The Supremes Mary Wilson Jean Terrell and Lynda Laurence with Bob Hope 1973 Full clip

[blackguy69]

[lucky2012]

Very nice!! Haven’t seen this before. All three women looking and sounding great. Thanks for posting. Must’ve been early ‘73?

[marybrewster]

All that canned applause, lol.

I've never seen the second part; thanks for posting. Lynda looks and sounds fabulous. Jean is tremendous as always. But, oh Mary. Way too cheese ball for me. Over the top animated. Similar to the Flip Wilson clips.

[sup_fan]

great seeing this clip in such pristine fashion. the girls look and sound great. Jean also looks excited and engaged - no hint of the turmoil behind the scenes.

their last three projects with jean were all associations with big name producers. Frank Wilson was a dream but people didn't necessarily know him. on the FJ and JW albums, they sort of make a push to highlight this. but it seems like that's all they did

why didn't everyone make a much much bigger deal out of this? i'm sure part of the decision to use these producers was because of their name recognition. while they probably shouldn't go as far as having t-shirts made up saying "hey we're recording with Stevie who is super cool and hip right now therefore so are we" lol they could have done more

seems like they were never talking about their work with the producer, they never did a tribute such as a medley of songs made famous. Don Cornelius on Soul Train did at least acknowledge Smokey when they did FJ. of course that was over a year later from the album release. and they sort of talk a little about BW on that episode.

for the JW project, the album included some nice pics of the working sessions. were there ever any major interviews at the time about this association? why not invite a few key industry reporters to attend a session [[even if a staged session)? talk about the unique experience, build up public awareness and interest. then on tv shows, do a medley of that guy's hits, talk with the host about the project

the whole point was to glean some bit of publicity by having this contemporary work with the girls. but then no one ever built on or seemed to take advantage of this

[blackguy69]

Mary did acknowledged Stevie when they did introduced BW on Soul Train.

great seeing this clip in such pristine fashion. the girls look and sound great. Jean also looks excited and engaged - no hint of the turmoil behind the scenes.

their last three projects with jean were all associations with big name producers. Frank Wilson was a dream but people didn't necessarily know him. on the FJ and JW albums, they sort of make a push to highlight this. but it seems like that's all they did

why didn't everyone make a much much bigger deal out of this? i'm sure part of the decision to use these producers was because of their name recognition. while they probably shouldn't go as far as having t-shirts made up saying "hey we're recording with Stevie who is super cool and hip right now therefore so are we" lol they could have done more

seems like they were never talking about their work with the producer, they never did a tribute such as a medley of songs made famous. Don Cornelius on Soul Train did at least acknowledge Smokey when they did FJ. of course that was over a year later from the album release. and they sort of talk a little about BW on that episode.

for the JW project, the album included some nice pics of the working sessions. were there ever any major interviews at the time about this association? why not invite a few key industry reporters to attend a session [[even if a staged session)? talk about the unique experience, build up public awareness and interest. then on tv shows, do a medley of that guy's hits, talk with the host about the project

the whole point was to glean some bit of publicity by having this contemporary work with the girls. but then no one ever built on or seemed to take advantage of this

[sup_fan]

Mary did acknowledged Stevie when they did introduced BW on Soul Train.

but that's sort of my point. there was a small, rather non-descript acknowledgement of it. Stevie was f-ing huge at the point. and for this collaboration to really work, i think they needed to make a much much bigger noise about it. could they tour together some? could they do some joint tv appearances? joint interviews? yes i know there were a few interviews, like where Stevie mentions how he thought no one had really worked with jean on her riffs and all.

when the J5 launched, they really piggybacked them with Diana Ross and to some degree DRATS. joint tv appearances, Diana was there at the Sullivan premier and was acknowledged from the audience and jointed on stage for a photo opp, promo interviews and all.

by late 72 and into 73, the Sups were in desperate need of help. i think they should have piggybacked more with one or all of these big time producers

[captainjames]

Awesome and talented trio - could not keep my eyes all them but could not decided which one to focus on the most .

[BayouMotownMan]

I remember this, might have been Jean and Lynda's last regular tv performance before the final Model of the Year. This was the first TV appearance with Mary wearing her own hair. Timing was not good as the girls were hawking a wig line. In fact, there are photos of the ladies at a wig launching event with Mary wearing her own hair.

[sup_fan]

I remember this, might have been Jean and Lynda's last regular tv performance before the final Model of the Year. This was the first TV appearance with Mary wearing her own hair. Timing was not good as the girls were hawking a wig line. In fact, there are photos of the ladies at a wig launching event with Mary wearing her own hair.

i always thought the whole wig line idea was so out of step and place. by 73 it wasn't hip for the youth to be wearing wigs. sure older ladies and women were wearing them still but for the younger generation, it was all about naturals. maybe the Sups could have done a wig line back in the DRATS era but by 73 they needed to be focused on college kids and youth. this IMO was a career step that was too tied in with the outdated Vegas/Cabaret image of the group

[Bluebrock]

Awesome and talented trio - could not keep my eyes all them but could not decided which one to focus on the most .

They made for a stunningly beautiful trio, and despite the stiff competition from Mary and Jean it was the lovely Lynda who caught my eye!

[sup_fan]

another comment, this time on outfits

these are gorgeous gowns. but i remember listening to the costume designer for Dreamgirls movie on the dvd extras. she talked about how she took some inspiration from the Supremes but actually looked to others, especially for the 70s era. she mentioned how modest the Sup gowns often were.

in looking at some of the vids out there for other groups like the Honey Cone, Three Degrees, LaBelle, perhaps the visual image of the group was too staid. these gowns are magnificent and also very Vegas. sure you see a little decolletage and they're quite form fitting. but they're also rather modest. i don't think the girls should have been going onstage wearing nothing but a string bikini bottom and two pasties. but as they were looking to modernize and update their image in the early 70s, perhaps a bit more [[appropriate) sex appeal would have been welcome

[jobeterob]

The problem and dichotomy is that I Want You Back is a really good crackerjack song and Bad Weather is a clunky nondescript song. So one went to #1 and the other tanked.

Maybe Stevie kept the best for himself.

[Ollie9]

Probably my favourite 70’s lineup, both vocally and visually. I agree with Bluebrock in that it’s Lynda who catches the attention, though all three perform on this medley with charismatic ease.

[sup_fan]

with the addition of Lynda, they should have done more to modernize and revamp the group. Cindy's role had increased post DRATS but was still definitely 3rd. and i don't think that upset her. it worked well within the structure of the new trio

but Lynda wasn't cindy. you have a new personality, a totally new voice, new talents and capabilities. yet they basically just stuck her in the "cindy role" rather than say "ok how do we best leverage this new person?"

they did a better job with Susaye and incorporating more of her talents, although both she and Scherrie were inexcusably underutilized.

[Ollie9]

with the addition of Lynda, they should have done more to modernize and revamp the group. Cindy's role had increased post DRATS but was still definitely 3rd. and i don't think that upset her. it worked well within the structure of the new trio

but Lynda wasn't cindy. you have a new personality, a totally new voice, new talents and capabilities. yet they basically just stuck her in the "cindy role" rather than say "ok how do we best leverage this new person?"

they did a better job with Susaye and incorporating more of her talents, although both she and Scherrie were inexcusably underutilized.

It’s just a shame this lineup didn’t last to long. Lynda brought a sexy, youthful appeal to the group that was left to waste. She had proved she could sing lead, so feel sure her contribution within the group would have increased had she decided to remain. Money apparently bring the issue.
I don’t think the visual appeal of this trio can be underestimated. It’s funny how Mary who was shortly to become the tallest looks kinda petite when compared to the rather statuesque looking Jean and Lynda.

[TheMotownManiac]

with the addition of Lynda, they should have done more to modernize and revamp the group. Cindy's role had increased post DRATS but was still definitely 3rd. and i don't think that upset her. it worked well within the structure of the new trio

but Lynda wasn't cindy. you have a new personality, a totally new voice, new talents and capabilities. yet they basically just stuck her in the "cindy role" rather than say "ok how do we best leverage this new person?"

they did a better job with Susaye and incorporating more of her talents, although both she and Scherrie were inexcusably underutilized.

By the time lynda joined the group, there was already trouble between Mary and Jean. Jean was disgruntled for several reasons, and Mary wanted to be more prominent in the group. Jean was not on board for that. And I think because they didn’t get along, Jean fought even harder against that. Cindy, I don’t think you ever expected anything other than what she got, so when lynda came, a dynamic vocalist, personality with a real sense of humor and an intelligent wit, that was something the group needed badly. But there can only be one lead mic, and she was low on the totem pole. Anyone who is putting the fortunes of the group 1st, would have given Linda featured spots of the show. That’s why I bristle at Saint Mary sometimes because she did the group a disservice by not always putting its best foot forward.

[sup_fan]

By the time lynda joined the group, there was already trouble between Mary and Jean. Jean was disgruntled for several reasons, and Mary wanted to be more prominent in the group. Jean was not on board for that. And I think because they didn’t get along, Jean fought even harder against that. Cindy, I don’t think you ever expected anything other than what she got, so when lynda came, a dynamic vocalist, personality with a real sense of humor and an intelligent wit, that was something the group needed badly. But there can only be one lead mic, and she was low on the totem pole. Anyone who is putting the fortunes of the group 1st, would have given Linda featured spots of the show. That’s why I bristle at Saint Mary sometimes because she did the group a disservice by not always putting its best foot forward.

yeah i've heard about the issues between Mary and Jean. some stories have the issues arising almost from the very start. they were just two very different personalities and had two very different perspectives on what they should be doing

of course we've all talked about the stale Can't Take My Eyes which really needed to be dropped from the act by mid 70 and replaced with new content for Mary. some have said she was reluctant to stop singing it but if she was desiring a larger role in the group then she needed to shoulder more of the burden of singing.

and also i'm not have fan of the solos for Jean and then later for M, S and S. sure in the Dream Medley it worked. but overall if i was buying a ticket to see The Supremes i would want to see the group. i know it's only 1 song during the Jean years but i think they could have used the spot in the show more effectively. and by the time it was MSS, having 3 solos was way to big of a chunk of the act.

[drlorne]

There's a speeded up version of Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love on the Flip Wilson show where their outfits are modern, smart and young looking. I thought this was the youthful energy that Lynda brought to the group.

[sup_fan]

There's a speeded up version of Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love on the Flip Wilson show where their outfits are modern, smart and young looking. I thought this was the youthful energy that Lynda brought to the group.

i agree - the look and sound of this performance are excellent. the girls look incredibly hot and i think the slightly increased tempo for the song helped it. the lp and single version were just a touch too slow IMO

[Ollie9]

There's a speeded up version of Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love on the Flip Wilson show where their outfits are modern, smart and young looking. I thought this was the youthful energy that Lynda brought to the group.

The Flip Wilson performance was certainly one of their very best as regards presentation and choreography. Glittery ball gowns and show tunes should have been jettisoned, plus anything else that brought the 60’s to mind.
A Norman Whitfield produced set as opposed to the disastrous JW album would have provided the perfect platform for a a new style and image, with Lynda being given a few leads to test the public and media’s reaction.

[Circa 1824]

Bad Weather worked until the musical break. Then it became shrill and not pleasant.

Diana had too many songs that became shrill, shouty, and unpleasant in the final 30 seconds of the song, and this keeps one from wanting to hear it again. Reach out and touch and Surrender come to mind.

[marybrewster]

Unfortunately the 70's Supremes, especially after Jean, had more misses than hits when it comes to performances.

One of the key factors of being on stage is finding the right outfits to compliment the song you're presenting. As someone that's very familiar with proper costuming onstage, I'd say, generally speaking, when you're doing a ballad, you wear an evening gown. When you're doing a dance number, you wear a mini dress.

The "sped up" version of YWSSL with Jean, Mary, and Lynda is fantastic. Appropriate stage wear for the song. But then look at "He's My Man" in the ballgowns. It just doesn't work.

[sup_fan]

Unfortunately the 70's Supremes, especially after Jean, had more misses than hits when it comes to performances.

One of the key factors of being on stage is finding the right outfits to compliment the song you're presenting. As someone that's very familiar with proper costuming onstage, I'd say, generally speaking, when you're doing a ballad, you wear an evening gown. When you're doing a dance number, you wear a mini dress.

The "sped up" version of YWSSL with Jean, Mary, and Lynda is fantastic. Appropriate stage wear for the song. But then look at "He's My Man" in the ballgowns. It just doesn't work.

some fans have shared interesting stories and discussions with the girls, on a very similar topic.

the chevron gowns DMC wore for Porgy and Bess on GIT were stunning. and in photo shoots they look incredible. but dress is challenging to walk in and so doing a live stage show in it was quite hard. I don't know if i've seen many stage pics of any supremes grouping in these.

so you're quite right. the staging, the costumes, etc all are part of the package

[sup_fan]

Unfortunately the 70's Supremes, especially after Jean, had more misses than hits when it comes to performances.

One of the key factors of being on stage is finding the right outfits to compliment the song you're presenting. As someone that's very familiar with proper costuming onstage, I'd say, generally speaking, when you're doing a ballad, you wear an evening gown. When you're doing a dance number, you wear a mini dress.

The "sped up" version of YWSSL with Jean, Mary, and Lynda is fantastic. Appropriate stage wear for the song. But then look at "He's My Man" in the ballgowns. It just doesn't work.

also agree about the hit and miss. even during Jean's time. here are some key appearances:

Feb 70 - Up The Ladder on Sullivan. great intro of the new group. new outfits [[although not personally favs of mine) a medley of show tunes but very topical lyrics.

Sept 70 - Andy Williams. great new outfits. interesting set with the raised platform

Oct 70 - Glenn Campbell. again new outfits, M and C get call out lines in Everybody's. decent medley with Glenn

Nov 70 - Tom Jones. sensation new outfits, especially the green fringe. ok medley but why not just focus on a medley of their tunes of Loving Country and Together we can Make? those two were the shortest part of the overall medley. and the choreography for Stoned Love was truly bizarre

Dec 70 - Smokey special [[although taped months earlier). still using the DRATS gowns since the new gowns weren't available yet. Great version of Ladder but odd that Mary was in Diana's silver and green pantsuit

Jan 71 - Flip Wilson. oddly choreographed medley of SL and Time to Break Down. new pantsuits

March 71 - Pearl Bailey. only have audio and photos of this. green fringe gowns again. Border Song. River Deep.

May 71 - Tonight Show. only have audio of this. Nathan Jones sounds ghastly with the live, house band. should never have done it live. or else sing live to a pre-recorded track

Oct 71 - Flip Wilson. Touch [[missing any audio or photos or video) and Love the One You're With. I've heard they wore the yellow wool gowns for Touch and so those would have been new for this. the lavender gowns for LTOYW would have been new around this time and the cute lines by Jean during the bridge make for a fun presentation

Jan 72 - Merv Griffin. audio only doing Floy Joy. nice that cindy takes part of it

June 72 - Dick Cavett. did Tossin and Turnin which was a poor choice. they talk ever so briefly about working with Jimmy Webb. but the album wouldn't be released until Oct! they should have promoted Automatically Sunshine.

Sept 72 - Sonny & Cher. the new tropical flower gowns. cool camera effects at the end. very simple choreography

Oct 72 - Flip Wilson. great show overall. the mini dresses for YWSSL and the deep purple gowns for Lean On Me

[Spreadinglove21]

Given that Bad Weather, whatever its merits and faults, is an R and B song to dance to, it's odd that they would promote it on a show like a Bob Hope special.

Also refresh my memory, besides Bob Hope and Soul Train, what other shows did JML promote "Bad Weather" on?

[sup_fan]

Given that Bad Weather, whatever its merits and faults, is an R and B song to dance to, it's odd that they would promote it on a show like a Bob Hope special.

Also refresh my memory, besides Bob Hope and Soul Train, what other shows did JML promote "Bad Weather" on?

in total they did Bad Weather on Kate Smith, Top of the Pops [[in UK), Soul Train, Bob Hope. Some have said they did it on Model of the Year. we only have the Touch clip. only details on BW is based on Mary's book

The group did have a fairly busy schedule during this time:

Jan 15 - 27 Elmwood Casino, Ontario
Feb ??? Flamboyan Hotel San Juan, PR
March 3 - Mike Douglas doing SL and IGIMTM
March 9 - April 4 tour of England
Spring [[don't have the date) Kate Smith special
April 19 - Bob Hope airs
April 19 - May 9 Venetian Room at the Fairmont in San Fran
May 12 - Soul Train
Late May through early June - Japan tour
June 30 - July 11 Bachelors III in Ft Lauderdale
August 7 - 12 Magic Mountain
August Model of the Year

[danman869]

in total they did Bad Weather on Kate Smith, Top of the Pops [[in UK), Soul Train, Bob Hope. Some have said they did it on Model of the Year. we only have the Touch clip. only details on BW is based on Mary's book

The group did have a fairly busy schedule during this time:

Jan 15 - 27 Elmwood Casino, Ontario
Feb ??? Flamboyan Hotel San Juan, PR
March 3 - Mike Douglas doing SL and IGIMTM
March 9 - April 4 tour of England
Spring [[don't have the date) Kate Smith special
April 19 - Bob Hope airs
April 19 - May 9 Venetian Room at the Fairmont in San Fran
May 12 - Soul Train
Late May through early June - Japan tour
June 30 - July 11 Bachelors III in Ft Lauderdale
August 7 - 12 Magic Mountain
August Model of the Year

My research has shown that The Kate Smith Special started airing in syndication starting in June 1973. It was taped some time in the spring [when BW would've still been understandable to be promoting]. When you've laid out their itinerary like that, it's clear that BW shows a tipping point. Where was the "new single" by June 1973 [or earlier] after the failure of BW? Nothing. Apparently they were left to tour at that point to bring in needed cash when it seemed no producers were looking to provide a new single for the group. [These developments were nothing new to us long-time posters who have discussed this before, of course.]

[sup_fan]

My research has shown that The Kate Smith Special started airing in syndication starting in June 1973. It was taped some time in the spring [when BW would've still been understandable to be promoting]. When you've laid out their itinerary like that, it's clear that BW shows a tipping point. Where was the "new single" by June 1973 [or earlier] after the failure of BW? Nothing. Apparently they were left to tour at that point to bring in needed cash when it seemed no producers were looking to provide a new single for the group. [These developments were nothing new to us long-time posters who have discussed this before, of course.]

in previous posts, Bayou has helped fill in more of what was going on. hoping i recap it correctly here

jean was very very upset at the dismal response to the JW album. she'd apparently worked her butt off on that one and it seems motown knew it was a dud from Day 1. in June of 72 they appeared on tv and did Tossin and talked about the album. but then it wasn't released until fall. this is pure speculation but i wonder if motown was hesitant to release it at all and then finally got around to putting it out there. maybe that explains the total lack of promotion for it and how none of the JW tunes were singles.

anyway with this failure combined with the problems both within the group and with motown, jean was looking to quit. the idea of working with Stevie and BW was supposedly sort of a last ditch effort for Jean. let's try one more time. it was released in late March and entered the charts in late April at 106. by May it was still just sitting around 103 and so the writing was on the wall. in April/May was also when the group played the Fairmont in SFO and got SCATHING reviews. Both of these combined to have jean say "that's it." they then worked to coordinate when her last date would be with the group and the Aug Magic Mtn

[danman869]

in previous posts, Bayou has helped fill in more of what was going on. hoping i recap it correctly here

jean was very very upset at the dismal response to the JW album. she'd apparently worked her butt off on that one and it seems motown knew it was a dud from Day 1. in June of 72 they appeared on tv and did Tossin and talked about the album. but then it wasn't released until fall. this is pure speculation but i wonder if motown was hesitant to release it at all and then finally got around to putting it out there. maybe that explains the total lack of promotion for it and how none of the JW tunes were singles.

anyway with this failure combined with the problems both within the group and with motown, jean was looking to quit. the idea of working with Stevie and BW was supposedly sort of a last ditch effort for Jean. let's try one more time. it was released in late March and entered the charts in late April at 106. by May it was still just sitting around 103 and so the writing was on the wall. in April/May was also when the group played the Fairmont in SFO and got SCATHING reviews. Both of these combined to have jean say "that's it." they then worked to coordinate when her last date would be with the group and the Aug Magic Mtn

Thanks for the recap, Grant! You're right that the JW album was recorded and completed by June '72--and then the group took one of the upbeat tunes [T&T] and started to perform/promote it publicly...but then nothing from Motown--no single, no album. It's very possible that TPTB at Motown listened to PABJW and said, "oh, sh!t..." and conceded there wasn't much that was marketable in terms of "The Supremes" and to AM [or FM] radio. Of course, the group recorded "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" in August '72 and then it was released as a single on 9/15/72 ["hey--what happened to our JW album?!"]. By late October 1972, "Pippin" [the source of IGIMTM and many other songs recorded and released by Motown biggies to promote the Motown-backed Broadway musical] opened. Maybe some folks were confused by IGIMTM, wondering, what the context of the song was, why it was so different from previous Supremes records, etc. Although copies of the 45 label I've seen on the web show it being from "Pippin," before the end of October, what would that make a difference to someone in St. Louis? Or Dallas? Or Seattle? Although Ed Sullivan was good for having Broadway show material featured on his program, it was long-gone by late 1972. I doubt Pippin material was being performed by the cast or other celebrities on all the variety shows of the time as a way of promotion for the show. Were the Supremes given the wrong song? Should they have been given "Corner Of The Sky" instead of the J5? What about "Morning Glow", "Kind Of Woman", or even "Magic To Do"? Heck, should they have just made any Pippin song they'd recorded a B-side and then they could've sung it along with their "actual" single on TV shows and in concert?

I think the fact that Motown literally tacked IGIMTM onto the Jimmy Webb album when it was finally released in November 1972 was likely done just to see if they could spur any PABJW album sales. Maybe the single would do well [though we know it didn't--Pop #85, AC #17] and that would inspire folks to check out the album that included it? Nope. Pop LP #129 isn't a great showing from the general buying public.

What sucks is that didn't Motown put The Supremes together with Jimmy Webb? It wasn't as though Mary--or Jean--had been clamoring for years, "we need to work with Jimmy Webb!" So... if Motown didn't take enough care to see that the JW album would be marketable...that's not Mary's fault or Jean's either. I see Jean's point of view of saying, "this is ridiculous and I've had enough. I work hard on something and the company doesn't do a thing with it," but... I do see Mary's point of view [especially as a long-term company lady] that she hoped Motown would somehow come around to "doing the right thing" by the group. Motown made a lot of wrong choices with the group--not just Mary. I'd even say Jean didn't help things at times. A bad attitude can affect a lot of other things--and people--around you.

Regarding "Bad Weather," I never felt Stevie was the right producer for The Supremes. It was great that [if entirely true] that Lynda said, "I'll talk to Stevie!" after they had a working relationship before her entry to the group, but... wrong producer. I would have much rather that they tried to worked with Norman Whitfield if a big-name producer was wanted. If not, I would've liked seeing them go back to Frank Wilson. Or how about Pam Sawyer and Gloria Jones? Johnny Bristol? Joe Porter? Stevie had created a sound at that point that worked for HIM and sort of plastering it onto a girl group didn't work, IMO. And of all the outside producers that they could've chosen, why the hell Jimmy Webb? Talented man, but not a good fit for The Supremes--even with Diana Ross at the lead! What about Philly producers? Someone else? Anyone else?

[Spreadinglove21]

Kate Smith special is another odd choice to promote Bad Weather. I know that was their current single so they have to promote it, but doing shows like Bob Hope [[even if he got good ratings) and Kate Smith may have been another nail in the coffin that the Supremes were old hat and a nostalgia/legacy act past their prime.

[TheMotownManiac]

Kate Smith special is another odd choice to promote Bad Weather. I know that was their current single so they have to promote it, but doing shows like Bob Hope [[even if he got good ratings) and Kate Smith may have been another nail in the coffin that the Supremes were old hat and a nostalgia/legacy act past their prime.

I don’t think they would suffer much from being judged by what show they were on, as much as they would buy the demographic and it tracks. I can’t imagine a less receptive audience to bad weather than a syndicated Kate Smith special. Bob Hope is just a small step better, but clearly not their demographics either. if they did Mike Douglas early in the month, and bad weather was released March 22, I wonder why they didn’t try to time those things more appropriately. It’s not going to help the group that much to see them do stoned love again three years after it came out.

I don’t think if you book them and every high school in America that bad weather would’ve gotten many adds on radio and that it just was not radio friendly for the day At all. Not even a little bit. What Stevie can do is not necessarily what Jean Terrell can do. And that 45 sounded like a squeegee mess to just about everyone then heard it. Even payola couldn’t have saved it because even if it did get played no one was going to buy it. There is so much going against him at that time: the record itself, the Matronly image of the group, the less than helpful TV appearances, The lack of direction and barely a blip for over two years in the top 20 pop or top 10 R&B. They needed a pop song to put them over and they just didn’t have one. No group can make it without decent material.

[sup_fan]

i agree the tv gigs the girls were on weren't necessarily the most hip. Shame they didn't appear on Midnight Special. it premiered in Aug 72 so it could have been an option.

[TheMotownManiac]

Here is diana ross and Bob Hope doing the same material he did for years later with the Supremes. Ironic isn’t it? Those Old vaudevillians often reused their material, reusing it with the same group is funny.

https://youtu.be/j-q0iQE9qAA

[sup_fan]

this is really weird. in the past, i've shared the Billboard chart data for various Sups or DR singles and albums. we've not really discussed the chart data for BW before so here it is - it's a truly unusual one!

Released March 73 [[don't have the exact release date, just month)
entered chart on April 21 so roughly a month later, which is normal

106 - 105 - 105 - 103 - 103 - 101 - 101 - 87 - 103 - 101 - 101 - 101 - 108 - 108

that's a relatively long time on the chart. same number of weeks as Stoned Love! meanwhile Touch was on the charts for only 4 weeks. IGIMTM was only 7 weeks.

that peak at 87 occured the week of June 9. the Soul Train appearance was on May 12 so maybe that show drove some sales? or if they repeated that show over the next weeks? But to sit at the low 100s for 7 weeks is weird. Starting at 106 is a low entry point for a Supremes singles but not completely unheard of. The Happening entered at 112. Generally though the girls' singles entered in the 70s or 80s. sometimes the 60s.

Also weird is the long tail. after peaking, most singles drop off fast. but to spend another 6 weeks hovering around the low 100s is bizarre.

[sup_fan]

i've wondered if Motown should have done a Various Artist album for Pippin, similar to Key To The Kingdom. Maybe the J5, The Supremes, The Temps, GKATPS, maybe Martha or Rare Earth?

IGIMTM is so random and frankly quite dreary. I agree that Corner of the Sky would have worked MUCH better for the girls. I like Diana's live version on the Caesar album. i think Jean would have rocked this. maybe if the Sups did a medley of tunes from the show in their act? something to help provide some context. it's just so one-off.

[sup_fan]

Frank had actually hit it big with Eddie Kendricks with Boogie Down and Keep On Truckin in 73. Around the time he did Love Train with the Sups. Also Frank produced Eddie's debut album, which released in April 71.

[RanRan79]

Frank had actually hit it big with Eddie Kendricks with Boogie Down and Keep On Truckin in 73. Around the time he did Love Train with the Sups. Also Frank produced Eddie's debut album, which released in April 71.

Duh. Clearly I wasn't thinking. But even judging by "Love Train" [[which I love btw), I'm not sure merging with Frank again would have yielded Eddie K type results.

[mowest]

Could Van McCoy have done some magic with “the girls?"

[RanRan79]

Could Van McCoy have done some magic with “the girls?"

Might have been a great idea for the Scherrie grouping, for sure.

[daviddh]

i thought this was the best line up since the original trio
they look and sound great here.
i like this version of BW better than what got released ,although i do like the version on the box set. like how it fades in and then out. i think on the 45 version , just to much going on. would love a remix of this. maybe Kevin Reeves could work his magic on this , if.....

[sup_fan]

i thought this was the best line up since the original trio
they look and sound great here.
i like this version of BW better than what got released ,although i do like the version on the box set. like how it fades in and then out. i think on the 45 version , just to much going on. would love a remix of this. maybe Kevin Reeves could work his magic on this , if.....

i've always wondered why they faded out and then back in. if they were doing the extended, why not just let it run full out until the tape ends. no fade

[marybrewster]

Does anyone know how exactly the Supremes got hooked up with Jimmy Webb? Who pitched the idea?

I'm familiar with some of his work, but is it safe to say his peak was in the late 60's? So who thought it was a good idea to bring him in in 1972?

There clearly were other hotter and up and coming producers at the time.

[sup_fan]

Webb's 60s work was definitely his most commercially successful. by the early 70s he was doing some of his own albums and while some decent critical reviews, they all underperformed. he was still definitely viewed as one of the "singer/songwriters" of the era.

i'm guessing but it might also be a budget issue. Maybe since Jimmy wasn't quite as big as some others like Carolle King, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, etc. and so wasn't as expensive.

in Supreme Faith mary states that their manager, Wayne Weisbert, was one that helped ink the deal with Jimmy. there isn't much more info available. I believe Mary also mentions her pleasant surprise that motown was bringing in an outside producer, which was essentially unheard of.

[marybrewster]

Weisbert had worked for the William Norris Agency, and apparently had represented Beau Bridges in the 1960's.

I wonder if Wayne had any ties to JW?

[Spreadinglove21]

Over the recent holidays I read Webb's memoir The Cake and the Rain. He devoted a couple of pages to the Supremes album. He admits in the end the album ended up not sounding like how the Supremes should sound. He takes the blame for the choices he made, particularly beefing up the background sound with additional singers. He was perturbed by the album cover shot of the back lit dandelion and concerned when Motown delayed the release and ultimately included "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" on it and made it the single. His memory was faulty though in that he writes that he was asked to do the album because Jean had just replaced Diana in the group. Some editor should have caught that mistake and quelched it. Webb was getting heavy into drug use in this time which may explain the commercial fall off of his work though he could still write and/or arrange some good songs as "5:30 Plane" can attest.

I respect the Webb album for its ambition. And there are some good songs on it IMO. Especially 5:30 Plane, one of my favorite Supremes recordings ever. I wonder if Motown hired Webb because of how good Thelma Houston's 1969 Sunshower album was? That's a really good album with Webb and Houston at the top of their games, even if that album didn't light the charts on fire. A shame The Supremes project with Webb didn't match Sunshower in terms of artistry.

[danman869]

Over the recent holidays I read Webb's memoir The Cake and the Rain. He devoted a couple of pages to the Supremes album. He admits in the end the album ended up not sounding like how the Supremes should sound. He takes the blame for the choices he made, particularly beefing up the background sound with additional singers. He was perturbed by the album cover shot of the back lit dandelion and concerned when Motown delayed the release and ultimately included "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" on it and made it the single. His memory was faulty though in that he writes that he was asked to do the album because Jean had just replaced Diana in the group. Some editor should have caught that mistake and quelched it. Webb was getting heavy into drug use in this time which may explain the commercial fall off of his work though he could still write and/or arrange some good songs as "5:30 Plane" can attest.

I respect the Webb album for its ambition. And there are some good songs on it IMO. Especially 5:30 Plane, one of my favorite Supremes recordings ever. I wonder if Motown hired Webb because of how good Thelma Houston's 1969 Sunshower album was? That's a really good album with Webb and Houston at the top of their games, even if that album didn't light the charts on fire. A shame The Supremes project with Webb didn't match Sunshower in terms of artistry.

Spreading, thanks for sharing the info from Webb's autobiography. At least he took time in his book to even acknowledge working with The Supremes--including admitting to regrets and frustrations. Interesting that his drug use was so heavy at that time--maybe it contributed to the poor choices with the album? I do have to agree with you that there are a few good songs on the JW album. If you can overlook the choral backgrounds [and if you're a Supremes fan and can deal with The Andantes being added or solely on Supremes tracks, I think you can 50 years later overlook the choral backgrounds on JW!] then you can hear some of the songs being really good.

I'd forgotten about the Thelma Houston album [though I have AND love it], but you have a good point about whether this was considered good reasoning at the time about how JW could work with a female soul singer and come up with really good results. Sadly, "Sunshower" was a much better-produced album than PABJW [with several better songs] and three years in the music business could sometimes be considered a really long time. I think I'll give "Sunshower" another listen tonight!

[sup_fan]

is anyone especially familiar with Webb's work with the 5th Dimension? other than them, seems like Jimmy mostly worked with solo artists. it's very different to produce a group. As we saw with the Sups moving into the 70s and with Frank, he really took a group approach to things. planning material around the vocalists, bringing the other members more into the productions along with the lead.

with 5D, did Jimmy just approach them as a lead singer and backing vocalists or as a group? seems that his work with the Supremes really was just a solo album for jean aside from the 1 song with Mary. there's little to no interplay between the lead and backing vocals.

[Spreadinglove21]

is anyone especially familiar with Webb's work with the 5th Dimension? other than them, seems like Jimmy mostly worked with solo artists. it's very different to produce a group. As we saw with the Sups moving into the 70s and with Frank, he really took a group approach to things. planning material around the vocalists, bringing the other members more into the productions along with the lead.

with 5D, did Jimmy just approach them as a lead singer and backing vocalists or as a group? seems that his work with the Supremes really was just a solo album for jean aside from the 1 song with Mary. there's little to no interplay between the lead and backing vocals.

Magic Garden does a good job of emphasizing the 5th as a group, especially on the title song, Carpet Man, Orange Air, and Paper Cup. However Billy Davis has a few leads such as Worse That Can Happen to Me. Marilyn and Florence get to shine individually and collectively on The Girls Song.

Earthbound I haven't listened to as much as it's not as good. Billy, Marilyn and Florence each get to sing lead on a couple of songs and there are ensemble efforts as well. IMO Florence got the best songs to sing lead on.

Webb can produce a group and in his book he has great respect for the talents and abilities of the 5th Dimension and was blown away by their talent and vocal prowess.

Perhaps he focussed on Jean for the Supremes album because he really liked what she brought to the table. He repeats same story as he did in the This is the Story box set liner notes about pushing Jean hard in the studio and her bringing in the doctor's note. Maybe he considered her another Thelma Houston and focused on her? But alas he must not have realized he pushed Jean to end up sounding shrill on a few tracks, especially Beyond Myself. Sunshower and Supremes P/A by Webb have one song in common: Cheap Lovin. Jean's version is fine, but Thelma's is better.

[danman869]

Magic Garden does a good job of emphasizing the 5th as a group, especially on the title song, Carpet Man, Orange Air, and Paper Cup. However Billy Davis has a few leads such as Worse That Can Happen to Me. Marilyn and Florence get to shine individually and collectively on The Girls Song.

Earthbound I haven't listened to as much as it's not as good. Billy, Marilyn and Florence each get to sing lead on a couple of songs and there are ensemble efforts as well. IMO Florence got the best songs to sing lead on.

Webb can produce a group and in his book he has great respect for the talents and abilities of the 5th Dimension and was blown away by their talent and vocal prowess.

Perhaps he focussed on Jean for the Supremes album because he really liked what she brought to the table. He repeats same story as he did in the This is the Story box set liner notes about pushing Jean hard in the studio and her bringing in the doctor's note. Maybe he considered her another Thelma Houston and focused on her? But alas he must not have realized he pushed Jean to end up sounding shrill on a few tracks, especially Beyond Myself. Sunshower and Supremes P/A by Webb have one song in common: Cheap Lovin. Jean's version is fine, but Thelma's is better.

Spreading, I thought Bones Howe produced the Magic Garden LP [[written and arranged and conducted by Jimmy Webb, of course) and Jimmy flat out handled everything on the later Earthbound? I figure the arrangements are done within what the producer generally wants to hear on the final results. So... I think of Magic Garden as a Bones Howe album with strong Jimmy Webb flavors, but Earthbound as a Jimmy Webb album through-and-through.

And I agree--Cheap Lovin' by Thelma came off just as rocking but much better than Jean's.

[Spreadinglove21]

Spreading, thanks for sharing the info from Webb's autobiography. At least he took time in his book to even acknowledge working with The Supremes--including admitting to regrets and frustrations. Interesting that his drug use was so heavy at that time--maybe it contributed to the poor choices with the album? I do have to agree with you that there are a few good songs on the JW album. If you can overlook the choral backgrounds [and if you're a Supremes fan and can deal with The Andantes being added or solely on Supremes tracks, I think you can 50 years later overlook the choral backgrounds on JW!] then you can hear some of the songs being really good.

I'd forgotten about the Thelma Houston album [though I have AND love it], but you have a good point about whether this was considered good reasoning at the time about how JW could work with a female soul singer and come up with really good results. Sadly, "Sunshower" was a much better-produced album than PABJW [with several better songs] and three years in the music business could sometimes be considered a really long time. I think I'll give "Sunshower" another listen tonight!

After reading the book and thinking of the difference in quality between Sunshower and Supremes produced and arranged by Jimmy Webb, I decided to compare the two albums Webb produced on the 5th Dimension--Magic Garden and Earthbound. While Earthbound has some good cuts and the vocals are always solid from the 5th, it's a big step down in quality from Magic Garden. Webb doesn't discuss Earthbound in the book [[it closes in late 1973 and he's still doing drugs but growing ever more disgusted with the life) but yeah he didn't have the same touch as he did in the mid to late 60s. I also listened to his solo 70s albums. I like them and they're not as overproduced as Earthbound or Supremes, but then again he knew the limitations of his voice and had enough perspective not to weigh down his voice, music and lyrics in big productions.