If Florence Ballard had signed with Stax after The Supremes?

[Spreadinglove21]

After Flo left the Supremes we know she signed to ABC which didn't turn out too well, saleswise or artistically. Some have suggested that Stax might have been a better fit. If she had signed to Stax who there should have had first crack at writing/producing for her? Hayes and Porter? Booker T Jones? Steve Cropper? In 1968 Don Davis of Detroit started producing for Stax--maybe he would have been a good fit for Florence providing the bridge from Motown to Stax?

Thoughts or ideas anyone?

[reese]

Maybe Hayes and Porter. They did some nice work with Judy Clay and Mable John.

[RanRan79]

Stax would probably have allowed Florence to be freer artistically. I know her musical tastes were eclectic, but I have a feeling that ABC wanted Flo in more of a pop lane and she may have really desired to go in a more soul direction. As such, Stax would have been a perfect home. As for who to pair her with, for me the answer is an easy one: Isaac and David, whose productions on themselves and others I adore. The thought of Florence getting a chance to be directed by those two is frustrating, knowing it didn't happen.

I always thought Flo's "Like You Babe" sounded like a knockoff Stax cut. Gives one a bit of an idea of what she may have sounded like there. It's one of my favorites from her ABC time.

[TNSUN]

Yes Stax Records would have been great for Flo. Also, Flo on Broadway would have been phenomenally entertaining.

[Motown Eddie]

After Flo left the Supremes we know she signed to ABC which didn't turn out too well, saleswise or artistically. Some have suggested that Stax might have been a better fit. If she had signed to Stax who there should have had first crack at writing/producing for her? Hayes and Porter? Booker T Jones? Steve Cropper? In 1968 Don Davis of Detroit started producing for Stax--maybe he would have been a good fit for Florence providing the bridge from Motown to Stax?

Thoughts or ideas anyone?

I think that Don Davis would've been a good choice to work with Florence Ballard if she moved to Stax Records instead of ABC Records after leaving The Supremes. Davis had been working on a fusion of the Detroit & Memphis Sounds at that time [which had resulted in major hits for Johnnie Taylor & Carla Thomas] and I think it could've been a good fit for Ballard. And I think that Stax would've kept Florence on their roster for a longer period of time compared to ABC [considering they dropped her after only releasing two singles].

[jobeterob]

It couldn’t have been worse than ABC

I’m just not sure the voice was distinctive enough or the work ethic strong enough to really have made a really successful career

[jim aka jtigre99]

Stax probably would have been a better route for Florence's solo career. Florence, however, was very complicated. She was an amazing singer, yet never really was able to show off her strengths and develop them further because she was relegated to the background. Florence also was written to not enjoy touring and was missing her family very much. Success requires a lot of work and it seems from an outsiders point of view that Diana and Mary were more than willing to put in that work while Florence seemed to feel I have a great voice and that should be enough to make me a success. I think there still would have been problems at Stax, she had a soulful voice but came in with the baggage of the glamour and pop of the Supremes. While of the three, Florence was the most soulful sounding she was known for her pop hits. It would be hard to figure where her mind would be in a solo career and what path she really wanted to take. She may have had a much better chance with Stax than with ABC. ABC seemed to try to replicate a variation of the Supremes sound but that didn't work. Perhaps Stax would have given her material to grow on and she may have had some R&B hits and minor pop hits there with the right material. It surely couldn't have been worse than 2 singles that did nothing and a shelved album that didn't see the light of day for decades.

[Circa 1824]

Even though I was never impressed with her voice, it was average/good, Flo had a name and history that could be marketed. But, was the public interested in any Supreme other than Ross? The answer is clearly no. No former Supreme, other than Ross, has ever generated any public interest as a solo artist. Nor has a former Vandella or Marvelette.

[BayouMotownMan]

It couldn’t have been worse than ABC

I’m just not sure the voice was distinctive enough or the work ethic strong enough to really have made a really successful career

Good point Jobete. We can dream endlessly on what if, but the reality is that Flo likely would not have succeeded anywhere. She was a troubled lady with a similar situation as Mary; a husband controlling her who had no idea how to manage her properly. Flo was still drinking and one producer at ABC said in an interview some years ago that Flo was at a session for ABC in NYC and he could smell the beer on her breath. After having her babies and realizing the bundle of money she thought she had was not there, Flo's ambitions changed dramatically. Jean Terrell had traits similar to Florence's except for the self -destruction gene. Once each lady knew they had been taken advantage of in their careers it was hard for them to trust anyone ever again. Thus we have precious little Florence Ballard and Jean Terrell properties since each lady left the group.

[Ollie9]

Even though I was never impressed with her voice, it was average/good, Flo had a name and history that could be marketed. But, was the public interested in any Supreme other than Ross? The answer is clearly no. No former Supreme, other than Ross, has ever generated any public interest as a solo artist. Nor has a former Vandella or Marvelette.

Diana had the uniquely commercial voice plus charisma in spades which cannot be denied. She was also guided and supported every step of the way by the owner of a major record company which probably helped a bit. Left to her own devices like at rca who knows?.
Mary should have taken the jazz/standards route while Flo just might have found success with a label such as Stax or Atlantic. Unlike Diana, not sure Flo’s voice was unique enough for her to have stood out amongst so many talented singers.

[jobeterob]

Mary should have got the Supremes back together in some form and lasted forever like the Temptations and Four Tops

[Spreadinglove21]

Back to Stax, I think Don Davis may have been the most practical one as he did some recording in Detroit, as well as Memphis. However not sure what kind of material he would have cut on Florence. Davis worked most successfully with Johnny Taylor and the Dramatics at Stax.

By the way I recently read Rob Gordon's excellent history of Stax "Respect Yourself" and he discusses briefly in the late 60s Stax started a magazine called Stax Facts. It was largely to promote Stax, but they included articles on Black life and culture and Gordon specifies that the magazine included articles on Nina Simone and Florence Ballard. So she was on the Stax radar in that respect. i wonder what the article said?

[reese]

Back to Stax, I think Don Davis may have been the most practical one as he did some recording in Detroit, as well as Memphis. However not sure what kind of material he would have cut on Florence. Davis worked most successfully with Johnny Taylor and the Dramatics at Stax.

By the way I recently read Rob Gordon's excellent history of Stax "Respect Yourself" and he discusses briefly in the late 60s Stax started a magazine called Stax Facts. It was largely to promote Stax, but they included articles on Black life and culture and Gordon specifies that the magazine included articles on Nina Simone and Florence Ballard. So she was on the Stax radar in that respect. i wonder what the article said?

Davis did some work on Carla Thomas as well, PICK UP THE PIECES and I LIKE WHAT YOU'RE DOING [TO ME]. But from reading her interviews, it doesn't seem as if Carla enjoyed the process.

[captainjames]

I think " Ain't That Good News " is better than anything Flo recorded at ABC to me, so STAX would have been a better fit if the material was carefully selected for her voice. Hayes and Porter may have been a better fit.

[RanRan79]

Back to Stax, I think Don Davis may have been the most practical one as he did some recording in Detroit, as well as Memphis. However not sure what kind of material he would have cut on Florence. Davis worked most successfully with Johnny Taylor and the Dramatics at Stax.

By the way I recently read Rob Gordon's excellent history of Stax "Respect Yourself" and he discusses briefly in the late 60s Stax started a magazine called Stax Facts. It was largely to promote Stax, but they included articles on Black life and culture and Gordon specifies that the magazine included articles on Nina Simone and Florence Ballard. So she was on the Stax radar in that respect. i wonder what the article said?

Interesting SL. We'll have to be on the lookout for that article.

While I wish Florence hadn't jumped at the ABC offer, it's hard to criticize it. The label was offering her a 5 digit signing bonus, which had to be a difficult offer to turn down. The reality is that Flo was starting from scratch. Yes, she had been a performing artist since 1959 and a recording artist since 1960, reaching unprecedented heights with the Supremes. But she was with the Supremes. 1968 Flo was on her own. The truth is that no matter where she signed it was a gamble of success or failure, as it is with any new solo artist. Everybody knows how fragile Diana's solo career started off and she was with the same label that helped make her a star with the Supremes and had the boss in her back pocket [[if you will), so Flo was probably almost assured her initial go wouldn't produce much.

In the story of Florence Ballard, ABC should have been nothing more than a jumping off point. Had Flo not gotten sidetracked by her battle with the lawyer [[obviously she deserved justice, so I am not arguing she shouldn't have gone after the dirtbag) and her suit against Motown, when ABC didn't work out, there were hundreds of labels, big and small, that she could have approached for her next chapter. But as usual, Florence was wronged and she couldn't see the forest for the trees because of it.

Stax, Atlantic, Chess, Brunswick, any number of Detroit labels right in her backyard, they all would have probably been better choices than ABC and the Flo Ballard music story could have been very different.

[floyjoy678]

Flo didn't have the advantages that Diana had. I think a lot of you forget that. And yes she had her demons that got it her way. But I think she could have been a success solo. Not to the extent of Diana but I really think she could have done well.

And youse say she didn't have a distinct voice but am I the only one who can usually identify her voice in the background? Wouldn't that be considered a distinct voice?

[Circa 1824]

Everyone’s voice is distinctive. You can easily recognize all your family and friends and coworkers’ voices. So, yes, Flo’s was distinctive, but was it the kind of voice the public wanted to spend money to hear?

Flo and Mary, unlike the 2 Vandellas and 3 Four Tops, cried rivers of tears that they could not be the great lead singer. They forgot it takes a certain something that they didn’t possess.

[Ollie9]

Perhaps the word should be different enough as opposed to distinctive. I think it fair to say that Diana’s was the most unique as nobody else sounded like her.
Did Flo have that something different that would separate her from the pack?. Personally i’m not so sure.

[RanRan79]

Flo didn't have the advantages that Diana had. I think a lot of you forget that. And yes she had her demons that got it her way. But I think she could have been a success solo. Not to the extent of Diana but I really think she could have done well.

And youse say she didn't have a distinct voice but am I the only one who can usually identify her voice in the background? Wouldn't that be considered a distinct voice?

Who in the industry didn't have demons? There's a very long list of some folks who had much bigger problems than Florence and still carved out a career.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: success in the music industry is overwhelmingly about luck. In a business where tons of people have great voices and great work ethic, only a few- relatively speaking- manage to break through. Diana Ross' story is about luck. Yes she had a beautiful voice and she was a hard worker, but had she not crossed paths with Berry Gordy, and instead ended up at some other label with a boss who didn't have Gordy's vision, what then? What about if HDH had either never been at Motown, left Motown before "Where Did Our Love Go", or what if they were rarely or never given the opportunity to write and produce for the Supremes, what happens to Diana then? Would something with Smokey eventually have hit? Mickey Stevenson? Norman Whitfield? How long does Motown keep her without a hit? How long does she even stay if she isn't getting the desired results?

Diana Ross Superstar was never a guarantee and I think we have to remember that when we guarantee Florence Ballad had no chance at success.

Flo made two huge mistakes early on: she let Tommy manage her and she got caught up in her legal grievances. When Flo backed out of the Latin Casino gig at the last minute, the booking agency dropped her. That's an obvious mistake on Flo's part, but I file that under Tommy because a good manager would likely have avoided that issue. While it's almost no question that getting pregnant was a detriment to the career, I will not call Flo's twins a mistake. However, being pregnant, and the stress that comes with it, in the midst of an already stressful time of trying to launch a solo career didn't do Flo any favors either.

Regarding Flo's voice, background can be a little tricky even for me, but as a lead singer, I find her voice to be distinctive and noteworthy, particularly with the right song. Like or dislike is obviously unique to each individual listener, and there's no wrongs or rights there, but how many people believe that most folks would find Florence's voice unlikable and therefore not worth the time to promote?

[RanRan79]

Perhaps the word should be different enough as opposed to distinctive. I think it fair to say that Diana’s was the most unique as nobody else sounded like her.
Did Flo have that something different that would separate her from the pack?. Personally i’m not so sure.

But is that what all the successful artists [[everyone with a hit song, hit album and successful shows) over the course of music history have in common, that they're that different from everyone else? Or do we as Supremes fans constantly use Diana and her uniqueness as a measuring stick for all things Supremes? Lol

[reese]

But is that what all the successful artists [[everyone with a hit song, hit album and successful shows) over the course of music history have in common, that they're that different from everyone else? Or do we as Supremes fans constantly use Diana and her uniqueness as a measuring stick for all things Supremes? Lol

I would think that could be the case for many lead singers and their groups.

I mean, I think Otis Williams can sing. But do I find his voice "unique" or "distinctive" in the same way I do David's, Paul's, Eddie's, or Dennis'? Probably not.

I love the Shirelles. But I find the voices of Shirley and Doris infinitely more appealing than those of Micki and Beverly. It doesn't mean they couldn't sing. I just don't find them as blessed vocally.

I won't even get into Gladys and the Pips.

[Ollie9]

But is that what all the successful artists [[everyone with a hit song, hit album and successful shows) over the course of music history have in common, that they're that different from everyone else? Or do we as Supremes fans constantly use Diana and her uniqueness as a measuring stick for all things Supremes? Lol

I think for the most part mega successful artists possess a certain uniqueness that separates them from the pack. Diana Ross being a perfect example of this.
Florence brought much to the Supremes, but i never viewed her as an outstanding vocal talent when going solo. Mary on the other hand might have morphed into a great jazz artist had she decided to take that path.
Diana’s uniqueness was the key element that made the group successful, so will always be a major measuring stick when regarding anything Supreme.

[RanRan79]

I would think that could be the case for many lead singers and their groups.

I mean, I think Otis Williams can sing. But do I find his voice "unique" or "distinctive" in the same way I do David's, Paul's, Eddie's, or Dennis'? Probably not.

I love the Shirelles. But I find the voices of Shirley and Doris infinitely more appealing than those of Micki and Beverly. It doesn't mean they couldn't sing. I just don't find them as blessed vocally.

I won't even get into Gladys and the Pips.

It's one thing to compare voices in a group, it's another to compare voices to the hundreds of others on the radio at any given time. I'm not into the Shirelles, but I'm not wowed about Shirley's voice nor do I find her overly unique. But the proof was in the pudding, that her voice led the group to some pretty big hits that have remained in the public's mind for decades.

[RanRan79]

I think for the most part mega successful artists possess a certain uniqueness that separates them from the pack. Diana Ross being a perfect example of this.
Florence brought much to the Supremes, but i never viewed her as an outstanding vocal talent when going solo. Mary on the other hand might have morphed into a great jazz artist had she decided to take that path.
Diana’s uniqueness was the key element that made the group successful, so will always be a major measuring stick when regarding anything Supreme.

Mega success is what, .00009 percent of the artists in history? [[Disregard my percent you math geeks, you get the point.) Not everyone was going to be the biggest of the big, and I've argued before that not every artist wanted to be that big anyway. Success is ultimately determined by what each artist is expecting. Did Flo expect to be someone with record breaking amount of number one hits, number one albums, selling out 15 thousand seat arenas? I don't know, but lets say she did and anything less would be a failure. I personally think she would have failed because the business was moving in a direction that embraced an all around entertainer like Diana Ross. Diana gave a full package: sound, visual, all lights, camera, action. I don't believe Flo had all of that in her wheelhouse. Just give her a mic and let her do her thing. So if the goal was to one day be DIANA ROSS, Flo probably would have failed miserably.

But was her goal to have some hits, sell some albums, sellout different venues? Probably and I don't think any of that was out of the question for her. I think she was a good enough vocalist and a charismatic personality to have the public take an interest in her. Diana Ross' barometer for success didn't have to be everyone else's, and that's what I meant by using her as a measuring stick. Not everyone wanted what Diana had and Diana had to sacrifice a lot to get it.

I think Flo was once quoted as referring to herself as "just Flo". I think that's how she wanted to be seen, as herself, take it or leave it, but don't expect her to be someone else. Diana Ross is uniquely Diana Ross. I would say the same thing goes for Flo Ballard. I mean that Flo Ballard is uniquely Flo Ballard, not that Flo Ballard is uniquely Diana Ross.

[Ollie9]

Mega success is what, .00009 percent of the artists in history? [[Disregard my percent you math geeks, you get the point.) Not everyone was going to be the biggest of the big, and I've argued before that not every artist wanted to be that big anyway. Success is ultimately determined by what each artist is expecting. Did Flo expect to be someone with record breaking amount of number one hits, number one albums, selling out 15 thousand seat arenas? I don't know, but lets say she did and anything less would be a failure. I personally think she would have failed because the business was moving in a direction that embraced an all around entertainer like Diana Ross. Diana gave a full package: sound, visual, all lights, camera, action. I don't believe Flo had all of that in her wheelhouse. Just give her a mic and let her do her thing. So if the goal was to one day be DIANA ROSS, Flo probably would have failed miserably.

But was her goal to have some hits, sell some albums, sellout different venues? Probably and I don't think any of that was out of the question for her. I think she was a good enough vocalist and a charismatic personality to have the public take an interest in her. Diana Ross' barometer for success didn't have to be everyone else's, and that's what I meant by using her as a measuring stick. Not everyone wanted what Diana had and Diana had to sacrifice a lot to get it.

I think Flo was once quoted as referring to herself as "just Flo". I think that's how she wanted to be seen, as herself, take it or leave it, but don't expect her to be someone else. Diana Ross is uniquely Diana Ross. I would say the same thing goes for Flo Ballard. I mean that Flo Ballard is uniquely Flo Ballard, not that Flo Ballard is uniquely Diana Ross.

Success is nothing without someone you love to share it with.
It’s difficult when assessing Flo’s solo potential as there ain't a lot to go by. The ABC recordings were for the most part pretty dreadful, while “Buttered Popcorn” was good and “Good News” excellent.
You previously posted about luck, and i think Flo would have needed an awful lot of it to find any level of success. Just my opinion. As a Supreme she was fab.

[marybrewster]

Regardless of her abilities or how distinctive her voice was, it's still unbelievable to me that in 1968 there was zero interest in recording or booking Florence Ballard. She was hot off the heels of the biggest girl group with 10 #1's under her belt. Not one record company [[other than ABC) or not one manager thought at the very least she'd make a good novelty act?

While I can see why it became increasingly harder for Mary to get a contract in the 80's and 90's, it blows me a way no one was stepping up for Flo just after "leaving" the Supremes.

Not even HDH were willing to bring her to Inviticus or Hot Wax in '69?

[floyjoy678]

Regardless of her abilities or how distinctive her voice was, it's still unbelievable to me that in 1968 there was zero interest in recording or booking Florence Ballard. She was hot off the heels of the biggest girl group with 10 #1's under her belt. Not one record company [[other than ABC) or not one manager thought at the very least she'd make a good novelty act?

While I can see why it became increasingly harder for Mary to get a contract in the 80's and 90's, it blows me a way no one was stepping up for Flo just after "leaving" the Supremes.

Not even HDH were willing to bring her to Inviticus or Hot Wax in '69?

I think the problem was Flo had trouble trusting anyone else other than Tommy. As far as HDH, I wouldn't be surprised if it was because they knew of Flo's issues and maybe didn't want to take a risk because of that.

[reese]

Regardless of her abilities or how distinctive her voice was, it's still unbelievable to me that in 1968 there was zero interest in recording or booking Florence Ballard. She was hot off the heels of the biggest girl group with 10 #1's under her belt. Not one record company [[other than ABC) or not one manager thought at the very least she'd make a good novelty act?

While I can see why it became increasingly harder for Mary to get a contract in the 80's and 90's, it blows me a way no one was stepping up for Flo just after "leaving" the Supremes.

Not even HDH were willing to bring her to Inviticus or Hot Wax in '69?

I read Peter Benjamin's book on Flo but I don't remember much about a strategy behind Flo's solo career.

How did ABC become interested? Did her management send out feelers to any other record companies to gauge what the interest in Flo might be? Was ABC the only offer on the table?

In the end, I don't know if ABC was that bad of a choice. They had fellow soul artists like Ray Charles, the Impressions, and B.B. King on the label, so they knew how to successfully market r&b/soul. Maybe the choice of producers should have been different. But I get the feeling that time was of the essence and everything went into fast motion trying to get a recording out.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Unfortunately Florence just didn't have sufficient voice or presence to have become a solo.

[Spreadinglove21]

Regardless of her abilities or how distinctive her voice was, it's still unbelievable to me that in 1968 there was zero interest in recording or booking Florence Ballard. She was hot off the heels of the biggest girl group with 10 #1's under her belt. Not one record company [[other than ABC) or not one manager thought at the very least she'd make a good novelty act?

While I can see why it became increasingly harder for Mary to get a contract in the 80's and 90's, it blows me a way no one was stepping up for Flo just after "leaving" the Supremes.

Not even HDH were willing to bring her to Inviticus or Hot Wax in '69?

Maybe there was enough knowledge within the business about why she left the Supremes? Missed shows. A drinking problem. Clashing with the boss. Strike one. Her husband, who had no experience, managing her? Strike Two. ABC then signed her and her two singles did nothing. Strike 3 and she's out.

[marybrewster]

Unfortunately Florence just didn't have sufficient voice or presence to have become a solo.

We've covered that, but to my point, it was FLORENCE BALLARD of THE SUPREMES. I'm not saying she was the next Aretha. But thousands upon thousands of "nobodies" were releasing albums in the late 60's. There had to be SOME interest in Flo.

[BayouMotownMan]

Regardless of her abilities or how distinctive her voice was, it's still unbelievable to me that in 1968 there was zero interest in recording or booking Florence Ballard. She was hot off the heels of the biggest girl group with 10 #1's under her belt. Not one record company [[other than ABC) or not one manager thought at the very least she'd make a good novelty act?

While I can see why it became increasingly harder for Mary to get a contract in the 80's and 90's, it blows me a way no one was stepping up for Flo just after "leaving" the Supremes.

Not even HDH were willing to bring her to Inviticus or Hot Wax in '69?



If one is basing opinions on sheer talent, then all of this is valid. But you have to understand that even though Flo was fired from the Supremes, she still had a contract with Motown. It ran a few more years. By owning the name Supremes, Motown basically owned Diana, Mary and Flo as well, individually and collectively. ABC signed Flo not realizing the name issue. When Motown served them and threated them if they tied Florence in with name Supremes, this put ABC in the crosshairs. ABC soon realized they did not have one of the Supremes, but just another female artist...and one who had issues. ABC lost a lot of money on Flo I'm sure.

Motown was powerful going into 1970. Any record company interested in Flo knew they had to take on the big guns of entertainment law in order to secure her. And on top of that, she was not dependable. The not dependable part may have been amplified by rumor or innuendo, but it was there for sure. HDH was already involved in a swirl of lawsuits at Invictus for leaving Motown and starting their own company. Why take on another big suit? It's not worth it if all the money you make on a recording act is eaten up by legal fees.

Flo, God bless her, deluded herself into thinking she could overcome this, but she did not understand business at all. She had like a 10th or 11th grade high school education. By the time she realized it was not about who had the most talent or the best voice, she was basically busted down to nothing. That is the sad part. Even after her plight became known in 1974, there was only marginal interest in getting her work because it was known how broken down she was. I'd have to say in Florence Ballard's case the success of The Supremes was the worst thing that even happened to her.

[floyjoy678]

Regardless of her abilities or how distinctive her voice was, it's still unbelievable to me that in 1968 there was zero interest in recording or booking Florence Ballard. She was hot off the heels of the biggest girl group with 10 #1's under her belt. Not one record company [[other than ABC) or not one manager thought at the very least she'd make a good novelty act?

While I can see why it became increasingly harder for Mary to get a contract in the 80's and 90's, it blows me a way no one was stepping up for Flo just after "leaving" the Supremes.

Not even HDH were willing to bring her to Inviticus or Hot Wax in '69?



If one is basing opinions on sheer talent, then all of this is valid. But you have to understand that even though Flo was fired from the Supremes, she still had a contract with Motown. It ran a few more years. By owning the name Supremes, Motown basically owned Diana, Mary and Flo as well, individually and collectively. ABC signed Flo not realizing the name issue. When Motown served them and threated them if they tied Florence in with name Supremes, this put ABC in the crosshairs. ABC soon realized they did not have one of the Supremes, but just another female artist...and one who had issues. ABC lost a lot of money on Flo I'm sure.

Motown was powerful going into 1970. Any record company interested in Flo knew they had to take on the big guns of entertainment law in order to secure her. And on top of that, she was not dependable. The not dependable part may have been amplified by rumor or innuendo, but it was there for sure. HDH was already involved in a swirl of lawsuits at Invictus for leaving Motown and starting their own company. Why take on another big suit? It's not worth it if all the money you make on a recording act is eaten up by legal fees.

Flo, God bless her, deluded herself into thinking she could overcome this, but she did not understand business at all. She had like a 10th or 11th grade high school education. By the time she realized it was not about who had the most talent or the best voice, she was basically busted down to nothing. That is the sad part. Even after her plight became known in 1974, there was only marginal interest in getting her work because it was known how broken down she was. I'd have to say in Florence Ballard's case the success of The Supremes was the worst thing that even happened to her.

That reminds me of a quote where Mary said Flo felt that the Supremes' ground breaking appearance at the Copa was the downfall of the group.

[TNSUN]

Did Motown have Florence Ballard sign in her settlement contract with Motown that she could not use as part of her publicity, being a former member of The Supremes? If so, this explains why people say the music industry is a "cut throat" business.

[reese]

Did Motown have Florence Ballard sign in her settlement contract with Motown that she could not use as part of her publicity, being a former member of The Supremes? If so, this explains why people say the music industry is a "cut throat" business.

This is true.

But it isn't like people didn't know who she was. And its not like Motown could tell a journalist not to mention "Supremes" if they did a story on her. A DJ could still say "Here's the hot new record from our girl Flo, who left the Supremes last year."

Flo just couldn't use the Supremes name in any of her own promotional materials, on her marquees, in ads for her upcoming engagements, etc. And I think that her publicity agent Al Abrahams said that he basically ignored the agreement and used it anyway.

[RanRan79]

You previously posted about luck, and i think Flo would have needed an awful lot of it to find any level of success.

Absolutely. But that's right in line with the point I was making. To make it, you have to have a boat load- and a butt load- of luck. I used Diana as an example because it's one easy to map out: her career trajectory was all about luck. She lucked up on the Primettes, Motown, HDH. I'd even go so far as to say she lucked up on the name SUPREMES, because I'm still not entirely sure the group's story plays out quite as successfully if they were the Shalaboombooms.

[RanRan79]

Regardless of her abilities or how distinctive her voice was, it's still unbelievable to me that in 1968 there was zero interest in recording or booking Florence Ballard. She was hot off the heels of the biggest girl group with 10 #1's under her belt. Not one record company [[other than ABC) or not one manager thought at the very least she'd make a good novelty act?

While I can see why it became increasingly harder for Mary to get a contract in the 80's and 90's, it blows me a way no one was stepping up for Flo just after "leaving" the Supremes.

Not even HDH were willing to bring her to Inviticus or Hot Wax in '69?

I'm not sure- and I'm certain someone with more knowledge will correct me- but I don't think during that time that record companies were usually in the business of hunting acts down. I think the artists or their representatives were usually the way a label became interested, unless it was some HUGE name with success that the company could move forward on. Yes, Flo was a big star as one of the Supremes, but she wasn't the lead singer. Her primary role was backing vocalist. I don't find it hard to imagine that as a soloist she wasn't a big story for other labels. My suspicion is that ABC was approached first, who then made the first offer, with the signing bonus and Flo jumped at it, likely with some "push" from Tommy. But ABC obviously found her to be worth signing, vocally and otherwise, because what record label signs a singer off name recognition alone? That's why I find it so odd all the talk about Flo not having the goods when six months after leaving the group a major record label was willing to bank on her. They did not do that without hearing the woman sing.

[RanRan79]

In the end, I don't know if ABC was that bad of a choice. They had fellow soul artists like Ray Charles, the Impressions, and B.B. King on the label, so they knew how to successfully market r&b/soul. Maybe the choice of producers should have been different. But I get the feeling that time was of the essence and everything went into fast motion trying to get a recording out.

I think starting Flo with George Kerr may have been the biggest mistake. Besides the fact that the two didn't get along in the studio, his productions on her are mostly inferior in comparison to what she did with Robert Bateman. Now to be fair to Kerr, I do think he cut a few pretty good songs with Flo, such as "Like You Babe", "Walk On By", "Goin Out of My Head" and "My Heart", the latter of which is actually my favorite Flo solo song. But I think Flo seems more at home with Bateman's "Forever" and "Love Aint Love". Maybe if they had started out together, or maybe if ABC had decided to stick it out with Flo a little longer, see what Bateman could do with her...who knows?

[RanRan79]

Maybe there was enough knowledge within the business about why she left the Supremes? Missed shows. A drinking problem. Clashing with the boss. Strike one. Her husband, who had no experience, managing her? Strike Two. ABC then signed her and her two singles did nothing. Strike 3 and she's out.

Remember, after ABC dropped her, it doesn't appear that Flo even pursued singing, instead being caught up in her children [[understandably) and her legal issues. Who knows how different things might have been had she focused on her career after the ABC setback. No one can expect success if they sit around the house all day.

[RanRan79]

I'd have to say in Florence Ballard's case the success of The Supremes was the worst thing that even happened to her.

I disagree. I think the worst thing was her inability to focus on what she loved doing- singing- rather than getting at those who wronged her. There were aspects of stardom that Flo didn't like, but she isn't on record saying she didn't like any of it. A lot of artists enjoy and hate it all at the same time, which is understandable when you consider all they have to put up with vs the perks. Flo's star should never have ended with the Supremes, but some of that was the bed she made. I'd say that was the worst thing to happen to Flo: she became her own worst enemy.

[RanRan79]

This is true.

But it isn't like people didn't know who she was. And its not like Motown could tell a journalist not to mention "Supremes" if they did a story on her. A DJ could still say "Here's the hot new record from our girl Flo, who left the Supremes last year."

Flo just couldn't use the Supremes name in any of her own promotional materials, on her marquees, in ads for her upcoming engagements, etc. And I think that her publicity agent Al Abrahams said that he basically ignored the agreement and used it anyway.

I think Al was a bit too business savvy to mess around with using the Supremes name in breech of contract. He would, however, write vaguely about Flo being a member of the biggest girl group and things like that to get around the issue. But ultimately I agree with you that the inability to promote herself as a former Supreme wasn't nearly as big an issue as some seem to think it was.

[reese]

I think Al was a bit too business savvy to mess around with using the Supremes name in breech of contract. He would, however, write vaguely about Flo being a member of the biggest girl group and things like that to get around the issue. But ultimately I agree with you that the inability to promote herself as a former Supreme wasn't nearly as big an issue as some seem to think it was.

In an old SDF thread about the proposed Flo movie, Al wrote:

"For what it is worth, I continued to identify Flo as a former Supreme in all of my press releases. and most, if not all, of the resulting news stories also identified her as such. Newspapers were not going to be intimidated by that stipulation. That's just another myth that needs to be shot down."

[Ollie9]

Absolutely. But that's right in line with the point I was making. To make it, you have to have a boat load- and a butt load- of luck. I used Diana as an example because it's one easy to map out: her career trajectory was all about luck. She lucked up on the Primettes, Motown, HDH. I'd even go so far as to say she lucked up on the name SUPREMES, because I'm still not entirely sure the group's story plays out quite as successfully if they were the Shalaboombooms.

Agree regarding a name making a big difference. Where would Beyoncé be today had she been called Beryl.
Had Flo remained a Supreme, i do wonder if her style of singing might have sounded at odds with the kind of material the group were recoding during the 70’s. I struggle to hear her on songs such as “Floy Joy” And “Let Yourself Go”.

[RanRan79]

In an old SDF thread about the proposed Flo movie, Al wrote:

"For what it is worth, I continued to identify Flo as a former Supreme in all of my press releases. and most, if not all, of the resulting news stories also identified her as such. Newspapers were not going to be intimidated by that stipulation. That's just another myth that needs to be shot down."

I'd be interested in seeing press releases where he actually did that. The one I've seen, he identified her as having been one third of the biggest girl group today without mentioning specifically which group he was referring to, although I suspect not one reader thought Florence had been a member of the Shangri-Las.

[RanRan79]

Agree regarding a name making a big difference. Where would Beyoncé be today had she been called Beryl.
Had Flo remained a Supreme, i do wonder if her style of singing might have sounded at odds with the kind of material the group were recoding during the 70’s. I struggle to hear her on songs such as “Floy Joy” And “Let Yourself Go”.

I got a good laugh out of "Beryl"!! Thanks for that. I think you may have a point.

I think Flo might have fit some of the disco Supremes songs, but I can't really hear her on the Jean era cuts, lead wise. Had Florence remained a Supreme, I don't know that she would have been the bulk lead singer like Diana- the group would likely have continued on as a three lead group like MSS- but I wonder how much of a fit Flo would have been on Frank Wilson productions? I find the idea of a Norman Whitfield produced Flo and the Supremes to be quite intriguing.

[reese]

I'd be interested in seeing press releases where he actually did that. The one I've seen, he identified her as having been one third of the biggest girl group today without mentioning specifically which group he was referring to, although I suspect not one reader thought Florence had been a member of the Shangri-Las.

I'd be interested in seeing them myself.

All I had ever read about was the first press biography that J. Randy said was sent out by ABC and it said Flo was "...a member of one of the world's most famous entertainment trios...", which was why I was surprised when Al posted that he didn't follow that edict.

Maybe that initial biography was written before Al came on board. I guess we'll never know. But he was an interesting contributor to this forum for a good while.