Pretty Baby by Primettes/early Supremes

[Spreadinglove21]

If in the Primettes Diana sang the light pop tunes and Mary sang the ballads, how come for their Lupine recording of Pretty Baby Mary ended up singing lead? That song is no ballad and certainly more of a light pop tune.

[Boogiedown]

Not bad! Mary's voice works well with a flute!!

[RanRan79]

If in the Primettes Diana sang the light pop tunes and Mary sang the ballads, how come for their Lupine recording of Pretty Baby Mary ended up singing lead? That song is no ballad and certainly more of a light pop tune.

I wouldn't call "There Goes My Baby" a light pop tune either, but apparently it was Diana's song in the early act.

Mary wrote that she sang all the ballads in the Primettes. Many of us fans have largely enjoyed Mary's ballad work as opposed to some of the more up tempo stuff she sang on. From there I'm guessing we've all kind of pigeonholed her as a ballad singer, when the truth is that from a producer standpoint, Mary was recorded doing both throughout the 60s and the 70s, leaving me to believe that producers didn't necessarily view her as just a ballad singer and that may have started with Richard Morris.

My opinion is that "Pretty Baby" wasn't the best fit for Mary. She sounds good, but as I've said before, it sounds to me like a girl singing a song she's hearing on the radio rather than a girl living the lyrics of the song. Diana, on the other hand, sounds way too high and whiney for such sad lyrics on "Tears Of Sorrow". [[And on the version re-cut at Motown with Barbara, Diana sounds so bored out of her mind.)

I've always been of the opinion that Mary should have done "Tears of Sorrow", while either Diana or Flo should have sung "Pretty Baby". Mary wrote that she was late to the session and had she been any later, the group would have recorded without her and Florence was to have sung "Pretty Baby". As a Flo fan I sometimes wish Mary had missed the session. Lol But ultimately I'm glad she made it because the only Primettes single is that much more special because the legendary three Supremes are on it.

[reese]

Mary also wrote that one of her songs during the Primettes' days was THERE'S SOMETHING ON YOUR MIND. I assume she means the Bobby Marchan hit that was popular then. It would seem to be a rather mature song for a group of teenage girls. But I would love to hear what they did with it.

[sup_fan]

my guess is that Mary was probably making some general statements about who sang what. and her statement certainly seems logical based on their voices.

it is interesting that Flo doesn't sing lead on either of these tunes. IMO that does reflect my interpretation of things that the whole "flo was the leader and this was flo's group" isn't a very accurate statement. i'd have to reread the books again but i'm not even 100% sure if Flo was the First Member. wasn't one of the Primes dating Betty and wasn't she already sort of identified as a member? basically Flo and Betty were sort of formed and brought in both right at the beginning. Then Flo suggested mary and paul brought in Diana.

maybe live Flo sang more? but if we go off of the recorded work, from what we have available, Flo had a brief lead line in Pretty Baby and then did maybe 1/3 of the early recordings in 61. but by 62 she was primarily a backing vocalist, with the occasional lead like Mary. and far earlier than WDOLG. so if she was THE original and THE lead, i'm not sure that ever really played out. at least in the studio, and why would she be the lead on stage but not in the studio?

[RanRan79]

We fans know the truth that Florence was never THE lead singer. That was a myth that appears to mostly be born out of the whole Dreamgirls musical being interpreted as Supremes facts. I've never read Florence, Diana or Mary suggest that Flo was the lead singer, only that the three of them traded leads as the Primettes.

Whether Betty was the first member or not is speculation. I've always figured that Betty really was more or less a last minute addition because it is said she had no real aspirations to be a singer, and according to Mary, Betty was reluctant to sing lead, even though she was a very good singer. So it's hard for me to imagine that Milton approached Betty about a group, the way he approached Florence. Paul might have just thrown her out there. Who knows?

But at this point I think we should all be past the fact or fiction of Dreamgirls as it relates to the Supremes. So much of that has been debunked by the three originals themselves.

[RanRan79]

it is interesting that Flo doesn't sing lead on either of these tunes.

You also have to keep in mind the time. This was still the age of doowop, where group harmony mattered. I remember reading a book about doowop many years ago and the author talked about how often the lead singer wasn't the "best" singer in the group, but because the harmony had to be tight and heard a certain way, that one singer was usually better suited to lead than to blend.

Richard was already worried about the sound, considering that Betty was out and there had not yet been a replacement for her. So he brings in not one other singer, but two others to take her place. If the sound he heard for the backing vocals- and Flo is a prominent sound of both- was a certain way, he needed Flo for that job, not Diana, and certainly not Mary. [[I say "certainly not Mary" because Flo's soprano had it's role and only Diana's soprano could have been considered as Flo's understudy, which I suppose is what the plan was in the event Mary missed the session and Flo sang the lead.)

Group sounds mattered until Gordy decided his female groups didn't have to be any more unique than any female lead singer with the Andantes.

[sup_fan]

You also have to keep in mind the time. This was still the age of doowop, where group harmony mattered. I remember reading a book about doowop many years ago and the author talked about how often the lead singer wasn't the "best" singer in the group, but because the harmony had to be tight and heard a certain way, that one singer was usually better suited to lead than to blend.

Richard was already worried about the sound, considering that Betty was out and there had not yet been a replacement for her. So he brings in not one other singer, but two others to take her place. If the sound he heard for the backing vocals- and Flo is a prominent sound of both- was a certain way, he needed Flo for that job, not Diana, and certainly not Mary. [[I say "certainly not Mary" because Flo's soprano had it's role and only Diana's soprano could have been considered as Flo's understudy, which I suppose is what the plan was in the event Mary missed the session and Flo sang the lead.)

Group sounds mattered until Gordy decided his female groups didn't have to be any more unique than any female lead singer with the Andantes.

completely agree. having that ear for harmonizing is what would have set groups apart. if you were out on the front steps of your apt building or in the common areas back in these days, there were groups everywhere. and if you were cutting it with the slick harmonies, you were gonna be laughed all the way home. like Lawrence with the Four Tops. all of the members have credited him with the imaginative harmonies and excellent arrangements for the Tops.

it's curious about the A's that the male groups didn't have a counterpart. i'm assuming some [[or alot of this) is sexism. but i think gordy also just had a very different outlook on the artists. lots of books have said that he saw the key to success with a female artist or a female group. that people were less "threatened" by a black woman vs a black man. I wonder if that colored his whole outlook. that Marvin or David Ruffin or Stevie or whomever would always been secondary. and therefore the output of materials and the crazy itineraries were for the girl group [[namely the sups) and therefore using the As was simply cost effective.

the Marvelettes didn't have the vocal power that the sups did and so replacing their backing vocals might have also been due in part to just having stronger vocals on the records. with MRATVs they had enough selling power, i'd assume having the A's on those records was again mostly about output and keeping a production schedule going.

[RanRan79]

Lamont said that they would sometimes bring in the Andantes when Flo and Mary were out of town and they needed to get the song finished. That still seems weird to me. Like you said, the male groups didn't have the issue, and I'm pretty sure the Tempts in particular were nearly as busy as the Supremes. And somehow the lead vocals always got recorded no matter how busy the group was, so yeah, it's really strange the way the Andantes were used for the female groups, although I agree about the Marvelettes. No disrespect intended at all, but although the Andantes were probably the most polished, cohesive sounding female group at the label, the Supremes, Vandellas, Velvelettes could hold their own. The Marvelettes without the Andantes sound like the old Sesame Street bit when compared to the other three female groups, "three of these things belong together, three of these things are kind of the same, but one of these things is doing their own thing".

[reese]

Lamont said that they would sometimes bring in the Andantes when Flo and Mary were out of town and they needed to get the song finished. That still seems weird to me. Like you said, the male groups didn't have the issue, and I'm pretty sure the Tempts in particular were nearly as busy as the Supremes. And somehow the lead vocals always got recorded no matter how busy the group was, so yeah, it's really strange the way the Andantes were used for the female groups, although I agree about the Marvelettes. No disrespect intended at all, but although the Andantes were probably the most polished, cohesive sounding female group at the label, the Supremes, Vandellas, Velvelettes could hold their own. The Marvelettes without the Andantes sound like the old Sesame Street bit when compared to the other three female groups, "three of these things belong together, three of these things are kind of the same, but one of these things is doing their own thing".

I always thought the groups being on the road excuse for using the Andantes or other vocalists was just that, an excuse. Of course, I'm sure they did it at times because of scheduling needs. They could have the entire track done and ready when the lead vocalist hit town, therefore getting records out quicker without having to work out harmonies with the group itself.

But I also think some producers just preferred the sound of other vocalists like the Blackberries and the Andantes. I think some of it was sexism as well. What were Mary and Cindy, or Roz and Lois going to do if they weren't used on a record? But Otis and Melvin might have kicked some ass. LOL. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the male artists were replaced at times as well.

[sup_fan]

if my memory serves me right, I thought Otis also mentioned that the group didn't record as much as others. i'm not sure how the whole story goes but he was saying that the Temps supposedly didn't just record endless material that ended up in the can and therefore didn't have the studio charges and fees that other groups did. maybe that reduced recording schedule helped to prevent this.

the Four Tops certainly had a ton of Andantes on their records. and i've heard that other vocalists were added too

another problem is, aside from some of the key HDH songs for the Sups, lots of tunes were written for other artists and then moved around. therefore the girls might end up doing a tune that wasn't originally intended for them, already had backing vocals prepared and so Diana just dropped on a new lead. frankly i'm a bit surprised they added M and F to Whisper You Love Me