Reflections

[daviddh]

Could the Reflections album considered to be the Supremes Sgt Pepper.
Could it have been.
The single Reflections was always a favorite of mine, and although I love side 1, side 2 is a bit lackluster at times.
I always thought the technical sounds we hear on the single, could have been ,[[if I were producing) ,through out the album, giving the entire album a more modern feel.
I think FCT would have benefitted from a newer mix and a bit tweeking on tracks on side two, it could have been a stronger set
Any opinions on this set

[RanRan79]

I can't speak to Sgt Pepper as I have never heard the album, nor am I interested in hearing it. Could it have been an album that transitioned the Supremes from a former stage to a new one? Sure. What I mean by that is, for instance, IMO "My World" and the subsequent singles elevated the group from "girl group" to grown women. The Symphony album sort of did the same, but then the group regressed back into girl group for both A Go-Go and Sing HDH, both of which were filled with covers which ranged from great to poor. [[Sing R&H is obviously more adult material, but that was the point of the specialty albums anyway. My focus here is on the regular albums.)

Reflections side 1 is damn near perfect. "In and Out of Love" kind of throws things off a bit, being so perky, but I think ultimately it works. Side 2 is messed up. For me, and one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of the album, is side 1 seems to have gotten serious consideration for updating the new group with a new direction, while side 2 appears to be the result of someone saying "screw this, I'm ready to go home, just throw some stuff on it and let's get out of here".

"What the World Needs" is a horrible cover. The version the guys put together for the A Go Go EE makes it almost listenable, but the version on the Reflections album sucks. One would think the song was ripe for what the Supremes could bring, but Diana doesn't bring any of her usual flair, and Flo and Mary sound bored as hell. I think the track could have gotten away with Diana's vocal, but that coupled with Flo and Mary's lackluster performance makes this one of the Supremes' worst vocal performances IMO. If any Supremes track ever needed the Andantes, this is it. The song could have worked if it had been re-worked with a completely new sound. I wonder what it could have been in the hands of Norman Whitfield. But side 2 has too many covers anyway.

While I've actually come to like their "Up, Up and Away" in recent years, the album didn't need it. I still think "Ode" needed one of two things to make it a standout: either have Diana sing it in her lower register, or have Mary do it. Diana sounds too light for such a heavy song. I like it as is, but I could have loved it with these changes. "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things" is a nice cover, but it doesn't fit the tone of side 1 at all. I like "Then", but again, we really didn't need another cover song. All of the covers should have ultimately been replaced with original tunes.

They put one original on side 2, "Misery", and again, it just didn't fit the tone of side 1. Maybe if the track was beefed up it could have worked. As is, it sounds like what it was: filler from 1966.

Motown lost a real opportunity to introduce DRATS as a serious album group with Reflections, and they dropped the ball.

[daviddh]

Totally agree with your assessment

[sup_fan]

i'm not sure this album could ever have emerged into a Sgt Pepper. i too have not heard that album but the general assessment of it is that it was a groundbreaking achievement for the Bs. supposedly in the same class as Pet Sounds from the Beach Boys [[again, haven't listened). Pepper was released in May 67, just prior to the Reflections single. Pet Sounds was a year prior, May 66

the song Reflections is an amazing tune and i'd say pretty close to groundbreaking too. no one in the r&b field, that i'm aware of, had attempted to really explore combining the avant guarde psychedelic sounds coming out of San Fransisco. the SFO scene was really new and cutting edge. the beattles obviously were hugely influenced by it and the result was St P

meanwhile, southern California/LA was super hot with "sunshine pop." the Beach Boys, Mamas and the Papas, 5th Dimension, the Turtles, the Association. this light, airy sound was huge in the mid 60s.

so here's my take on what SHOULD have been for the lp:

HDH crafts this stellar song, Reflections which was the first psychedelic soul record. they dabble with a few more tunes like I'm Gonna Make It, Forever Came Today, Bah Bah Bah, I Can't Make It Alone, Am I Asking Too Much

then they built off of a previous hit [[Love is Here) and continue the sunshine pop style with In And Out Of Love. they also record Up Up and Away, Going All the Way, A Little Breeze, Stay in my lonely arms

the resulting album is Motown's "ode to California" with a mix of San Fran and LA. would this have been groundbreaking - no. but a more solid album than what we got

[Sotosound]

Back then, Motown was really a singles company, and albums were built around a few hit singles, often piggybacking their sales on those hit singles. Hence there was no chance back then of a Supremes Sgt Pepper.

It would be another few years before Marvin and Stevie fully broke that mould. In between, however, Norman Whitfield gave Motown proper psychedelic soul and released albums on The Temptations with a more consistent musical feel. Perhaps a kind of halfway house, arising from having a single producer and writing team for each album.

To be honest, although Sgt Pepper was very daring both musically and artistically, Frank Sinatra had already pioneered the concept album 12 years earlier with "In The Wee Small Hours", using a single producer and arranger for the whole album.

Pepper is a great album, by the way, as is a lot of Reflections. Had Reflections become The Supremes' 'Pepper', however, then what would have happened next given that HDH already had one foot out of the door?

[danman869]

I'm always a little surprised [not shocked, not highly judgmental] when Motown fans say they've never listened to any Beatles albums. Not saying it's required listening, but... if we think Motown is amazing and changed the world, why wouldn't we expose ourselves to those who loved Motown and who also influenced to some degrees what those at Motown were also doing? Never would I tell someone that they should be buying Deluxe Editions of the Beatles' albums, but... the music is out there--and free on places like YouTube.

In situations like this, I think about how when I first became a Supremes fan back in 1987 [[after reading "Dreamgirl"), I was only interested in their music from 1960-1969. "Who cares," I thought then, about stuff they did after Flo and Diana had left the group? Well, it took a year or two, but... eventually I started listening to '70s Supremes and it was like a whole next chapter was made available to me. Same thing with listening to the catalogs of other Motown stars...and the less famous Motown artists, too. Sometimes you can be surprised by music you thought you'd never like.

Check out this playlist on YT. The first thirteen tracks are the original Sgt. Pepper's album and the rest on the playlist are "gravy" on the deluxe edition.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis..._Yg_5vRlapHgKq


Lastly, I would never be able to consider any Supremes album as being able to be as influential as Sgt. Pepper was to the world of music fans. NOT saying our girls or their producers weren't entirely capable. I think it just came down to the fact that, in the '60s, Motown's focus was on the singles market. As you can tell by what folks have said in this discussion, side two of the Reflections album was pretty shaky in terms of what was included with some songs just not being the best choices. Part of that came from the fact that Motown producers in the '60s [at least] didn't approach albums as...important. Albums were just another way to get your singles out to the public while including a bunch of necessary filler. Granted, some of that "filler" was actually really good...but some, sadly, wasn't as good. So... it wasn't very likely that we Motown fans were going to get a '60s Motown album that was conceptual and all recorded within a short period of time because that wasn't really how Motown worked. I generally agree with the idea that Reflections side one is strong, but then things kind of go generally sideways on side two. [As much as folks here hate "What The World Needs Now Is Love," I don't see how anyone could take a waltz-tempo song and "reinvent" it--short of kind of ruining it. 4-4 songs you can speed up...slow down... be inventive. A waltz? Not so much. As for me, I always loved that song because Mary and especially Flo were so up front in the mix and you could really hear Flo at the fade...but that's just what makes me happy.] Generally, I think Grant has some of the better ideas about what songs might have improved side two--using more of those psychedelic soul-lite and California-esque breezy songs the group recorded between mid-1967 and early 1968--but...for whatever reason, Motown just didn't dip into those songs. They missed an opportunity, I suppose. Wasn't the first time, nor would it be the last.

[sup_fan]

i also don't think What The World Needs Now is as terrible as everyone else makes it out to be. i would listen to it on repeat as opposed to Where Is It I Belong from Sup 75 lol. and Beyond Myself has such screechy vocals by Jean - i'd label that as a worse record.

maybe the worst thing is the rather uninspired vocals. Diana could have been a bit more engaging. and M and F just sort of mechanically handle theirs too. WTWNN was apparently recorded during the A Go Go period and frankly a lot of the backing vocals from that time seem rather blah. both F and M just sound like they're both just going through the motions on many of the songs. were they tired from touring and all? did the producers actually instruct them to keep it straight and not do anything interesting? like on Sloopy - how on earth did no one think it would benefit the record by having the girls ad lib and all at the end? let Flo add some spice to things. and WTWNN could have maybe benefited from some solid, engaging 3-part harmony. they do sing in harmony but for the ending, maybe have Flo jump to the higher notes to add energy

[sup_fan]

I'm always a little surprised [not shocked, not highly judgmental] when Motown fans say they've never listened to any Beatles albums. Not saying it's required listening, but... if we think Motown is amazing and changed the world, why wouldn't we expose ourselves to those who loved Motown and who also influenced to some degrees what those at Motown were also doing? Never would I tell someone that they should be buying Deluxe Editions of the Beatles' albums, but... the music is out there--and free on places like YouTube.

In situations like this, I think about how when I first became a Supremes fan back in 1987 [[after reading "Dreamgirl"), I was only interested in their music from 1960-1969. "Who cares," I thought then, about stuff they did after Flo and Diana had left the group? Well, it took a year or two, but... eventually I started listening to '70s Supremes and it was like a whole next chapter was made available to me. Same thing with listening to the catalogs of other Motown stars...and the less famous Motown artists, too. Sometimes you can be surprised by music you thought you'd never like.

Check out this playlist on YT. The first thirteen tracks are the original Sgt. Pepper's album and the rest on the playlist are "gravy" on the deluxe edition.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis..._Yg_5vRlapHgKq


Lastly, I would never be able to consider any Supremes album as being able to be as influential as Sgt. Pepper was to the world of music fans. NOT saying our girls or their producers weren't entirely capable. I think it just came down to the fact that, in the '60s, Motown's focus was on the singles market. As you can tell by what folks have said in this discussion, side two of the Reflections album was pretty shaky in terms of what was included with some songs just not being the best choices. Part of that came from the fact that Motown producers in the '60s [at least] didn't approach albums as...important. Albums were just another way to get your singles out to the public while including a bunch of necessary filler. Granted, some of that "filler" was actually really good...but some, sadly, wasn't as good. So... it wasn't very likely that we Motown fans were going to get a '60s Motown album that was conceptual and all recorded within a short period of time because that wasn't really how Motown worked. I generally agree with the idea that Reflections side one is strong, but then things kind of go generally sideways on side two. [As much as folks here hate "What The World Needs Now Is Love," I don't see how anyone could take a waltz-tempo song and "reinvent" it--short of kind of ruining it. 4-4 songs you can speed up...slow down... be inventive. A waltz? Not so much. As for me, I always loved that song because Mary and especially Flo were so up front in the mix and you could really hear Flo at the fade...but that's just what makes me happy.] Generally, I think Grant has some of the better ideas about what songs might have improved side two--using more of those psychedelic soul-lite and California-esque breezy songs the group recorded between mid-1967 and early 1968--but...for whatever reason, Motown just didn't dip into those songs. They missed an opportunity, I suppose. Wasn't the first time, nor would it be the last.

completely agree

Berry was a businessman - plain and simple. he was in this business to make money and lots of it. i realize motown was a singles-focused company. and for many of the acts, that was it. but he's already shown a strategy with the supremes by doing Sam Cook, C&W, Copa, etc. Then the concept with Symphony. and then again later with Funny Girl.
so clearly they understood some of the potential impact an album could have besides just singles. Pet Sounds was out in mid-66 and Pepper by mid-67. both albums were huge successes both critically AND financially! so being a businessman, how on earth did Berry not jump on this to do a more strategic Sups album in order to better establish his star? to achieve greater acclaim for Diana AND to make a lot of money?

[RanRan79]

I'm always a little surprised [not shocked, not highly judgmental] when Motown fans say they've never listened to any Beatles albums. Not saying it's required listening, but... if we think Motown is amazing and changed the world, why wouldn't we expose ourselves to those who loved Motown and who also influenced to some degrees what those at Motown were also doing? Never would I tell someone that they should be buying Deluxe Editions of the Beatles' albums, but... the music is out there--and free on places like YouTube.

I think you have to keep in mind that a lot of us like what we like and don't fool with music we don't like, no matter how legendary said music might be. I've heard "enough" Beatles songs to know that I don't like them as a group. I think they were fantastic songwriters. The songs themselves, covered by other artists, are among some of my favorites. However, I've never thought the Beatles were much to speak of as singers, but more importantly they don't move me. I really like the Beach Boys and some other pop male groups of the 60s. I listen to them. I have no desire to subject my ears to the Beatles singing anything. My musical tastes is very ecclectic and my heart has room for so many sounds from so many different singers in so many different genres. So for me, it's not a case of only loving Motown or being unable to be openminded about other musical acts. I've tested the Beatles. They failed.

Having said that, your post should stand as a great endorsement for the Beatles for anyone who hasn't given them a chance. It's important to keep spreading the word about our favorite "yesteryear" artists, lest there come a time when they are eventually forgotten.

[RanRan79]

[As much as folks here hate "What The World Needs Now Is Love," I don't see how anyone could take a waltz-tempo song and "reinvent" it--short of kind of ruining it. 4-4 songs you can speed up...slow down... be inventive. A waltz? Not so much.

Limit the creative mind? NEVER!!!

I think the geniuses at Motown, such as HDH and Norman, had the ability to take "World Needs" to a whole other level if they thought about it. Check this out from Sergio Mendes. Keep in mind that I'm just using this as an example of someone thinking outside the box, not suggesting this is the version the Supremes should have done. Lol [[This was released in 1969, for the record.) Sergio's version is a bit too busy vocally, but he tried and I think it kind of works for the type of music he was doing.



As for the Supremes, I think there was a way to psychedelic it up without ruining it. The arrangement nor the vocals bring anything new to it. That's the problem I sometimes have with the Supremes covering the current hits of the day. There's a tendency for the recording to sound like "just another cover", which is a horrible approach for a group that wasn't "just another group". Jackie DeShannon's version of the song is great. Vocally I don't feel she was any better a singer than Diana. [[Not that I believe in "better" singers. For me either you can sing or you can't.) Diana should have been able to record this song and give it some real personality, even a bit of dramatic flair. Instead she sounds like she could care less about what the world needs. IMO the backing vocals are a reason to love the hit record. Those ladies are really singing back there. Flo and Mary were backing vocal powerhouses themselves, there's no reason why they couldn't have churned out an impressive vocal. Like I said, the A Go-Go expanded version with the extended version of the song...well I said "almost listenable", but I'll change it to "is listenable"...is listenable, the girls keep the same tone throughout. They never step it up like the ladies on the hit version. Flo and Mary were so much better than this performance.

[sup_fan]

Ran - very valid point on What. Diana is one of the masters of interpreting lyrics. she gives an ok performance here but she's capable of much more.

i don't mind the fact that the tune is very faithful to the original. but the vocals needed more life

[kenneth]

completely agree

Berry was a businessman - plain and simple. he was in this business to make money and lots of it. i realize motown was a singles-focused company. and for many of the acts, that was it. but he's already shown a strategy with the supremes by doing Sam Cook, C&W, Copa, etc. Then the concept with Symphony. and then again later with Funny Girl.
so clearly they understood some of the potential impact an album could have besides just singles. Pet Sounds was out in mid-66 and Pepper by mid-67. both albums were huge successes both critically AND financially! so being a businessman, how on earth did Berry not jump on this to do a more strategic Sups album in order to better establish his star? to achieve greater acclaim for Diana AND to make a lot of money?

Wasn't it true that "Pet Sounds" was a commercial disappointment on first release? I read an entire book about the album, so I should remember, but I believe it was an album that was almost immediately repackaged and reissued as a "2-fer" with another Beach Boys album, maybe a Greatest Hits? In any case, it is indeed a fantastic album and one which spurred creativity in both the Beach Boys and Beatles subsequent releases. This same kind of "rivalry" caused Brian Wilson to decide against releasing his "Smile" masterpiece, after he heard what the Beatles did on "Sgt. Pepper."

I also find it hard to understand how Motown fans can be so against the Beatles as recording artists. Their music influenced everyone. Nearly every group, rock, pop or otherwise had their own "Sgt. Pepper." To me, the Supremes' "Sgt. Pepper" was "Let the Sunshine In." What do you know, even Liberace had a "Sgt. Pepper" inspired album with some psychedelia woven throughout the instrumental backgrounds!

[khansperac]

I just listened to the Supremes version of “What the world needs now”, IMO it’s pretty bad. I don’t like Diana’s vocal, she put absolutely no effort into it. The background vocals aren’t good either. I also don’t like the arrangement. Curious what you all think of the version Diana recorded when she was 50.

[daviddh]

I think a few of the songs sound like run through or when they MARK a song to get it down. But go back and record it for release .a few songs sound unfinished to me

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Wasn't it true that "Pet Sounds" was a commercial disappointment on first release? I read an entire book about the album, so I should remember, but I believe it was an album that was almost immediately repackaged and reissued as a "2-fer" with another Beach Boys album, maybe a Greatest Hits? In any case, it is indeed a fantastic album and one which spurred creativity in both the Beach Boys and Beatles subsequent releases. This same kind of "rivalry" caused Brian Wilson to decide against releasing his "Smile" masterpiece, after he heard what the Beatles did on "Sgt. Pepper."

I also find it hard to understand how Motown fans can be so against the Beatles as recording artists. Their music influenced everyone. Nearly every group, rock, pop or otherwise had their own "Sgt. Pepper." To me, the Supremes' "Sgt. Pepper" was "Let the Sunshine In." What do you know, even Liberace had a "Sgt. Pepper" inspired album with some psychedelia woven throughout the instrumental backgrounds!

Yeah, I've got a couple of books on the Beach Boys and "Pet Sounds" was not well-received at all by Capitol Records. Capitol was used to the "fun and sun" Beach Boys who did these cute little pop records about surfing, fun and cars. Capitol grudgingly put the album out when they saw that this was all they were going to get from Brian. What's kind of funny about the reasons why Capitol didn't like "Pet Sounds" is that it's the exact same thing that befell the Beatles and even the Monkees. Once both groups decided it was time to grow up and record progressive music, they lost their strongest audience: the teenyboppers. Capitol saw that "Pet Sounds" was NOT the kind of music that would appeal to the Beach Boys' core audience of young girls [[and young guys too probably for that matter.)

Capitol released the album and it didn't go over well, although it reached #10 on the album charts. You'd think that was a great showing, but I think sales were slow and trailed off. Making this worse, Capitol did little to promote the album and when they did, they promoted it in the same cutesy-ootsy, fun-lovin' way they sold all the previous Beach Boys albums. Then, probably in a state of panic, Capitol quickly assembled a "Greatest Hits" album and stuck that out on the market- and promoted it over "Pet Sounds" thinking these songs from the good old days would sell at a much brisker pace and in larger numbers than this weird Brian Wilson opus.

In comparison, I believe "Pet Sounds" was VERY well received in the UK as being a very progressive work. Why do I not have any trouble believing that? From what I've read over the years about all kinds of music, it seems the US has always been kinda narrow in what they like and want in music. Or when they broaden their tastes, it takes some time and doing.

As far as the Beatles, well, I'll be honest in saying that for the longest time, I wasn't a fan of their music- so yeah, I'm showing how narrow my tastes were too! At some point, I decided I needed to figure out just what it was about this group that made them such a cultural revolution. And that's just what it was: the Beatles were a complete cultural revolution in music. The timing of their music hitting in the US after the assassination of JFK was, in the view of a Rolling Stones book on the history of Rock music, like a sort of welcome diversion from the mass mourning that had overtaken the country. They were different, different from anything else that was going on in music. I read that and I got it. It's like when you're in the dumps and you get a visit from your wild and wacky cousins from out of town whose presence just elevates your mood.

I know there is a lot more to it, but that observation was like a switch that flipped everything for me about my feelings for the Beatles.

[Sotosound]

And even teenyboppers grow up.

Hence most teen idols end up on the shelf after two or three years.

Those that survive are the ones who grow up with their fans, and Capitol ought to have worked that out.

[zani57]

I believe it is in Mary's spoken introduction to "Reflections" on my five-LP "The Motown Story" from 1970 in which she says that Holland-Dozier-Holland were experimenting because it was the time of when The Beatles were doing some different things musically/electronically.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

And even teenyboppers grow up.

Hence most teen idols end up on the shelf after two or three years.

Those that survive are the ones who grow up with their fans, and Capitol ought to have worked that out.

You'd think so, but it really does show the money-grubbing, shortsighted view of many record company execs.

[sup_fan]

You'd think so, but it really does show the money-grubbing, shortsighted view of many record company execs.

well we also have to remember that fame is fleeting. if we look at the mid 60s, r&r had only been around for 8 - 10 years. and look at the massive changes that had occurred in that short time. the "girl group" sensation came and went, the sweet teen boy idols like Ricki Nelson and others, stars that had hits in the late 50s only to dry up by the early 60s. it could have very easily been that motown would have fizzled out by 67 or so, especially when HDH left. so the powers that be weren't looking to create something that might be artistically magical and for the ages yet only sell 7 copies this year. they wanted money now because tomorrow was most certainly not promised

[daviddh]

Maybe with Diana two Grammy nods and the Supremes being recognized by the Grammys, finally
Maybe universal will release another Expanded editions
Maybe

[thanxal]

Maybe with Diana two Grammy nods and the Supremes being recognized by the Grammys, finally
Maybe universal will release another Expanded editions
Maybe

Please don't hold your breath!

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

well we also have to remember that fame is fleeting. if we look at the mid 60s, r&r had only been around for 8 - 10 years. and look at the massive changes that had occurred in that short time. the "girl group" sensation came and went, the sweet teen boy idols like Ricki Nelson and others, stars that had hits in the late 50s only to dry up by the early 60s. it could have very easily been that motown would have fizzled out by 67 or so, especially when HDH left. so the powers that be weren't looking to create something that might be artistically magical and for the ages yet only sell 7 copies this year. they wanted money now because tomorrow was most certainly not promised

Those are really good points. I hadn't thought about it in those terms. That's what is really enjoyable about this forum- you benefit from multiple points of view and everybody else's wisdom.

[sup_fan]

Those are really good points. I hadn't thought about it in those terms. That's what is really enjoyable about this forum- you benefit from multiple points of view and everybody else's wisdom.

oh i agree! i've been on here for decades, literally. lolol and i'm still learning things

one of the more recent ones was a discussion on Nathan Jones. always liked the song but i'll admit it wasn't my very very top. the fan described how he loved it too but that the ending/post bridge just didn't go anywhere. maybe Frank was just a little too reserved with the usage of the synth. maybe Jean should have done more ad libs.

another fan noted that the unison lead singing made the lyrics hard to decipher.

now when i listen to it, i recognize these things and so it's somewhat lackluster chart performance makes sense. it still did well but someone else lol mentioned that when talking with the girls they thought NJ would be the mega smash. that it was so innovative, so cool, so hot.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

oh i agree! i've been on here for decades, literally. lolol and i'm still learning things

one of the more recent ones was a discussion on Nathan Jones. always liked the song but i'll admit it wasn't my very very top. the fan described how he loved it too but that the ending/post bridge just didn't go anywhere. maybe Frank was just a little too reserved with the usage of the synth. maybe Jean should have done more ad libs.

another fan noted that the unison lead singing made the lyrics hard to decipher.

now when i listen to it, i recognize these things and so it's somewhat lackluster chart performance makes sense. it still did well but someone else lol mentioned that when talking with the girls they thought NJ would be the mega smash. that it was so innovative, so cool, so hot.

That song seems to be a bit of a thorn in the fans' side! I really like the song, but- here we go again- reading what some hear are the song's shortcomings nailed down why I always felt something was lacking; I just could never figure out exactly what it was. "Nathan Jones" for me is like "In And Out Of Love" and "Forever Came Today" in the way that I like those songs and yet I could never just LOOOOOOOVE those songs like the ones that came before it.

[sup_fan]

That song seems to be a bit of a thorn in the fans' side! I really like the song, but- here we go again- reading what some hear are the song's shortcomings nailed down why I always felt something was lacking; I just could never figure out exactly what it was. "Nathan Jones" for me is like "In And Out Of Love" and "Forever Came Today" in the way that I like those songs and yet I could never just LOOOOOOOVE those songs like the ones that came before it.

haha i know! just finding others like us [[freakazoids about the Supremes lol) allows us to dig into this minutia

personally i've never liked In and Out nor Love Is Here. i don't like the bouncy nature to the tune. same with Everybody and you Gotta Have Love, although on the EE version of the later with Jean's great ad libs, i've grown to like it more.

i think there are some interesting elements to Forever. it was certainly experimental. some fans on here have shared that it might not have been completed by HDH. according to the dates we have, backing vocals were done on both 1/6/68 and 1/23. it was supposedly completed on 1/23.

and in Dec you have Deke doing I'm Gonna Make It and then in Feb he's doing Am I Asking Too Much. both were very, very similar to the tone/sounds of Reflections, I Can't Make It Along and Forever. So did Deke finish Forever but credit still went to HDH? were these all unfinished songs but maybe I Can't Make and Forever were further along and so HDH kept the production rights on those?

in the end, i think Forever is a bit too avant guarde and cerebral for a single. and that was just not the style of the sups, who's single were much more straight forward.

[marybrewster]

Would love the booklet and timeline, as it appears an EE will not arrive any time soon, or ever.

[sup_fan]

Would love the booklet and timeline, as it appears an EE will not arrive any time soon, or ever.

with Andy's departure from Universal, i believe you're correct in that the Reflections EE is officially cancelled.

i too asked about the booklet! would love the details and info. and if Andy is no longer with Universal, is he still bound by the "speak nothing of this until the release" mentality? he, George and the others were always so elusive of "some really amazing things will be shared with the upcoming release..." Now, who the F cares? go ahead and share it all. the booklet and the imagery of the final print-ready pages is probably, technically, Universals copyright. they were going to publish it. but the details, dates and facts is public record

[BayouMotownMan]

I grew to love this album, it is to me a mood lp of sorts and clearly designed to focus on Diana Ross at the expense of the Supremes. Every song on Side A works for me. Side B has its hits and misses. There were possible singles here with I'm Gonna Make It and Misery Makes Its Home, which should have been on Side A. Ode To Billie Joe doesn't work for me but it is a Diana solo.

The failure of FCT and the public's negative reaction to the new billing shows here. All previous Supremes studio lps starting with WDOLG firmly sailed into the best selling Top 10 albums on almost all the charts. Reflections struggled to get into the lower Top 20. This sent Gordy into a tailspin as his star act was now losing its power. It took Love Child and the Tempts reunion at the end of the year to return the groups star power and get the public to accept that Diana was the emerging superstar of this group.

[sup_fan]

I grew to love this album, it is to me a mood lp of sorts and clearly designed to focus on Diana Ross at the expense of the Supremes. Every song on Side A works for me. Side B has its hits and misses. There were possible singles here with I'm Gonna Make It and Misery Makes Its Home, which should have been on Side A. Ode To Billie Joe doesn't work for me but it is a Diana solo.

The failure of FCT and the public's negative reaction to the new billing shows here. All previous Supremes studio lps starting with WDOLG firmly sailed into the best selling Top 10 albums on almost all the charts. Reflections struggled to get into the lower Top 20. This sent Gordy into a tailspin as his star act was now losing its power. It took Love Child and the Tempts reunion at the end of the year to return the groups star power and get the public to accept that Diana was the emerging superstar of this group.

i wonder if they'd left the name as "The Supremes" for the Reflections lead single and the parent lp. then with Greatest Hits, make the change. i realize the timing for GH album is before the release of the Reflections lp. but the GH set was too powerful of a release. you could have labeled the group "This is all about Diana Ross so who cares about the other two" and it still would have gone #1 and sold millions and millions.

[sup_fan]

as for the Reflections album, i think it is too obvious that this is a cobbled together package.

Pet Sounds came out in May 66, Sgt Pepper in May 67. Those two albums changed the whole record business. they showed that albums could be used to make artistic statements AND appeal to the record buying public. in addition, the Youth Generation was really taking hold by 67 and 68 as a major economic power. Kids had money to spend and could be selective in what they were willing to purchase. more and more bands and groups were following the Beatles and Beach Boys' leads by making albums with more compelling material.

kids just weren't willing to accept the randomness of an album chocked full with filler

Plus the rock scene was becoming more exciting with the emergence of San Fran and LA as new centers of the scene. R&B was becoming a bigger force too. there were so many more choices

[Ollie9]

It’s odd with the care that went into recording the R&H album, that the company would just cobble together an lp in support of one of the groups finest and most contemporary songs.
I wonder how Diana herself felt about such an album, or was she just too busy to care leaving such decisions to others.

[sup_fan]

It’s odd with the care that went into recording the R&H album, that the company would just cobble together an lp in support of one of the groups finest and most contemporary songs.
I wonder how Diana, Mary and Flo felt about such an album, or were they just too busy to care leaving such decisions to others.

but let's face it, Sings HDH was pretty cobbled together too. although it seems more fans tend to like it that Reflections. But look at the glaring difference in sound, vocals, etc between Love is Here and Always In My Heart. and I Guess I'll Always Love You isn't the strongest performance. the song gets REALLY high and the girls strain on it a bit. heatwave is a pretty bland cover too, although we'd experienced that some on A Go Go also.

IMO WDOLG and More Hits are the two most solid supremes albums during the Diana era. Symphony is enjoyable and i truly appreciate what they were attempting to do. so i give them credit for that. but HDH was pretty new to dealing with symphonic productions and the sound quality of these tunes just isn't as strong as what the same team did a year or two later with the Broadway to Hollywood tracks.

Love Child is probably the next strongest lp but i don't like the ordering of the tunes. having four serious, heavy tunes at the start and then pivoting to stuff like Sunny Boy. it would have worked better to intermix the tunes more.

[Ollie9]

but let's face it, Sings HDH was pretty cobbled together too. although it seems more fans tend to like it that Reflections. But look at the glaring difference in sound, vocals, etc between Love is Here and Always In My Heart. and I Guess I'll Always Love You isn't the strongest performance. the song gets REALLY high and the girls strain on it a bit. heatwave is a pretty bland cover too, although we'd experienced that some on A Go Go also.

IMO WDOLG and More Hits are the two most solid supremes albums during the Diana era. Symphony is enjoyable and i truly appreciate what they were attempting to do. so i give them credit for that. but HDH was pretty new to dealing with symphonic productions and the sound quality of these tunes just isn't as strong as what the same team did a year or two later with the Broadway to Hollywood tracks.

Love Child is probably the next strongest lp but i don't like the ordering of the tunes. having four serious, heavy tunes at the start and then pivoting to stuff like Sunny Boy. it would have worked better to intermix the tunes more.

By late 67 the music world was changing, being you were less likely to get away with surrounding a hit or two with filler as Reflections is testament to.

[sup_fan]

By late 67 the music world was changing, being you were less likely to get away with surrounding a hit or two with filler as Reflections is testament to.

completely agree. makes you wonder what HDH might have done as a REAL follow up to Reflections or as the expansion of that sound. much of the Reflections LP is produced by others. plus some of the HDH tracks were apparently unfinished and so other wrapped them up. i think Forever is one of these - makes you wonder what it would have been like had HDH completed their vision for the material

[Ollie9]

completely agree. makes you wonder what HDH might have done as a REAL follow up to Reflections or as the expansion of that sound. much of the Reflections LP is produced by others. plus some of the HDH tracks were apparently unfinished and so other wrapped them up. i think Forever is one of these - makes you wonder what it would have been like had HDH completed their vision for the material

A huge improvement i would guess. One thing I do love regarding the Reflections album is the progression in Diana’s voice, being generally far more rounded than those early hits.

[sup_fan]

A huge improvement i would guess. One thing I do love regarding the Reflections album is the progression in Diana’s voice, being generally far more rounded than those early hits.

yes - it's a bit deeper, darker of a tone. a more mature sound definitely

[sup_fan]

A huge improvement i would guess. One thing I do love regarding the Reflections album is the progression in Diana’s voice, being generally far more rounded than those early hits.

i've never been a huge fan of In And Out Of Love but a few years back i was on Wikipedia reading about the girls' hits and one of the descriptions used for this tune was "Sunshine Pop." i was unfamiliar with that description and learned that it was in reference to a category/genre of music coming out of LA in the mid 60s. groups included Beach Boys [[their earlier stuff), mama and the papas, 5th Dimension, The Association.

that made me wonder if HDH was taking these new influences coming from California and looking at how they could take those sounds and "motown-ize" them. almost as if they were doing an album as a tribute to the San Fran and LA sounds

San Fran - Reflections, bah bah, I'm gonna make it, Forever, I can't make it alone, am i asking too much as the 6 tunes for the psychedelic soul tunes

LA - Up up and away, going all the way to true love, in and out of love, a little breeze, stay in my lonely arms and can't shake it loose as the 6 Sunshine pop tunes. Can't Shake was actually recorded during the "reflections" period but later used on the Love Child album.

of course i might be reading WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY too much into this but makes for a fun theory! lol

[RanRan79]

The album could have been so much better. "Reflections" was so special, it would have made sense to build the entire album around it. "Forever", "I'm Gonna Make It", "I Can't Make It Alone", "Bah, Bah, Bah". Had the album been held back a few more days, "Beginning of the End of Love" would have made a perfect addition. "Am I Asking Too Much" would have worked as well. I could also hear them doing "Beware Of A Stranger", although I like that a bit more for the Love Child album. Maybe "I See A Rainbow".

[sup_fan]

The album could have been so much better. "Reflections" was so special, it would have made sense to build the entire album around it. "Forever", "I'm Gonna Make It", "I Can't Make It Alone", "Bah, Bah, Bah". Had the album been held back a few more days, "Beginning of the End of Love" would have made a perfect addition. "Am I Asking Too Much" would have worked as well. I could also hear them doing "Beware Of A Stranger", although I like that a bit more for the Love Child album. Maybe "I See A Rainbow".

some of the other tunes from spring 68 that might have worked with this revised Reflections lp could be If You Should Walk Away. You Gave Me Love was also recorded later but from an audio perspective, it fits well with the other tunes and is a nice change of pace - more uplifting than the darker songs.

part of the fascination with the title track was the use of the synthesizer and oscillator. if they were going to approach the album as a complete concept, the mind wonders with what they might have done to connect the tracks audibly. perhaps using some of these sounds and things inbetween the songs or at the beginning/end of the lp. kind of like how on Funny Girl that little motif continues again and again

[Ollie9]

The album could have been so much better. "Reflections" was so special, it would have made sense to build the entire album around it. "Forever", "I'm Gonna Make It", "I Can't Make It Alone", "Bah, Bah, Bah". Had the album been held back a few more days, "Beginning of the End of Love" would have made a perfect addition.

I’m a huge fan of “Beginning Of The End Of Love”, thinking it a far more commercial sounding song than either “Forever Came Today” or “Composer”.
It’s a total head scratcher why it was never included on any of the albums.

[marybrewster]

i wonder if they'd left the name as "The Supremes" for the Reflections lead single and the parent lp. then with Greatest Hits, make the change. i realize the timing for GH album is before the release of the Reflections lp. but the GH set was too powerful of a release. you could have labeled the group "This is all about Diana Ross so who cares about the other two" and it still would have gone #1 and sold millions and millions.

It always struck me as odd [[?) - not sure if that's the right word - for the Greatest Hits to be released under DRATS, when every single and track was recorded as The Supremes. I suppose it's just a technicality, but it makes no sense. Furthering the fact that Flo was no longer in the group, but the cover and "painting" includes her.

If you notice, this set [[and Reflections, and later LTSSI) have SUPREMES in larger font, and DIANA ROSS in smaller font. Perhaps still a bit testing the waters. All subsequent releases have DIANA ROSS as big as THE SUPREMES. Except for JOIN which looks to me like DIANA ROSS JOIN THE TEMPTATIONS AND THE SUPREMES, lol.

[sup_fan]

It always struck me as odd [[?) - not sure if that's the right word - for the Greatest Hits to be released under DRATS, when every single and track was recorded as The Supremes. I suppose it's just a technicality, but it makes no sense. Furthering the fact that Flo was no longer in the group, but the cover and "painting" includes her.

If you notice, this set [[and Reflections, and later LTSSI) have SUPREMES in larger font, and DIANA ROSS in smaller font. Perhaps still a bit testing the waters. All subsequent releases have DIANA ROSS as big as THE SUPREMES. Except for JOIN which looks to me like DIANA ROSS JOIN THE TEMPTATIONS AND THE SUPREMES, lol.

totally agree that they were trying to sort of ease things in. on GH it was definitely smaller. and then the bubble lettering on Reflections just helped to make "Supremes" more legible than DR.