Revisiting Return to Love - the Promoters Tried to Tie Diana Down for 5 Years

[RanRan79]

I agree with most of what you said, Ran. But some added context - there are few groups who survive on the same level after a lead singer departs and becomes a star of Diana's magnitude. I mean, you had The Miracles who had a good run after Smokey left, of course. But I'm having trouble coming up with too many others. I think The Supremes had about as good a run as one might expect, in some ways.

Point being The post-Ross Supremes were being hit hard for their revolving door lineup, in a way that The Temptations weren't. And The Temptations had many more lineup changes than The Supremes had. While I think The Supremes had a bit of a raw deal in the 1970s, at the same time, circumstances being what they were, ending the group when it did helped stop some of that bleeding.

Where I depart slightly is that I find that while Pedro was a bad husband, I tend to think he often gets scapegoated for things that were largely already in motion. Mary was far from the only female entertainer who resorted to having her husband manage their affairs, but that's another thread.

You're right, few groups do it, but honestly, at the beginning, the Jean Supremes seemed to be headed in that direction. Better single choices and eventually better live act structure could have kept the Jean Supremes relevant longer. They were never going to be bigger than the Flo Supremes. Even DRATS couldn't compete with that. But if handled properly, I think at least the first five years of the 70s could have seen the group remain a household name.

Mary certainly was not the first or last woman to bring her husband in as manager. Sometimes it doesn't work, but sometimes it does. So sure, in and of itself, hiring Pedro isn't an "out of nowhere" decision. However, he wasn't just Mary's manager, he was Scherrie, Cindy and Susaye's manager also, which would have certainly put him in a position to look out more for her interests than the others. But since he didn't seem to have much in the way of business sense, or at least music business sense, he couldn't even look out for Mary's interests in a way that was truly beneficial. He sucked.

Plus Pedro being an abuser, "manager" allowed him complete access and control of Mary- which abusers crave- in a way he never would have had if Mary had worked in an office or a department store. So chances are he wasn't even all that serious about the job. But I do think by the time he came on that the writing was on the wall. The group didn't have much left in the tank, new blood or not.

[reese]

And when that failed, what then?

Mary was never going to be happy being a Supreme that long without Florence and Diana. I'm really leaning into the fan idea that the Supremes stayed a "thing" a tad bit too long. When Jean and Lynda exited at basically the same time, Mary should have gone for herself. And why not? Everybody else was doing what was best for themselves, while Mary was constantly having to worry about what was best for the Supremes. At some point that gets tiring.

Motown in the 70s was wishy washy with the group. There's no reason to believe the label would have been any more supportive in the 80s. And if Motown wasn't in the mix, there certainly wouldn't have been any touring as the Supremes, new or otherwise. And then there's Mary and Lynda. Yeah, that probably wouldn't have ended well.

I think Mary did do what was best for herself at the time, maintaining the group. I don't believe she had the confidence in her vocals yet to step out as a soloist. So she clung to the life raft she had, the Supremes.

Unfortunately, as the years went on, she had to bring in members whose emotional attachment to the group couldn't possibly come close to matching hers and I'm sure that had to be hard as well. From reading her books, it seems as if Mary only went solo when the group reached its absolute lowest.

[sup_fan]

we talk about the Sups struggles in 71 and 72. Diana had the same struggles basically. neither EIE or Surrender did anything of real worth in terms of sales and charts. motown gave much more push to Surrender than Touch or NW and it only crept to 56 and hardly spent any time on the charts. it wasn't until LSTB that Diana really broke out into the mega super star level.

the Temps were really the only group to sell albums in the late 60s and early 70s, along with the J5 in the early 70s. the Tops did well with 1 lp - Still Water. Stevie didn't really break out big time with lps until 72 or 73. Marvin finally hit big with WGO in mid 71. the Pips didn't have any huge sellers until the Neither One Of Us lp. nothing from MRATV.

it's amazing that the company took so long to figure this out. Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys was a major event and that was back in 66 or so. you would think someone would have been watchin industry trends and sales data. i can see a year or two going by and then "hey - we should tap into this" but nothing.

i think, in hindsight of course, Berry focused too much on the lily-white MOR style. the youth market and their buying power grew exponentially in the later 60s and into the 70s. the acts would still play Vegas and all. i don't think there was a problem with that. they could do a cabaret act there but then focus on more youth-oriented things elsewhere.

much of motown just was irrelevant by 71.

[marybrewster]

I agree with most of what you said, Ran. But some added context - there are few groups who survive on the same level after a lead singer departs and becomes a star of Diana's magnitude. I mean, you had The Miracles who had a good run after Smokey left, of course. But I'm having trouble coming up with too many others. I think The Supremes had about as good a run as one might expect, in some ways.

Point being The post-Ross Supremes were being hit hard for their revolving door lineup, in a way that The Temptations weren't. And The Temptations had many more lineup changes than The Supremes had. While I think The Supremes had a bit of a raw deal in the 1970s, at the same time, circumstances being what they were, ending the group when it did helped stop some of that bleeding.

Where I depart slightly is that I find that while Pedro was a bad husband, I tend to think he often gets scapegoated for things that were largely already in motion. Mary was far from the only female entertainer who resorted to having her husband manage their affairs, but that's another thread.

Chicago remained successful after Peter Cetera's departure. So did Genesis after Peter Gabriel. I might even say the Commodores after Lionel.

[jobeterob]

I think the Supremes, after Diana left, were overall, compared to other groups in similar circumstances, pretty successful and more successful than most - up to the end of the Jean years. Then it was downhill. And it was much more than just Pedro.

Lynda’s comments were blunt - but history, in my opinion, suggests they were accurate. A helluva lot more should have happened with reunions than did. Perhaps Diana should have reached out more and been more understanding. Perhaps Mary should have swallowed some of the pride and benefitted her pocketbook and the fans.

[jim aka jtigre99]

The Supremes did do fairly well in the 70's, they just lacked that monster #1 hit. Except for Ain't No Mountain-Diana was also in about the same chart position in the top 20. Motown should have backed Stoned Love more, it sold very well and with more push gone higher. After Stoned, Motown should have worked to get that #1 just a little harder. Still, they did very well until 1972 and still managed a top 40 in 1976, which should also have charted higher. The thing is with 3 members people wanted more familiarity, the Tempts had 5 so some of those changes were easier to accept. It wasn't until Lady that Diana hit the charts and superstar status.

[RanRan79]

I think Mary did do what was best for herself at the time, maintaining the group. I don't believe she had the confidence in her vocals yet to step out as a soloist. So she clung to the life raft she had, the Supremes.

Okay, I can't disagree with this take Reese. Makes a lot of sense.

[RanRan79]

I think the Supremes, after Diana left, were overall, compared to other groups in similar circumstances, pretty successful and more successful than most - up to the end of the Jean years. Then it was downhill. And it was much more than just Pedro.

Lynda’s comments were blunt - but history, in my opinion, suggests they were accurate. A helluva lot more should have happened with reunions than did. Perhaps Diana should have reached out more and been more understanding. Perhaps Mary should have swallowed some of the pride and benefitted her pocketbook and the fans.

As long as swallowing pride doesn't become allowing someone to disrespect you and your position. By the time of RTL, Mary was much too old to be screwed over and have someone leave the money on the nightstand.

[RanRan79]

The thing is with 3 members people wanted more familiarity, the Tempts had 5 so some of those changes were easier to accept.

I don't think I've ever thought about it like this before, but that's an interesting point. With three members, their identities shown more than if there were more members in the group. I guess that would make the revolving door of the Tempts much more palatable than the Supremes, even though the Supremes didn't have anywhere near as many groupings as the Tempts did.

However, I still maintain that by the time Scherrie came along, music fans were less interested in knowing and identifying with individual members than they were interested in music that they loved. The bubblegum groups were different. The Scherrie groups weren't bubblegum and weren't- nor should they have been- marketed toward the bubblegum crowd.

[telekin]

Chicago remained successful after Peter Cetera's departure. So did Genesis after Peter Gabriel. I might even say the Commodores after Lionel.

I didn't really consider Chicago and Genesis, but I would say The Commodores fit the pattern. They had a hit with "Nightshift" after Lionel, but not much else after that.

That said, I would have loved The Supremes to follow Chicago and Genesis as evolving musical "institutions." Nevertheless, there's been a lot done over the years to burnish The Supremes' legacy, but I suppose that had to be carved out in a different way.

[telekin]

You're right, few groups do it, but honestly, at the beginning, the Jean Supremes seemed to be headed in that direction. Better single choices and eventually better live act structure could have kept the Jean Supremes relevant longer. They were never going to be bigger than the Flo Supremes. Even DRATS couldn't compete with that. But if handled properly, I think at least the first five years of the 70s could have seen the group remain a household name.

Mary certainly was not the first or last woman to bring her husband in as manager. Sometimes it doesn't work, but sometimes it does. So sure, in and of itself, hiring Pedro isn't an "out of nowhere" decision. However, he wasn't just Mary's manager, he was Scherrie, Cindy and Susaye's manager also, which would have certainly put him in a position to look out more for her interests than the others. But since he didn't seem to have much in the way of business sense, or at least music business sense, he couldn't even look out for Mary's interests in a way that was truly beneficial. He sucked.

Plus Pedro being an abuser, "manager" allowed him complete access and control of Mary- which abusers crave- in a way he never would have had if Mary had worked in an office or a department store. So chances are he wasn't even all that serious about the job. But I do think by the time he came on that the writing was on the wall. The group didn't have much left in the tank, new blood or not.

But from another perceptive, how did women - black women at that, exert agency in an industry that was/is largely hostile to them? I can see why singers like Aretha and Melba Moore, to name just a couple, had their brutal husbands take charge of their careers. In almost all cases even when it was successful professionally, it ended terribly in their personal lives. Obviously there was an element of control there too, but also a sense that as a woman, they needed someone who could fight for them among all the other similarly brutal men who held power in the business.

The way I see it, Mary was backed into a corner at the time. The relationship with Motown was poisoned by this time. Given how Motown politics worked, they couldn't act as a group's management like they once did, but they got around that with "inside" and "outside" managers. So, for a group like The Supremes, perhaps you toed the line and got an “inside” manager, but you still weren’t getting anywhere. You never really knew if your managers were working for your benefit or for Motown’s. Mary’s efforts to own the name were stymied and Motown wasn’t going to let another group get away with their name after The Tempts and the Four Tops did, so she couldn't use that as leverage to go get a better deal elsewhere. At this point, she was left to fight from the inside, it seemed.

If anything, Pedro was someone who had legal training, unlike her, and someone who, at least in her mind, she could rely on to fight for her interests, which were increasingly the group’s interests, no matter what.

Granted, I wasn’t there, so I am only bringing this up for argument’s sake. Pedro may have been better, or even worse than any of us imagined as a manager. But it always rubbed me the wrong way whenever I see people on this forum and elsewhere suggest that there were zero rational reasons behind Mary putting Pedro in that position. Like it had to have been because she was “dickmatized” or something, not because of all the other pressures around or in the context of what other women in her position were also doing.

A somewhat related anecdote - in the aftermath of RTL, I joined a lot of the Supremes fan groups on Yahoo! I think they might have been called Yahoo Clubs at the time. Unfortunately all of those messages are lost to the ether now. Anyway, I remember Susaye had her own group at the time. Not sure if Susaye still checks these forums, but I remember at one point the topic of Pedro came up. And while I can't recall the exact statements word-for-word, I do remember being surprised by her assessment, which was a lot less harsh than I and perhaps many of the other group members had expected it to be.

[sup_fan]

And when that failed, what then?

Mary was never going to be happy being a Supreme that long without Florence and Diana. I'm really leaning into the fan idea that the Supremes stayed a "thing" a tad bit too long. When Jean and Lynda exited at basically the same time, Mary should have gone for herself. And why not? Everybody else was doing what was best for themselves, while Mary was constantly having to worry about what was best for the Supremes. At some point that gets tiring.

Motown in the 70s was wishy washy with the group. There's no reason to believe the label would have been any more supportive in the 80s. And if Motown wasn't in the mix, there certainly wouldn't have been any touring as the Supremes, new or otherwise. And then there's Mary and Lynda. Yeah, that probably wouldn't have ended well.

my understanding is motown was wanting this too. with J and L leaving, motown was assuming the sups were disbanded. they were an expensive act, had really dropped off the charts by 72 and just weren't something they were interested in continuing. not to mention the challenges with the group members themselves.

but it was mary who didn't have any other options. i don't blame her for backing out of leaving with J and L and forming a group elsewhere. by this time the working relationship between M and the other two was essentially over. Jean would be just as difficult with any other label and we all saw how that played out. mary had no options. there weren't any labels interested in her as a solo act. she didn't have any other outlets. one story is that she essentially begged on berry to keep the group going. technically motown could have dropped the act. but for some reason they allowed mary and the new act to keep touring.

[RanRan79]

But from another perceptive, how did women - black women at that, exert agency in an industry that was/is largely hostile to them? I can see why singers like Aretha and Melba Moore, to name just a couple, had their brutal husbands take charge of their careers. In almost all cases even when it was successful professionally, it ended terribly in their personal lives. Obviously there was an element of control there too, but also a sense that as a woman, they needed someone who could fight for them among all the other similarly brutal men who held power in the business.

The way I see it, Mary was backed into a corner at the time. The relationship with Motown was poisoned by this time. Given how Motown politics worked, they couldn't act as a group's management like they once did, but they got around that with "inside" and "outside" managers. So, for a group like The Supremes, perhaps you toed the line and got an “inside” manager, but you still weren’t getting anywhere. You never really knew if your managers were working for your benefit or for Motown’s. Mary’s efforts to own the name were stymied and Motown wasn’t going to let another group get away with their name after The Tempts and the Four Tops did, so she couldn't use that as leverage to go get a better deal elsewhere. At this point, she was left to fight from the inside, it seemed.

If anything, Pedro was someone who had legal training, unlike her, and someone who, at least in her mind, she could rely on to fight for her interests, which were increasingly the group’s interests, no matter what.

Granted, I wasn’t there, so I am only bringing this up for argument’s sake. Pedro may have been better, or even worse than any of us imagined as a manager. But it always rubbed me the wrong way whenever I see people on this forum and elsewhere suggest that there were zero rational reasons behind Mary putting Pedro in that position. Like it had to have been because she was “dickmatized” or something, not because of all the other pressures around or in the context of what other women in her position were also doing.

A somewhat related anecdote - in the aftermath of RTL, I joined a lot of the Supremes fan groups on Yahoo! I think they might have been called Yahoo Clubs at the time. Unfortunately all of those messages are lost to the ether now. Anyway, I remember Susaye had her own group at the time. Not sure if Susaye still checks these forums, but I remember at one point the topic of Pedro came up. And while I can't recall the exact statements word-for-word, I do remember being surprised by her assessment, which was a lot less harsh than I and perhaps many of the other group members had expected it to be.

I think those are valid points. I would have to go back to Mary's second book and see what she wrote regarding putting Pedro in a managerial position.

The role of manager is very integral to the success of an act. You mention Pedro's legal training. I was unaware of that, or forgotten about it. I can see where that could have been an asset, but what did Pedro bring to the table regarding direction of the music and the look? How did he further their booking choices? Did he pay attention to current trends? The Supremes needed someone who would move them forward in the industry. Pedro's ability to go up in Motown and put his foot in somebody's ass would have only accomplished so much.

So with all that in mind, making Pedro manager was as poor a choice as anyone else who would have taken on the role without the skills to effectively do the job.

[RanRan79]

my understanding is motown was wanting this too. with J and L leaving, motown was assuming the sups were disbanded. they were an expensive act, had really dropped off the charts by 72 and just weren't something they were interested in continuing. not to mention the challenges with the group members themselves.

but it was mary who didn't have any other options. i don't blame her for backing out of leaving with J and L and forming a group elsewhere. by this time the working relationship between M and the other two was essentially over. Jean would be just as difficult with any other label and we all saw how that played out. mary had no options. there weren't any labels interested in her as a solo act. she didn't have any other outlets. one story is that she essentially begged on berry to keep the group going. technically motown could have dropped the act. but for some reason they allowed mary and the new act to keep touring.

Mary had options, but as Reese pointed out, she was too scared to do anything but the Supremes. The group thing probably felt like a "sure" thing to Mary. The Supremes name was an already established entity, which Mary was a founding member of. Solo success was a huge risk and gamble. I've always opined that Mary was not big on taking risks, always going for the safest choice. Perhaps had she been more of a risk taker, her career outside the Supremes would have been much different.

In 1973 Mary was 29 years old, gorgeous, and had a beautiful voice. Had she not feared rejection or failure or whatever it was that hindered her, she could have gone to any number of labels and probably ended up with something. As I've said many times before, my music collection has a number of artists in it that managed to find recording deals with a fraction of the talent Mary Wilson had.

She had options. She chose to remain a Supreme. And nothing the Supremes did after that point did much for Mary's legacy.

Take risks people!

[jobeterob]

Mary had options, but as Reese pointed out, she was too scared to do anything but the Supremes. The group thing probably felt like a "sure" thing to Mary. The Supremes name was an already established entity, which Mary was a founding member of. Solo success was a huge risk and gamble. I've always opined that Mary was not big on taking risks, always going for the safest choice. Perhaps had she been more of a risk taker, her career outside the Supremes would have been much different.

In 1973 Mary was 29 years old, gorgeous, and had a beautiful voice. Had she not feared rejection or failure or whatever it was that hindered her, she could have gone to any number of labels and probably ended up with something. As I've said many times before, my music collection has a number of artists in it that managed to find recording deals with a fraction of the talent Mary Wilson had.

She had options. She chose to remain a Supreme. And nothing the Supremes did after that point did much for Mary's legacy.

Take risks people!

Whenever our members write posts like this, it makes me feel there is an enduring sadness around the 70's Supremes and around Mary. There are always so many "might have beens", so many legendary people Mary was going to work with but never did, so many reunions none of which amounted to anything. What have beens end up being nothing which is unfortunate and sad.

[sup_fan]

Mary had options, but as Reese pointed out, she was too scared to do anything but the Supremes. The group thing probably felt like a "sure" thing to Mary. The Supremes name was an already established entity, which Mary was a founding member of. Solo success was a huge risk and gamble. I've always opined that Mary was not big on taking risks, always going for the safest choice. Perhaps had she been more of a risk taker, her career outside the Supremes would have been much different.

In 1973 Mary was 29 years old, gorgeous, and had a beautiful voice. Had she not feared rejection or failure or whatever it was that hindered her, she could have gone to any number of labels and probably ended up with something. As I've said many times before, my music collection has a number of artists in it that managed to find recording deals with a fraction of the talent Mary Wilson had.

She had options. She chose to remain a Supreme. And nothing the Supremes did after that point did much for Mary's legacy.

Take risks people!

we've mentioned on here multiple times how Berry and Motown had 0 interest in doing anything with mary's voice. And this can't be because she can't sing. Mary Wells had a more limited voice than Mary Wilson. I think you're point about willingness to take risks and really push herself is what doomed Mary Wilson at motown. maybe if she had been a more aggressive personality, demanding things and pushing more, perhaps Berry would have found more to work with. we all know that BG was a slave driver and heavy task master. he wanted to work with people that were willing to sacrifice as much as he demanded.

[RanRan79]

Whenever our members write posts like this, it makes me feel there is an enduring sadness around the 70's Supremes and around Mary. There are always so many "might have beens", so many legendary people Mary was going to work with but never did, so many reunions none of which amounted to anything. What have beens end up being nothing which is unfortunate and sad.

Not just the 70s Supremes or Mary. There are tons of posts in the same vein regarding Diana and Florence. As super fans, and especially having the benefit of hindsight, we can list all the missed opportunities and woulda/shoulda/coulda's in our sleep. There is a sadness when you consider the possibilities that never materialized. Mary doing everything but the right thing in her solo career; Florence opting to wage legal battles rather than continue to build her solo career; Diana trying to compete with the Madonnas and Cyndi Laupers of the industry, forsaking music that proved Diana was a force to be reckoned with in favor of music that Little Lisa probably could've grown up to sing.

I think Flo, Diana, Mary and Jean messed up a lot of opportunities both inside and outside the group. Diana had the benefit of having a powerhouse in her corner, so her misses were often offset by her wins. Left to her own devices though...yikes! My personal opinion is that if two books were written, one focusing on everything the Supremes [[both as a group and as solos) got right and the other focusing on everything the Supremes got wrong, I feel like the "right" book would be 100 pages, while the "wrong" book would be 350.

[thanxal]

Not just the 70s Supremes or Mary. There are tons of posts in the same vein regarding Diana and Florence. As super fans, and especially having the benefit of hindsight, we can list all the missed opportunities and woulda/shoulda/coulda's in our sleep. There is a sadness when you consider the possibilities that never materialized. Mary doing everything but the right thing in her solo career; Florence opting to wage legal battles rather than continue to build her solo career; Diana trying to compete with the Madonnas and Cyndi Laupers of the industry, forsaking music that proved Diana was a force to be reckoned with in favor of music that Little Lisa probably could've grown up to sing.

I think Flo, Diana, Mary and Jean messed up a lot of opportunities both inside and outside the group. Diana had the benefit of having a powerhouse in her corner, so her misses were often offset by her wins. Left to her own devices though...yikes! My personal opinion is that if two books were written, one focusing on everything the Supremes [[both as a group and as solos) got right and the other focusing on everything the Supremes got wrong, I feel like the "right" book would be 100 pages, while the "wrong" book would be 350.

Sure, but I think everyone could agree that their "coulda been" to "actual successes" ratio [[for DMF/DMC/70sSups/Ross solo) is something most artists would die for. So maybe not an overall sad?

[RanRan79]

we've mentioned on here multiple times how Berry and Motown had 0 interest in doing anything with mary's voice. And this can't be because she can't sing. Mary Wells had a more limited voice than Mary Wilson. I think you're point about willingness to take risks and really push herself is what doomed Mary Wilson at motown. maybe if she had been a more aggressive personality, demanding things and pushing more, perhaps Berry would have found more to work with. we all know that BG was a slave driver and heavy task master. he wanted to work with people that were willing to sacrifice as much as he demanded.

That's an interesting point. One does have to wonder that if Mary were more assertive and self assured, how much more interest would Motown have taken in her? I don't believe Mary lacking talent was ever the issue. She had been given the opportunity to step forward a number of times since the beginning. If Gordy had thought Mary incapable of entertaining a crowd with her vocal skills on it's own, she never would have gotten spots in their live act when Gordy was Supremes crazy. He never would have allowed the show to suffer in order to placate any one member. Which goes to show he obviously had some kind of high regard for the lead talents of both Mary and Flo. I think someone in the forum recently posed the question about what if Flo and Mary were willing to do everything Diana did, would Gordy have focused more on them? The more I think about it, the more I'm believing the answer is yes. But that's more a topic for another thread.

Anywho, by the time Jean and Lynda left, Motown was good being done with Mary. I don't think there was animosity there yet, but they were okay saying goodbye. Another interesting scenario is what if Mary had approached Berry about signing as a solo? The group is dead, she still wants to sing, does Gordy turn her down or does he ponder the possibilities? But again, if Mary weren't so afraid, this might have been her first option if she didn't feel compelled to bring the group together again.

[RanRan79]

Sure, but I think everyone could agree that their "coulda been" to "actual successes" ratio [[for DMF/DMC/70sSups/Ross solo) is something most artists would die for. So maybe not an overall sad?

Oh absolutely! No question. What these ladies accomplished- especially in their time- most others could have only dreamed about. Even the 70s Supremes. Chart position per chart position, the 70s Supremes managed better chartings than any other female group of the 70s. The only thing was the Supremes lacked a monster Hot 100 number one, whereas some of the other female groups managed to hit that mark once or twice, and the rest of their music couldn't find it's way into the top 40 with binoculars on.

For sure, the Supremes are in a category all their own.

[thanxal]

Oh absolutely! No question. What these ladies accomplished- especially in their time- most others could have only dreamed about. Even the 70s Supremes. Chart position per chart position, the 70s Supremes managed better chartings than any other female group of the 70s. The only thing was the Supremes lacked a monster Hot 100 number one, whereas some of the other female groups managed to hit that mark once or twice, and the rest of their music couldn't find it's way into the top 40 with binoculars on.

For sure, the Supremes are in a category all their own.

Agreed. It's natural to want more for them. We super [obsessed!] fans want it ALLLLLL!!!!

[sup_fan]

That's an interesting point. One does have to wonder that if Mary were more assertive and self assured, how much more interest would Motown have taken in her? I don't believe Mary lacking talent was ever the issue. She had been given the opportunity to step forward a number of times since the beginning. If Gordy had thought Mary incapable of entertaining a crowd with her vocal skills on it's own, she never would have gotten spots in their live act when Gordy was Supremes crazy. He never would have allowed the show to suffer in order to placate any one member. Which goes to show he obviously had some kind of high regard for the lead talents of both Mary and Flo. I think someone in the forum recently posed the question about what if Flo and Mary were willing to do everything Diana did, would Gordy have focused more on them? The more I think about it, the more I'm believing the answer is yes. But that's more a topic for another thread.

Anywho, by the time Jean and Lynda left, Motown was good being done with Mary. I don't think there was animosity there yet, but they were okay saying goodbye. Another interesting scenario is what if Mary had approached Berry about signing as a solo? The group is dead, she still wants to sing, does Gordy turn her down or does he ponder the possibilities? But again, if Mary weren't so afraid, this might have been her first option if she didn't feel compelled to bring the group together again.

i think there was a bit more animosity between the group and label by 73. not as bad as it would get later with Pedro. but mary [[often at the urging of jean) had been pushing for more independence, which motown didn't like. mary was also a female so the chauvinism would have been at play too. jean and the group demanding an accounting of their money didn't help. and then they also started making statements in the press about their dissatisfaction with Motown. Bayou also mentioned how jean was really pushing the label hard to do SOMETHING with the JW album. she had been hard to work with according to sources, not taking direction well. and Berry had wanted jean out but mary defied him. so he was probably a bit like "see what you get?"

[daviddh]

Remember one thing here.
Diana wasn't setting the charts on fire in the early 70s and it wasn't until theme from mahogany and Love Hangover that she jumped back up.
lady Sings the Blues was a huge saving grace as well .
That said, how many other groups at Motown were making it???
The Four Tops left
gladys n Pips left
The J five left
The Temptations left
Really ,mostly
Stevie wonder was coming into. His superstar status as well as Diana.
The Supremes released 3 solid albums during this time but...sales weren't there.
Mostly because they appealed to the older crowd.
None of the young record buying teens were buying Supremes music..
They needed to drop the old hat routine and promote their own material..
I think if they dropped the Broadway ,standard nonsense and got back to music things could have turned around.
I may be in minority here ,but I didn't want to hear supremes singing , Mercedz Benz, All I Want , guess I'll miss the Man.
Or Diana singing Lady Is A Tramp.
Not for me .
I think that was old school that worked in the 60s to appeal to a larger audience but now in the 70s.
Nope.
They did themselves in.
At least Diana took control and came back with The Boss

[sup_fan]

Oh absolutely! No question. What these ladies accomplished- especially in their time- most others could have only dreamed about. Even the 70s Supremes. Chart position per chart position, the 70s Supremes managed better chartings than any other female group of the 70s. The only thing was the Supremes lacked a monster Hot 100 number one, whereas some of the other female groups managed to hit that mark once or twice, and the rest of their music couldn't find it's way into the top 40 with binoculars on.

For sure, the Supremes are in a category all their own.

exactly. we all put an unfair measurement against the 70s group by rating their successes next to the original lineup. even DRATS didn't have the success of the DMF lineup. the group also started to really fall under Diana's shadow when LSTB came out. the group released the disastrous JW set at that time and so if you compare just those two projects, it's startling. perhaps if the JW set had been more successful - both artistically, musically and financially, it would have been a bit more even. Floy Joy was a rather successful set. If Cindy hadn't left, IMO Auto Sun would have charted much, much better. the lineup change also hurt their overall image. then maybe post FJ they could have done a more solid album which would have given them a better standing against Diana's mega success

[sup_fan]

another point i've always wondered about is the role Ewart Abner played. Berry was obviously off focusing 100% on DR and the movie. in his bio, he says that when he came back to pay a bit of attention to the record side of the company, he was shocked with how far things had fallen. the Tops [[his close buddies) were gone, the J5 songs had started to falter, the Sups were declining even more. new acts weren't catching on.

so if another exec was in charge, perhaps some of the really questionable decisions about the group and it's direction wouldn't have happened. not sure he specifically made these decisions but it was under his leadership. like how the group reverted back to the DRATS catalog, the JW set, the lack of strong new material

[jobeterob]

It’s so easy to target the record company and management and that’s done so often on these boards.

But when you have a group that starts to fail and they start the infighting, what label or CEO is going to throw a bunch of good money after bad? It’s a good way for a CEO to be replaced or a label to go under.

The 70’s were the era of the singer songwriters - Carole King Stevie Wonder Jim Croce Marvin Gaye James Taylor

Things were ok for the Supremes until Touch - and then the sound got lost, the bookings slipped, the money stopped.

And it’s suggested the record company get behind that? When you have a #1 soundtrack, a #1 movie and 5 Academy Award Nominations??

These suggestions are coming from old retired guys that are thinking too much.

I’d say it was never going to happen, it didn’t happen nor did much of anything else; they had a great run but it was over.

These are just general comments not responding to anything or anyone in particular; everyone has done a great job at participating in a thoughtful polite discussion of a topic that can cause heated disagreement

[RanRan79]

It’s so easy to target the record company and management and that’s done so often on these boards.

But when you have a group that starts to fail and they start the infighting, what label or CEO is going to throw a bunch of good money after bad? It’s a good way for a CEO to be replaced or a label to go under.

The 70’s were the era of the singer songwriters - Carole King Stevie Wonder Jim Croce Marvin Gaye James Taylor

Things were ok for the Supremes until Touch - and then the sound got lost, the bookings slipped, the money stopped.

And it’s suggested the record company get behind that? When you have a #1 soundtrack, a #1 movie and 5 Academy Award Nominations??

These suggestions are coming from old retired guys that are thinking too much.

I’d say it was never going to happen, it didn’t happen nor did much of anything else; they had a great run but it was over.

These are just general comments not responding to anything or anyone in particular; everyone has done a great job at participating in a thoughtful polite discussion of a topic that can cause heated disagreement

For the record, I am not at all old and I'm decades away from retirement age. The discussion becomes less polite when you start making personal assumptions about people based on an opinion they have regarding what went wrong with the group.

Your comment suggests that the record company has no responsibility. I beg to differ. If I'm under contract to you for a certain amount of years, as an artist, I should have an expectation that as the handler of my music output you will do what's best for me. Had the 70s Supremes continued to explode throughout the decade we'd be talking about the great job Motown did keeping the Supremes on top. So why do we suddenly say "not Motown's fault" when the group falls under?

And of course that's not to suggest there isn't blame to go around. But lets be real, whatever issues Jean and Mary had, and to a lesser extent Lynda, it didn't affect the music. Motown was responsible for the music. If "Touch" was the death of the group [[it wasn't, they rebounded with a top 20 pop and top 5 r&b hit a year later), wouldn't that be the record label's fault? They heard "Touch" and decided this is the single to release. The Supremes didn't have the power to greenlight singles or albums. That's why some artists were on the company roster without any releases, or many releases, to show for it. All artists were at the mercy of the label.

Yes, I expect a record company that signs artists to its label to do its job for said artists. If not, what's the point of the contract? What's the point of signing? If the artist isn't holding up their end of the deal- and I'll allow arguments for how the Supremes fit that description- then you call a meeting, express unhappiness with the way things are going, offer solutions to right the ship, or you release the artists from the contract so they can go somewhere else where they might have more success.

The fact that the 1970s saw Motown hemorrhaging acts, especially after 1972, suggests that the label indeed had a competency problem, not the Supremes. And the idea that management doesn't play a part in how a group can float or sink boggles my mind.

[Ollie9]

For the record, I am not at all old and I'm decades away from retirement age. The discussion becomes less polite when you start making personal assumptions about people based on an opinion they have regarding what went wrong with the group.

Your comment suggests that the record company has no responsibility. I beg to differ. If I'm under contract to you for a certain amount of years, as an artist, I should have an expectation that as the handler of my music output you will do what's best for me. Had the 70s Supremes continued to explode throughout the decade we'd be talking about the great job Motown did keeping the Supremes on top. So why do we suddenly say "not Motown's fault" when the group falls under?

And of course that's not to suggest there isn't blame to go around. But lets be real, whatever issues Jean and Mary had, and to a lesser extent Lynda, it didn't affect the music. Motown was responsible for the music. If "Touch" was the death of the group [[it wasn't, they rebounded with a top 20 pop and top 5 r&b hit a year later), wouldn't that be the record label's fault? They heard "Touch" and decided this is the single to release. The Supremes didn't have the power to greenlight singles or albums. That's why some artists were on the company roster without any releases, or many releases, to show for it. All artists were at the mercy of the label.

Yes, I expect a record company that signs artists to its label to do its job for said artists. If not, what's the point of the contract? What's the point of signing? If the artist isn't holding up their end of the deal- and I'll allow arguments for how the Supremes fit that description- then you call a meeting, express unhappiness with the way things are going, offer solutions to right the ship, or you release the artists from the contract so they can go somewhere else where they might have more success.

The fact that the 1970s saw Motown hemorrhaging acts, especially after 1972, suggests that the label indeed had a competency problem, not the Supremes. And the idea that management doesn't play a part in how a group can float or sink boggles my mind.

***Excellent post***

[sup_fan]

It’s so easy to target the record company and management and that’s done so often on these boards.

But when you have a group that starts to fail and they start the infighting, what label or CEO is going to throw a bunch of good money after bad? It’s a good way for a CEO to be replaced or a label to go under.

The 70’s were the era of the singer songwriters - Carole King Stevie Wonder Jim Croce Marvin Gaye James Taylor

Things were ok for the Supremes until Touch - and then the sound got lost, the bookings slipped, the money stopped.

And it’s suggested the record company get behind that? When you have a #1 soundtrack, a #1 movie and 5 Academy Award Nominations??

These suggestions are coming from old retired guys that are thinking too much.

I’d say it was never going to happen, it didn’t happen nor did much of anything else; they had a great run but it was over.

These are just general comments not responding to anything or anyone in particular; everyone has done a great job at participating in a thoughtful polite discussion of a topic that can cause heated disagreement

uhhh - yes i expect that of the record company. they are being PAID to do so! TECHNICALLY it should be the label that is working for the artist. the label is to be offering up managerial assistance and support for sales, marketing, promotion, distribution, etc.

Also LSTB wasn't released [[and gathering all the praises and awards) until later in 72. Touch [[the album and single) were spring and summer of 71 so a full year prior.

It's great that Motown was expanding into tv, hollywood and movies. but they still had a record division to contend with and they had contractual commitments to the artists signed to that label. I'm not one that tows the line of "motown abandoned the sups" because i can see that they were investing in albums, die cuts, tear-away posters, etc. i think the promotion dried up by later 72 with JW. it would be interesting to see marketing budgets allocated to the Sups year by year.

[floyjoy678]

It’s so easy to target the record company and management and that’s done so often on these boards.

But when you have a group that starts to fail and they start the infighting, what label or CEO is going to throw a bunch of good money after bad? It’s a good way for a CEO to be replaced or a label to go under.

The 70’s were the era of the singer songwriters - Carole King Stevie Wonder Jim Croce Marvin Gaye James Taylor

Things were ok for the Supremes until Touch - and then the sound got lost, the bookings slipped, the money stopped.

And it’s suggested the record company get behind that? When you have a #1 soundtrack, a #1 movie and 5 Academy Award Nominations??

These suggestions are coming from old retired guys that are thinking too much.

I’d say it was never going to happen, it didn’t happen nor did much of anything else; they had a great run but it was over.

These are just general comments not responding to anything or anyone in particular; everyone has done a great job at participating in a thoughtful polite discussion of a topic that can cause heated disagreement

The problem with the infighting argument is that the line ups of DMF and to a lesser extent DMC had infighting as well yet those were the years Motown was most invested in the group.

[sup_fan]

i don't know that any 1 action was the "death knell" of the group. but rather a series of missteps combined with the fact that, in the US, groups tend to come and go. the American public is fickle and looking to follow a group for a few years and then *yawn* they're over them

here's what i think compounded to bring about the decline of the group
1. the 4 Top duets - the quality of much of the music was mediocre and the public seemed to see these for what they were, just an attempt to cash in. People saw Levi and Jean as incredible singers and to have such a disappointing execution just reduced the publics and dj's interest in the groups

2. too conservative approach to the group image - if it's true that Motown got cold feet about doing a SL lp and the afro cover, that is ridiculous on Motown's part. no one was gonna think that the Sups were now part of a violent black mob. eye roll lol

3. lack of "cool, hip" albums - motown was shockingly behind the times with the idea of developing quality albums around themes or a unified approach. this was something that had been going on for years and motown was pathetically slow to adopt

4. too MOR/Vegas - as we've mentioned before, the group needed to be more relevant to college kids. singing Vegas content is fine if you're in Vegas. but outside of there, they needed different material

5. Touch - this was a poor single. it added to the "whatever - they're old news" feeling

[marybrewster]

The fact remains, unless someone can prove otherwise, The Supremes remained the biggest girl group of the 1970's. From 1970 - 1977, they had 8 Top 40 [[US) hits.

Their contemporaries?

The Pointer Sisters
1971 - 1979: 5 Top 40

The Three Degrees
1970 - 1979: 2 Top 40 [[1 with MFSB)

The Emotions
1970 - 1979: 2 Top 40 [[1 with EWF)

[floyjoy678]

i don't know that any 1 action was the "death knell" of the group. but rather a series of missteps combined with the fact that, in the US, groups tend to come and go. the American public is fickle and looking to follow a group for a few years and then *yawn* they're over them

I really think that's what it was. They were on fire from 1964-1967 and like any flame, it started to slowly burn out. They were losing steam as far back as 1968 so it's not like Jean coming into the group is what destroyed them. I think had Diana remained a Supreme, they still would have continued to struggle.

If the group started evolving more, writing their own songs more and cut out the Vegas BS they would have been successful.

[jobeterob]

I do agree there was plenty of blame to go around.

Maybe a lot more of the cause were the changing sounds and changing times and many of the Motown groups seemed old.

Glad to hear we have some young guys on board that are keen.

I notice some of the other portions of this Forum have quite modest participation whereas the good old Supremes Forum remains quite active.

I'm definitely not "all in" in my support of Motown; I definitely think they were floundering as well; however they still did trade ads in all the publications for the Supremes releases.

But between them all - the old sound, the Vegas crap, the fighting, the lack of Berry's personal input, abandoning the Supremes sound - not sounding as new as the Pointer Sisters or the Emotions, it made it pretty difficult to be successful.

The difference between DRATS and the 70's Supremes was the two biggest selling singles the Supremes ever had were DRATS songs - Someday and Love Child whereas the Supremes didn't land one of those big smashs. And in addition, Diana did land Mountain which was a major success. The 70's Supremes did quite well through to Floy Joy - consistent with a really good first album even if it didn't sell that well. But it just gradually slipped away.

[sup_fan]

I do agree there was plenty of blame to go around.

Maybe a lot more of the cause were the changing sounds and changing times and many of the Motown groups seemed old.

Glad to hear we have some young guys on board that are keen.

I notice some of the other portions of this Forum have quite modest participation whereas the good old Supremes Forum remains quite active.

I'm definitely not "all in" in my support of Motown; I definitely think they were floundering as well; however they still did trade ads in all the publications for the Supremes releases.

But between them all - the old sound, the Vegas crap, the fighting, the lack of Berry's personal input, abandoning the Supremes sound - not sounding as new as the Pointer Sisters or the Emotions, it made it pretty difficult to be successful.

The difference between DRATS and the 70's Supremes was the two biggest selling singles the Supremes ever had were DRATS songs - Someday and Love Child whereas the Supremes didn't land one of those big smashs. And in addition, Diana did land Mountain which was a major success. The 70's Supremes did quite well through to Floy Joy - consistent with a really good first album even if it didn't sell that well. But it just gradually slipped away.

but Stoned Love sold pretty much as well as LC and Someday. it is one of the largest selling Sup songs EVER. it outsold Symphony, My World, Reflections, Come See and most of the other hits.

i think the "mega hits" were WDOLG, You Can't Hurry Love, Love Child, I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, Someday and Stoned Love.

[Ollie9]

If Diana had decided to call it a day after bidding the Supremes farewell, would BG have put all his efforts into keeping the Jean led group on top?. The public welcomed the new trio with open arms, while Berry had to work a little harder in launching Diana as a solo.
Food for thought.

[sup_fan]

If Diana had decided to call it a day after bidding the Supremes farewell, would BG have put all his efforts into keeping the Jean led group on top?. The public welcomed the new trio with open arms, while Berry had to work a little harder in launching Diana as a solo.
Food for thought.

or what if LSTB had bombed?

in the end, i don't think Diana would ever have just up and quit. nor would she ever have rejoined the Sups. that would have been admitting defeat. Touch Me In The Morning was ready regardless of how Lady performed. and it would have been a hit either way. so if the film part didn't take off, she would have just been a singer and performer. or maybe they would have tried tv, at least guest appearances

[jobeterob]

or what if LSTB had bombed?

in the end, i don't think Diana would ever have just up and quit. nor would she ever have rejoined the Sups. that would have been admitting defeat. Touch Me In The Morning was ready regardless of how Lady performed. and it would have been a hit either way. so if the film part didn't take off, she would have just been a singer and performer. or maybe they would have tried tv, at least guest appearances

Oh no, another reunion attempt on DWTS

[RanRan79]

The fact remains, unless someone can prove otherwise, The Supremes remained the biggest girl group of the 1970's. From 1970 - 1977, they had 8 Top 40 [[US) hits.

Their contemporaries?

The Pointer Sisters
1971 - 1979: 5 Top 40

The Three Degrees
1970 - 1979: 2 Top 40 [[1 with MFSB)

The Emotions
1970 - 1979: 2 Top 40 [[1 with EWF)

I did a whole post on the 70s Supremes' chartings vs the top female groups during the same time period. I'll try to find it and repost here. But yeah, single for single, the 70s Supremes were still tops.

[RanRan79]

I really think that's what it was. They were on fire from 1964-1967 and like any flame, it started to slowly burn out. They were losing steam as far back as 1968 so it's not like Jean coming into the group is what destroyed them. I think had Diana remained a Supreme, they still would have continued to struggle.

If the group started evolving more, writing their own songs more and cut out the Vegas BS they would have been successful.

I agree with this, minus the writing their own songs part. Other than Susaye and Scherrie, both of whom come much later in the life of the group, I'm unaware that any of the Supremes had any song writing ability. Not everybody has that talent, so I would prefer they defer to the Frank Wilsons and Smokey Robinsons of the songwriting world, lest we would have gotten "Ooh-Bop-A-Doo-Bop-A My Boy". [[Let me know if anyone catches that reference.)

[RanRan79]

If Diana had decided to call it a day after bidding the Supremes farewell, would BG have put all his efforts into keeping the Jean led group on top?. The public welcomed the new trio with open arms, while Berry had to work a little harder in launching Diana as a solo.
Food for thought.

I think BG would have blown his brains out if Diana had suddenly said "Ya know what? I've had it with you, I've had with the group, I've had it with Motown, I've had it with music. I'm going to do something else with my life."

After all the time and energy he put into making her a star, all the plans he had for the future and she gives it up? I don't think he would have handled it. He'd either off himself or off her, one or the other.

But seriously, I do think that he may have moved the stars and earth to make Jean and the group even bigger than DRATS, if for no other reason than to stick it to Diana and give the music world a reason to say Gordy had the midas touch when it came to the Supremes, that it wasn't just Diana.

[RanRan79]

or what if LSTB had bombed?

in the end, i don't think Diana would ever have just up and quit. nor would she ever have rejoined the Sups. that would have been admitting defeat. Touch Me In The Morning was ready regardless of how Lady performed. and it would have been a hit either way. so if the film part didn't take off, she would have just been a singer and performer. or maybe they would have tried tv, at least guest appearances

Diana's successful solo career was no guarantee. Even with "Touch Me In the Morning", there's a chance that if LSTB had bombed and everybody hated Diana's Billie interpretation, "Touch Me In the Morning", as great a song as it is, may not have been well received by the djs or the public. So Diana definitely could have found herself in a position where as a charting artist, she was going nowhere.

However, I've always opined that had Diana's hit making career not gone as planned, she was such a great stage entertainer that she would have built a career on her live act, like a Lola Falana or someone like that. Diana didn't necessarily have to sell records to put butts in the seats, although of course we're well aware that at the very beginning she did have trouble with that. But even then, it wasn't her records that brought people to the show, it was word of mouth that going to see her was some kind of experience, and that was even before she made the transition to the elaborate, over the top, concerts.

[RanRan79]

While I think the post Diana Supremes continuing as the Supremes made sense, I think the group might have been better served with a name change. I would have had the Jean grouping go out as SUPREME. The name change isn't radical, it retains some familiarity while at the same time signifying that with Jean this is a whole other type of thing. Kind of the same, but different. I think the name "The Supremes" was just going to always be so big that it was going to be difficult for any grouping to live up to the name. What Flo, Diana and Mary managed to do in just a few short years time hasn't been matched by any female group since. Meaning all these years later and the group still casts a long shadow. Imagine when it was a fresh shadow?

[blackguy69]

Maaaaarrrrryyyyyy can do the song with Rose and Pearl.

I agree with this, minus the writing their own songs part. Other than Susaye and Scherrie, both of whom come much later in the life of the group, I'm unaware that any of the Supremes had any song writing ability. Not everybody has that talent, so I would prefer they defer to the Frank Wilsons and Smokey Robinsons of the songwriting world, lest we would have gotten "Ooh-Bop-A-Doo-Bop-A My Boy". [[Let me know if anyone catches that reference.)

[daviddh]

Just a thought
These ladies were managed by men,
Controlled by men,
And ,I don't recall the mgrs or BG pulling some of the nonsense with the male groups like they did with the female groups.
Imo.i would have hired a female mgr..lol
But in was the 70s
How many woman working in the mgmt position in the 70s? But of course it's afterthoughts.
I think we all have solid points...I agree with most.
All the ladies were talented

[TNSUN]

Ticket prices were high for my concert going budget. Yet, I am happy that I bought tickets for myself and friends. Great opening RTL Show in Philadelphia. I thought with momentum, all the shows would sell out. I wanted to see it again.Perhaps, smaller arenas would have made the show a success. It is sad that many people missed an opportunity to see and hear these great songs in concert. A great documentary is needed to properly give tribute to The Supremes's success in varied musical formats.

[Circa 1824]

just a thought
these ladies were managed by men,
controlled by men,
and ,i don't recall the mgrs or bg pulling some of the nonsense with the male groups like they did with the female groups.
Imo.i would have hired a female mgr..lol
but in was the 70s
how many woman working in the mgmt position in the 70s? But of course it's afterthoughts.
Talented

omg
omg
omg
…

[RanRan79]

Maaaaarrrrryyyyyy can do the song with Rose and Pearl.

You got it!

[RanRan79]

Just a thought
These ladies were managed by men,
Controlled by men,
And ,I don't recall the mgrs or BG pulling some of the nonsense with the male groups like they did with the female groups.
Imo.i would have hired a female mgr..lol
But in was the 70s
How many woman working in the mgmt position in the 70s? But of course it's afterthoughts.
I think we all have solid points...I agree with most.
All the ladies were talented

This is an excellent point to ponder. The Bluebelles/Labelle's career trajectory did a complete 180 when they brought on a female manager. It's entirely possible that the ideas men had for women during that time were more a hinderance than an asset. Those ideas worked in the 60s, and you had a plethora of female groups with success. In the 70s, female groups seemed to be few and far between in terms of great success. Maybe the ideas most of the male managers had for them was a bit antiquated and not with the times. A woman may have been able to guide the group forward in a way a man may not. But I don't know how many women managers were out there, or how many were out there having great success. At Motown it might have made sense to bring Suzanne de Passe on as manager, see what kind of life she could have breathed into the group, assuming she'd be willing to focus on the Supremes and not run up behind Berry and Diana.

[gman]

Cindy should have stayed....when I heard she left again I was like...What???? another New Supreme???? Susaye was certainly capable of sonics...but the group looked peculiar, and the live work was awful...
Mary Scherrie and Cindy had the smoothest live blend of any grouping...would have been good to bring Susaye on as added attraction for the last LP as a vocal guest...like Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes featuring Sharon Paige...
Did it really matter who was singing lead if the show still entailed speedy brassy medleys & show tunes???? the live act was a mess...for years...even with DR...
the FLO's performance at the Dominion with Jean Scherrie and Lynda far outshines any full live performance I've ever seen of anything bearing the name Supremes...the tempos were better, no loud overpowering brass, or clutzy choreography...