Revisiting Return to Love - the Promoters Tried to Tie Diana Down for 5 Years

[jim aka jtigre99]

Certainly from the standpoint of continuity it would have been good for Cindy to remain a Supreme. Visually, the MSC grouping had the most glamour and there beauty complimented each other quite nicely. Vocally, their blend and harmony was simply beautiful. Mary even stated that there were no huge egos with this trio and it was perhaps the nicest. That said, the addition of Susaye added a fresh element going forward into the disco era. Her vocal ad libs added to IGLMHDTW really helped to make the song stand out, although the harmonies were MSC, since they recorded High Energy before Susaye was added.
Visually, MSS just did not look right and for some reason the choreography seemed off which was strange since both Mary and Scherrie were the best at choreography. During MSC, you could see Cindy occasionally missing cues and looking disinterested [[I think Early Morning Love on Soul Train where she didn't lip sync and seemed to stare ahead disinterested). Susaye was adlibbing on songs so perhaps the choreography was amended for that reason yet they never seemed to gel on TV like they did on recordings.
Still, I don't think Motown would have put forth any more effort in the group had Cindy stayed. Somehow, though, the combination of Mary and Cindy [[even though not an original) really seemed to work and Supremes no matter if they were with Diana, Jean or Scherrie.

[daviddh]

In retrospect, I think most of the supremes albums were solid.
I liked the last three
Only the JW album was a mess .....a few good tracks,
I keep it hid
When can brown begin

Maybe a different mix

[jobeterob]

I’m not sure NWBLS stands up that well and the Four Tops albums should have been reduced to one album

I don’t know what happened with MSS because it did so poorly

They shouldn’t have released Touch as a single

But likely all of the above wouldn’t have changed the trajectory for the group

A successful reunion in the 80’s might have done it

[telekin]

Certainly from the standpoint of continuity it would have been good for Cindy to remain a Supreme. Visually, the MSC grouping had the most glamour and there beauty complimented each other quite nicely. Vocally, their blend and harmony was simply beautiful. Mary even stated that there were no huge egos with this trio and it was perhaps the nicest. That said, the addition of Susaye added a fresh element going forward into the disco era. Her vocal ad libs added to IGLMHDTW really helped to make the song stand out, although the harmonies were MSC, since they recorded High Energy before Susaye was added.

[...]

I don't think Motown would have put forth any more effort in the group had Cindy stayed. Somehow, though, the combination of Mary and Cindy [[even though not an original) really seemed to work and Supremes no matter if they were with Diana, Jean or Scherrie.

I agree with your points here. Even if she wasn't an original, next to Mary, I feel like Cindy was the second-most important member of The Supremes in terms of giving the group a sense of stability and continuity.

As much as I love what Susaye brought to the group in terms of her vocals, the lineups without Cindy were generally less stable, more short-lived. I think one of those asides that Mary sometimes told in their shows about Cindy - "girl, you're happy to be anywhere!" said a lot in terms of Cindy's personality.

I do think that by the mid-70s, Motown was not particularly thrilled with Cindy back in the group, and made their position known privately and overtly - notice how she's airbrushed beyond recognition on Supremes '75 for instance.

If, indeed, like Mary intimated, that their mid 70s contract carried over much of their original contract, Motown likely retained the power to hire and fire members at will. And it seemed they were letting it be known that if things didn't change with Cindy, they were going to pull the trigger if Mary & Pedro didn't. Just my reading of things, coming from Mary in Supreme Faith and from other posters here.

[TheMotownManiac]

As long as swallowing pride doesn't become allowing someone to disrespect you and your position. By the time of RTL, Mary was much too old to be screwed over and have someone leave the money on the nightstand.

I don’t think diana thought of it that way, and I don’t think she meant it to seem that way. She was coming from the position that this was a solo tour of hers that was including a Supreme segment. The segment grew into much more than a segment, but I can see where in diana‘s mind this was still basically her show. And I’ve always felt that she dreaded having discussions with Mary. I can see where diana may have felt that until everyone was signed, there was no need to talk to Mary until I was a for sure thing.
And, Mary did accept the money on the nightstand.

iÂ’m not defending diana, nor attacking Mary, Just, offering some perspectives.

I think things wouldÂ’ve gone a lot differently if Mary had kept her negotiations for money, private as most do. ItÂ’s clear that diana wanted her on the show because she was adding her own money to the promoters offer. turning the deal into a circus may or may not have had an effect on the offer, but I think we can assume it most certainly destroyed any shreds of goodwill that diana mightÂ’ve been clinging to, in order to consider this tour at all. The bottom line is that, I think diana wouldÂ’ve given in to make the 4000,000 happen if it was done privately because she wanted it to happen. But with her temper, the lies that Mary was telling the press about the negotiations, and the bad blood of the previous 15 years, pushed diana into the fury mode, resulting in her, looking at Mary like a deal performing monitor at Wembley. If all the mudslinging had not been done in the press, itÂ’s quite likely the tour wouldÂ’ve worked with Diana, Mary and Cindy. I remember thinking back at the time how awkward it would be for them at this point to start working together after all the vitriol.

definitely a publicist nightmare.

If only diana had called Mary and said, “hi Mary, it’s Diane. Listen, we’ve been planning my promotional tour for the new album and evidently there’s been a lot of interest in aSupremes reunion. I don’t know how you feel about this, but the promoters feel very strongly it would be at success, if we added a Supremes reunion segment to the show and I was wondering if you were interested. “How difficult would that have been? if Mary accepted, diana could’ve ended the call with “all right. Let me speak to the promoters and see how they want to handle this and I’ll get back to you when everything is set.” They could’ve exchanged pleasantries for a few moments and the whole thing could’ve been over in three or four minutes. If blame to be assigned, there’s plenty to go around.

[Ollie9]

If only diana had called Mary and said, “hi Mary, it’s Diane. Listen, we’ve been planning my promotional tour for the new album and evidently there’s been a lot of interest in aSupremes reunion. I don’t know how you feel about this, but the promoters feel very strongly it would be at success, if we added a Supremes reunion segment to the show and I was wondering if you were interested. “How difficult would that have been? if Mary accepted, diana could’ve ended the call with “all right. Let me speak to the promoters and see how they want to handle this and I’ll get back to you when everything is set.” They could’ve exchanged pleasantries for a few moments and the whole thing could’ve been over in three or four minutes. If blame to be assigned, there’s plenty to go around.

I very much agree. Just one little courtesy call from Diana might have changed everything.

[Boogiedown]

Yes Skip the niceties, and any phony “Ive missed you”, Diane could’ve called and set the stage with , “ Listen girl, if we play this right, we could make A LOT of money $$$….. “

[TheMotownManiac]

Yes Skip the niceties, and any phony “Ive missed you”, Diane could’ve called and set the stage with , “ Listen girl, if we play this right, we could make A LOT of money $$$….. “

you are right and so is a Ollie. But remember, she wasn’t calling a girlfriend. She was calling someone who had trashed her in books, magazines, television, and radio for five solid years. someone that didn’t bother to just stick with the facts. That phone call isn’t so easy to make. At least it wouldn’t be for me.
Mary had to be wondering what diana was thinking and nothing was stopping Mary from calling diana and saying, “girl I hear that there is talk about her reunion. I know you’re angry with me I understand why. And I’m sorry for going to some of the places I went to. Is there anyway for us to put this behind us or push it aside so that we could work together for this tour quote?

The problems with RTL did not begin in 1999, but at least 15 years prior. Mary has a great soundbite with saying ?all Diane had to do was give her a call. But the roots of this angst are much deeper than that. Oh, and I believe she probably was afraid that Mary would turn his tour into another book. and she was practically correct. The minute negotiations weren’t going the way Mary wanted them to, she went to the press and started to get ugly. And then Mary started spouting off about the $20 million and the fake reunion tour when it was not called a reunion tour And they made a point of saying it was not a reunion tour and the $20 million wasn’t true, what’s Diana to think but that it’s starting all over again, and I think that’s when the train left the station.

maybe if diana I had sent an NDA to Mary to sign before they spoke, she would’ve felt differently. I wonder if Mary would’ve signed it.

[Boogiedown]

Interesting stuff .
As for reaching out , the ball was really in Diana’s court wasn’t it ? It was she seeking out Mary to join in on her scheme of a tour not the other way around. I don’t follow what’s ugly about Mary explaining the unfairness of what was being offered to her and why she was therefore trying to negotiate the terms .
That Diana was ok with appearing with Supremes that she never had anything to do with, says a whole lot, not the least of which is how little her intentions here had to do with a nostalgic desire to try and recapture anything meaningful for herself or the fans and when it came to having anyones back in this deal, the only one she cared about was her own. The “any of them will do “ Supremes were just a tacked-on angle that was conceded to by Diana as a means to hype a more alluring tour package that her promoters would get behind .

[what are “some of the places” that Mary went to that she should have to apologize for ?? ]

[RanRan79]

the combination of Mary and Cindy [[even though not an original) really seemed to work and Supremes no matter if they were with Diana, Jean or Scherrie.

I agree. Cindy ultimately ended up being the perfect choice to replace Florence. She didn't bring to the group any of the things Florence did, but what Cindy possessed ended up being a perfect fit. Her blend with Mary was great. Flo and Mary were capable of packing quite a punch vocally as a duo. This wasn't in the wheelhouse of Mary and Cindy as a duo, which is why I feel on some of the singles, I'm not convinced Mary and Cindy's sound would have worked. [[I can't hear them giving "Love Child" the oomph that the Andantes gave, or the gospel sound the- insert about a dozen names in addition to the Waters- gave on "Someday We'll Be Together".) But on the MOR stuff, Mary and Cindy sounded divine. Even on some of the pop and R&B tunes they were allowed to sing on, they had a nice sound. And surprisingly, when Diana joined them for harmony, it was heavenly.

It also didn't hurt that Cindy seems to have had an affable way about herself. She preferred to keep the peace and just have a good time. Mary was a similar type of person before the pressures of the group dynamics became overwhelming, and I think their similar personalities allowed Mary and Cindy to bond very well and it translated to the music.

[RanRan79]

In retrospect, I think most of the supremes albums were solid.
I liked the last three
Only the JW album was a mess .....a few good tracks,
I keep it hid
When can brown begin

Maybe a different mix

I agree. The JW album is the only one that is hard to find much appealing about it. While I feel like the last two duet albums were totally unnecessary, I don't think they were bad albums either. Right On, New Ways, Touch, Floy Joy, Supremes 75, High Energy, MSS, I wouldn't describe any of these albums as bad. In fact, personally I describe them all from good to great.

[RanRan79]

And, Mary did accept the money on the nightstand.

No she didn't. I said she was too old to be screwed over and accept the money. She wasn't screwed over. She didn't sign on to a tour and do as she was told to "just show up" and then proceed to be treated as a less than regarding the group she helped found. The nightstand analogy wasn't about simply accepting the money. It was about what would be done to her in order to accept it and I don't believe Mary Wilson of 1999/2000 would be willing to be disrespected so she could add money to her bank account.

[RanRan79]

I very much agree. Just one little courtesy call from Diana might have changed everything.

The biggest change would really have only happened if Diana had called and suggested they get together to sort some stuff out. Decades worth of issues were going to hang over their heads no matter the circumstance until they talked it out. A courtesy call wasn't going to change that.

[RanRan79]

you are right and so is a Ollie. But remember, she wasn’t calling a girlfriend. She was calling someone who had trashed her in books, magazines, television, and radio for five solid years. someone that didn’t bother to just stick with the facts. That phone call isn’t so easy to make. At least it wouldn’t be for me.
Mary had to be wondering what diana was thinking and nothing was stopping Mary from calling diana and saying, “girl I hear that there is talk about her reunion. I know you’re angry with me I understand why. And I’m sorry for going to some of the places I went to. Is there anyway for us to put this behind us or push it aside so that we could work together for this tour quote?

The problems with RTL did not begin in 1999, but at least 15 years prior. Mary has a great soundbite with saying ?all Diane had to do was give her a call. But the roots of this angst are much deeper than that. Oh, and I believe she probably was afraid that Mary would turn his tour into another book. and she was practically correct. The minute negotiations weren’t going the way Mary wanted them to, she went to the press and started to get ugly. And then Mary started spouting off about the $20 million and the fake reunion tour when it was not called a reunion tour And they made a point of saying it was not a reunion tour and the $20 million wasn’t true, what’s Diana to think but that it’s starting all over again, and I think that’s when the train left the station.

maybe if diana I had sent an NDA to Mary to sign before they spoke, she would’ve felt differently. I wonder if Mary would’ve signed it.

I'll take Mary's "facts" over anyone who wasn't present for any of the stuff Mary spoke about. Her relationship with Diana Ross was always going to be told from her perspective, just like Diana would talk about it from her POV. Only they know what was fact, fiction, or simply a matter of perspective.

Why should Mary have called Diana up to apologize? If half the things in either of Mary's books were true about Diana in relationship to Mary, and Mary obviously carried issues about it all those years, why didn't Diana reach out and say "I really hate that you felt you had to write books about me or tell any of my personal business or air any of our negative relationship history, but I recognize some of the things I said and did hurt you deeply and I'm sorry."

Yes, between the two of them, there was a lot of blame to go around. They hurt each other and a lot of that hurt was because they loved each other. But all this "Mary should have gotten on her knees and kissed Diana's feet" stuff [[I know that's not what you said, but IMO that's the spirit of what you said) doesn't make sense to me. Diana never, ever apologized for anything she said or did that left people hurt and bothered by her antics. Why did Mary have to be any different? [[And yes, I recognize that I don't know for a fact that Diana never apologized to anyone, but I'm drawing a conclusion based on the absence of further information.)

[gman]

Even if the company thought the later Terrell stuff lackluster.....how could they sleep through the arrival of Scherrie Payne?

With a very recognizable Cindy returning, Mary continuing with greater ability as a leader with confidence and the arrival of Scherrie....someone new who is so gorgeous, so capable and gave off sparks and new energy that no one had to strain to notice....you delay a intro single and LP for 2 years????....the Sonny and Cher show was pretty popular...it was prime time....not afternoon or late night... a great start for a newly reformed trio...why wasn't there product in the stores and given to DJ's to boost the act? also, if I remember correctly, Cher usually performed something with the guests...and a bit of dialogue introducing the group members would have been nice too....maybe it was punishment for the JML trio speculating leaving and lamenting their unhappiness in the press?

[jim aka jtigre99]

As far as Mary's books, they were over a decade in the past. Diana did call Mary, but waited until the Holidays and when Mary was getting ready for a tour in England. As far as the books, they must have been true or Mary would have been sued and we all know Mary put the sue in Supremes. In her books, Mary didn't spare herself and told the story-albeit from her point of view. For Diana to consider Mary for the tour, she understood her significance but thought Mary would just be with her like she was during Flo's problems and launching her solo career during DRATS. Had they actually sat down and talked and planned things, maybe the results would have been better but who knows?
I also agree about Scherrie, she provided a spark that made me so hopeful about the group and with Mary finally starting to come forward as well the group had so much possibility. I don't know if it was JML or that they were just over the group but they did take an unusually long time to sign the group and record them. It was just another missed opportunity by Motown.
This is all water under the bridge now, Flo has long passed, Mary has passed on and Cindy is quite unwell. Scherrie & Susaye perform as the FLOS but not with much regularity. Jean and Lynda are basically retired. Diana Ross also still performs.

[sup_fan]

you are right and so is a Ollie. But remember, she wasn’t calling a girlfriend. She was calling someone who had trashed her in books, magazines, television, and radio for five solid years. someone that didn’t bother to just stick with the facts. That phone call isn’t so easy to make. At least it wouldn’t be for me.
Mary had to be wondering what diana was thinking and nothing was stopping Mary from calling diana and saying, “girl I hear that there is talk about her reunion. I know you’re angry with me I understand why. And I’m sorry for going to some of the places I went to. Is there anyway for us to put this behind us or push it aside so that we could work together for this tour quote?

The problems with RTL did not begin in 1999, but at least 15 years prior. Mary has a great soundbite with saying ?all Diane had to do was give her a call. But the roots of this angst are much deeper than that. Oh, and I believe she probably was afraid that Mary would turn his tour into another book. and she was practically correct. The minute negotiations weren’t going the way Mary wanted them to, she went to the press and started to get ugly. And then Mary started spouting off about the $20 million and the fake reunion tour when it was not called a reunion tour And they made a point of saying it was not a reunion tour and the $20 million wasn’t true, what’s Diana to think but that it’s starting all over again, and I think that’s when the train left the station.

maybe if diana I had sent an NDA to Mary to sign before they spoke, she would’ve felt differently. I wonder if Mary would’ve signed it.

frankly i've wondered if mary sat down and did the calculations - Option 1: play nice, do the Sup reunion, get some publicity and press. Option 2: kick and scream, get a bunch of solo spots on tv talk shows complaining, generate buzz about the name Mary Wilson

You're also right about the years of bad blood. Mary had essentially been selling the story of the Diana Monster since the mid 80s. it had died down a little by the later 90s but generally she was still doing this. But still talking about "her sisters Diane and Flo"

[sup_fan]

I agree. Cindy ultimately ended up being the perfect choice to replace Florence. She didn't bring to the group any of the things Florence did, but what Cindy possessed ended up being a perfect fit. Her blend with Mary was great. Flo and Mary were capable of packing quite a punch vocally as a duo. This wasn't in the wheelhouse of Mary and Cindy as a duo, which is why I feel on some of the singles, I'm not convinced Mary and Cindy's sound would have worked. [[I can't hear them giving "Love Child" the oomph that the Andantes gave, or the gospel sound the- insert about a dozen names in addition to the Waters- gave on "Someday We'll Be Together".) But on the MOR stuff, Mary and Cindy sounded divine. Even on some of the pop and R&B tunes they were allowed to sing on, they had a nice sound. And surprisingly, when Diana joined them for harmony, it was heavenly.

It also didn't hurt that Cindy seems to have had an affable way about herself. She preferred to keep the peace and just have a good time. Mary was a similar type of person before the pressures of the group dynamics became overwhelming, and I think their similar personalities allowed Mary and Cindy to bond very well and it translated to the music.

i agree - M and C were just about 2 of the best and most perfect backing singers for a lead. they really blended wonderfully.

i think one of the reasons the JMC lineup seemed IMO to work even better vocally than the DMC lineup was because Jean was a stronger 1st soprano than either Diana or Cindy, both of whom are lower 2nd sopranos. This allowed Cindy to still to the lower, middle note and Jean take the top soprano note. like in Stoned Love at 2:33 on the big "ooo" after "I pray for peace and love Amen." That's Jean on the upper note. and like Ran's comment about LC and the As, none of the DRATS could really have done that heavy strong high soprano work. but jean could

[RanRan79]

Even if the company thought the later Terrell stuff lackluster.....how could they sleep through the arrival of Scherrie Payne?

With a very recognizable Cindy returning, Mary continuing with greater ability as a leader with confidence and the arrival of Scherrie....someone new who is so gorgeous, so capable and gave off sparks and new energy that no one had to strain to notice....you delay a intro single and LP for 2 years????....the Sonny and Cher show was pretty popular...it was prime time....not afternoon or late night... a great start for a newly reformed trio...why wasn't there product in the stores and given to DJ's to boost the act? also, if I remember correctly, Cher usually performed something with the guests...and a bit of dialogue introducing the group members would have been nice too....maybe it was punishment for the JML trio speculating leaving and lamenting their unhappiness in the press?

Motown just wasn't in the business of being about the business of the music. The label had already failed the expectations of the group with Jean and Lynda. Why Mary thought things would be different with a new grouping is mind boggling. I do think Motown resigned the group because it did hope to be able to make money, and they likely saw Scherrie as the main reason why. My guess is between the label having other priorities, whoever was managing MCS at that early point, and Mary trying to hold everything together, there just wasn't a lot of competency.

For my POV, the fact that the label didn't pull out ALL the stops to make the Mary, Jean and Lynda grouping the hottest female act in the game at the time is more screwy than them not pushing the Scherrie grouping. JML had a sound and look that was ripe- RIPE- for that time period. They were a little sophisticated, a little funky, gorgeous, glamorous in a hip way [[when they weren't parading around in old DRATS costumes), had a beautiful sound. But they were allowed to waste their talents on a collection of Jimmy Webb songs and then not allowed [[whatever the reason, the label or Stevie) to complete the Stevie produced album. What a waste.

[sup_fan]

I think the issue with Mary's books is that they're extremely lopsided. of course she's telling it from her POV and what person wants to trash themselves? so i get it.

she wrote the first one and there was no guarantee that she'd do Book 2. they weren't even with the same publishing company. in Dreamgirl, she lists pretty much every possible slight and offense that Diana could ever have done and yet never lists anything of what Diana really did well. Gil has mentioned how BOTH diana and mary were really trying to save Flo, especially once Berry was starting to see the writing on the wall. Diana suggested mary sing lead on Falling in Love, Diana tried to get berry to add Manhattan to the R&H lp. Mary was also very much inline with the company strategy to replace Flo. yet in the book, it really comes across almost like D and B maliciously plotting against Flo.

and since there was NO promise of Book 2, for Mary to list all of these grievances with Diana and not make 1 mention of Diana loading her much needed money, is really quite terrible and underhanded.

in Sup Faith, Mary paints that picture of pretty much every 70s Sup ganging up against her and causing problems. sorry but that's a bit too hard to believe. the common element there is Mary - yet she never acknowledges the mistakes she made which led to the demise of the group. of how she was also a source of the conflict with jean. not that jean wasn't a VERY strong willed woman and difficult. but mary was as much to blame there too.

[RanRan79]

As far as Mary's books, they were over a decade in the past. Diana did call Mary, but waited until the Holidays and when Mary was getting ready for a tour in England. As far as the books, they must have been true or Mary would have been sued and we all know Mary put the sue in Supremes. In her books, Mary didn't spare herself and told the story-albeit from her point of view. For Diana to consider Mary for the tour, she understood her significance but thought Mary would just be with her like she was during Flo's problems and launching her solo career during DRATS. Had they actually sat down and talked and planned things, maybe the results would have been better but who knows?
I also agree about Scherrie, she provided a spark that made me so hopeful about the group and with Mary finally starting to come forward as well the group had so much possibility. I don't know if it was JML or that they were just over the group but they did take an unusually long time to sign the group and record them. It was just another missed opportunity by Motown.
This is all water under the bridge now, Flo has long passed, Mary has passed on and Cindy is quite unwell. Scherrie & Susaye perform as the FLOS but not with much regularity. Jean and Lynda are basically retired. Diana Ross also still performs.

There were things in Mary's books that have since been debunked. She [[or her ghostwriter) definitely played up things for drama, like "People" being taken from Flo and given to Diana. There's no evidence Diana ever sang the song as a lead until the Funny Girl sessions. There are some other things like that in the books. But the idea that the books were two big liar, liar, pants on fire novels about Diana Ross is just not the way I see it. I still feel like if Mary really wanted to be nasty, she could have gone much lower. But between her recollections of the relationship breakdown between herself and Diana, and then Flo's recollections of the relationship breakdown between she and Diana, I'll just put it this way: both of them aren't lying about everything. Diana had moments where she was a real disrespectful pain in the ass. And guess what: that's the case for all of us. We all have our moments. Florence got to the point where she was willing to forgive and move on. And because Diana had her own issues with Flo- because yes, Flo could be a pain in the ass- Diana was willing to do the same. I really feel like Mary was so bothered by what happened at Motown 25 that anything she may have been able to let live in the past just stirred up and resulted in a book where Mary wrote about the less desirable side of Diana, as well as revealed some of Diana's personal business.

Communication could have gone a long way to curing what ailed Mary and Diana, but they just seemed to have a problem doing it productively.

[RanRan79]

frankly i've wondered if mary sat down and did the calculations - Option 1: play nice, do the Sup reunion, get some publicity and press. Option 2: kick and scream, get a bunch of solo spots on tv talk shows complaining, generate buzz about the name Mary Wilson

You're also right about the years of bad blood. Mary had essentially been selling the story of the Diana Monster since the mid 80s. it had died down a little by the later 90s but generally she was still doing this. But still talking about "her sisters Diane and Flo"

I think Mary was savvy enough to have calculated those options. Option 1 wasn't going to fly because she wasn't going to play nice if no one else was playing nice, and from her POV from the start it appeared there wasn't going to be nice play for anyone. I've said in the forum before that once it was clear that the reunion wouldn't happen, Mary went for option 2. No doubt in my mind she saw how "victim" Mary might be more lucrative than my earlier suggestion that she simply release a statement that negotiations broke down or a very vague she is unable to participate at this time but she wishes the girls luck and they'll have the opportunity to reunite again.

I think Diana "the monster" is a bit too far. It's not like Mary was running around saying Diana eats children or something.

[sup_fan]

Motown just wasn't in the business of being about the business of the music. The label had already failed the expectations of the group with Jean and Lynda. Why Mary thought things would be different with a new grouping is mind boggling. I do think Motown resigned the group because it did hope to be able to make money, and they likely saw Scherrie as the main reason why. My guess is between the label having other priorities, whoever was managing MCS at that early point, and Mary trying to hold everything together, there just wasn't a lot of competency.

For my POV, the fact that the label didn't pull out ALL the stops to make the Mary, Jean and Lynda grouping the hottest female act in the game at the time is more screwy than them not pushing the Scherrie grouping. JML had a sound and look that was ripe- RIPE- for that time period. They were a little sophisticated, a little funky, gorgeous, glamorous in a hip way [[when they weren't parading around in old DRATS costumes), had a beautiful sound. But they were allowed to waste their talents on a collection of Jimmy Webb songs and then not allowed [[whatever the reason, the label or Stevie) to complete the Stevie produced album. What a waste.

my guess on why the MJL lineup never "clicked" with the Motown staff is:

1. motown was done with the group. they were moving to LA in 72, the movie was coming out, etc.
2. motown was probably tired of jean. she was a tough personality and so i think that influenced how much interest there was in the company to deal with her
3. the changing lineup. i think the departure of Cindy had a much bigger impact on the decline of the group than most of us really acknowledge
4. JW - Bayou mentioned [[i think on the FB chats on this topic) that motown wasn't really interested in bringing in an outside producer. but the group's manager brought in Jimmy. I had sort of thought "oh wow! look at motown turning every stone to try and help get the group going again" but sounds like that wasn't the case. apparently the label was REALLY uninterested in the album and hence the total lack of promotion and singles from it. also apparently Jean really pushed back on motown LOUDLY to get them to get off their butts and do something. again, probably not well received even if deserved
5. too many other artists making money - while this time period wasn't the mega success of the 60s, you had the Temps scoring #1 songs and top 10 albums, the J5 had only just begun to slip but were still selling zillions, marvin did What's Going On and was about to release Let's Get it On, the movie, Diana and TMITM, Stevie and his things. why keep investing money into an act that had one of the top name recognitions but seems they couldn't even buy a top 10 record?

[sup_fan]

I think Mary was savvy enough to have calculated those options. Option 1 wasn't going to fly because she wasn't going to play nice if no one else was playing nice, and from her POV from the start it appeared there wasn't going to be nice play for anyone. I've said in the forum before that once it was clear that the reunion wouldn't happen, Mary went for option 2. No doubt in my mind she saw how "victim" Mary might be more lucrative than my earlier suggestion that she simply release a statement that negotiations broke down or a very vague she is unable to participate at this time but she wishes the girls luck and they'll have the opportunity to reunite again.

I think Diana "the monster" is a bit too far. It's not like Mary was running around saying Diana eats children or something.

yeah but mary was going around saying what a spoiled brat diana was, how selfish she was, how this, how that.

diana never went around and said mary was a whore sleeping with 10,000 men. diana didn't ever say mary was two faced [[even though flo did). although Diana's Sparrow book is pretty much unless, there are a few points that make it worthwhile. her comment on the MW situation was quite discrete. perhaps all of us fans would have loved a few zingers. but she basically said that they were friends at one point, but now there really isn't a bond any more. that diana loves and wishes her well but has no desire to be part of one anothers lives anymore. damn!! short, simple but heavy

[RanRan79]

I think the issue with Mary's books is that they're extremely lopsided. of course she's telling it from her POV and what person wants to trash themselves? so i get it.

she wrote the first one and there was no guarantee that she'd do Book 2. they weren't even with the same publishing company. in Dreamgirl, she lists pretty much every possible slight and offense that Diana could ever have done and yet never lists anything of what Diana really did well. Gil has mentioned how BOTH diana and mary were really trying to save Flo, especially once Berry was starting to see the writing on the wall. Diana suggested mary sing lead on Falling in Love, Diana tried to get berry to add Manhattan to the R&H lp. Mary was also very much inline with the company strategy to replace Flo. yet in the book, it really comes across almost like D and B maliciously plotting against Flo.

and since there was NO promise of Book 2, for Mary to list all of these grievances with Diana and not make 1 mention of Diana loading her much needed money, is really quite terrible and underhanded.

in Sup Faith, Mary paints that picture of pretty much every 70s Sup ganging up against her and causing problems. sorry but that's a bit too hard to believe. the common element there is Mary - yet she never acknowledges the mistakes she made which led to the demise of the group. of how she was also a source of the conflict with jean. not that jean wasn't a VERY strong willed woman and difficult. but mary was as much to blame there too.

I think there was a guarantee that she would do book 2. For Mary to tell the entire story, that would have been a HUGE book. Makes sense that the offer on the table from the publishers was focus on the Diana years. If successful, the rest of the story goes into book 2. Of course I'm only speculating.

But the accusation of Mary playing victim when she was the common denominator of the drama between her and the 70s Supremes is essentially the way Diana is treated around here. All the stories told about her, from Mary and Florence, to other Motowners, to their music peers of the 60s, they all ganged up on poor Diana to tear her down because they're jealous, etc, rather than flat out admitting if all those people have horrible stories about her, then maybe, just maybe, sometimes she was a horrible person. When people leave hurt feelings in their wake, they shouldn't be shocked if the people they hurt lash out, either in the moment or down the line.

Mary was going to tell the story from her POV and that might not have allowed her to see herself as clearly as the folks around her. I will say this: Mary was much more inclined to weight her faults in relation to the other 70s Supremes than Diana was in hers in relation to Flo and Mary. There are several passages in Supreme Faith where Mary writes about seeing things from Jean, Lynda, Scherrie, Susaye and Cindy's perspectives. Diana never did that because IMO to Diana everything that went down in the 60s was her right to do and say and anyone who had a problem with it should just get over it.

[sup_fan]

There were things in Mary's books that have since been debunked. She [[or her ghostwriter) definitely played up things for drama, like "People" being taken from Flo and given to Diana. There's no evidence Diana ever sang the song as a lead until the Funny Girl sessions. There are some other things like that in the books. But the idea that the books were two big liar, liar, pants on fire novels about Diana Ross is just not the way I see it. I still feel like if Mary really wanted to be nasty, she could have gone much lower. But between her recollections of the relationship breakdown between herself and Diana, and then Flo's recollections of the relationship breakdown between she and Diana, I'll just put it this way: both of them aren't lying about everything. Diana had moments where she was a real disrespectful pain in the ass. And guess what: that's the case for all of us. We all have our moments. Florence got to the point where she was willing to forgive and move on. And because Diana had her own issues with Flo- because yes, Flo could be a pain in the ass- Diana was willing to do the same. I really feel like Mary was so bothered by what happened at Motown 25 that anything she may have been able to let live in the past just stirred up and resulted in a book where Mary wrote about the less desirable side of Diana, as well as revealed some of Diana's personal business.

Communication could have gone a long way to curing what ailed Mary and Diana, but they just seemed to have a problem doing it productively.

yeah but that's part of the problem. diana didn't steal People from Flo, berry didn't apparently cut this song as described at Copa dress rehearsals. yet this is a big part of her book. Mary acknowledges that the first Copa was a monumental achievement for the group and she brings in a very large, very messy and apparently very untrue story into it. it wasn't just 1 phrase in 1 sentence on 1 page that was inaccurate. this is a MUCH bigger component to the overall story.

that is inaccurate and not just in a little way. this isn't some insignificant mix up like "i thought the gowns were purple and not pink" mary specifies that what was frankly one of the biggest points in the history of the Sups was viewed as one of the biggest disappointments for Flo. that sets the stage for the whole story of Flo's decline, of the conflict with F and B and D.

that degree of inaccuracy is what others could call slander

[RanRan79]

yeah but mary was going around saying what a spoiled brat diana was, how selfish she was, how this, how that.

diana never went around and said mary was a whore sleeping with 10,000 men. diana didn't ever say mary was two faced [[even though flo did). although Diana's Sparrow book is pretty much unless, there are a few points that make it worthwhile. her comment on the MW situation was quite discrete. perhaps all of us fans would have loved a few zingers. but she basically said that they were friends at one point, but now there really isn't a bond any more. that diana loves and wishes her well but has no desire to be part of one anothers lives anymore. damn!! short, simple but heavy

But the consensus of a lot of them around at the time was that she was a brat and she was selfish. And lets be real: Diana didn't hurl accusations about Mary's sex life because that would have been like Flo throwing zingers at David Ruffin for his substance abuse issues. Pot meet kettle. Diana's sex life is still making headlines [[thanks to Smokey).

I still haven't seen any interviews Mary gave where she just tore Diana down in the 80s. The two interviews I recall [[because admittedly I haven't bothered to watch many) she's complimentary but dances around the negative parts, especially when it seems like the host is baiting her to say something really nasty about Diana.

[sup_fan]

I think there was a guarantee that she would do book 2. For Mary to tell the entire story, that would have been a HUGE book. Makes sense that the offer on the table from the publishers was focus on the Diana years. If successful, the rest of the story goes into book 2. Of course I'm only speculating.

But the accusation of Mary playing victim when she was the common denominator of the drama between her and the 70s Supremes is essentially the way Diana is treated around here. All the stories told about her, from Mary and Florence, to other Motowners, to their music peers of the 60s, they all ganged up on poor Diana to tear her down because they're jealous, etc, rather than flat out admitting if all those people have horrible stories about her, then maybe, just maybe, sometimes she was a horrible person. When people leave hurt feelings in their wake, they shouldn't be shocked if the people they hurt lash out, either in the moment or down the line.

Mary was going to tell the story from her POV and that might not have allowed her to see herself as clearly as the folks around her. I will say this: Mary was much more inclined to weight her faults in relation to the other 70s Supremes than Diana was in hers in relation to Flo and Mary. There are several passages in Supreme Faith where Mary writes about seeing things from Jean, Lynda, Scherrie, Susaye and Cindy's perspectives. Diana never did that because IMO to Diana everything that went down in the 60s was her right to do and say and anyone who had a problem with it should just get over it.

i definitely agree that Diana also didn't own her side of the story with the 60s era. how she talks about how the girls went behind her with a vengeance and all. completely agree. that she never acknowledges her "artistic temperament" as some call it. she did once or twice barely touch on it - some like about yelling at the makeup girl for something when the blame should have been berry's.

if mary felt Diana was a bitch and all of this egregious behavior in the 60s, and then all of the dismissive behavior from Diana in the 70s, then why on earth would mary have Diana as Turkessa's godmother? after publishing Dreamgirl and her whole book tour, was mary really so foolish as to think she could visit Diana backstage on the Workin Overtime tour? oh but it's convenient that Entertainment Tonight cameras were there to capture it all.

Although Diana's 20/20 interview after Mary's regarding RTL was probably more a disaster than good, she talks about mary building a career on being a victim. that is fairly accurate.

[RanRan79]

yeah but that's part of the problem. diana didn't steal People from Flo, berry didn't apparently cut this song as described at Copa dress rehearsals. yet this is a big part of her book. Mary acknowledges that the first Copa was a monumental achievement for the group and she brings in a very large, very messy and apparently very untrue story into it. it wasn't just 1 phrase in 1 sentence on 1 page that was inaccurate. this is a MUCH bigger component to the overall story.

that is inaccurate and not just in a little way. this isn't some insignificant mix up like "i thought the gowns were purple and not pink" mary specifies that what was frankly one of the biggest points in the history of the Sups was viewed as one of the biggest disappointments for Flo. that sets the stage for the whole story of Flo's decline, of the conflict with F and B and D.

that degree of inaccuracy is what others could call slander

Again, no evidence that Diana ever sang "People" in place of Flo. There is no debate there. However, the song was removed from the act at a point, which likely caused an issue. Isn't it possible Mary conflated the first Copa gig with a later gig in which this took place? Remember, she's writing 20 year old memories. In 1970, Diana couldn't remember that "Love Is Here" was from 1967, not 1965. And y'all swear up and down that all these years we never hear Diana talk about the music is because she doesn't remember what she recorded yesterday.

The question for me is sometimes how much of it was a mixture of memories vs "Oh I'm just gonna lie about it"? It's hard for me to imagine that Mary Wilson just up and decided "I'm going to tell lies and lies, and more lies and make googobs of money, bwah, ha, ha, ha, ha!"

[sup_fan]

But the consensus of a lot of them around at the time was that she was a brat and she was selfish. And lets be real: Diana didn't hurl accusations about Mary's sex life because that would have been like Flo throwing zingers at David Ruffin for his substance abuse issues. Pot meet kettle. Diana's sex life is still making headlines [[thanks to Smokey).

I still haven't seen any interviews Mary gave where she just tore Diana down in the 80s. The two interviews I recall [[because admittedly I haven't bothered to watch many) she's complimentary but dances around the negative parts, especially when it seems like the host is baiting her to say something really nasty about Diana.

but that's sort of the point. Mary does bring up Diana and Brian Holland, Diana and Smokey. neither of those really had any major impact on the group because the group really didn't have any impact at that time. Diana never discussed any of mary's affairs.

or what about the story of whatever snide remarks Diana makes to that Margie friend of Mary's. i agree that it's very, very likely true. but lord knows there HAD to be plenty of times mary made a bitchy comment to someone. i'll bet there were times mary made a smarkaleck comment to Mrs Ross. they ALL did because all 3 were immature teenagers.

so just as you said, pot calling the kettle black, is my point. all of this bitchy and snotty behavior from Diana is true. and mary would probably have just as many stories yet she's the "quiet one"

the Berry relationship is different because that DOES clearly have direct impact on the group. so that being part of mary's book makes sense. and i'll say she doesn't go into excessive or inappropriate or intrusive details about it. to be honest i think this part is handled well, from what i know

[sup_fan]

Again, no evidence that Diana ever sang "People" in place of Flo. There is no debate there. However, the song was removed from the act at a point, which likely caused an issue. Isn't it possible Mary conflated the first Copa gig with a later gig in which this took place? Remember, she's writing 20 year old memories. In 1970, Diana couldn't remember that "Love Is Here" was from 1967, not 1965. And y'all swear up and down that all these years we never hear Diana talk about the music is because she doesn't remember what she recorded yesterday.

The question for me is sometimes how much of it was a mixture of memories vs "Oh I'm just gonna lie about it"? It's hard for me to imagine that Mary Wilson just up and decided "I'm going to tell lies and lies, and more lies and make googobs of money, bwah, ha, ha, ha, ha!"

yeah but calling Love Is Here a 65 tune vs a 67 tune is sort of like my example of "oh i thought the gowns were purple and not pink"

the overall Copa story is one of the most important aspects of the history of the group. the training the group went through for the show is what really elevated them to mega star, the confidence and command they seemed to have acquired is amazing, the showmanship they demonstrated is WAY beyond their years and experience. and we've only heard the handful of audios on this! it really did set the stage for everything that came later

so this isn't a situation where "oh is the gown purple blue or green" or "was this song 65 or 67".

also the whole story of the deterioration of Flo is practically as large of a component of the history as the Copa.

the importance each of these has is what makes accuracy so necessary. this isn't some misstated random fact. these are both cornerstones of the entire history of the group.

now why People wasn't in the Copa lineup? i don't know. Andrew, George and team also don't go too far into this either, and rightfully so. according to them, we have these 6 shows. 2 a night for 3 nights. within those 6 shows, there apparently was no People sung. but they had sung it just a few months prior and would continue to sing it in shows post Copa 65. there are no bootlegs or versions that i'm aware of where Diana sings the song from beginning to end. Flo has stated that she picked the tune as a shared lead with her and Diana. It is certainly possible that Berry said, during Copa rehearsals, "let's cut People." but there's no evidence that he gave the song to Diana because if he HAD given it to Diana, we can be assured that in fall 66 at Roostertail, the odds of him giving it BACK to flo are little to none.

so this People/Copa story is a big deal because it centers around two of the biggest components of the group's history. and if this is inaccurate, then what else is?

[reese]

Again, no evidence that Diana ever sang "People" in place of Flo. There is no debate there. However, the song was removed from the act at a point, which likely caused an issue. Isn't it possible Mary conflated the first Copa gig with a later gig in which this took place? Remember, she's writing 20 year old memories. In 1970, Diana couldn't remember that "Love Is Here" was from 1967, not 1965. And y'all swear up and down that all these years we never hear Diana talk about the music is because she doesn't remember what she recorded yesterday.

The question for me is sometimes how much of it was a mixture of memories vs "Oh I'm just gonna lie about it"? It's hard for me to imagine that Mary Wilson just up and decided "I'm going to tell lies and lies, and more lies and make googobs of money, bwah, ha, ha, ha, ha!"

I recall reading [I think it was in J. Randy's book] that Mary had to have sessions with a hypnotist to remember some events from the Supremes years.

I also think Mary went off the memories of some in her research team, like Tony Turner. In his book ALL THAT GLITTERED, some of his descriptions are funny, like Diana busily fussing with her hair during MY WORLD IS EMPTY WITHOUT YOU during the Sullivan show, although video proves that it isn't true.

In the same book, Turner gave quite a dramatic scene of PEOPLE being removed from the act during a rehearsal for the first Copa engagement. He wrote of Flo screaming "She'll [Diana] never get away with it!" and dodging traffic all the way from the Copa back to her hotel. Then he wrote that a few nights later, Diana was singing the lead. But every now and then, Flo would ring out with a few lines of PEOPLE when they were getting ready in their dressing room.

Even though the PEOPLE taken from Flo and given to Diana story has long been debunked, Mary still included it in her last book SUPREME GLAMOUR.

[RanRan79]

i definitely agree that Diana also didn't own her side of the story with the 60s era. how she talks about how the girls went behind her with a vengeance and all. completely agree. that she never acknowledges her "artistic temperament" as some call it. she did once or twice barely touch on it - some like about yelling at the makeup girl for something when the blame should have been berry's.

if mary felt Diana was a bitch and all of this egregious behavior in the 60s, and then all of the dismissive behavior from Diana in the 70s, then why on earth would mary have Diana as Turkessa's godmother? after publishing Dreamgirl and her whole book tour, was mary really so foolish as to think she could visit Diana backstage on the Workin Overtime tour? oh but it's convenient that Entertainment Tonight cameras were there to capture it all.

Although Diana's 20/20 interview after Mary's regarding RTL was probably more a disaster than good, she talks about mary building a career on being a victim. that is fairly accurate.

Mary built a career on talent. If Diana did see it that way, that Mary felt like a victim, she still didn't contact Mary to see if she could play a part in turning that around since Diana believed that Mary blamed her for her "victimhood".

To Mary, Diana was family. To Diana, Mary was family. That can make for a complicated dynamic, and if nothing else we should all agree that this was a complicated dynamic. Lol And yes, I'm getting ready to put my Dr. RanRan79, resident psychologist, hat on: Mary had a psychological issue where she found it hard to let go of people, probably stemming from the initial "abandonment" by her mother and the subsequent removal from the home and parents she spent her early childhood with. It's likely the same thing about why she would re-sign with Motown in 74 and again in 78, and then feel some type a way about being shown the door in 1980. She couldn't let go. I believe this was Mary's mindset with Diana: that they were sisters, they didn't always get along but it was still love, and when Diana went wrong it was "Well, that's just Diane". [[I know from personal experience how damaging it can be when family members adopt a "well, that's just so-so" when a person is being toxic.) Mary likely didn't hold things against Diana in the 70s in the front of her mind. It wasn't like it was in the 60s when they were around each other 24/7 and even the little things become big things. But when Motown 25 happened, Mary decided to get even, and all those things she probably didn't think still bothered her, came rushing to the surface.

Even in 2023 it amazes me how little understanding people give the psychology of why we do the things we do. [[Not saying you in particular, talking broadly here.) Even Diana's actions toward the other Supremes had a psychology component, rooted in her childhood.

Mary and Diana included each other in their lives but they had issues that neither was savvy enough to deal with. And still, as I said previously, even after all the books, the 20/20 interviews, they still always found some way to get in touch with each other. That's what it's like when you have familial feelings for someone. That's not what it's like when you just "worked together" many years ago.

[sup_fan]

Mary built a career on talent. If Diana did see it that way, that Mary felt like a victim, she still didn't contact Mary to see if she could play a part in turning that around since Diana believed that Mary blamed her for her "victimhood".

To Mary, Diana was family. To Diana, Mary was family. That can make for a complicated dynamic, and if nothing else we should all agree that this was a complicated dynamic. Lol And yes, I'm getting ready to put my Dr. RanRan79, resident psychologist, hat on: Mary had a psychological issue where she found it hard to let go of people, probably stemming from the initial "abandonment" by her mother and the subsequent removal from the home and parents she spent her early childhood with. It's likely the same thing about why she would re-sign with Motown in 74 and again in 78, and then feel some type a way about being shown the door in 1980. She couldn't let go. I believe this was Mary's mindset with Diana: that they were sisters, they didn't always get along but it was still love, and when Diana went wrong it was "Well, that's just Diane". [[I know from personal experience how damaging it can be when family members adopt a "well, that's just so-so" when a person is being toxic.) Mary likely didn't hold things against Diana in the 70s in the front of her mind. It wasn't like it was in the 60s when they were around each other 24/7 and even the little things become big things. But when Motown 25 happened, Mary decided to get even, and all those things she probably didn't think still bothered her, came rushing to the surface.

Even in 2023 it amazes me how little understanding people give the psychology of why we do the things we do. [[Not saying you in particular, talking broadly here.) Even Diana's actions toward the other Supremes had a psychology component, rooted in her childhood.

Mary and Diana included each other in their lives but they had issues that neither was savvy enough to deal with. And still, as I said previously, even after all the books, the 20/20 interviews, they still always found some way to get in touch with each other. That's what it's like when you have familial feelings for someone. That's not what it's like when you just "worked together" many years ago.

now that is interesting. i'd not thought about her abandonment issues. Randy goes into a bit of the 2 sides of Diana, and how they're based on her parents. the warm and loving Diana on stage and how she gives and needs in return that bond with the audience. and then the more cold and calculating side [[like her father) when it comes to business and off stage

[RanRan79]

yeah but calling Love Is Here a 65 tune vs a 67 tune is sort of like my example of "oh i thought the gowns were purple and not pink"

the overall Copa story is one of the most important aspects of the history of the group. the training the group went through for the show is what really elevated them to mega star, the confidence and command they seemed to have acquired is amazing, the showmanship they demonstrated is WAY beyond their years and experience. and we've only heard the handful of audios on this! it really did set the stage for everything that came later

so this isn't a situation where "oh is the gown purple blue or green" or "was this song 65 or 67".

also the whole story of the deterioration of Flo is practically as large of a component of the history as the Copa.

the importance each of these has is what makes accuracy so necessary. this isn't some misstated random fact. these are both cornerstones of the entire history of the group.

now why People wasn't in the Copa lineup? i don't know. Andrew, George and team also don't go too far into this either, and rightfully so. according to them, we have these 6 shows. 2 a night for 3 nights. within those 6 shows, there apparently was no People sung. but they had sung it just a few months prior and would continue to sing it in shows post Copa 65. there are no bootlegs or versions that i'm aware of where Diana sings the song from beginning to end. Flo has stated that she picked the tune as a shared lead with her and Diana. It is certainly possible that Berry said, during Copa rehearsals, "let's cut People." but there's no evidence that he gave the song to Diana because if he HAD given it to Diana, we can be assured that in fall 66 at Roostertail, the odds of him giving it BACK to flo are little to none.

so this People/Copa story is a big deal because it centers around two of the biggest components of the group's history. and if this is inaccurate, then what else is?

There's probably quite a bit of inaccuracies because again, these are 20 something year old memories. But the essence of some of the dramas- Diana's selfishness, cattiness, down right nastiness- is the essence Florence talks about, as well as others. I don't think they can be discounted. The truth is that the Supremes did implode and it didn't happen out of nowhere. It wasn't that Flo decided one day to self medicate, that group was having some real issues. And I do think Berry was the real root of it all and he certainly gets his share of the blame in the book, but it's obvious that the Diana angle is what would ultimately sale the story and that becomes the focus.

[sup_fan]

Mary built a career on talent. If Diana did see it that way, that Mary felt like a victim, she still didn't contact Mary to see if she could play a part in turning that around since Diana believed that Mary blamed her for her "victimhood".

To Mary, Diana was family. To Diana, Mary was family. That can make for a complicated dynamic, and if nothing else we should all agree that this was a complicated dynamic. Lol And yes, I'm getting ready to put my Dr. RanRan79, resident psychologist, hat on: Mary had a psychological issue where she found it hard to let go of people, probably stemming from the initial "abandonment" by her mother and the subsequent removal from the home and parents she spent her early childhood with. It's likely the same thing about why she would re-sign with Motown in 74 and again in 78, and then feel some type a way about being shown the door in 1980. She couldn't let go. I believe this was Mary's mindset with Diana: that they were sisters, they didn't always get along but it was still love, and when Diana went wrong it was "Well, that's just Diane". [[I know from personal experience how damaging it can be when family members adopt a "well, that's just so-so" when a person is being toxic.) Mary likely didn't hold things against Diana in the 70s in the front of her mind. It wasn't like it was in the 60s when they were around each other 24/7 and even the little things become big things. But when Motown 25 happened, Mary decided to get even, and all those things she probably didn't think still bothered her, came rushing to the surface.

Even in 2023 it amazes me how little understanding people give the psychology of why we do the things we do. [[Not saying you in particular, talking broadly here.) Even Diana's actions toward the other Supremes had a psychology component, rooted in her childhood.

Mary and Diana included each other in their lives but they had issues that neither was savvy enough to deal with. And still, as I said previously, even after all the books, the 20/20 interviews, they still always found some way to get in touch with each other. That's what it's like when you have familial feelings for someone. That's not what it's like when you just "worked together" many years ago.

see i have a different perspective with mary. in 74 and 78 she didn't have any other options. or at least options that appealed to her. she had been living a very glamorous and very posh life. the other options would have required a different standard of living. so i don't really see her signing with Motown in those 2 years as sentimental. the girl needed a job and they were willing to at least do something. as the years went on into the 80s, mary was getting much much stronger as a vocalist. there are clips of her doing How Lucky on Merv and other shows in the early 80s. and she'd grown even more. but she was never able to get a deal. and she was a better singer then than in 74.

i believe most of mary's intent with writing Dreamgirl was 1) money and 2) spark interest in record company. she got a lot of money but no deal. diana made a comment in the press at the time that by 86 she'd been away from the Supremes longer than she had been with the supremes. she also alluded to this being something mary did because she needed money.

[sup_fan]

There's probably quite a bit of inaccuracies because again, these are 20 something year old memories. But the essence of some of the dramas- Diana's selfishness, cattiness, down right nastiness- is the essence Florence talks about, as well as others. I don't think they can be discounted. The truth is that the Supremes did implode and it didn't happen out of nowhere. It wasn't that Flo decided one day to self medicate, that group was having some real issues. And I do think Berry was the real root of it all and he certainly gets his share of the blame in the book, but it's obvious that the Diana angle is what would ultimately sale the story and that becomes the focus.

i don't discount or dispute Diana being selfish, catty or nasty. but there have been others that pointed out that she did many things to help the group, to help flo, to make things better. how is it that practically every nasty thing Diana ever said or did was remembered in stark clarity but every single decent thing is omitted?

[RanRan79]

now that is interesting. i'd not thought about her abandonment issues. Randy goes into a bit of the 2 sides of Diana, and how they're based on her parents. the warm and loving Diana on stage and how she gives and needs in return that bond with the audience. and then the more cold and calculating side [[like her father) when it comes to business and off stage

But that off stage cold and calculating may or may not have been like her father, but was likely a result of her father and the way he seemed to connect with his oldest daughter and the way he viewed Diana, as some sort of rebel who wanted to do her own thing instead of doing what he wanted her to do. It's also likely why she ended up with Gordy and put up with his abuse: ultimately Gordy gave her the attention she craved from Fred and the praise she craved from Fred and he believed in her abilities, seemingly unlike Fred.

I think all the original trio Supremes were complicated ladies on their own, and were likewise complicated when it came to their relationships with one another. In the end all three were simply people, just like the rest of us.

[RanRan79]

i don't discount or dispute Diana being selfish, catty or nasty. but there have been others that pointed out that she did many things to help the group, to help flo, to make things better. how is it that practically every nasty thing Diana ever said or did was remembered in stark clarity but every single decent thing is omitted?

Cuz decent Diana don't sell books.

[RanRan79]

see i have a different perspective with mary. in 74 and 78 she didn't have any other options. or at least options that appealed to her. she had been living a very glamorous and very posh life. the other options would have required a different standard of living. so i don't really see her signing with Motown in those 2 years as sentimental. the girl needed a job and they were willing to at least do something. as the years went on into the 80s, mary was getting much much stronger as a vocalist. there are clips of her doing How Lucky on Merv and other shows in the early 80s. and she'd grown even more. but she was never able to get a deal. and she was a better singer then than in 74.

i believe most of mary's intent with writing Dreamgirl was 1) money and 2) spark interest in record company. she got a lot of money but no deal. diana made a comment in the press at the time that by 86 she'd been away from the Supremes longer than she had been with the supremes. she also alluded to this being something mary did because she needed money.

Mary repeatedly referred to Motown as "home". That's what it was to her. She wasn't letting that go until she had to. Mary was always the most sentimental Supreme. She had been with Motown since she was 16 years old.

A good manager would have gotten Mary a record deal when Dreamgirl became a hit. She wasn't gonna have people calling from record companies for a 40 year old singer singing Barbara Streisand songs.

[sup_fan]

But that off stage cold and calculating may or may not have been like her father, but was likely a result of her father and the way he seemed to connect with his oldest daughter and the way he viewed Diana, as some sort of rebel who wanted to do her own thing instead of doing what he wanted her to do. It's also likely why she ended up with Gordy and put up with his abuse: ultimately Gordy gave her the attention she craved from Fred and the praise she craved from Fred and he believed in her abilities, seemingly unlike Fred.

I think all the original trio Supremes were complicated ladies on their own, and were likewise complicated when it came to their relationships with one another. In the end all three were simply people, just like the rest of us.

completely agree. all 9 of the women are humans, make good decisions, make bad decisions. have attributes and faults. DMF simply were in an amazingly high pressure and complex situation where things get magnified.

[RanRan79]

I recall reading [I think it was in J. Randy's book] that Mary had to have sessions with a hypnotist to remember some events from the Supremes years.

I also think Mary went off the memories of some in her research team, like Tony Turner. In his book ALL THAT GLITTERED, some of his descriptions are funny, like Diana busily fussing with her hair during MY WORLD IS EMPTY WITHOUT YOU during the Sullivan show, although video proves that it isn't true.

In the same book, Turner gave quite a dramatic scene of PEOPLE being removed from the act during a rehearsal for the first Copa engagement. He wrote of Flo screaming "She'll [Diana] never get away with it!" and dodging traffic all the way from the Copa back to her hotel. Then he wrote that a few nights later, Diana was singing the lead. But every now and then, Flo would ring out with a few lines of PEOPLE when they were getting ready in their dressing room.

Even though the PEOPLE taken from Flo and given to Diana story has long been debunked, Mary still included it in her last book SUPREME GLAMOUR.

Well if a hypnotist was involved, that certainly makes things even more murky. If Tall Tales is involved...aww never mind.

[sup_fan]

Cuz decent Diana don't sell books.

haha and that is MY point

[sup_fan]

Mary repeatedly referred to Motown as "home". That's what it was to her. She wasn't letting that go until she had to. Mary was always the most sentimental Supreme. She had been with Motown since she was 16 years old.

A good manager would have gotten Mary a record deal when Dreamgirl became a hit. She wasn't gonna have people calling from record companies for a 40 year old singer singing Barbara Streisand songs.

i think the issue is what deal would be made. I'll readily admit that i've not focused tons on mary's solo career. My assessment of the situation is that Mary was looking for a deal that would be a mega pop deal and something that would pay lots of money. like Tina Turner's deal in the 80s or something. or maybe one of Cher's. that's my guess. something that would have let her continue her "lifestyles of the rich and famous" persona.

mary's strengths are in her group singing. there's nothing wrong with that. i totally agree with a comment she made about some people slighting her about being "only" a background singer and she'd reply "she was the STAR in the background." a group requires multiple members and to have 3 part harmony [[aside from overdubbing 1 voice) you need 3 singers. IMO Mary should have done everything possible to keep the group going. her idea in the 70s to launch a solo career was misguided. not because she couldn't sing but because the odds of her having a "lifestyles of the rich and famous" living off her solo voice was very unlikely.

it's like all those kids at the Fame high school or trying to be the next great concert soloist violinist. there are only so many of those soloist and frankly, kid, you don't have it. you're not going to achieve that level of fame and accolades. but you can make a good living playing in the orchestra, gigging, having a teaching studio, etc.

someone should have had that hard discussion with mary. "hey you're a very good singer but frankly, the Sups concept is where you shine best. keep it going" Of course she could have solo leads. and just like the FLOs eventually allowed for the women to do totally separate side projects, a modern rendition of the Sups could have done that too. MSC could have made appearances on tv shows, been guest vocalists on other people's albums, maintained some current recordings, continue like the FLOs did.

another option would have been to sign a much smaller, less lucrative contract and focus on jazz or a small cabaret set. mary's shows later were wonderful and fit this category beautifully. had she adjusted her perspective earlier she might have gotten a contract in these areas. sure she'd not have a mega mansion in Hancock Park in LA. but it could have potentially been quite fulfilling to do her own music and all

[Boogiedown]

Lots to digest here and a very good read .

That Diana Ross went on tour with two woman who yes had bouts as being Supremes , but never with Diana Ross and had nothing to do with the hits they’d be singing together on stage, cements my conclusion that Diana Ross doesn’t give two cents about the Supremes era. She didn’t care who was actually singing on those records even as they were being released…. and as they became hits , she saw that the fans didn’t really care either.

Shame on Mary to agree to a book that only showed one side of Diana if that’s the case. But it should be noted that Mary went through hell post Diana /Supremes which shattered her dream-come-true life and she resented being left out to dry while Disns was treated like Princess Diana with Diana only too happy to go along with that .

That Diana would even consider to go on stage with such an evil Mary Wilson is kind of ironic and a bit of just desserts. Now she was getting a taste of what Mary had gone through, that without the Supremes her draw power wasn’t quite up to snuff . In 2000 this must have really been true for Ross for her to relinquish to including Mary.

[RanRan79]

i think the issue is what deal would be made. I'll readily admit that i've not focused tons on mary's solo career. My assessment of the situation is that Mary was looking for a deal that would be a mega pop deal and something that would pay lots of money. like Tina Turner's deal in the 80s or something. or maybe one of Cher's. that's my guess. something that would have let her continue her "lifestyles of the rich and famous" persona.

mary's strengths are in her group singing. there's nothing wrong with that. i totally agree with a comment she made about some people slighting her about being "only" a background singer and she'd reply "she was the STAR in the background." a group requires multiple members and to have 3 part harmony [[aside from overdubbing 1 voice) you need 3 singers. IMO Mary should have done everything possible to keep the group going. her idea in the 70s to launch a solo career was misguided. not because she couldn't sing but because the odds of her having a "lifestyles of the rich and famous" living off her solo voice was very unlikely.

it's like all those kids at the Fame high school or trying to be the next great concert soloist violinist. there are only so many of those soloist and frankly, kid, you don't have it. you're not going to achieve that level of fame and accolades. but you can make a good living playing in the orchestra, gigging, having a teaching studio, etc.

someone should have had that hard discussion with mary. "hey you're a very good singer but frankly, the Sups concept is where you shine best. keep it going" Of course she could have solo leads. and just like the FLOs eventually allowed for the women to do totally separate side projects, a modern rendition of the Sups could have done that too. MSC could have made appearances on tv shows, been guest vocalists on other people's albums, maintained some current recordings, continue like the FLOs did.

another option would have been to sign a much smaller, less lucrative contract and focus on jazz or a small cabaret set. mary's shows later were wonderful and fit this category beautifully. had she adjusted her perspective earlier she might have gotten a contract in these areas. sure she'd not have a mega mansion in Hancock Park in LA. but it could have potentially been quite fulfilling to do her own music and all

Regarding Mary Wilson, group vocalist vs solo vocalist, is that your opinion is subjective. Mary got to a place where she believed she could do it on her own. And quite frankly, her Dudgeon tracks are proof for me that she very well had a chance at a successful solo career. Again, perusing the tons of artists who had record deals in the 80s...to come away with the thought Mary of all people didn't stand a chance, come on.

Mary's problem was that she didn't have a good manager or team, and she was all over the place musically. There were times when she tried to rock out like Tina, and then times when she was trying to be the Black Streisand. Mary could rock, surprisingly, but the industry already had Tina. Plus stage wise, Mary was no Tina Turner. The Atlantic demos suggest there was interest in taking her in the Anita Baker/Phyllis Hyman type of direction. IMO that's exactly where she needed to be. I don't understand the argument that Mary wasn't good enough to sale records in the 80s.

Mary's expectations for what a solo career would do for her lifestyle is way too speculative without any evidence or anecdotes for me to speculate on. The truth is that even without a recording deal, Mary never had to go on the welfare and there were no headlines about her being broke. I can only imagine that decent selling albums would have enhanced her already good lifestyle.

In the 90s, the album Mary recorded and the other singles she released were not what she should have been doing. Like Diana, Mary was trying to go in a direction that I personally think should have been in the rearview mirror. Had Mary- and Diana- looked at what Natalie Cole was doing and went that route, I think their 90s musical story plays out differently.

[sup_fan]

Regarding Mary Wilson, group vocalist vs solo vocalist, is that your opinion is subjective. Mary got to a place where she believed she could do it on her own. And quite frankly, her Dudgeon tracks are proof for me that she very well had a chance at a successful solo career. Again, perusing the tons of artists who had record deals in the 80s...to come away with the thought Mary of all people didn't stand a chance, come on.

Mary's problem was that she didn't have a good manager or team, and she was all over the place musically. There were times when she tried to rock out like Tina, and then times when she was trying to be the Black Streisand. Mary could rock, surprisingly, but the industry already had Tina. Plus stage wise, Mary was no Tina Turner. The Atlantic demos suggest there was interest in taking her in the Anita Baker/Phyllis Hyman type of direction. IMO that's exactly where she needed to be. I don't understand the argument that Mary wasn't good enough to sale records in the 80s.

Mary's expectations for what a solo career would do for her lifestyle is way too speculative without any evidence or anecdotes for me to speculate on. The truth is that even without a recording deal, Mary never had to go on the welfare and there were no headlines about her being broke. I can only imagine that decent selling albums would have enhanced her already good lifestyle.

In the 90s, the album Mary recorded and the other singles she released were not what she should have been doing. Like Diana, Mary was trying to go in a direction that I personally think should have been in the rearview mirror. Had Mary- and Diana- looked at what Natalie Cole was doing and went that route, I think their 90s musical story plays out differently.

i'm basing my financial comments off of what other fans have said and from the various books. totally agree that this is speculation as none of them have ever gone into depth on her finances. there's the story that she dragged all of her sup memorabilia to a friend's house to appear on the tv show "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous," her borrow money from diana for the house loan, spending all of the money from the Dreamgirl book, etc. I'm not sure if these specifics are exactly correct or exaggerations. the general claim about her "living the glamorous Supremes lifestyle" is one that appears in some of the books and how she was a student of Berry's - PR and public perceptions are important. and so to keep her legacy and the Supremes' alive, she presented an image of being rich, carefree, glamorous, etc.

i too really like the Gus tracks. Save Me is one of the best things she's ever sung. that motown totally tossed them aside is a bit surprising because of how good it is. clearly by this time Berry was probably so furious over the lawsuit and all that nothing would work. and yes it is rearview mirror here - maybe if motown had released it, it might have done something and established her.

but that also sort of implies that being a solo star is "better" than being "just" a supreme. my question is why is it viewed negatively to suggest that staying in the group would have been a good option for her? the versatility of the group and the versatility of each of the members is part of the magic of the Supremes.

[marybrewster]

The most telling thing is: in "Secrets", Diana made it clear she was no longer going to deal with Mary's "antics": we were friends, we no longer are, I wish her well, end of story.

And that's where Diana, in her own words, should have left it.

But she knew Mary was too valuable to her, and needed her for a successful "Return". So even after she dug in her heels and said I'm not going there again, she did.

And look what happened.

[blackguy69]

So are we back to it’s all Mary’s fault and Diana’s the victim? I hope we don’t go down this road again.

[Boogiedown]

Diana Ross obviously felt Mary Wilson was no where near entitled to any kind of money that was close to hers and to have it that way would elevate Mary to a level approaching hers and no way was she having that. She didn’t realize the star power the name Mary Wilson could have in amping up this tour. She should have been happy that at last Mary and Cindy would be getting a healthy piece of the pie and her share of it would therefore increase along with it.
Instead she honestly and incorrectly felt any Supreme would do . But by 2000 the real fans that would even care at this point now knew the rest of the story and had witnessed how over the years things had played out. Any Supreme wouldn’t do.