feuding, which honestly got more headlines in the 80s thru the present rather than their timeless music.

I personally would love to see someone undertake the task of writing that one tome that we fans could hold in high regard. In all these years we still don't know a whole lot of the ins and outs of how the Supremes' music was made. I would love to know exactly what kind of thought went into songs, sessions, album concepts, who would sing lead and why and on what, what kind of creative involvement did the ladies have with their music. Sure, I know some of this has been addressed in bits and pieces for the EE booklets, but I want more in depth information.

I would also like more personal details. I'm not talking who lost their virginity and to who and when and where it happened. I'm talking more anecdotes like the one about Flo and Diana trying to make Mary believe that they were ditching the Supremes to join the army. What about the car accident Florence and Diana were in and they had to be hospitalized? I'm guessing that didn't even make the newspapers and if Eddie Holland had never mentioned it, who would have known it happened? Who was driving? Did they hit something or someone, or did someone hit them? It's weird that Mary didn't even mention it in her book. [[Not weird at all that Diana didn't mention it in hers since she said mostly said a lot of nothing in it anyway.) What about what it was like to be a relative of the Supremes when they were at their peak? What kinds of perks came with that?

And then any comprehensive book would have to detail as much about the 70s Supremes as the 60s Supremes, which the 70s groupings surely have their own treasure trove of history information to detail. There has to be a lot to write about them as well.

Flo is gone. Barbara is gone. Mary is gone. Cindy is incapacitated. Diana my very well be unwilling to participate, same with Jean. Lamont Dozier is gone. Harvey Fuqua is gone. History lives and dies with these people. Time is of the essence, even for some of the family that was around at the time.

Marybrewster, you asked the question, now just the write the damn book already. But first go to Reese and pick his brain. That's half the book right there.

[sup_fan]

i agree that a major biographical outline of the group isn't going to happen unfortunately. frankly i think that's what this site is for. for the superfans to share memories, insights, discuss various records or performances or aspects of their career.

i'd not heard about the car accident that Ran is referring to. of course there was the early wreck that involved Berry's car and Mary's story about how berry caught her in the lie about the car and was kicking her out of the group. and then there were the major car accidents like the one during the Mototown Revue in 63, the one involving the Temps later in the 60s and the one involving Stevie in the 70s.

much of Randy's books are relatively unbiased, his first and third being the most balanced IMO. if you take all of the books and piece them together, you probably have a fairly accurate general history.

i wish we could get George to continue the amazing discography he did for Randy's last book, going into details about every album. have him do the 70s Supremes albums

[reese]

Marybrewster, you asked the question, now just the write the damn book already. But first go to Reese and pick his brain. That's half the book right there.

You do flatter me.

But in all seriousness, I would love a book like the one you described. Many years ago, I bought a book called BURT BACHARACH: SONG BY SONG or something like that. It examined every composition he had done to that point, plus all the versions recorded. I bought it while on vacation in NYC, read it on the 4-hour bus ride back home, and still didn't finish it. An examination of the Supremes like that would be, well, Supreme.

That said, as you also said, time is of the essence. Most of the participants are gone and Diana isn't the type to look back. Not to mention, I wonder just how much she really remembers at this point. Even in SPARROW, there were details that a fan could have told her were wrong. And at this stage, would Diana really want to devote the time necessary to make it worthwhile?

When the REFLECTIONS dvd were released years ago, I remember thinking that it was so dry compared to those issued on the Tempts, Four Tops, and the Miracles which at least had those still with us participating. I still think a great AMERICAN MASTERS or a mini-series done by say, Ken Burns, would be great.

[RanRan79]

i agree that a major biographical outline of the group isn't going to happen unfortunately. frankly i think that's what this site is for. for the superfans to share memories, insights, discuss various records or performances or aspects of their career.

i'd not heard about the car accident that Ran is referring to. of course there was the early wreck that involved Berry's car and Mary's story about how berry caught her in the lie about the car and was kicking her out of the group. and then there were the major car accidents like the one during the Mototown Revue in 63, the one involving the Temps later in the 60s and the one involving Stevie in the 70s.

much of Randy's books are relatively unbiased, his first and third being the most balanced IMO. if you take all of the books and piece them together, you probably have a fairly accurate general history.

i wish we could get George to continue the amazing discography he did for Randy's last book, going into details about every album. have him do the 70s Supremes albums

This forum is full of fans whose posts are mostly feelings colored by bias, including mine. While there is certainly some documenting that occurs here, especially when people like Susaye or George drop in, it doesn't take the place of an in depth examination of the group's history. There's a ton of stuff we fans just don't know.

Eddie Holland wrote about the car accident in his book. I believe it took place in early 1967 in Florida, but I could have the details wrong. I think the accident ended up messing up the recording schedule. I'd have to re-read the book. I can't remember the exact details beyond Flo and Diana being in a car accident and having to be hospitalized and I'm almost certain it was 1967.

JRT's books, while definitely containing valuable information on the group as a whole, and even the individual members, were centered around Diana. I think all of his Diana books make a great comprehensive source for Diana's history, but they are indeed biased toward her, as she is the main subject.

[RanRan79]

You do flatter me.

But in all seriousness, I would love a book like the one you described. Many years ago, I bought a book called BURT BACHARACH: SONG BY SONG or something like that. It examined every composition he had done to that point, plus all the versions recorded. I bought it while on vacation in NYC, read it on the 4-hour bus ride back home, and still didn't finish it. An examination of the Supremes like that would be, well, Supreme.

That said, as you also said, time is of the essence. Most of the participants are gone and Diana isn't the type to look back. Not to mention, I wonder just how much she really remembers at this point. Even in SPARROW, there were details that a fan could have told her were wrong. And at this stage, would Diana really want to devote the time necessary to make it worthwhile?

When the REFLECTIONS dvd were released years ago, I remember thinking that it was so dry compared to those issued on the Tempts, Four Tops, and the Miracles which at least had those still with us participating. I still think a great AMERICAN MASTERS or a mini-series done by say, Ken Burns, would be great.

What's interesting about Diana to me, is the question of "how often does she have the opportunity to remember?" What I mean by that, is how often does she get interviewed and get asked in depth questions about the Supremes or her solo career in general?

Mary was always a sentimentalist, but even she was always being interviewed about the same ole stuff. It was the same questions over and over again. Every now and then, some interviewer would ask something surprising and Mary would get to go into detail about something we had never heard before. Those moments are so special to me, especially now that Mary is gone.

I don't think Diana ever has the chance to go back publicly. True enough, she did screw up some details in her book. Honestly, I'd be surprised to learn that she didn't have a ghostwriter. Then again, she may have thought she was good enough to be an authoress. She certainly thought she was good enough to guide her solo career. Okay, enough of that.

[Spreadinglove21]

Motown in general has never had a really good serious book written about its history and impact. At least compared to Stax in which there are a couple of excellent books documenting its history and influence.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I don't think we will ever see a book about the Supremes that would capture the mass public. Mary did her version but she never really told the whole story. Diana's was a piece of fluff masquerading as "inspiration". True, Diana seems to not be one to focus on her past in a sentimental way. The closest we get to that are photo clips in concert during "Missing You".
Outside of sensationalism spurred on by the musical "Dreamgirls", we haven't seen anything remotely touch on how important the Supremes were in bridging the gap of racism and sexism through music. However, that very racism and sexism is probably a big reason why we don't see more books about them.
There is certainly a wide story to cover with the Supremes and their history and what they mean for music and culture but it doesn't seem to strike any writer's imagination to look beyond a superstar, a singer who left and was dealing with tragedy and a background singer whose beauty and voice was sadly overlooked and underutilized.
The Beatles and Elvis are still pushed as cultural icons. The Supremes should be but racism and sexism have pushed them into the background. They should be right up there with Elvis and the Beatles but now just seem to be a sidenote to the Motown story. What they meant should not have been swept under the rug like it has. I wonder if Diana prefers to not dwell on her beginnings or if Motown made that decision to focus on Berry and the company. I guess they think the public will think-"Well, there was Dreamgirls-that's it." Just sad.

[gman]

It was getting hard to sit thru Mary interviews....the social importance and the dream were discussed enough....I was so glad she started giving more attention to the 70's group in later days....Jean and Scherrie are both so much more deserving than a brief mention. DJ's should seriously consider playing more 70's tracks...

[sup_fan]

i the notes for Call Her Miss Ross, Randy identifies that he had an unfinished manuscript called something like Satin and Tears and it was to be a Sups biography. and that much of the Sups/DRATS content in CHMR was from this

of course it would be great to get a copy of that!

[captainjames]

I don't think we will ever get a story about the ladies as long as some family members and former Motown folks are still with us. I have always been curious s to why Barbara would never talk to interviewers about the early days. That could have been an interested insight from a different resource. All, we heard was she was happy and had nothing to say. She seem to talk through Mary but not the press. Berry Gordy role would definitely have to be included and I am sure he is denying rights to the music or his image. The same is probably true of Smokey but no sure. Wasn't there suppose to be a story with Faith Evans a while back that just went nowhere and ended up pissing off Flo's daughters ? I thought I would get a good piece of the insight rom Motown the Musical but that left me empty and confused. There is nor much more about the Supremes I don't know but I don't need the horror stories brought to the screen; Flo pissed off the boss, Diana was used as Motown's work horse, Mary was used to make the plan work. The Screen version should show what those ladies did in history and how they broke through barriers and the love that they truly had for each other.

[Ollie9]

I don't know but I don't need the horror stories brought to the screen; Flo pissed off the boss, Diana was used as Motown's work horse, Mary was used to make the plan work. The Screen version should show what those ladies did in history and how they broke through barriers and the love that they truly had for each other.

As long as they left out all the nasty bits such as Flo’s mental health problems, Diana’s collapse though overwork and stress, plus Mary and Flo’s general resentment at being pushed into the background it might prove an interesting, if slightly tooth rotting movie.

[RanRan79]

I don't think we will ever get a story about the ladies as long as some family members and former Motown folks are still with us. I have always been curious s to why Barbara would never talk to interviewers about the early days. That could have been an interested insight from a different resource. All, we heard was she was happy and had nothing to say. She seem to talk through Mary but not the press. Berry Gordy role would definitely have to be included and I am sure he is denying rights to the music or his image. The same is probably true of Smokey but no sure. Wasn't there suppose to be a story with Faith Evans a while back that just went nowhere and ended up pissing off Flo's daughters ? I thought I would get a good piece of the insight rom Motown the Musical but that left me empty and confused. There is nor much more about the Supremes I don't know but I don't need the horror stories brought to the screen; Flo pissed off the boss, Diana was used as Motown's work horse, Mary was used to make the plan work. The Screen version should show what those ladies did in history and how they broke through barriers and the love that they truly had for each other.

Yeah, what was the deal with Barbara? As far as I can tell there is no record of her being interviewed with the exception of her interview with Mary for the MTS EE booklet. It seems really strange that she wouldn't be sought out often to add her voice and recollections about the early Supremes days. I do recall reading [[online?) that she once admitted that she couldn't bare to listen to the Supremes when they started having hits, but I don't know how true that is or what the source would be.

Same with Betty. No one ever thought to seek her out and get her thoughts on the earliest of days with these future legends? Or maybe for Betty and Barbara it was a sore spot, considering they left and Flo, Diana and Mary went on to great achievements. I guess at this point we'll never know. Best case scenario is that the ladies left some record behind of their recollections. Next best case scenario is that they spoke about these things with their children who might be able to relay the stories, but it would be second hand.

As for the Flo movie, it fell apart when it was discovered that the person behind it was some kind of scammer.

[sup_fan]

my guess is that there was limited publicity of the group as a quartette. frankly no one really cared about the releases, PR announcements, press photos, etc. so it's not like much of that was really in circulation.

once the group hit big, i don't know that many people really cared. sure the girls occasionally mentioned Barbara and Betty in interviews. but the 3 Supremes were so intriguing that naturally all attention was on them. and motown had a sharp and savvy PR dept and knew to focus on the 3 girls. who cares about the 4th one, now long gone. and by the time of Copa, there was already the effort in place to start narrowing the public focus on DR. why bother bringing up another person?

plus without the internet, for the average person or reporter to really dig around and find Barbara in Detroit would have been challenging

[bradsupremes]

Barbara had been asked over the years for interviews, but she felt that since her time with the group was short and out of respect to Diana and Mary, it wasn't her place to speak on the group. It was only when Mary asked her to partake in the interview for the Meet The Supremes Expanded Edition that she agreed to speak on her time with the group. She said she didn't have any regrets and was happy with how her life turned out, but one does have to wonder her initial feelings in 1964/1965 seeing the group explode with success.

[captainjames]

I saw the Temptations musical play and the movie and learned about Elbridge "Al" Bryant. Very little but I understood what happen and what went down with the group and it was done very well. A lot of us knew where Barbara was and where she was working so reaching her would not have been difficult but Betty was a Primette and I am not sure where or what happen to her. I think if you were going to do a story about the Supremes then at some time [[in the beginning) you would need to bring her contribution to the screen as well. Its all water under the bridge now and I don't think we will ever get a true story and there were a couple of times that Barbara came to see the Supremes when they were in Detroit.

[marybrewster]

I know Mary kept in contact with Barbara over the years; there's pictures of them together in some of Mary's old Fan Club newsletters. Quite fun to see Barbara as an "adult".

How long was Betty actually in the group? From 1959 to 1960? I can't imagine there was a lot of action in those early years; probably a handful of "performances", at best.

What I've always wanted to see is photos of the early years, when there were 4 Primettes/Supremes. We've seen, what, 10 pictures over the years? Surely more exist.

[captainjames]

There is more that exist ---- not a lot but there is pics and videos of four Supremes that do exist.

[RanRan79]

I know Mary kept in contact with Barbara over the years; there's pictures of them together in some of Mary's old Fan Club newsletters. Quite fun to see Barbara as an "adult".

How long was Betty actually in the group? From 1959 to 1960? I can't imagine there was a lot of action in those early years; probably a handful of "performances", at best.

What I've always wanted to see is photos of the early years, when there were 4 Primettes/Supremes. We've seen, what, 10 pictures over the years? Surely more exist.

The ladies have all given the impression that from the first performance on, the Primettes worked pretty steadily. So I would expect Betty to be able to give some insight into that time.

There was an interview with Cal of the Primes that I ran across a gajillion years ago where someone got him on record talking about the early Primettes days. The only thing I can recall is that he was quite fond of Florence and I think he said they had a thing for a minute.

As far as photos go, I don't even think we've seen 10 of the Primettes. There's the one of the Betty lineup in Mary's first book; the one of the Betty lineup in Berry's book; the two separate poses of the Barbara lineup that have shown up everywhere [[though I'm not sure if they were still the Primettes for this or if this was their official first shots as the Supremes); and then the photo of Betty, Flo and Mary after Betty's wedding. I've never seen a performance photo of the Primettes or the Supremes as four members.

[RanRan79]

There is more that exist ---- not a lot but there is pics and videos of four Supremes that do exist.

I'd be super surprised if there is video of four Supremes, but I imagine there are more photos out there, between the girls themselves, their family and friends, etc.

[sup_fan]

i'd bet my bottom dollar there isn't a single video of the Primettes. that type of equipment was just not readily available for the average person. and none of the venues they played were of a caliber that would have had that set up, much less to have used it on the Ps.

frankly the same can be said about photos. sure some people had cameras but that was a special gift you got for graduation or something. and buying film wasn't something you'd do just any old day. teens had MUCH less disposable income then and so buying film or paying for photo development just wasn't something they did.

[RanRan79]

i'd bet my bottom dollar there isn't a single video of the Primettes. that type of equipment was just not readily available for the average person. and none of the venues they played were of a caliber that would have had that set up, much less to have used it on the Ps.

frankly the same can be said about photos. sure some people had cameras but that was a special gift you got for graduation or something. and buying film wasn't something you'd do just any old day. teens had MUCH less disposable income then and so buying film or paying for photo development just wasn't something they did.

I agree about the video, but I can't imagine home photography in the late 50s and early 60s was terribly expensive. My family alone has tons of photos from this time. Most of the families I know have tons of photos from this time. To me it seems like folks were always picking up the camera to capture random moments. I can imagine there were at least a couple times the four Primettes were hanging out at one of their homes and someone decided to snap a picture. The photo Mary has in her first book of the Betty Primettes is a good example. And I'm guessing someone's relative had to have thought it was a good idea to snap a photo of daughter/sister/niece/godchild/neighbor/kinfolk and her singing group performing at a dance/party/event at some point.

[reese]

I agree about the video, but I can't imagine home photography in the late 50s and early 60s was terribly expensive. My family alone has tons of photos from this time. Most of the families I know have tons of photos from this time. To me it seems like folks were always picking up the camera to capture random moments. I can imagine there were at least a couple times the four Primettes were hanging out at one of their homes and someone decided to snap a picture. The photo Mary has in her first book of the Betty Primettes is a good example. And I'm guessing someone's relative had to have thought it was a good idea to snap a photo of daughter/sister/niece/godchild/neighbor/kinfolk and her singing group performing at a dance/party/event at some point.

When I saw the photo of the original Primettes in Mary's first book, I wondered how many more photos there were if Mary picked this one to include. You can barely see Betty in it. I was even more surprised when Berry's book included a much more formal portrait of the original group. That should have been the one Mary chose for her book.

But I agree with you. There are probably tons of photos out there. The one of Mary, Flo, and Betty at her wedding being a great example. I wouldn't be surprised there were some silent home movies out there as well.

[sup_fan]

I agree about the video, but I can't imagine home photography in the late 50s and early 60s was terribly expensive. My family alone has tons of photos from this time. Most of the families I know have tons of photos from this time. To me it seems like folks were always picking up the camera to capture random moments. I can imagine there were at least a couple times the four Primettes were hanging out at one of their homes and someone decided to snap a picture. The photo Mary has in her first book of the Betty Primettes is a good example. And I'm guessing someone's relative had to have thought it was a good idea to snap a photo of daughter/sister/niece/godchild/neighbor/kinfolk and her singing group performing at a dance/party/event at some point.

i think the difference is age. parents and grandparents had cameras. someone graduating high school might receive a Brownie for a present. but a 13 year old probably would not have had a camera of their own. and using their parents to go to a Sock Hop? "young lady - a camera is NOT a toy!" lol

Also the Primettes weren't suburban kids but inner city. Mary talks about how they had to scrounge up bus fare to get to Hitsville. if transportation costs were a bit challenging to handle, there's no way they were spending money on film. and same for their cohorts.

[captainjames]

Not to drag this on... Motown and pre fans from Detroit over to Windsor recorded almost everything. Betty is the one where there is little to no history from film or photos. However, Barbara is a bit different.