Revisiting Return to Love - the Promoters Tried to Tie Diana Down for 5 Years

[sup_fan]

So are we back to it’s all Mary’s fault and Diana’s the victim? I hope we don’t go down this road again.

no that certainly wasn't my point. i believe the claims in Mary's book that Diana could be selfish, nasty, etc. But i also believe [[and plenty of others on here have attested to it) that Diana also did many things to help flo and mary. and mary did many things to help diana and flo. and flo did things to help mary and diana. all 3 of them had wonderful moments and nasty moments. but Dreamgirl itemizes out every slight that Diana ever made and makes no mention of the good things she did. it's very lopsided. even aside from the fact that mary probably wouldn't list the bad things she did too - it's her book after all

[sup_fan]

Diana Ross obviously felt Mary Wilson was no where near entitled to any kind of money that was close to hers and to have it that way would elevate Mary to a level approaching hers and no way was she having that. She didn’t realize the star power the name Mary Wilson could have in amping up this tour. She should have been happy that at last Mary and Cindy would be getting a healthy piece of the pie and her share of it would therefore increase along with it.
Instead she honestly and incorrectly felt any Supreme would do . But by 2000 the real fans that would even care at this point now knew the rest of the story and had witnessed how over the years things had played out. Any Supreme wouldn’t do.

there's really no logical way anyone could argue diana and mary should have been paid the exact same amount. yes in 1969 they were. and perhaps if they'd done a reunion or gig in 71, sure. but by 2000, the commercial power of Diana's name was higher than the Supremes' name and higher than mary's. I'm assuming it's accurate that Diana was going to get a % and not a flat fee like mary's. mary claims that Diana was going to net $15 - 20M. possible. but even a MDC reunion would have had some struggles to fill every huge arena and at $200+ ticket prices.

now i do agree that, if it's true, that mary was to have no participation in the strategy and plans for the tour, that's unacceptable. when it would have come down to how the show was structured, songs, etc., she should have had an equal voice with Diana. the two of them should have partnered on that.

[RanRan79]

but that also sort of implies that being a solo star is "better" than being "just" a supreme. my question is why is it viewed negatively to suggest that staying in the group would have been a good option for her? the versatility of the group and the versatility of each of the members is part of the magic of the Supremes.

It's not about one being better than the other, it's about what the person wants and Mary wanted out. There are pros to cons to being a solo or being a group. I think it makes sense that when you've been with a group since you were 14 and now you're in your mid 30s, that you'd want to do something different. It's no different than an employee who decides after X amount of time that it's time they go into the same business, but this time for self.

When you're in a group, you have to work with the group. When you're a solo, everything hinges on your desires and you don't have to confer with others like you would in a group. You also only have to deal with your shit. In a group you have to deal with your shit and everyone else's too. That might be cool at 21. At 35, not so much. Plus, as an artist, in a group, the art of the music is all about [[or should be about) the entirety of the group. As a solo artist, it's all about you.

But again, with the way the various Supremes walked out the exit door leaving Mary to "pick up the pieces" [[see what I did there?) she was always going to be more invested in the Supremes than anyone else. Even if Diana or Flo- had she lived- came back, chances are Mary would still have been the last Supreme standing at some point or other. The stress of that has to get to the point where it's overwhelming. To expect Mary to remain in a situation that she clearly had no more love for, is to treat her as though she isn't a human being. The lady should have been allowed to pursue her dreams and goals, sink or swim, succeed or fail.

And quite honestly, if everything for Mary was about dollars and cents, it seems like reforming the Supremes- or any group at that point- after she was dropped from Motown and she left Pedro and that whole disaster, would have been a no brainer. If the name carried more value than "Mary Wilson", then I think Mary would have gladly gone back. The fact that she didn't- and showed no interest in doing so- suggest to me that she really was over the whole group thing.

[RanRan79]

there's really no logical way anyone could argue diana and mary should have been paid the exact same amount. yes in 1969 they were. and perhaps if they'd done a reunion or gig in 71, sure. but by 2000, the commercial power of Diana's name was higher than the Supremes' name and higher than mary's. I'm assuming it's accurate that Diana was going to get a % and not a flat fee like mary's. mary claims that Diana was going to net $15 - 20M. possible. but even a MDC reunion would have had some struggles to fill every huge arena and at $200+ ticket prices.

now i do agree that, if it's true, that mary was to have no participation in the strategy and plans for the tour, that's unacceptable. when it would have come down to how the show was structured, songs, etc., she should have had an equal voice with Diana. the two of them should have partnered on that.

Diana invested in the tour, so she was rightfully owed a return on her investment, which would have likely been a ton more than Mary was getting for signing on without putting any money down. Now, previously I was of the opinion that regardless Diana should be paid more because her name was more valuable than Mary's. I would always use the MJ and Tito analogy: who in their right mind would pay Tito the same amount as Michael Jackson to do a tour? But I've since changed my mind on that. If the tour is a SUPREMES tour, regardless of if it started out a Diana tour idea or not, and the Supremes were always paid the same amount, then it didn't matter whose name was more valuable. The group was the group and all members should get the same pay. So either that would mean Mary would get paid on par with the value of the name "Diana Ross", or Diana would get paid less than what she is used to, in order to compensate Mary and Cindy for the values of their names. Of course if girl power is a big deal to Diana, it wouldn't seem strange for her to say to the promoters "You're paying me 10 million for a Supremes tour, the other Supremes should get the same amount". There's nothing wrong with advocating for someone other than yourself sometimes.

[Boogiedown]

Yes Sup
and it doesn’t sound like Mary was asking for “equal”pay but rather something more equitable than what was being offered.
The big mistake imo was Diana’s perception that this would be a DIANA ROSS with the supremes Tour. When it should have been billed as The SUPREMES tour.
Of course Diana had a cache of material that she additionally brought to the table and how do you satisfy fans showing up for that material. I have a wild idea.
Lynda mentioned Marys lack
of business sense when it seems Diana was the one not seeing the bigger picture. She had everything to gain by making a supremes reunion a big deal . They should have milked it for all it was worth.

Diana Ross refused to validate that degree of signicance of the group as it would
lessen her . Nothing learned from Motown 25.

[telekin]

It's not about one being better than the other, it's about what the person wants and Mary wanted out. There are pros to cons to being a solo or being a group. I think it makes sense that when you've been with a group since you were 14 and now you're in your mid 30s, that you'd want to do something different. It's no different than an employee who decides after X amount of time that it's time they go into the same business, but this time for self.

When you're in a group, you have to work with the group. When you're a solo, everything hinges on your desires and you don't have to confer with others like you would in a group. You also only have to deal with your shit. In a group you have to deal with your shit and everyone else's too. That might be cool at 21. At 35, not so much. Plus, as an artist, in a group, the art of the music is all about [[or should be about) the entirety of the group. As a solo artist, it's all about you.

But again, with the way the various Supremes walked out the exit door leaving Mary to "pick up the pieces" [[see what I did there?) she was always going to be more invested in the Supremes than anyone else. Even if Diana or Flo- had she lived- came back, chances are Mary would still have been the last Supreme standing at some point or other. The stress of that has to get to the point where it's overwhelming. To expect Mary to remain in a situation that she clearly had no more love for, is to treat her as though she isn't a human being. The lady should have been allowed to pursue her dreams and goals, sink or swim, succeed or fail.

And quite honestly, if everything for Mary was about dollars and cents, it seems like reforming the Supremes- or any group at that point- after she was dropped from Motown and she left Pedro and that whole disaster, would have been a no brainer. If the name carried more value than "Mary Wilson", then I think Mary would have gladly gone back. The fact that she didn't- and showed no interest in doing so- suggest to me that she really was over the whole group thing.

I think this is a good point that isn't made often enough.

Yes, even if Mary was essentially working on the back of The Supremes, like all the other ladies in The Supremes would end up doing at some point or another, she was doing it on her own terms, as her own boss.

And while I get the argument that The Supremes should have been reformed, given that she was working as a Supreme for the rest of her career, I also believe that she likely felt that she'd paid her dues by then. She was running her own show and wasn't interested in having to answer to Berry, Motown, Pedro, or other enterprising group members like Lynda Laurence, for that matter.

[sup_fan]

Yes Sup
and it doesn’t sound like Mary was asking for “equal”pay but rather something more equitable than what was being offered.
The big mistake imo was Diana’s perception that this would be a DIANA ROSS with the supremes Tour. When it should have been billed as The SUPREMES tour.
Of course Diana had a cache of material that she additionally brought to the table and how do you satisfy fans showing up for that material. I have a wild idea.
Lynda mentioned Marys lack
of business sense when it seems Diana was the one not seeing the bigger picture. She had everything to gain by making a supremes reunion a big deal . They should have milked it for all it was worth.

Diana Ross refused to validate that degree of signicance of the group as it would
lessen her . Nothing learned from Motown 25.

Mary's interviews post declining the tour seem to vary. she was often quoted in regards to the $ amount and the differences there. but then when pressed about it she was talking about "respect" and all. i think a lot of people were having a bit of a problem accepting the $4M not being enough. given that most people are earning WAY below that for an ANNUAL salary, for mary to really go off on $4M for 3 months not being enough, is a challenge. it made the argument much more petty.

IMO she should have focused JUST on the respect issue. if she had argued in the public about her being locked out of having any role in the planning and set up of the tour and after having spent years keeping the legacy alive, then i think you have something MUCH more compelling. that really would have been inappropriate, assuming it was true.

when M and C fell out of RTL, Diana probably should have just switched back to her doing solo tour. her Everyday album was new and so she could have just done that. also there was a 90s era pic of her and the FLO's backstage somewhere. I think Mickey Stevenson was also there in the pic. and Diana said something like "wouldn't it be fun to tour together some time." That probably would have been a better idea. to do her OWN show and then maybe do a segment where the FLO's come onstage and join her for an extended Sups segment. it would still be a DIANA ROSS show but with the FLO's as a special guest appearance. and have it be Scherrie, Lynda and [[i think) Freddi. Diana could talk about the FLOs and all and that would have helped reduce the reunion confusion.

[Boogiedown]

I didn’t know that four million was the amount. Seems ample . What would be Cindy’s cut ?
Mary probably figured if they are offering four, I’m probably worth six.

what did the utilized supremes get ?

[floyjoy678]

I forget what the numbers were but I seem to remember Cindy was offered less than Mary.

[sup_fan]

I didn’t know that four million was the amount. Seems ample . What would be Cindy’s cut ?
Mary probably figured if they are offering four, I’m probably worth six.

what did the utilized supremes get ?

i've seen a couple of the interviews and then what Randy wrote in his last Diana book. I believe Mary was first offered $2M by the promoters. and that was a flat amount for the full tour, which was maybe 60 days or so? something like that. if the tour did well/poor, she still got that. Not of the costs of the tours [[music charts, gowns, staff, choreographers, musicians, travel) would be deducted from that amount.

Mary pushed back hard that this wasn't an appropriate offer. now what i don't know exactly is WHAT all was viewed as inappropriate. Randy positions things that all mary had to do was show up and sing and she'd get the $2M. in that sense, i see it as inappropriate that she wasn't being involved in the planning. or was it that she wanted more money? i don't know

Diana then chipped in herself with $2M. so now that total was $4M for 60 days. Mary supposedly [[according to Randy's book) earned about $1M a year for all of her touring. here she's getting 4X that for a fraction of the time. i think that's where people were questioning the business decision from Mary. $4M is a lot of money.

no idea what C or L or S were offered. mary's comment is it was much lower for Cindy than what she got.

i do totally agree with mary about the RESPECT of including her in the planning. again according to Randy's book, mary was to finalize the $ with the promoters and THEN she and diana would hammer out what would all happen. but mary was wanting to talk first.

[blackguy69]

If memory serves correctly Cindy was offered less than 1 million then was upped to 2 million. I thought L and S got 1.5 million each.

[Boogiedown]

What a Bizarre world where we bite our nose to spite our face .
If L and S each got 1.5 million, Mary and Cindy would surely be worth twice that


so here’s my concept :

Chart a tour. The tour has two nights in a row . The first night The SUPREMES . They come out and do a traditional glitzy choreographed show of ONLY Supremes hits/material . They could even ham it up with Mary chastising Diana for moving on. Diana could say , “yes but I still know the songs “ and she could break into STONED LOVE….or a medley of post Diana Supremes . I think the crowd would eat it up. Nothing of solo Diana that night. That’s saved for night two when it’s all Diana and then only her on stage . [Maybe she does an obligatory hurried supremes medley]. But that night the proceeds are all hers .

They set this up as a one-two affair [titled ??? ] with the option
of attending either show or of buying a specially priced offer to see both nights shows .
The stage and accompaniment would already be there from the night before so less hassle there. Yes Diana works twice as hard , but she’s mostly doing her routine she’s done a million times before and she alone gets to rake in all that extra money .

I would bet the very concept would compell most to want to see both shows especially if doing so was priced just right.

[jobeterob]

I recently saw an article - one of those perhaps even done by AI - done by someone not that knowledgeable

And it referenced - before the betrayals and the books

I thought it was a reference to Mary because of the books - but she probably saw a long way back to the betrayal by Diana of leaving the Supremes

[midnightman]

I've gone back over whether or not Mary was right or wrong in her belief she should've gotten the fair share of money similar to Diana's. Why? I don't know. That's why my thoughts on this group never stays the same LOL but ever since I've been away from the forum, I've reflected and I do think they should've all gotten equal shares. Yes, Diana was the star and had had years of solo success [[well it was more spotty when it came to her chart success, but that's for another topic) but by 2000, her star had really dimmed.

And, though it hurts me to say it, Diana Ross wasn't seen the same as her fellow peers like Tina Turner and Cher, who were headlining arena shows with audiences ranging from 15 to 70. Tina was also still doing the occasional rock stadium shows as well. She was even lower than Aretha Franklin, who was still riding high off the A Rose Is Still a Rose comeback era. The difference between Diana and those three:

All three had chart success in that period:

Cher had "Believe" [[song went to the top and the album selling over 4 million copies)

Tina had "Twenty Four Seven", which became her first album to go gold in 7 years

Of course Aretha had "A Rose Is Still a Rose".

Whereas Diana had been in a commercial slump since 1984. Her last hit was in 1985. So with every album came diminishing returns.

Also we can't ignore that Diana couldn't carry a FULL arena tour. Yes, she had tours where she had stops at arenas and in many times she did perform at an arena, tickets sold out, but she also did much of her touring in smaller concert halls and casinos in Vegas. So for her to go on a full-scale arena tour, her first ever, there was already a lot of pressure. Then came the additional headaches like hiring backing dancers and then, after Mary and Cindy declined, hiring two former Supremes who most of the public didn't know about. It became a nightmare.

Diana found herself in a tough pickle. She could've canceled to save face and reshuffle her card deck. She chose to take the risk and ended up being embarrassed and humiliated and it sent her to that downward spiral that few didn't think she'd ever come out of and she was already having it rough with the Arne separation/divorce proceedings, the incident at Heathrow [[which forced her to defend her actions), her new music being more and more ignored, the issues with the "Double Platinum" film, then having to raise two boys who were becoming teenagers, is it any wonder she had her breakdown???

Diana, Mary and Cindy should've worked it out and come to an understanding instead of three women not communicating. What we could've had...

[midnightman]

Again, no evidence that Diana ever sang "People" in place of Flo. There is no debate there. However, the song was removed from the act at a point, which likely caused an issue. Isn't it possible Mary conflated the first Copa gig with a later gig in which this took place? Remember, she's writing 20 year old memories. In 1970, Diana couldn't remember that "Love Is Here" was from 1967, not 1965. And y'all swear up and down that all these years we never hear Diana talk about the music is because she doesn't remember what she recorded yesterday.

The question for me is sometimes how much of it was a mixture of memories vs "Oh I'm just gonna lie about it"? It's hard for me to imagine that Mary Wilson just up and decided "I'm going to tell lies and lies, and more lies and make googobs of money, bwah, ha, ha, ha, ha!"

Flo said something to the effect that they simply took "People" off at some point and Flo just wasn't given any more leads. And seeing how they were still performing "People" in 1966 [[with Flo leading and Mary taking the place of Diana as co-lead), I'm guessing it was removed for good after the Asian tour. Neither Supreme was good on WHEN "People" stopped being performed and, as mentioned, Diana didn't perform it until the group did the Funny Girl project.

[midnightman]

Mary repeatedly referred to Motown as "home". That's what it was to her. She wasn't letting that go until she had to. Mary was always the most sentimental Supreme. She had been with Motown since she was 16 years old.

A good manager would have gotten Mary a record deal when Dreamgirl became a hit. She wasn't gonna have people calling from record companies for a 40 year old singer singing Barbara Streisand songs.

I think we often forget that the original Supremes [[this includes Barbara) weren't even 18 when they signed with Motown. They were still babies. They never really got a chance to grow up and when they did, it was when they grew apart. That explains the incident at Motown 25, the breakdown in negotiations with RTL, how Flo was dealt with and how Mary found herself in conflict with some of the other Supremes who joined later.

[floyjoy678]

I really don't think Diana wanted to do the tour with Mary from the beginning. If she really wanted Mary on the tour, she would have been on the tour with the money she wanted. I agree with the stance that the two of them needed to hash shit out BIG TIME before touring together. They both had been harboring feelings for over 30 years by that point. Mary obviously saw this but Diana didn't. Diana chose to continuing to bottle everything up and it blew up in her face.

I think Diana was still holding a grudge on her. Not just from the books but from their issues stemming back to the Supremes days.

Call me crazy but I really do think Diana was intimidated by Mary [[apparently she nearly had a panic attack when she first saw Mary at Motown: The Musical) and I think she was going all the way back to the 60s. She has said that Mary was the one who always kept her on her toes. There's an interview Diana did in 1975 or so [[I want to say it was Russell Harty) she talks about her relationship with Mary and them going in different directions. And she just has a tone in her voice in that interview where she seems like she's mad at Mary. This was before the books and Motown 25.

[floyjoy678]

I've gone back over whether or not Mary was right or wrong in her belief she should've gotten the fair share of money similar to Diana's. Why? I don't know. That's why my thoughts on this group never stays the same LOL but ever since I've been away from the forum, I've reflected and I do think they should've all gotten equal shares. Yes, Diana was the star and had had years of solo success [[well it was more spotty when it came to her chart success, but that's for another topic) but by 2000, her star had really dimmed.

And, though it hurts me to say it, Diana Ross wasn't seen the same as her fellow peers like Tina Turner and Cher, who were headlining arena shows with audiences ranging from 15 to 70. Tina was also still doing the occasional rock stadium shows as well. She was even lower than Aretha Franklin, who was still riding high off the A Rose Is Still a Rose comeback era. The difference between Diana and those three:

All three had chart success in that period:

Cher had "Believe" [[song went to the top and the album selling over 4 million copies)

Tina had "Twenty Four Seven", which became her first album to go gold in 7 years

Of course Aretha had "A Rose Is Still a Rose".

Whereas Diana had been in a commercial slump since 1984. Her last hit was in 1985. So with every album came diminishing returns.

Also we can't ignore that Diana couldn't carry a FULL arena tour. Yes, she had tours where she had stops at arenas and in many times she did perform at an arena, tickets sold out, but she also did much of her touring in smaller concert halls and casinos in Vegas. So for her to go on a full-scale arena tour, her first ever, there was already a lot of pressure. Then came the additional headaches like hiring backing dancers and then, after Mary and Cindy declined, hiring two former Supremes who most of the public didn't know about. It became a nightmare.

Diana found herself in a tough pickle. She could've canceled to save face and reshuffle her card deck. She chose to take the risk and ended up being embarrassed and humiliated and it sent her to that downward spiral that few didn't think she'd ever come out of and she was already having it rough with the Arne separation/divorce proceedings, the incident at Heathrow [[which forced her to defend her actions), her new music being more and more ignored, the issues with the "Double Platinum" film, then having to raise two boys who were becoming teenagers, is it any wonder she had her breakdown???

Diana, Mary and Cindy should've worked it out and come to an understanding instead of three women not communicating. What we could've had...

I agree with all of this.

I chaperoned a school dance about thirteen years ago and I remember they played Cher's "Believe" and Tina's "What's Love Got To Do With It". And the Diana related song they did play was "You Keep Me Hanging On" A SUPREMES song.

I've said this before that every article I've seen written on Diana, there's ALWAYS a mention the Supremes..."The Supremes' singer", "former Supreme", "Supreme lead", etc. She can try to dismiss the Supremes but she can't hide from it lol.

[RanRan79]

I've gone back over whether or not Mary was right or wrong in her belief she should've gotten the fair share of money similar to Diana's. Why? I don't know. That's why my thoughts on this group never stays the same LOL but ever since I've been away from the forum, I've reflected and I do think they should've all gotten equal shares. Yes, Diana was the star and had had years of solo success [[well it was more spotty when it came to her chart success, but that's for another topic) but by 2000, her star had really dimmed.

And, though it hurts me to say it, Diana Ross wasn't seen the same as her fellow peers like Tina Turner and Cher, who were headlining arena shows with audiences ranging from 15 to 70. Tina was also still doing the occasional rock stadium shows as well. She was even lower than Aretha Franklin, who was still riding high off the A Rose Is Still a Rose comeback era. The difference between Diana and those three:

All three had chart success in that period:

Cher had "Believe" [[song went to the top and the album selling over 4 million copies)

Tina had "Twenty Four Seven", which became her first album to go gold in 7 years

Of course Aretha had "A Rose Is Still a Rose".

Whereas Diana had been in a commercial slump since 1984. Her last hit was in 1985. So with every album came diminishing returns.

Also we can't ignore that Diana couldn't carry a FULL arena tour. Yes, she had tours where she had stops at arenas and in many times she did perform at an arena, tickets sold out, but she also did much of her touring in smaller concert halls and casinos in Vegas. So for her to go on a full-scale arena tour, her first ever, there was already a lot of pressure. Then came the additional headaches like hiring backing dancers and then, after Mary and Cindy declined, hiring two former Supremes who most of the public didn't know about. It became a nightmare.

Diana found herself in a tough pickle. She could've canceled to save face and reshuffle her card deck. She chose to take the risk and ended up being embarrassed and humiliated and it sent her to that downward spiral that few didn't think she'd ever come out of and she was already having it rough with the Arne separation/divorce proceedings, the incident at Heathrow [[which forced her to defend her actions), her new music being more and more ignored, the issues with the "Double Platinum" film, then having to raise two boys who were becoming teenagers, is it any wonder she had her breakdown???

Diana, Mary and Cindy should've worked it out and come to an understanding instead of three women not communicating. What we could've had...

While you make valid points, I don't think it much matters what Diana's value was compared to some of her contemporaries during this time. The issue for some is that Diana's value was always going to be much higher than that of Mary. And rightfully so. Diana had a very successful solo career of mega star proportions. Mary couldn't compete with that.

But if it's the Supremes being booked, pay each member equally. If it's a show where random singers are on stage together, pay Diana what she's worth as a solo, pay Mary what she's worth as a solo. However, regarding RTL, Diana was investing in the tour with her own money. She deserved to reap the rewards for that.

[RanRan79]

Flo said something to the effect that they simply took "People" off at some point and Flo just wasn't given any more leads. And seeing how they were still performing "People" in 1966 [[with Flo leading and Mary taking the place of Diana as co-lead), I'm guessing it was removed for good after the Asian tour. Neither Supreme was good on WHEN "People" stopped being performed and, as mentioned, Diana didn't perform it until the group did the Funny Girl project.

Yeah, I think after a certain amount of time, a lot of those memories, especially when drama is involved, can get tricky. And when the drama is centered around the same reason [[such as "People" being removed, Flo being unhappy about it, etc) particulars like venues and such might get blurry.

[RanRan79]

I really don't think Diana wanted to do the tour with Mary from the beginning. If she really wanted Mary on the tour, she would have been on the tour with the money she wanted. I agree with the stance that the two of them needed to hash shit out BIG TIME before touring together. They both had been harboring feelings for over 30 years by that point. Mary obviously saw this but Diana didn't. Diana chose to continuing to bottle everything up and it blew up in her face.

I think Diana was still holding a grudge on her. Not just from the books but from their issues stemming back to the Supremes days.

I agree that in the beginning Diana probably did not want to do the tour with Mary. And who can blame her? While I still don't think Mary did the hatchet job on Diana that some fans think, there was enough in both of her books that it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to know Diana would be offended and bothered. Diana was over Mary, hence her passage about the end of her Mary's relationship in her book. However, Diana was quick to reach out when Mary's son died. Trust me, when you really cut ties with someone, you may feel sorry that they've experienced a horrible loss, but you don't open the door to that relationship again. Diana opened the lines of communication with Mary, which goes back to my feeling that they saw one another as family, not co-workers or someone she used to be friends with back in the day. It was deeper than that.

That being said, working with Mary again may have seemed like an altogether different issue and I can understand Diana not wanting to do that. Plus, basically Diana would be re-joining the Supremes. I outlined previously the ways in which the pros and cons of groups vs solo works. Diana hadn't been in a group for 30 years and now she was getting ready to get back in one, and one in which the last two people she sang with she also had drama with before she left, and now she's getting ready to sing with them again. Yeah, I can understand her dragging her feet on it.

But, Diana did add money to Mary's offer to "ensure" she was a part of the tour. So regardless of how Diana may have initially felt, she realized she needed Mary and she was willing to pay her out her own pocket to get her to do it.

[1382hitsville]

What a great thread this turns out to be. In a civil way expressing opinions and respecting each other. Thank you, it makes a good read.

We are setting an example for The Supremes.... Ten years ago this thread probably would be deleted and getting members blocked. See, people can learn and grow.

My 2 contribution to this thread:

If Diana and Mary could use one lesson from The Andantes it would be:

"When bad things happen and you can not correct the wrong, let it go rather than lash out"

It was a quote in their book and I'm quoting from memory, but the point is still valid. Grudges go sour. So talk it over or let it go and move on.

And yes, it makes me sad that no coming together after January 14th 1970 worked out. There could be so much made of the greatest and most successful girl group in history.

[RanRan79]

Call me crazy but I really do think Diana was intimidated by Mary [[apparently she nearly had a panic attack when she first saw Mary at Motown: The Musical) and I think she was going all the way back to the 60s. She has said that Mary was the one who always kept her on her toes. There's an interview Diana did in 1975 or so [[I want to say it was Russell Harty) she talks about her relationship with Mary and them going in different directions. And she just has a tone in her voice in that interview where she seems like she's mad at Mary. This was before the books and Motown 25.

I agree to an extent. I think Diana was intimidated by adult, self assured Mary Wilson, who was very different from the Mary she sang with in the 60s. That's why Diana reacted the way she did to Mary [[and Cindy) matching her movements at Motown 25. The old Mary would have "gladly" stood behind Diana, "in her place". New Mary wasn't going to stand behind anybody and I think Diana was shocked and lost it.

Now at RTL, it's about 15 or so years since Motown 25. Mary has only gotten more self assured, more stage confidence, more assertive, and she has a higher visibility with the public than she did before Motown 25. I don't think Diana was all that crazy about dealing with the new Mary on stage. Diana still hadn't lost her need to be the center of attention. Mary would have made sure she didn't get lost in the self centeredness of Diana Ross. I can see where that could have been intimidating to Diana.

[RanRan79]

What a great thread this turns out to be. In a civil way expressing opinions and respecting each other. Thank you, it makes a good read.

We are setting an example for The Supremes.... Ten years ago this thread probably would be deleted and getting members blocked. See, people can learn and grow.

My 2 contribution to this thread:

If Diana and Mary could use one lesson from The Andantes it would be:

"When bad things happen and you can not correct the wrong, let it go rather than lash out"

It was a quote in their book and I'm quoting from memory, but the point is still valid. Grudges go sour. So talk it over or let it go and move on.

And yes, it makes me sad that no coming together after January 14th 1970 worked out. There could be so much made of the greatest and most successful girl group in history.

Well said Hitsville!

[sup_fan]

I agree to an extent. I think Diana was intimidated by adult, self assured Mary Wilson, who was very different from the Mary she sang with in the 60s. That's why Diana reacted the way she did to Mary [[and Cindy) matching her movements at Motown 25. The old Mary would have "gladly" stood behind Diana, "in her place". New Mary wasn't going to stand behind anybody and I think Diana was shocked and lost it.

Now at RTL, it's about 15 or so years since Motown 25. Mary has only gotten more self assured, more stage confidence, more assertive, and she has a higher visibility with the public than she did before Motown 25. I don't think Diana was all that crazy about dealing with the new Mary on stage. Diana still hadn't lost her need to be the center of attention. Mary would have made sure she didn't get lost in the self centeredness of Diana Ross. I can see where that could have been intimidating to Diana.

i think it was less about Diana being intimidated by Mary as an adult performer [[haha not really meaning in that way but was too funny to retype). Diana had attended various 70s Sups shows, was aware of what the group was doing and wishing them the best. and she was right there at Mary's debut in 79.

my guess is that she was gunshy about interacting with Mary. now i'm basing this on Call Her Miss Ross and some of Tony's stories. so i realize there's probably a big grain of salt needed to go along with these. but in the 80s when Mary started to be more confrontational things seemed to do downhill with them. seems this started after motown 25? And i'm not trying to debate whether mary was justified or not. but post M25, suzanne depasse was very put off by an apparent media-blitz mary took. and then she started talking about a book, there was the confrontation backstage when Mary asked Diana to come be interviewed for the book, etc. other stories have them at after parties like at Motown At The Apollo and other events. again i'm not 100% what all mary did or didn't do. But Diana probably wanted to avoid giving her any reason to race off to Entertainment Tonight and start another PR campaign. This all just intensified after the books were published.

[sup_fan]

Well said Hitsville!

agreed! a variety of POVs being shared. it's animated but considerate.

[TNSUN]

Think of this. Mary and Diane were co-workers. The co-workers both leave the company. Both are mothers raising children. One of them writes the "dirty laundry" which she have been "washed away"- meaning all the emotional dirt should have been forgiven.
Being a mother, is the first priority.

Friendship requires protecting the children from any blemish on the mother. Of course, advancing from resentment is a difficult healing process. They were all so young and jolted into stardom.

The Legacy of the Beatles was also supported by the
the solo careers of its founders.

Each of the Beatles continued to refine their musical gifts. Mary and Flo seem to have lacked the career direction advice that was provided to Diana. Flo would have been excellent at pursuing the songs simliar to Sam Cooke's. Mary eventually advanced herself on the ballads. Diana continued to become a mature vocalist. Although, for my taste, her jazz is my favorite musical genre. Thankfully, all her albums have songs which reflect her velvety voice.

To all The Supremes fans who failed to buy RTL Tickets, you missed seeing a great show. The classic Supreme songs, heard collectively in concert, is mesmerizing!
I think smaller arenas would have saved this great show.

There are many other incidents in show business in which negative publicity negated potential ticket sales.

[Boogiedown]

I'm not familiar with acts having to put in their own money to front their own tour .... is this common?

[jobeterob]

What a great thread this turns out to be. In a civil way expressing opinions and respecting each other. Thank you, it makes a good read.

We are setting an example for The Supremes.... Ten years ago this thread probably would be deleted and getting members blocked. See, people can learn and grow.

My 2 contribution to this thread:

If Diana and Mary could use one lesson from The Andantes it would be:

"When bad things happen and you can not correct the wrong, let it go rather than lash out"

It was a quote in their book and I'm quoting from memory, but the point is still valid. Grudges go sour. So talk it over or let it go and move on.

And yes, it makes me sad that no coming together after January 14th 1970 worked out. There could be so much made of the greatest and most successful girl group in history.

Thanks for posting this.

I totally agree; this thread is excellent and has been well handled by all the participants. Well done everyone.

Hitsville, more than anything else you have said, I agree with your final line - there should have been so much more made of the Supremes than these two disastrous reunions attempts and one picture at Motown the Musical. The group has such a history and so many huge smash hits. I'm not sure it will ever be replicated.

Somewhere above, someone said Diana had a very bad reaction to the picture taking at Motown the Musical - I've always thought she looked very uncomfortable in that picture.

[sup_fan]

I'm not familiar with acts having to put in their own money to front their own tour .... is this common?

i'll definitely admit that I'm not familiar with touring contracts. so i'm not sure when payments are made. But there are things that are clearly done prior to the first show - choreography, musical charts, set design, costumes, etc. So i would imagine that if you were a choreographer or a costume designer, you'd want to be paid when your work was completed. not when the tour wrapped.

my understanding is that Diana was to be paid a percentage of the overall. So i'm guessing that the promoters maybe foot these initial bills? then as ticket sales come in, they cover those costs. then there are the costs incurred during the tour - travel, crew, musicians, etc. And finally there's the end profits, out of which Diana would have been paid.

i would guess back in the Sup days, these were all costs handled initially by motown and then as the tour money came in, motown repaid itself and then took their % for management. As Mary took this over in the 70s, my guess is that she/Supremes Inc took that on.

Mary does talk about the costs of bringing in George Holder to redo the act and how he came up with the Dream sequence. She also mentions just updating the act to include new songs and hits. and the amount of money that took too.

[sup_fan]

Thanks for posting this.

I totally agree; this thread is excellent and has been well handled by all the participants. Well done everyone.

Hitsville, more than anything else you have said, I agree with your final line - there should have been so much more made of the Supremes than these two disastrous reunions attempts and one picture at Motown the Musical. The group has such a history and so many huge smash hits. I'm not sure it will ever be replicated.

Somewhere above, someone said Diana had a very bad reaction to the picture taking at Motown the Musical - I've always thought she looked very uncomfortable in that picture.

in 83, Diana was in a troubling spot, as was Mary. Diana had just left motown, was attempting to make it on her own which apparently caused her to be less than always gracious and understanding lol. She wanted to focus on her new relationship with RCA and not praise her old boss. plus the Dreamgirls musical had come out a year or so prior. So all of this "history" and none of it she really had any control or oversight over.

Mary was also in a difficult time. she was embroiled in lawsuits with Berry, i'd imagine quite bitter about her solo career at the time.

quite possible all of these outside pressures and circumstances were what affected each lady's perspective and behavior at Motown 25

What if there hadn't been an attempt at a "reunion" then and what if it occurred at a later date. like 1990. Diana had just returned to motown. it was the 20th anniversary of her farewell. and people were older and wiser. maybe that would have been more positive

[Boogiedown]

SUP:

i'll definitely admit that I'm not familiar with touring contracts. so i'm not sure when payments are made. But there are things that are clearly done prior to the first show - choreography, musical charts, set design, costumes, etc. So i would imagine that if you were a choreographer or a costume designer, you'd want to be paid when your work was completed. not when the tour wrapped.

my understanding is that Diana was to be paid a percentage of the overall. So i'm guessing that the promoters maybe foot these initial bills? then as ticket sales come in, they cover those costs. then there are the costs incurred during the tour - travel, crew, musicians, etc. And finally there's the end profits, out of which Diana would have been paid.

i would guess back in the Sup days, these were all costs handled initially by motown and then as the tour money came in, motown repaid itself and then took their % for management. As Mary took this over in the 70s, my guess is that she/Supremes Inc took that on.

Mary does talk about the costs of bringing in George Holder to redo the act and how he came up with the Dream sequence. She also mentions just updating the act to include new songs and hits. and the amount of money that took too.

aha. when I read about the logistics of touring ... the various costs and overhead , I don't see how so many of them pulled it off...

Didn't I read somewhere up above [maybe by you Sup] that Mary was offered 4 million, two from the promoters and two from Diana Ross herself.

I'm trying to imagine Diana digging into her purse to hand that kind of money [ or any amount really] over to Mary Wilson.
I must've misread that ....?

[sup_fan]

aha. when I read about the logistics of touring ... the various costs and overhead , I don't see how so many of them pulled it off...

Didn't I read somewhere up above [maybe by you Sup] that Mary was offered 4 million, two from the promoters and two from Diana Ross herself.

I'm trying to imagine Diana digging into her purse to hand that kind of money [ or any amount really] over to Mary Wilson.
I must've misread that ....?

you read that right. from what i've read and heard, the promoters offered $2M and then when Mary balked at it, Diana thought "yeah maybe that is low, i'll double it since i want her here" And that quote/thought is what Randy wrote in his book, not my assumption

this is why when mary again refused, Diana was done with her. again according to Randy, that Diana would even consider touring and sharing a stage with mary was a major breakthrough. and then to have Mary be so difficult, Diana was over it.

again i'm not sure if Mary was being totally blocked from the strategic dialogs of the tour. but frankly you can't [[at least not as i'd imagine it) have those discussions UNTIL you've contractually signed onto the tour. yes, D and M could have lunch and talk about some general things of what they wanted to do and all. but none of the details could be sorted out until contracts were done.

Diana has said she kept telling Mary, get things sorted out with the promoters and THEN we'll go into the details. she also said when diana did call her first to talk about this, mary was quite challenging, accusing Diana "why'd it take you so long to call?"

the idea of reuniting wasn't the initial concept at all. it mostly grew out virally. Diana was planning her OWN tour for the new album and the promoters started talking about an expanded Sup section. it's certainly possible the promoters started to drop hints to the press and public, supposedly they were trying to sign Diana to a longer-term deal.

[RanRan79]

i think it was less about Diana being intimidated by Mary as an adult performer [[haha not really meaning in that way but was too funny to retype). Diana had attended various 70s Sups shows, was aware of what the group was doing and wishing them the best. and she was right there at Mary's debut in 79.

my guess is that she was gunshy about interacting with Mary. now i'm basing this on Call Her Miss Ross and some of Tony's stories. so i realize there's probably a big grain of salt needed to go along with these. but in the 80s when Mary started to be more confrontational things seemed to do downhill with them. seems this started after motown 25? And i'm not trying to debate whether mary was justified or not. but post M25, suzanne depasse was very put off by an apparent media-blitz mary took. and then she started talking about a book, there was the confrontation backstage when Mary asked Diana to come be interviewed for the book, etc. other stories have them at after parties like at Motown At The Apollo and other events. again i'm not 100% what all mary did or didn't do. But Diana probably wanted to avoid giving her any reason to race off to Entertainment Tonight and start another PR campaign. This all just intensified after the books were published.

That's what I was referring to. Nobody was going to out "Ross" Diana Ross on stage, but Diana likes having total control of everything. When she and Mary sang together, Berry had total control of everything, and anything Diana didn't like or if she wanted something to be a certain way, she often got her way. So she had some control, even if it was in her head. Mary never had control. Particularly after Florence was fired, Mary had a position to play, and rarely did she step out of it [[like refusing Gordy's offer to work rather than take a vacation) because she didn't want to end up kicked out.

This regrouping of the Supremes would have contained a Mary Wilson that Diana would have no control over. I think that was intimidating to her, to have Mary around doing whatever she wanted and Diana maybe not being in a position to say "now get back to your microphone".

[reese]

aha. when I read about the logistics of touring ... the various costs and overhead , I don't see how so many of them pulled it off...

Didn't I read somewhere up above [maybe by you Sup] that Mary was offered 4 million, two from the promoters and two from Diana Ross herself.

I'm trying to imagine Diana digging into her purse to hand that kind of money [ or any amount really] over to Mary Wilson.
I must've misread that ....?

Diana actually mentioned this during her 20/20 interview with Barbara Walters.

[RanRan79]

you read that right. from what i've read and heard, the promoters offered $2M and then when Mary balked at it, Diana thought "yeah maybe that is low, i'll double it since i want her here" And that quote/thought is what Randy wrote in his book, not my assumption

this is why when mary again refused, Diana was done with her. again according to Randy, that Diana would even consider touring and sharing a stage with mary was a major breakthrough. and then to have Mary be so difficult, Diana was over it.

again i'm not sure if Mary was being totally blocked from the strategic dialogs of the tour. but frankly you can't [[at least not as i'd imagine it) have those discussions UNTIL you've contractually signed onto the tour. yes, D and M could have lunch and talk about some general things of what they wanted to do and all. but none of the details could be sorted out until contracts were done.

Diana has said she kept telling Mary, get things sorted out with the promoters and THEN we'll go into the details. she also said when diana did call her first to talk about this, mary was quite challenging, accusing Diana "why'd it take you so long to call?"

the idea of reuniting wasn't the initial concept at all. it mostly grew out virally. Diana was planning her OWN tour for the new album and the promoters started talking about an expanded Sup section. it's certainly possible the promoters started to drop hints to the press and public, supposedly they were trying to sign Diana to a longer-term deal.

But that's not good business. You don't sign on the dotted line until the details of the contract are worked out. So Mary signs with the promoters and then goes to Diana.

Mary: "Okay Diane, I've signed. So let's talk about how to do this thing. Now I was thinking..."

Diana: "Girl please. Don't nobody give a shit what you've been thinking. Better think about those oohs and ahs while I sing my leads two feet from the edge of the stage and you and Cindy are 80 feet behind a curtain that no one can see."

Now Mary is pissed, feels like she's been tricked into this thing, wants to pull out but she knows she'll be sued by the promoters for breach of contract. No way. You work out the details, put them in the contract and when satisfied, sign the contract. If the first contract sent over isn't to your liking, you send it back and ask for revisions. These are business transactions. Diana's account of the situation makes it a real possibility that Mary was being expected to just show up.

My question is, was Mary handling these negotiations or was she being represented by a lawyer? The way everything has been written it's like Mary was in direct contact with everybody, which seems weird, rather than have her legal people handling this.

[sup_fan]

But that's not good business. You don't sign on the dotted line until the details of the contract are worked out. So Mary signs with the promoters and then goes to Diana.

Mary: "Okay Diane, I've signed. So let's talk about how to do this thing. Now I was thinking..."

Diana: "Girl please. Don't nobody give a shit what you've been thinking. Better think about those oohs and ahs while I sing my leads two feet from the edge of the stage and you and Cindy are 80 feet behind a curtain that no one can see."

Now Mary is pissed, feels like she's been tricked into this thing, wants to pull out but she knows she'll be sued by the promoters for breach of contract. No way. You work out the details, put them in the contract and when satisfied, sign the contract. If the first contract sent over isn't to your liking, you send it back and ask for revisions. These are business transactions. Diana's account of the situation makes it a real possibility that Mary was being expected to just show up.

My question is, was Mary handling these negotiations or was she being represented by a lawyer? The way everything has been written it's like Mary was in direct contact with everybody, which seems weird, rather than have her legal people handling this.

no you'd sign the contract prior to the details. like in the movie business, that's why famous people sometimes end up in piece of shit/trainwreck movies. because they're signing a contract off of a concept or a short summary. but yeah, when they start getting into the meat of it, yikes.

they would have to know who was participating in this tour. the logistics of people traveling, who would be in the choreography and where who stands where, dress sizes, etc. and yes there MIGHT be a risk that had mary signed the deal with all sorts of promises, things might go sideways. i'd assume she might have been able to include some elements of "i have to sing at least 3 lead songs" or something like that.

Diana has never stated that "mary was just to stand there and sing." Randy implies that in his book. mary also never really goes into minute details on it either - as i said earlier a lot of her complaints focused, at least publicly, on the Fairness of things. and that was mostly the fairness of the money.

[RanRan79]

no you'd sign the contract prior to the details. like in the movie business, that's why famous people sometimes end up in piece of shit/trainwreck movies. because they're signing a contract off of a concept or a short summary. but yeah, when they start getting into the meat of it, yikes.

they would have to know who was participating in this tour. the logistics of people traveling, who would be in the choreography and where who stands where, dress sizes, etc. and yes there MIGHT be a risk that had mary signed the deal with all sorts of promises, things might go sideways. i'd assume she might have been able to include some elements of "i have to sing at least 3 lead songs" or something like that.

Diana has never stated that "mary was just to stand there and sing." Randy implies that in his book. mary also never really goes into minute details on it either - as i said earlier a lot of her complaints focused, at least publicly, on the Fairness of things. and that was mostly the fairness of the money.

Sup, nobody in their right mind signs a contract without ironing out the details of said contract! Lol That's horrible business advice. "Just sign the contract and we'll work out the details later"...uh, no! Lol Please never do that. Never, ever do that!

Yes, actors sign movie contracts and end up in piece of crap films, but trust that they didn't just sign on to be in a movie. They were given a script and the option to do the film. Now because of all the different elements that go into making a movie, the film can end up crappier than the script implied, true. And movie contracts are negotiated all the time, like every other contract. So the idea that Mary should have just signed and waited for Diana to allow her some input, I can see where Mary would be hesitant to trust that the tour wouldn't end up a DRATS show from 1968.

All parties of a contract have to be comfortable with the contract. The promoters, Diana, Mary, none of them were more important than the other. They all had to be good with the details, not just the promoters and Diana.

[jobeterob]

My memory from way back is that key people in the Promoter didn’t know who Mary Wilson was - which is probably why Diana topped up the money.

I also believe they did some polling and Cindy Birdsong was recognized more than Mary Wilson - likely because of the name.

So many things were at odds in all of this - it’s no wonder it didn’t work out

[bradsupremes]

again i'm not sure if Mary was being totally blocked from the strategic dialogs of the tour. but frankly you can't [[at least not as i'd imagine it) have those discussions UNTIL you've contractually signed onto the tour. yes, D and M could have lunch and talk about some general things of what they wanted to do and all. but none of the details could be sorted out until contracts were done.

Diana has said she kept telling Mary, get things sorted out with the promoters and THEN we'll go into the details. she also said when diana did call her first to talk about this, mary was quite challenging, accusing Diana "why'd it take you so long to call?".

The conversation Mary wanted to have with Diana wasnÂ’t about the details and tour logistics but rather making sure the air was clear between the two of them. A contract didnÂ’t need to be signed for that conversation to happen as it really wasnÂ’t about the tour, but the two of them.

When Diana called Mary in December 1999 and Mary wasn’t so nice when she answered, rumors of this tour had been circulating since the summer. Mary had heard about this possible reunion for several months, was repeatedly asked about it, but didn’t know anything as she hadn’t been contacted by Diana or the promoters. When things were finally getting set into motion that’s when she was approached by the promoters first. Upset Diana hadn’t reached out to her that’s when the promoters told Diana to call her thus the “What took you so long to call?” response.

There are other details about this tour that still havenÂ’t come out. IÂ’m not the person to discuss them so IÂ’ll refrain, but I will say that it explains Mary actions/reactions and why she was so upset.

[Ollie9]

The conversation Mary wanted to have with Diana wasnÂ’t about the details and tour logistics but rather making sure the air was clear between the two of them. A contract didnÂ’t need to be signed for that conversation to happen as it really wasnÂ’t about the tour, but the two of them.

When Diana called Mary in December 1999 and Mary wasn’t so nice when she answered, rumors of this tour had been circulating since the summer. Mary had heard about this possible reunion for several months, was repeatedly asked about it, but didn’t know anything as she hadn’t been contacted by Diana or the promoters. When things were finally getting set into motion that’s when she was approached by the promoters first. Upset Diana hadn’t reached out to her that’s when the promoters told Diana to call her thus the “What took you so long to call?” response.

There are other details about this tour that still havenÂ’t come out. IÂ’m not the person to discuss them so IÂ’ll refrain, but I will say that it explains Mary actions/reactions and why she was so upset.

No matter how fans try to dress it up, this was the major error on Diana’s part. Wasn’t it also said she was reluctant to call Mary at all, proffering if possible to leave it entirely to the promoters.
Unlike Mary, Diana has never been sentimental regarding the Supremes, so the focus was entirely on money and profit. Sometimes a personal touch is needed to keep the wheels of business running smoothly, something i can personally attain to.
If applied, that train might have left the station with all accounted for.

[sup_fan]

Sup, nobody in their right mind signs a contract without ironing out the details of said contract! Lol That's horrible business advice. "Just sign the contract and we'll work out the details later"...uh, no! Lol Please never do that. Never, ever do that!

Yes, actors sign movie contracts and end up in piece of crap films, but trust that they didn't just sign on to be in a movie. They were given a script and the option to do the film. Now because of all the different elements that go into making a movie, the film can end up crappier than the script implied, true. And movie contracts are negotiated all the time, like every other contract. So the idea that Mary should have just signed and waited for Diana to allow her some input, I can see where Mary would be hesitant to trust that the tour wouldn't end up a DRATS show from 1968.

All parties of a contract have to be comfortable with the contract. The promoters, Diana, Mary, none of them were more important than the other. They all had to be good with the details, not just the promoters and Diana.

the show would be nowhere near complete or fully fleshed out prior to the contracts with the promoters signs. the promoters themselves aren't necessarily worrying about if they open with REflection or Come See About Me. they don't care about the staging of numbers or the order in which the songs are sung. none of that would be finalized until much closer to the actual go-live date.

again i don't personally know or have read the contracts. but it would be a general contract that outlining the dates and cities, legalese stuff, salary, whatever other financial obligations there are, etc. It wouldn't specify "Mary you'll sing these two leads, and dance here and here's your script for your speaking parts."

[RanRan79]

My memory from way back is that key people in the Promoter didn’t know who Mary Wilson was - which is probably why Diana topped up the money.

I also believe they did some polling and Cindy Birdsong was recognized more than Mary Wilson - likely because of the name.

So many things were at odds in all of this - it’s no wonder it didn’t work out

The promoters came up with the Supremes reunion concept. There's no way they didn't know who each Supreme was, especially Mary. Not buying that.

[RanRan79]

The conversation Mary wanted to have with Diana wasnÂ’t about the details and tour logistics but rather making sure the air was clear between the two of them. A contract didnÂ’t need to be signed for that conversation to happen as it really wasnÂ’t about the tour, but the two of them.

When Diana called Mary in December 1999 and Mary wasn’t so nice when she answered, rumors of this tour had been circulating since the summer. Mary had heard about this possible reunion for several months, was repeatedly asked about it, but didn’t know anything as she hadn’t been contacted by Diana or the promoters. When things were finally getting set into motion that’s when she was approached by the promoters first. Upset Diana hadn’t reached out to her that’s when the promoters told Diana to call her thus the “What took you so long to call?” response.

There are other details about this tour that still havenÂ’t come out. IÂ’m not the person to discuss them so IÂ’ll refrain, but I will say that it explains Mary actions/reactions and why she was so upset.

This explains a lot regarding Diana's account of Mary's tone when she called.

Diana really appears to have not wanted to deal with Mary at all, which is a shame because had the two of them sat down, Diana could have said everything she needed to say to Mary's face about how she felt regarding the books, the interviews, or anything else that had pissed her off over the years. Likewise, it would have given Mary the opportunity to say to Diana's face everything she felt about her. This would have given them the chance to explain themselves with each accusation. It could have given each woman insight into how the other thought and felt, and how the other's actions impacted her. And with Diana really in a low place because of her marital issues and such, and Mary undoubtedly was still in a place of heartbreak regarding the death of her son, coming together for this reunion could have been something each woman really needed and could have taken them into a new phase of relationship.

But I think at the end of the day, Diana didn't want to be confronted with Mary's feelings about the past. She might as well have just said "Mary, I don't care how you feel. Deal with it and get over it." There's nothing worse than having someone be dismissive of your feelings. Diana's desire to avoid talking about "the heart" [[as she once described it) probably resulted in the additional trouble and drama of the situation.

[RanRan79]

No matter how fans try to dress it up, this was the major error on Diana’s part. Wasn’t it also said she was reluctant to call Mary at all, proffering if possible to leave it entirely to the promoters.
Unlike Mary, Diana has never been sentimental regarding the Supremes, so the focus was entirely on money and profit. Sometimes a personal touch is needed to keep the wheels of business running smoothly, something i can personally attain to.
If applied, that train might have left the station with all accounted for.

Yup, agreed.

[BayouMotownMan]

Hindsight is 20/20 as they always say. IMHO Mary should have accepted the $1 million offer. As the tour progressed and the crowds increased, THEN she should have demanded more to continue. Probably would have gotten it despite bad feelings with Ross which were going to be there anyway.

[RanRan79]

the show would be nowhere near complete or fully fleshed out prior to the contracts with the promoters signs. the promoters themselves aren't necessarily worrying about if they open with REflection or Come See About Me. they don't care about the staging of numbers or the order in which the songs are sung. none of that would be finalized until much closer to the actual go-live date.

again i don't personally know or have read the contracts. but it would be a general contract that outlining the dates and cities, legalese stuff, salary, whatever other financial obligations there are, etc. It wouldn't specify "Mary you'll sing these two leads, and dance here and here's your script for your speaking parts."

You're right, but the expectations of all involved have to be ironed out before anyone signs on. That could be money or anything. Yes, Mary could have held out on the contract until it was agreed in the contract that she would have at least a certain amount of leads, as an example. No one expects the contract to talk about gowns and staging. The contract will consist of what the promoters expect from Mary. Likewise, it would consist of what the promoters would be obligated to do for Mary. This is a contract like any other contract. If RanRan79 wants Supfan to do a job, the contract drawn up will have my expectations for you, as well as your expectations from me. If you ever sign a contract where only one person in the contract is guaranteed something, you've just made a terrible, terrible mistake.

[RanRan79]

Hindsight is 20/20 as they always say. IMHO Mary should have accepted the $1 million offer. As the tour progressed and the crowds increased, THEN she should have demanded more to continue. Probably would have gotten it despite bad feelings with Ross which were going to be there anyway.

Ah yes, "Mary take the mill and then demand more in the middle of the tour. Don't worry about the breach of contract suit that's sure to come and will cost you ten times that million in legal fees."

Oh Bayou.

[midnightman]

I was always confused about the fact that Diana was putting up her own money to make the tour work. Whoever her manager was at the time probably didn't wanna ruffle feathers suggesting Diana hire someone to look after touring contracts. That's likely why things got on the wrong foot in the first place especially as far as Mary's situation goes.

[midnightman]

My memory from way back is that key people in the Promoter didn’t know who Mary Wilson was - which is probably why Diana topped up the money.

I also believe they did some polling and Cindy Birdsong was recognized more than Mary Wilson - likely because of the name.

So many things were at odds in all of this - it’s no wonder it didn’t work out

The Supremes were a world famous act at one point with Diana, Mary, Florence and Cindy. I don't buy that.