motown re-managing the group in late 76 - what if

[sup_fan]

in the Touch thread, there have been some discussions about the continued decline of the group through the seventies. people acknowledge that there was a bit of a bright spot in early 76 with Walking and the HE album, both with charted and sold much better than anything since the earlier 70s material. this prompted Gordy and Motown to show renewed interest in the group and a desire to manage them again

I'm not 100% sure of the timing. according to mary's book, this would be around summer of 76. her story goes that Berry and Pedro were listening to to some of the tracks for MS&S and Berry was quite enthusiastic about it. and she says it was around this time that Berry mentioned managing the group again

so it's summer of 76 and let's say they DO go back under motown for management. recording has been happening for MS&S but nothing has been released yet. the group is still doing the same stage act from late 75/early 76 with We've Only Just Begun/Tonight, Dream Sequence, Body Heat, maybe this time/the way we were plus some of their hits like HMM, Missing, Walking.

what should they do for a record? still proceed with MS&S? how should they have revamped the act? what should have been released?

[blackguy69]

I’m guessing that they wouldn’t have the support even if Scherrie did the full lead

[RanRan79]

There's a lot of "excitement" around MSS album among the fans here. I might be in the minority, assuming that "most" fans think MSS album had the potential to put the group back on the map. I'm unconvinced. Artistically, the album is very good. Disco is present and there's also some innovative new sounds, like "Dream Machine" and "Come Into My Life". But IMO, very little of the album sounded "Supremes".

So if Gordy's intentions were seriously to bring the group back to relevance, I think they should have gone in another direction, songs like Hot's "Angel In Your Arms" or the Emotions' "Best of My Love", music that blurred the lines of R&B and pop, which is what the Supremes were famous for. I still maintain the opinion that the general public was never going to take disco Supremes seriously, and some of the sounds on MSS were a bit out there, which also may have taken the public aback.

I think with fresh songs from a new album and singles that kept the group on brand, the viewpoint should have been to move away from the "Maybe This Time" and "How Lucky" type songs in the live act. Revamp the show to be less Vegasy and more hip. Shoot for bigger arenas and theaters, less clubs and showrooms.

But in the end I don't think any of this would have mattered for the group's longevity. Hit or no hit, I think Mary really was ready to move on. She had been a Supreme- in one form or another- since she was 13/14 years old. She was now in her 30s. That's a long time and it's only natural for there to be some desire to stretch out and try something new. Maybe with the right song, Mary could have exited the group on a high note. I don't like the idea of the Supremes having no original members, so with Mary gone, Scherrie and Susaye could form another group, or go out as a duo, or take their own turn at solo careers. I just don't think the group had much longer together no matter what, good or bad, Motown backing them or indifferent to them, hit song and album or flops.

[jobeterob]

I pretty much agree

No Motown group ever really regained its high water mark

Mary and Pedro hamstrung the group from some possibilities - they needed to be a lot more open to ideas and others. If the group was not going to get along and pull together, no record company was going to be strongly supporting a messy group of disagreeing people

Mary didn’t have a voice that is generally seen as commercial

Things weren’t going to be turned around and ultimately, they weren’t

I think there were possibilities in 1977 if Scherrie and Susaye had been allowed to keep the name and bring back Lynda or Jean

[Ollie9]

The groups future would depend entirely on Mary and her decision to stay or leave. I think it was a mistake to give up on the “High Energy” album so soon. “Teardrops” contained real pop potential, that if successful might have influenced the direction “MS&S” with more pop/r & b sounding material being included. Their stage act should have been entirely centred around that album.
MS&S is a classy affair, but perhaps a little to disco orientated for the Supremes. Had Mary decided to remain, a mid 77 release might have served it much better.
A far less disco version of “Let Yourself Go” is another song of real potential that might have changed the fortunes of these three very talented ladies.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I am always in the minority in my thoughts on the board but here is what I feel. Pedro should never have managed the group but that said Motown wanted the group to stop when Jean & Lynda left. Motown had no loyalty to Mary but she had loyalty to the group and Motown still she started to think and stand up for herself at that time. I always loved Mary's voice. I think on HE we had a much better blend on backgrounds with Mary & Cindy or Cindy & Scherrie. Susaye being added to the mix gave much interest with her unique high octave range, though. With MSS we had 3 individual vocalists and the sound really changed, the cohesion of a group sound wasn't as strong as on HE yet the lead vocals were awesome. It was the beginning of disco and they had the right sound for that but Motown was never really a big disco label. Plus the blend of Scherrie and Susaye behind Mary on lead and Susaye and Mary behind Scherrie on lead didn't have that same Supreme sound that Mary & Cindy [[& of course Flo) always brought to the group. If Motown realized how strong the group could be, yes they should have taken over but it took until 1979 until we got Partners and Mary Wilson both without much support from Motown-would it have just been support in name only to stop the group? I think so, Berry was never about the Supremes. He was about Diana and never really recognized any other Supreme despite their amazing talents.

[RanRan79]

Keep in mind when Mary's account takes place. While Gordy was very much involved in Diana's career, she had been slowly grabbing independence. I could see a scenario where Gordy is more keen to pay attention to acts he neglected because Diana doesn't want him as involved in her career as she did in the beginning.

That being said, I also think it's possible Gordy was paying Mary lip service. I also think it's possible that he struck up one of his bright ideas on Monday, got super excited about it, and then shifted his focus elsewhere, leaving the Supremes up the creek yet again. I definitely get why Mary didn't trust him.

I agree 100 percent about "Teardrops". That was the hit single, to my ears. Building the next album around that kind of sound [[not just ballads, of course) just seems to make sense as opposed to the frantic, bombastic disco that had found it's way into the Supremes catalog.

[sup_fan]

i think Gordy's motivation, as it always was, was financial. the Sups had been mostly non-existent since mid 72. then here it is, mid 76 and they're scoring a relatively big hit. Walking was just super, super hot on the disco charts. Bayou has mentioned in previous posts, and some of brought it up here again, that motown was not a disco label in 76 or 77. Disco was predominantly based in the big east coast cities of Philly, NY, Boston, Miami, DC. and motown was out in LA. but by this time, they were clearly seeing that was a big market to tap into and probably wanted to move quickly. perhaps they thought "hey the sups have sort of re-hit with this disco tune, the group has been know for glam and glitz which is perfect for disco. instead of developing a new group, maybe we can leverage them for a bit to tap into disco"

so my guess is that motown thought they could make money in the disco market utilizing the storied brand of The Supremes. i don't think there was anything sentimental about it or all of that.

Ran - your point is a great one. the Emotions "Best of my love" is disco/dance but it is also very much still in r&b and pop. the MS&S content is mostly either full-on disco or experimental. that's great and i do love it. but i see your point that, sort of like the JW and Bad Weather material, maybe this wasn't the time for experimentation. maybe this was time for a very cold and calculated album that was perfectly pop and r&b, but with disco elements. something that was so easy for the mass public to latch onto

[sup_fan]

if we go back to Sup 75, there are basically 3 core producers/groups of producers doing the majority of the content - the Hollands, Hal Davis and Ivey/Woodford. most of us have all commented on how strong the Ivey Woodford material is. it is very pop but some of the tunes have a good disco/dance vibe to them. but they still could be very accessible for the typical teen or fan. the Hollands and Davis material is much more heavy disco.

maybe the girls should have stuck with I &W

[Ollie9]

if we go back to Sup 75, there are basically 3 core producers/groups of producers doing the majority of the content - the Hollands, Hal Davis and Ivey/Woodford. most of us have all commented on how strong the Ivey Woodford material is. it is very pop but some of the tunes have a good disco/dance vibe to them. but they still could be very accessible for the typical teen or fan. the Hollands and Davis material is much more heavy disco.

maybe the girls should have stuck with I &W

Not for me. I consider “High Energy” and MS&S far superior albums. Combining songs from the two for the ultimate disc...
1. High Energy
2. Let My Heart Do The Walking.
3. Your What’s Missing. [[Mary lead)
4. Don’t Want To Be Tied Down
5. Come Into My Life
Side2
6. Teardrops
7. Closer Together
8. Sweet dream machine
9. Let Yourself Go. [[less frantic version)
10. You Are The Heart Of Me. [[minus moans)

[BayouMotownMan]

I rarely participate in what-ifs, but myself and several other fans years ago had this discussion.

I am of the opinion that had Gordy taken the group over again he just would have used them as pawns to keep Ross under his thumb. He did this to Thelma Houston and to High Inergy. They would have possibly had another couple of mid-level pop hits, much more dance hits, but after he got whatever he wanted out of Ross he would have dropped them to flap around the way Thelma and High Inergy did.

Gordy was a master manipulator. Diana Ross was in her thirties and was tired of his dictatorial management process. She felt she knew more than she actually did and showed this by signing on for The Wiz, a collosal bomb. She then let Gordy re-establish her recording career long enough to get top dollar offers from other record companies. While this was happening, Gordy would "punish" her by getting major hit records on these other ladies to show what he could do either for her or to her.

Insofar as production, while I love Brian Holland's talent as a writer and producer, those last two lps were glorious but they were not what was commercial at the time. I was a DJ and the business was supporting state-of-the-art music like that of Earth, Wind & Fire, the Commodores, the BeeGees and Donna Summer was emerging as the Diana Ross of disco. It would have been hard enough on Gordy to push Ross as the disco diva because Summer had the market. While it was expensive promoting Diana Ross's music in the late 70s, she had cooled considerably and the Wiz didn't help, it would have been three times harder to re-establish the Supremes. And had Mary put Pedro out of work this would have meant harsher problems for her.

America fell in love with Diana, Mary and Florence. They accepted Cindy and Jean and then got tired of the ever-changing faces. While it was important to have enough change so as not to compete with the original grouping, the last incarnation of Supremes was simply too much change all at one time.

History has shown that while we fans desperately held on to the group, and some of us still do, going into the late 1970s the Supremes had their run and their audience grew up and was not as interested in buying lps. The newer audience, which DID buy lps, had their own artists. The glamour image and sophisticated presentation just didn't align with what the buyers wanted at that time.

Perhaps if Scherrie and Susaye had taken over writing and producing chores this might have led to a new invention of the group. But judging from the Partners lp, it is doubtful that this would have worked either.

It was simply easier all the way around, for Gordy, for Motown and for the ladies in the group to simply bury that act and go on to what was commercial for the times.

[Boogiedown]

I rarely participate in what-ifs, but myself and several other fans years ago had this discussion.

I am of the opinion that had Gordy taken the group over again he just would have used them as pawns to keep Ross under his thumb. He did this to Thelma Houston and to High Inergy. They would have possibly had another couple of mid-level pop hits, much more dance hits, but after he got whatever he wanted out of Ross he would have dropped them to flap around the way Thelma and High Inergy did.

Gordy was a master manipulator. Diana Ross was in her thirties and was tired of his dictatorial management process. She felt she knew more than she actually did and showed this by signing on for The Wiz, a collosal bomb. She then let Gordy re-establish her recording career long enough to get top dollar offers from other record companies. While this was happening, Gordy would "punish" her by getting major hit records on these other ladies to show what he could do either for her or to her.

Insofar as production, while I love Brian Holland's talent as a writer and producer, those last two lps were glorious but they were not what was commercial at the time. I was a DJ and the business was supporting state-of-the-art music like that of Earth, Wind & Fire, the Commodores, the BeeGees and Donna Summer was emerging as the Diana Ross of disco. It would have been hard enough on Gordy to push Ross as the disco diva because Summer had the market. While it was expensive promoting Diana Ross's music in the late 70s, she had cooled considerably and the Wiz didn't help, it would have been three times harder to re-establish the Supremes. And had Mary put Pedro out of work this would have meant harsher problems for her.

America fell in love with Diana, Mary and Florence. They accepted Cindy and Jean and then got tired of the ever-changing faces. While it was important to have enough change so as not to compete with the original grouping, the last incarnation of Supremes was simply too much change all at one time.

History has shown that while we fans desperately held on to the group, and some of us still do, going into the late 1970s the Supremes had their run and their audience grew up and was not as interested in buying lps. The newer audience, which DID buy lps, had their own artists. The glamour image and sophisticated presentation just didn't align with what the buyers wanted at that time.

Perhaps if Scherrie and Susaye had taken over writing and producing chores this might have led to a new invention of the group. But judging from the Partners lp, it is doubtful that this would have worked either.

It was simply easier all the way around, for Gordy, for Motown and for the ladies in the group to simply bury that act and go on to what was commercial for the times.

good thoughts^.

Disco was a double edged sword for the Supremes. It was a producers medium and the voices were just that. The Ritchie Family as an example , three females that switched out members but maintained the name for several albums and no one noticed . Many groups were purely session singers with a name attached. So it was acceptable in the club world that the Supremes could be whoever and still be imagined as the Supremes singing on the records being played overhead.

That would be OK if that's all the Supremes wanted to be. But their goal was to remain a performance act. The disco circuit was one where you jumped up on a "stage" singing [or pretending] to a recorded backing track, did a couple of songs then got out of the way for the dancing to resume. That wouldn't suit The Supremes and their repertoire at all. They were better than Grace Jones.

Disco music performed exclusively didn't generally translate well into live performance. The music was more about the groove than lyrical content , and who wants to go and sit at a concert that's about dance music. It wasn't the genre's purpose, although a few like Donna Summer [with a hellofa lot of money behind her] managed to pull it off. In the concert hall environment the audience would be expecting The Supremes as mostly an oldies act doing all those many fantastic songs of yesteryear. BUT in that environment those attending and seeing and hearing them in person would've questioned "who are these people?"

I'm trying to imagine George Harrison going through several band mates through the seventies while calling themselves The Beatles, until in 1976 they were George, Joe, Randy, and ? and how that would've gone over.

[sup_fan]

so should the group have gone on hiatus when Cindy left? it's too bad they couldn't have allowed M and J to do some individual things and then regroup with Cindy a year later. seems like the public accepted the personnel changes through jean. but after that seems to be when people gave up

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Sadly in the mid-70s there wasn't much of a place for the Supremes anymore. You had to be more young and energetic [[eg Pointer Sisters, Emotions, Sister Sledge) to be a popular girl group.

The Supremes might have still kept going if they had superior material but that wasn't coming to them. It was hardly coming to Diana about that time.

[marybrewster]

The Dream Sequence was a huge misstep. Diana had already done something similar in a TV special a few years prior.

If the group wanted to add a new element to the live act, they should have thought about an Aretha medley? How about Mary doing RESPECT, Scherrie doing NATURAL WOMAN, and Cindy/Susaye doing I SAY A LITTLE PRAYER?

Or a Motown Medley?

[sup_fan]

The Dream Sequence was a huge misstep. Diana had already done something similar in a TV special a few years prior.

If the group wanted to add a new element to the live act, they should have thought about an Aretha medley? How about Mary doing RESPECT, Scherrie doing NATURAL WOMAN, and Cindy/Susaye doing I SAY A LITTLE PRAYER?

Or a Motown Medley?

i agree. as a mega fan, i love having the shows with it and hearing the girls. but in reality, if i was playing producer or manager, i would absolutely do something totally different.

what about MSS doing something to build off of Don't Want To Be Tied Down. what if they either did that song first or maybe even used it as bookends on a medley. maybe work in dialog about how women are taking control of things today and women can be in charge or themes like that. of course do it with some humor to make it fun. but then do a medley with each girl doing a lead but they're singing songs that highlight women's lib or women in charge. or women being the sexy one. or maybe it's just about how today women can decide for themselves what they want

i don't know exactly what songs but should be modern, relevant. fun and sexy. maybe More More More with Mary, I Feel Love by Susaye with some crazy high notes [[although this isn't released until July 77 but still a great fit), Scherrie doing Shame Shame Shame. maybe they do a little Marmalade. or turn the beat around?

[marybrewster]

I definitely think that would have been a step in the right direction, if not better direction.

"Jimmy Webb" was the singer/songwriter LP. Scherrie and Susaye were both songwriters. So how about a medley with a few of those tracks, added to a Joni Mitchell or Carole King number?

Or a revamped version of Helen Reddy's "I Am Woman"....We are women, hear us roar....

Or a Helen Reddy medley? I AM WOMAN with LEAVE ME ALONE - RUBY RED DRESS? They could have recycled the 3 in 1 dress, and have each girl "running" in a different direction screaming "leave me alone"? Lol.

[sup_fan]

I definitely think that would have been a step in the right direction, if not better direction.

"Jimmy Webb" was the singer/songwriter LP. Scherrie and Susaye were both songwriters. So how about a medley with a few of those tracks, added to a Joni Mitchell or Carole King number?

Or a revamped version of Helen Reddy's "I Am Woman"....We are women, hear us roar....

Or a Helen Reddy medley? I AM WOMAN with LEAVE ME ALONE - RUBY RED DRESS? They could have recycled the 3 in 1 dress, and have each girl "running" in a different direction screaming "leave me alone"? Lol.

i think that would have been a great options for the Jean lineup. i always wished Pam Sawyer had been given charge of a full Sup album. she had already done so much work with them, usually under Frank's production. and of the handful of Promises Kept tracks, hers and frank's are the best. as a follow up to Touch [[which Pam did a lot of work on), you have one of the top female motown producers and writers partnering with the top female group. this is full women on women action here!! lolol

but with the MSS lineup, i think Helen or Carole might be a bit out of date.

[sup_fan]

Mary i think you and I should reach out to Turquessa and see if she'll let us try and figure out that red dress mess lolol. Brad laughed that while working with mary on the gown book, the two of them were attempting to figure out how that thing went onto the mannequins. and they were stumped lolol

for some reason i thought he mentioned that the sequins were in a flame pattern. but i might be just embellishing in my mind, trying to make it even more outlandish! lolol

also on various videos, when MSS would wear those jesus robe outfits, the massive fabric just seemed to swamp Susaye, since she was so petite. just made her look tiny. so what the hell do you think they looked like in this amorphous red blob dress?!?!? lolol i see Mary standing like an Amazon in the middle, scherrie on one side probably all tangled up and then this tiny little head and maybe 1 arm off to the other side as susaye attempts to not be smothered by the bolts of excess fabric

[marybrewster]

Mary i think you and I should reach out to Turquessa and see if she'll let us try and figure out that red dress mess lolol. Brad laughed that while working with mary on the gown book, the two of them were attempting to figure out how that thing went onto the mannequins. and they were stumped lolol

for some reason i thought he mentioned that the sequins were in a flame pattern. but i might be just embellishing in my mind, trying to make it even more outlandish! lolol

also on various videos, when MSS would wear those jesus robe outfits, the massive fabric just seemed to swamp Susaye, since she was so petite. just made her look tiny. so what the hell do you think they looked like in this amorphous red blob dress?!?!? lolol i see Mary standing like an Amazon in the middle, scherrie on one side probably all tangled up and then this tiny little head and maybe 1 arm off to the other side as susaye attempts to not be smothered by the bolts of excess fabric

The infamous dress! Funny how it's been brought up so many times over the years, yet a picture has never come to light. I imagine its a LOT of fabric! I've always envisioned it as like a bed sheet folded in half with openings on the top for their heads. I can see why it was a nightmare to get out of; I'd guess they'd only have a few minutes to quick change. A suppose a big piece of velcro down the back wasn't thought of, lol.

The Jesus Robes [[and subsequent caftans) were great to look at, I guess, but too much of a good thing is too much. Again, WAY too much fabric and not slimming in the least. What might have worked is if they were tear-a-ways, revealing something "sexier" underneath. I've always thought Mary looked so matronly in 1976/1977.

And I love your description of "amazon", lol. I've used that several times myself. There's a clip from Mike Douglas where MSS are performing "Walking"; Mary is stationed in the middle, on a platform. She's about 75 taller than Suz, lol.

[Spreadinglove21]

I wonder if Mary demanded the top platform on that Mike Douglas appearance so she could be the dominant focal point of the group for that performance despite not singing lead on that one? Mary loved being on TV.

[sup_fan]

The infamous dress! Funny how it's been brought up so many times over the years, yet a picture has never come to light. I imagine its a LOT of fabric! I've always envisioned it as like a bed sheet folded in half with openings on the top for their heads. I can see why it was a nightmare to get out of; I'd guess they'd only have a few minutes to quick change. A suppose a big piece of velcro down the back wasn't thought of, lol.

The Jesus Robes [[and subsequent caftans) were great to look at, I guess, but too much of a good thing is too much. Again, WAY too much fabric and not slimming in the least. What might have worked is if they were tear-a-ways, revealing something "sexier" underneath. I've always thought Mary looked so matronly in 1976/1977.

And I love your description of "amazon", lol. I've used that several times myself. There's a clip from Mike Douglas where MSS are performing "Walking"; Mary is stationed in the middle, on a platform. She's about 75 taller than Suz, lol.

i like the look of a lot of the Scherrie era outfits but the execution or the end usage often just didn't work for me

those pink dresses from Soul Train with the pants underneath - the idea might have worked and been a new and interesting new look. but the execution was off. the fabric selected for these couldn't have been bulkier or heavier. they look like the thickest wooliest chenille bedspreads that a 6 year old would have pulled off her bed and wrapped around her as a gown, using her pillowcase for long hair. then when you add the pants underneath, they're just even bulkier.

the green chiffon gowns - the dresses are, overall, pretty. and the snakeskin pattern and theme was fun. including the serpent neckpiece on scherrie's. but the huge ballgown look really just was out of date. and they completely swamped all of the intricate choreography for their disco routines. same goes for those light blue sequin gowns, the colorful ones from Tonight Show.

red Sonny and Cher dresses - while the long, beaded fringe on the original designs were a bit of a mess. they really got tangled around on the All I Want piece. the remodeled versions after the Mex fire was better. more of a fringe style

the Susaye gowns - the blue fringe from Udo, the brown stripes and orange cape gowns [[both from Soul Train) were hot looks. they were sexy, form fitting, modern. the pink ruffly gowns in the Gown Book that were never worn are questionable. but mostly the susaye looks were hot. the tuxes were ok - a bit matronly.

[sup_fan]

I wonder if Mary demanded the top platform on that Mike Douglas appearance so she could be the dominant focal point of the group for that performance despite not singing lead on that one? Mary loved being on TV.

haha yeah she looked like a freaking sequoia tree up on that platform! lol it was a poorly staged production. but beautifully sung. a wonderful live lead from mary.

[marybrewster]

i like the look of a lot of the Scherrie era outfits but the execution or the end usage often just didn't work for me

those pink dresses from Soul Train with the pants underneath - the idea might have worked and been a new and interesting new look. but the execution was off. the fabric selected for these couldn't have been bulkier or heavier. they look like the thickest wooliest chenille bedspreads that a 6 year old would have pulled off her bed and wrapped around her as a gown, using her pillowcase for long hair. then when you add the pants underneath, they're just even bulkier.

the green chiffon gowns - the dresses are, overall, pretty. and the snakeskin pattern and theme was fun. including the serpent neckpiece on scherrie's. but the huge ballgown look really just was out of date. and they completely swamped all of the intricate choreography for their disco routines. same goes for those light blue sequin gowns, the colorful ones from Tonight Show.

red Sonny and Cher dresses - while the long, beaded fringe on the original designs were a bit of a mess. they really got tangled around on the All I Want piece. the remodeled versions after the Mex fire was better. more of a fringe style

the Susaye gowns - the blue fringe from Udo, the brown stripes and orange cape gowns [[both from Soul Train) were hot looks. they were sexy, form fitting, modern. the pink ruffly gowns in the Gown Book that were never worn are questionable. but mostly the susaye looks were hot. the tuxes were ok - a bit matronly.

The blue icicle gowns from Udo. I always thought they were okay. But Mary; bless her heart for sprawling out on top of that piano.

There was also a pink caftan with a Aztec-y looking neckline. Again, good in concept, not no much in reality.

I still can't figure out the pink bedspreads. Are the dresses? Pantsuits? The color isn't flattering, the cut isn't flattering, the material isn't flattering.