A declined 1982 supremes' re-union ??

[Ollie9]

She probably would have released an opera single next.

Either that or a tribute to Led Zeppelin lol. Without having heard the other rock tracks she may have recorded, it’s hard to fully assess how her career as a heavy metal artist might have progressed.

[marybrewster]

She probably would have released an opera single next.

Maybe she and Mary could have duetted on "Ave Maria"?

[RanRan79]

Either that or a tribute to Led Zeppelin lol. Without having heard the other rock tracks she may have recorded, it’s hard to fully assess how her career as a heavy metal artist might have progressed.

Diana Ross Sings Led. You've never heard "Communication Breakdown" quite like this.

[RanRan79]

Maybe she and Mary could have duetted on "Ave Maria"?

As long as Mary got to do her Flo Ballard impression, it would have been a winner!

[sup_fan]

Maybe she and Mary could have duetted on "Ave Maria"?

hey don't laugh. both Donna Summer and Aretha Franklin put out ghastly opera songs

[sup_fan]

When it comes to the Supremes, Mary should never accept a secondary role. She is Queen Supreme. For some, Diana's superstar status somehow makes her more worthy of just about anything over Mary. Mary never saw it that way, and I don't either. Diana is as much to blame for a non reunion as Mary is. She would have benefitted from a reunion, but even without it she was still living better than most people and appeared to be as happy as she ever was.

I'll tell you one thing about the GD tracks: they were better than half of the stuff Diana recorded at RCA. Except "Green River", we agree on that. Good grief that song is awful.

yes and no

the fact remains that this is a business. no one [[other than die hard fans) gives two shits about what is "fair" or what is "right." whether it was 1983 or 2000, mary wilson had really 0 ground to stand on when it came to negotiating business around a reunion tour. she had no label, no solo successes. so no - no promoter was going to care about her wishes or whether she was "queen". that's why no real reunion of merit has ever really been a focus unless it included Diana. people want to hear Diana's voice sing the 60s hits. that's what will draw in the majority of the ticket purchases

but that's just for the promoters POV. they don't care much about the details, so long as the revenue is coming in. and that the show is profitable

when it comes down to the plans for the stage act - what costumes, the choreography, song order, etc, that's where mary should have had significant input. here i do totally agree that she and Diana should have been able to approach this from a 50/50 standpoint.

[Roberta75]

As long as Mary got to do her Flo Ballard impression, it would have been a winner!

LOL. As much as i used to cringe when Mary would do her Proincess Margaret "Is that a wig you are wearing Mary?" impression with the worst English accent since Tony Curtis. Id sure love to hear her do it again.

[Roberta75]

hey don't laugh. both Donna Summer and Aretha Franklin put out ghastly opera songs

But Aretha NAILED Nessun Dorma at the Grammy Awards and only had 20 mintes to rehearse it.

[RanRan79]

yes and no

the fact remains that this is a business. no one [[other than die hard fans) gives two shits about what is "fair" or what is "right." whether it was 1983 or 2000, mary wilson had really 0 ground to stand on when it came to negotiating business around a reunion tour. she had no label, no solo successes. so no - no promoter was going to care about her wishes or whether she was "queen". that's why no real reunion of merit has ever really been a focus unless it included Diana. people want to hear Diana's voice sing the 60s hits. that's what will draw in the majority of the ticket purchases

but that's just for the promoters POV. they don't care much about the details, so long as the revenue is coming in. and that the show is profitable

when it comes down to the plans for the stage act - what costumes, the choreography, song order, etc, that's where mary should have had significant input. here i do totally agree that she and Diana should have been able to approach this from a 50/50 standpoint.

It wasn't Mary's job to care what the promoters thought. Everybody in the music biz is out for themselves and focus on their best interests. So yeah, Mary drew a hard line for what she thought was fair. I've always maintained that if [[and I don't know if this was Mary's thought or not) Mary expected to make what Diana was making, it was delusional. Diana was the bigger star and was also an investor in the tour. Mary was being asked to participate, not put up any money. But it's insulting- whether from the promoters, Diana, or both- to give Mary a dollar amount for a Supremes show and say "just show up". At that point she's an after thought, playing a secondary role. Mary had the right to stand up for herself, because let's face it, Diana will stand up for herself, and the promoters will stand up for themselves and protect their interests. I would never begrudge Mary the right to protect her own.

So Mary signs the contract and accepts the fee. Mary gets to rehearsal and find out that she and Cindy are standing waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy in the back, stage left, while Diana is front and center. Mary and Cindy are also wearing mockups of Hudson Department store specials that the early Supremes would wear, while Diana is in some major designer frock.

The money might be good, but would Mary want to take a shower after picking the money up from the nightstand? We all have to have standards or someone will always be looking for a way to get over on us.

[RanRan79]

But Aretha NAILED Nessun Dorma at the Grammy Awards and only had 20 mintes to rehearse it.

That she did. The 20 minutes is always what gets me. She was always finding a way to remind folks of why she was the queen in the first place.

[sup_fan]

i think we have different definitions of Nailed It. i certainly appreciate her stepping in at a moment's notice but she had performed it a few nights earlier at another event so it wasn't that she walked in and learned the aria in 20 mins.

the issue is the incredible number of liberties she took with the song - interpretation, phrasing, etc. I'm fine with an artist adding some of their personality and perspective to a tune but i find Aretha's to be too far. Aretha is capable of singing more than just gospel. i think it would have been interesting to hear her learn classical phrasing and approach. to branch out. and i might be in the minority on this opinion which is fine

[sup_fan]

It wasn't Mary's job to care what the promoters thought. Everybody in the music biz is out for themselves and focus on their best interests. So yeah, Mary drew a hard line for what she thought was fair. I've always maintained that if [[and I don't know if this was Mary's thought or not) Mary expected to make what Diana was making, it was delusional. Diana was the bigger star and was also an investor in the tour. Mary was being asked to participate, not put up any money. But it's insulting- whether from the promoters, Diana, or both- to give Mary a dollar amount for a Supremes show and say "just show up". At that point she's an after thought, playing a secondary role. Mary had the right to stand up for herself, because let's face it, Diana will stand up for herself, and the promoters will stand up for themselves and protect their interests. I would never begrudge Mary the right to protect her own.

So Mary signs the contract and accepts the fee. Mary gets to rehearsal and find out that she and Cindy are standing waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy in the back, stage left, while Diana is front and center. Mary and Cindy are also wearing mockups of Hudson Department store specials that the early Supremes would wear, while Diana is in some major designer frock.

The money might be good, but would Mary want to take a shower after picking the money up from the nightstand? We all have to have standards or someone will always be looking for a way to get over on us.

according to Randy's book on RTL [[lol yes yes, we're going there again), Diana wanted Mary and the promoters to hash out their negotiations about the money first. that would have then resulted in the contracts being finalized and signed. THEN she and mary would hash out the stage act itself. so assuming this is true, we're pretty much in agreement i think. mary would negotiate whatever fee she could get and whatever the promoters were willing to pay.

supposedly there were 2 big breakdowns - 1 mary was pissed that diana hadn't reached out earlier to chat about the idea and 2 mary wanted a full 1/3 financial share of the tour

the first one i can sort of agree with. and i 100% agree that once contracts were in place, mary should have been involved in everything. no Hudson knock off dresses lol. no standing 50 yards behind diana lol

but the second one is lunacy. mary wilson is not professionally worth that much money.

[khansperac]

That she did. The 20 minutes is always what gets me. She was always finding a way to remind folks of why she was the queen in the first place.

Aretha certainly rose to the occasion and it was great. But the way the story is told, it’s misleading. She had just performed the song a mere 2 days prior in a tribute to Pavarotti. So she was well rehearsed. With that said, she was a total professional.

[reese]

i think we have different definitions of Nailed It. i certainly appreciate her stepping in at a moment's notice but she had performed it a few nights earlier at another event so it wasn't that she walked in and learned the aria in 20 mins.

the issue is the incredible number of liberties she took with the song - interpretation, phrasing, etc. I'm fine with an artist adding some of their personality and perspective to a tune but i find Aretha's to be too far. Aretha is capable of singing more than just gospel. i think it would have been interesting to hear her learn classical phrasing and approach. to branch out. and i might be in the minority on this opinion which is fine

At one point, I believe Aretha was taking classical phrasing lessons. In one interview, she mentioned her teacher telling her to "roll the Rs". She also mentioned some criticism from opera purists but basically said that she had to do it her way.

Re the Grammy performance, I thought it was great. Yes, she had done the tune a few nights prior. But on the Grammys, she was singing it with more instrumentation, with a choir, and in Pavarotti's lower key as well. I actually think the Grammy performance is better than the MusicCares version [[in her key) that they released a few months later.

[marybrewster]

re: RTL.....

The fact remains that when it comes to reunions, regardless of what everyone else may think, one member is no greater than any other. Yes, certain members may have more pull or connections or finances, but do you think when the Eagles reunited that Glenn Frey said to Don Fedler and Don Henley, "hey, sign the contacts first and then we'll work out the details", or when Fleetwood Mac reunited for "The Dance" that Mick Fleetwood said "we'll shoot first and ask questions later"? NO.

Mary Wilson had every damn right to be a part of the process, the planning, the period. And regardless if we all think it was about money, it was about acknowledgment and principle.

[sup_fan]

re: RTL.....

The fact remains that when it comes to reunions, regardless of what everyone else may think, one member is no greater than any other. Yes, certain members may have more pull or connections or finances, but do you think when the Eagles reunited that Glenn Frey said to Don Fedler and Don Henley, "hey, sign the contacts first and then we'll work out the details", or when Fleetwood Mac reunited for "The Dance" that Mick Fleetwood said "we'll shoot first and ask questions later"? NO.

Mary Wilson had every damn right to be a part of the process, the planning, the period. And regardless if we all think it was about money, it was about acknowledgment and principle.

but rtl didn't originate as a Supremes reunion. it wasn't conceived that way. the promoters were working on Diana's next tour and the discussion was to do an extended segment of her supremes songs rather than just a medley. somehow that initial concept become morfed into a full reunion. frankly if the gossip hadn't started the reunion talk, i doubt we would have ever received anything remotely close to a reunion. Diana had met Scherrie and Lynda a few times and mentioned "wouldn't it be fun to do something" or something like that. but i don't think after Motown 25 and dreamgirl, diana ever had any intention of working with mary again.

[telekin]

yes and no

the fact remains that this is a business. no one [[other than die hard fans) gives two shits about what is "fair" or what is "right." whether it was 1983 or 2000, mary wilson had really 0 ground to stand on when it came to negotiating business around a reunion tour. she had no label, no solo successes. so no - no promoter was going to care about her wishes or whether she was "queen".

Zero ground? Really? I'm sorry, that's a ridiculous and quite frankly disrespectful position.

She was the only other original member of the group they were trying to reunite. I mean why even talk about a reunion then?

They didn't take Mary Wilson seriously enough and the result was a flop tour and a PR disaster, in no small part because of that. If they couldn't have come to terms with Mary, then they should have just done a Diana Ross Greatest Hits tour and have been done with it.

[RanRan79]

but the second one is lunacy. mary wilson is not professionally worth that much money.

Agreed, I would hate to think Mary went into this with that mindset. To fans Mary was invaluable, but business wise no one was going to put her on the same monetary pedestal as Diana. Again, Diana was also putting money into the tour. Mary was not being asked to contribute financially.

[RanRan79]

re: RTL.....

The fact remains that when it comes to reunions, regardless of what everyone else may think, one member is no greater than any other. Yes, certain members may have more pull or connections or finances, but do you think when the Eagles reunited that Glenn Frey said to Don Fedler and Don Henley, "hey, sign the contacts first and then we'll work out the details", or when Fleetwood Mac reunited for "The Dance" that Mick Fleetwood said "we'll shoot first and ask questions later"? NO.

Mary Wilson had every damn right to be a part of the process, the planning, the period. And regardless if we all think it was about money, it was about acknowledgment and principle.

I agree with all of this. The truth is that Diana should have called Mary up before she said a word to anyone else about it. They had been in contact previously, so it's not like this was the first time the two had spoken since all the Dreamgirl drama. And if I'm being honest, Mary too could have called Diana as soon as she got wind that something was brewing instead of waiting and having an attitude about it. [[Yes, I do believe Diana's story that Mary had an attitude when they finally did speak. Lol)

But unfortunately, Diana did think this was going to be all about her. She was the bride and Mary, and even Cindy, were her bridesmaids. The public said "yeah, no".

[RanRan79]

but rtl didn't originate as a Supremes reunion. it wasn't conceived that way. the promoters were working on Diana's next tour and the discussion was to do an extended segment of her supremes songs rather than just a medley. somehow that initial concept become morfed into a full reunion. frankly if the gossip hadn't started the reunion talk, i doubt we would have ever received anything remotely close to a reunion. Diana had met Scherrie and Lynda a few times and mentioned "wouldn't it be fun to do something" or something like that. but i don't think after Motown 25 and dreamgirl, diana ever had any intention of working with mary again.

If Diana didn't want to do a reunion, she could have refused to go along with it, and quite frankly it would have been in her nature to do so. I think it's entirely possible that by the time of RTL, the fans were holding more grudges about the whole Mary vs Diana thing than Mary and Diana were. Feelings may have softened. I can imagine that when all the drama was fresh, Diana probably didn't want to work with Mary again. And honestly, after being shoved and having her hand pushed away by Diana, Mary would have been justified in not desiring to take the stage with Diana again also. But a lot had happened in the years since all of that. Mary lost her son in a horrific way and Diana lost her brother in a horrific manner. In the wake of those tragedies, as sometimes happens with tragedies, there may have been some softening of the hearts. So whether Diana conjured up the idea or it was brought to her, she had to have been unbothered by the chance to work with Mary again or she would have simply vetoed the idea and moved on.

I do believe that when Diana said she would never work with Mary again after RTL, she meant it.

[RanRan79]

They didn't take Mary Wilson seriously enough and the result was a flop tour and a PR disaster, in no small part because of that. If they couldn't have come to terms with Mary, then they should have just done a Diana Ross Greatest Hits tour and have been done with it.

Unfortunately, this is the bottom line. The tour had some successes, but in the end it was a flop and the PR for Diana was absolutely horrible. No arguing that Diana was the bigger star, but she clearly underestimated [[as did everyone else behind the tour) what the public wanted when they hear "SUPREMES". Even when Diana made that crap crack about Mary singing "her" songs, that it was "her" voice on the records, that told me everything I needed to know about how Diana viewed the Supremes. It was all about her and she really thought the public was going to be okay with that.

I'm not sure her ego had ever gotten that bad of a bruise, not in her adult life. Not in her professional adult life. Word on the street is that after the last show and the tour was cancelled, one of the Velvelettes walked into the ladies room and found Diana kicking a stall.

[Ollie9]

Even without Mary, i think the the RTL tour could have succeeded with more realistically priced tickets. It never reached the UK, but it certainly looked and sounded a fantastic show. They should have scrapped the dancers and additional backing singers to save on costs. Scherrie and Lynda’s vocals really didn’t need augmenting.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Oh boy, RTL again. IMHO, those days were filled with reunions of groups and bands. A reunion of Diana Ross & The Supremes-Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong- would have worked. However, it needed to be a true reunion and every member should have been treated with dignity. I think the promoters and Diana thought Mary was just sitting by the phone waiting for the rumors to be true. Mary was actually touring England during negotiations. And no, she was not treated fairly or with consideration as an original member of the group. I don't think Diana understood that a reunion would be more than just her allowing the Supremes to join her. I didn't like people calling Scherrie and Lynda sub-Supremes when they joined. It really wasn't the right move to have them on the tour as none of them had worked together as Supremes during their Motown years, Scherrie and Lynda only after 1986 as the FLOs. I think there was the problems of Motown 25 and Dreamgirl along with Diana making statements that thinking Supremes songs were her songs, although she had no apparent problem with Scherrie & Lynda making a living singing them. Still, for a show that was not a reunion the ticket prices were high for that time, they didn't need additional background singers and dancers. I can also understand Mary felt hurt for not only not being "accepted" but being replaced by two singers that she actually chose and hired to be members of the Supremes. I honestly think if Diana and Mary had talked first and she had some input into the show, it would have been successful. Something about the dynamic of Diana and Mary was something the public wanted but also was the reason it would never happen. And that is sad.....

[thanxal]

Oh boy, RTL again.

LOL!!!
Also, I heard the Andantes are on some of the Supremes' songs.

[Ollie9]

Oh boy, RTL again. IMHO, those days were filled with reunions of groups and bands. A reunion of Diana Ross & The Supremes-Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong- would have worked. However, it needed to be a true reunion and every member should have been treated with dignity. I think the promoters and Diana thought Mary was just sitting by the phone waiting for the rumors to be true. Mary was actually touring England during negotiations. And no, she was not treated fairly or with consideration as an original member of the group. I don't think Diana understood that a reunion would be more than just her allowing the Supremes to join her. I didn't like people calling Scherrie and Lynda sub-Supremes when they joined. It really wasn't the right move to have them on the tour as none of them had worked together as Supremes during their Motown years, Scherrie and Lynda only after 1986 as the FLOs. I think there was the problems of Motown 25 and Dreamgirl along with Diana making statements that thinking Supremes songs were her songs, although she had no apparent problem with Scherrie & Lynda making a living singing them. Still, for a show that was not a reunion the ticket prices were high for that time, they didn't need additional background singers and dancers. I can also understand Mary felt hurt for not only not being "accepted" but being replaced by two singers that she actually chose and hired to be members of the Supremes. I honestly think if Diana and Mary had talked first and she had some input into the show, it would have been successful. Something about the dynamic of Diana and Mary was something the public wanted but also was the reason it would never happen. And that is sad.....

Diana calling the Supremes hits “my songs” was perhaps the wrong choice of words, but Mary’s accusation that Diana wanted everything for herself had made her defensive.
I think the point she was trying to make was that people bought those records not only for the terrific songs themselves, but also for the unique voice of the lead singer who made them something special.

[sup_fan]

Zero ground? Really? I'm sorry, that's a ridiculous and quite frankly disrespectful position.

She was the only other original member of the group they were trying to reunite. I mean why even talk about a reunion then?

They didn't take Mary Wilson seriously enough and the result was a flop tour and a PR disaster, in no small part because of that. If they couldn't have come to terms with Mary, then they should have just done a Diana Ross Greatest Hits tour and have been done with it.

i'm not trying to bash mary. but in both 83 and 00 mary was not a significant concert draw. let's get serious - promoters don't care about history or feelings or "what's right." they're working to create profitable tours. Diana by herself was hugely profitable and unfortunately the idea of reuniting the supremes frankly wasn't going to be all that much more profitable than a diana-solo tour. so if you were a promoter, you're going to focus on whatever will drive the fattest profit. Diana is a vital component. Mary was not. adding mary to a tour would not double the ticket sales. or enable the tour to jump to larger venues.

in regards to RTL, there was a myriad of problems that plagued it. you're right - the issue of M and C not participating was very large but even more damaging was the publicity mary stirred up to air her feelings. had she not done that [[and I'm not blaming her for doing so), things would have probably gone ok enough. but the tour was wildly expensive to produce and ticket sales were crazy high. even with DMC the tour would have struggled in many of the venues because they were booked at some of the largest arenas. and in the US, the public interest had dwindled for Diana. Europe would have done better

[sup_fan]

If Diana didn't want to do a reunion, she could have refused to go along with it, and quite frankly it would have been in her nature to do so. I think it's entirely possible that by the time of RTL, the fans were holding more grudges about the whole Mary vs Diana thing than Mary and Diana were. Feelings may have softened. I can imagine that when all the drama was fresh, Diana probably didn't want to work with Mary again. And honestly, after being shoved and having her hand pushed away by Diana, Mary would have been justified in not desiring to take the stage with Diana again also. But a lot had happened in the years since all of that. Mary lost her son in a horrific way and Diana lost her brother in a horrific manner. In the wake of those tragedies, as sometimes happens with tragedies, there may have been some softening of the hearts. So whether Diana conjured up the idea or it was brought to her, she had to have been unbothered by the chance to work with Mary again or she would have simply vetoed the idea and moved on.

I do believe that when Diana said she would never work with Mary again after RTL, she meant it.

i agree with you that i too was a bit surprised that Diana was open to the idea. it probably would have been best to just stick with the promoter's idea of doing a much larger, expanded segment on the Sups music, full renditions. performing them much more true to the original sound.

i'm guessing but i think the convoluted manner in which the idea of a reunion emerged resulted in the disjoined communications and the miscommunication. sounds like the idea was taking hold in the public well before it was a serious consideration for Diana. mary gets wind of it and then starts getting mad that she hasn't even been talked to yet. meanwhile Diana is still thinking she's doing a solo tour

[sup_fan]

Diana calling the Supremes hits “my songs” was perhaps the wrong choice of words, but Mary’s accusation that Diana wanted everything for herself had made her defensive.
I think the point she was trying to make was that people bought those records not only for the terrific songs themselves, but also for the unique voice of the lead singer who made them something special.

agreed - in the middle of an interview, i think sometimes you fumble for words. especially since this all happened within just a couple days. the back to back 20/20 interviews with M and D. she wasn't reading from prepared remarks.

when you listen to You Can't Hurry Love and it's diana singing it, it sounds very close to the original because you're familiar with the lead vocals and that's her voice. when it's the Dixie Chicks or Phil Collins or Mary Wilson singing the lead part, it can still sound great. but it can't sound like Diana because none of those vocalists sound like her. so it sounds more like a remake

[marybrewster]

Once the talk switched from doing a Supremes segment to doing a Supremes reunion, that's when the "planning" should have stopped and Mary and Cindy should have been brought in. Diana shouldn't have been "fronting" the tour. Everyone should have gotten an equal compensation. I'll say it for the back row: do you think Christine McVie got paid less than Stevie Nicks? Ha.

Yes, Diana is a superstar and made a kajillion dollars more than Mary Wilson. So, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross. But you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary.

The recent Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye performance is the closest and last thing we're ever going to get.

[RanRan79]

Diana calling the Supremes hits “my songs” was perhaps the wrong choice of words, but Mary’s accusation that Diana wanted everything for herself had made her defensive.
I think the point she was trying to make was that people bought those records not only for the terrific songs themselves, but also for the unique voice of the lead singer who made them something special.

Then combat Mary's statement with, "I've never wanted everything for myself. Regarding this tour, I'm an investor, Mary was not. I stood to either make money on my investment or lose money on my investment. Mary was only in position to make money, not lose any." Instead Diana reinforced Mary's statement. There's no denying that Diana was an attraction on the Supremes' hits, but Supremes songs didn't belong to just Diana, they belong to Mary too. What Diana said was insulting and dismissive.

[RanRan79]

Once the talk switched from doing a Supremes segment to doing a Supremes reunion, that's when the "planning" should have stopped and Mary and Cindy should have been brought in. Diana shouldn't have been "fronting" the tour. Everyone should have gotten an equal compensation. I'll say it for the back row: do you think Christine McVie got paid less than Stevie Nicks? Ha.

Yes, Diana is a superstar and made a kajillion dollars more than Mary Wilson. So, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross. But you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary.

The recent Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye performance is the closest and last thing we're ever going to get.

I agree, except Diana was also a financial backer of the tour. If an outsider came in and said here's 100 million dollars for a Supremes reunion tour, I do think it's only fair that the 100 would get split three ways. But when one Supreme is party to bringing the tour to fruition financially, the other two Supremes who are not contributing financially can't demand to make the same amount that the investor plans on recouping and profiting. That just doesn't make sense.

Now, had Berry Gordy decided he wanted to financially back a Supremes reunion and said he's willing to pay Diana 10 million to do it, Mary and Cindy 4 million to do it, then Diana looks at her worth and says she's worth 20 million and she's not willing to do it for anything less than that, I'd say that's fair. Now, Diana has demanded to be paid what she feels she's worth, and Mary looks at that and says if it's the Supremes they should be getting the same amount, so if Diana is getting 20, she and Cindy should get the same thing, I'd say that's fair too. But that's not how the tour was put together.

But I definitely agree that once it was decided to go with the Supremes idea, nothing should have moved forward until Diana and Mary got together to iron out some details, and there had to be total respect for all parties, not go alongs to get along. Mary deserved better than that.

[bradsupremes]

sounds like the idea was taking hold in the public well before it was a serious consideration for Diana. mary gets wind of it and then starts getting mad that she hasn't even been talked to yet. meanwhile Diana is still thinking she's doing a solo tour

There was planning and movement on the tour between Diana and the promoters before Mary was contacted in December 1999.

[lucky2012]

Diana calling the Supremes hits “my songs” was perhaps the wrong choice of words, but Mary’s accusation that Diana wanted everything for herself had made her defensive.
I think the point she was trying to make was that people bought those records not only for the terrific songs themselves, but also for the unique voice of the lead singer who made them something special.

Yes, “wrong choice of words” :[[ Very poor! but said in a defensive moment.

The Supremes were always a group for me, the HDH songs/productions are timeless to me and the Motown Sound is the soundtrack of my life. But I have to agree that “the unique voice of the lead singer…made them something special”. It was unmistakable, I always knew who it was and I was never fooled or convinced otherwise. I bought the Supremes records because of that voice. For me, no one else could “own” those “songs”.

[sup_fan]

There was planning and movement on the tour between Diana and the promoters before Mary was contacted in December 1999.

correct but wasn't it first conceived as a solo tour for Diana? and that within that tour they'd change things up and do a bigger Supremes segment? then later the idea of reuniting DMC was added.

so assuming this is true, then yes. Diana and promoters would be discussing things in advance of any dialogs with mary. the question is when did the "reunion" concept start to gel and what was that timeline. also did it start with the promoters and Diana thinking it was a good idea or was it more outside voices/forces starting to spin the idea around in the public?

i don't disagree that once the idea was becoming something Diana was giving some serious thought to, that it would have made sense for diana to at least talk with mary.

[Spreadinglove21]

Let's not forget in 1999/2000, Diana Ross' career as a contemporary pop star who could score hits was fading more and more into history, especially in the US. Doing a Supremes reunion was the ace up her sleeve to return to media and show business prominence. I believe once negotiations broke down she should have either done an Every day is a New Day tour, or tend to her personal issues and not tour at all. Don't forget not long after RTL failed she was checking into rehab stints and getting arrested for drunk driving so maybe her decision to move ahead with RTL with Lynda and Scherrie was impaired by her growing drinking [[and pills?) problem.

Certainly the decision to go ahead with RTL and doing a "reunion" with two women she never performed with played into the image she had as a selfish egotistical diva bitch. And Mary ran with it in her anti-RTL media campaign. That didn't help the tour.

In hindsight it should have never have happened. Only good thing to come from tour were the great charts composed for the Supremes song for that tour.

[marybrewster]

Any hopes of real reunion of the Supremes ended in 1976 when Flo Ballard passed away. What the fans really wanted in the 40 years after is for Diana and Mary in some capacity to have a special moment to acknowledge each other and have their contributions to music history recognized, together.

A more suitable reunion would have been a special Grammy where each recieved an award, said a few words, and took a few pictures. That, my darlings, would have been plenty.

Thankfully we did have a few moments near the end where Diana and Mary were cordial, and seemingly put a nice period at the end of the sentence.

[thanxal]

Any hopes of real reunion of the Supremes ended in 1976 when Flo Ballard passed away. What the fans really wanted in the 40 years after is for Diana and Mary in some capacity to have a special moment to acknowledge each other and have their contributions to music history recognized, together.

A more suitable reunion would have been a special Grammy where each recieved an award, said a few words, and took a few pictures. That, my darlings, would have been plenty.

Thankfully we did have a few moments near the end where Diana and Mary were cordial, and seemingly put a nice period at the end of the sentence.

Well said!

[jobeterob]

Any hopes of real reunion of the Supremes ended in 1976 when Flo Ballard passed away. What the fans really wanted in the 40 years after is for Diana and Mary in some capacity to have a special moment to acknowledge each other and have their contributions to music history recognized, together.

A more suitable reunion would have been a special Grammy where each recieved an award, said a few words, and took a few pictures. That, my darlings, would have been plenty.

Thankfully we did have a few moments near the end where Diana and Mary were cordial, and seemingly put a nice period at the end of the sentence.

Thanks about as nice a wrap up as could be made!

[telekin]

i'm not trying to bash mary. but in both 83 and 00 mary was not a significant concert draw.

I understand you're generally critical of Mary, often to the point of being dismissive, like you are here. No one's arguing she’s at the same level as Diana, but she had enough name recognition as an original Supreme to sustain a career as a working entertainer, had a couple of books to her name, one a best-seller. Even if she wasn't operating at the same level as Diana, that does not count for zero.

let's get serious - promoters don't care about history or feelings or "what's right." they're working to create profitable tours.

Really? You make it seem like these people were in the business of selling soap, not in the business of show, where dealing with big, fragile star egos and diva demands - in other words, history, feelings, insecurities, entitlements - is actually par for the course and part of the cost of doing business.

Diana by herself was hugely profitable and unfortunately the idea of reuniting the supremes frankly wasn't going to be all that much more profitable than a diana-solo tour. so if you were a promoter, you're going to focus on whatever will drive the fattest profit. Diana is a vital component. Mary was not. adding mary to a tour would not double the ticket sales. or enable the tour to jump to larger venues.

Do you know this or are you just assuming this?

Because this is not how I recall things going down at the time… Like you and others acknowledge, Diana wasn’t the draw she had been in earlier years. I remember DR openly lamenting to the press that her most recent album at the time had tanked, and that promoters were unsure about embarking on a tour on the back of that. A Diana Ross & The Supremes reunion, however, stood a greater chance with the public with her grudgingly remarking, and I’m paraphrasing here, “if this is what the people want, then I’ll give it to them.”

Like it or not, Mary was a vital part. Without her on-side you couldn’t call it a reunion and yes, it does make a difference. Whether or not members of the general public knew her or Cindy by name, just like when acts embark on “farewell tours,” billing it as a reunion would have been key to justifying higher ticket prices, larger venues, and ideally generating reams of positive buzz in the press and public good-will. Much needed at the time, particularly for Diana, who had come off a few diva controversies - I'm thinking about her interaction with Lil’ Kim at the 1999 MTV VMAs and that frisking incident at Heathrow. The controversy around RTL instead only added to the negative pile-on.

in regards to RTL, there was a myriad of problems that plagued it. you're right - the issue of M and C not participating was very large but even more damaging was the publicity mary stirred up to air her feelings. had she not done that [[and I'm not blaming her for doing so), things would have probably gone ok enough.

Well maybe, maybe not. One of the problems, and this is my opinion, was the branding and promotional strategy was off. Starting with the name, “Return to Love," which sounded like it was cooked up for a DRATS reunion, but when it became Diana, Lynda and Scherrie, no longer really fit.

While they were careful to emphasize that it was not a reunion, calling it “Return to Love” nevertheless kept all of the nostalgic connotations of a reunion. Given that Lynda and Scherrie had not sang with Diana before, this was an entirely new group, so what exactly were we “returning” to? Again, just my opinion, but it only added to the perception that they were selling something that wasn’t exactly what it was.

[Spreadinglove21]

I suspect Diana Ross was inspired to name the tour "Return to Love" as Marianne Williamson, a new agey self help writer who later ran for President in 2020, had a best selling book in 1996 called Return to Love and I suspect the book is the type of thing that Diana Ross, if her interviews, the Thank You album lyrics, and Secrets of a sparrow are any indication, enjoys.

https://www.amazon.com/Return-Love-R.../dp/0060927488

[rod_rick]

i'm not trying to bash mary. but in both 83 and 00 mary was not a significant concert draw. let's get serious - promoters don't care about history or feelings or "what's right." they're working to create profitable tours. Diana by herself was hugely profitable and unfortunately the idea of reuniting the supremes frankly wasn't going to be all that much more profitable than a diana-solo tour. so if you were a promoter, you're going to focus on whatever will drive the fattest profit. Diana is a vital component. Mary was not. adding mary to a tour would not double the ticket sales. or enable the tour to jump to larger venues.

in regards to RTL, there was a myriad of problems that plagued it. you're right - the issue of M and C not participating was very large but even more damaging was the publicity mary stirred up to air her feelings. had she not done that [[and I'm not blaming her for doing so), things would have probably gone ok enough. but the tour was wildly expensive to produce and ticket sales were crazy high. even with DMC the tour would have struggled in many of the venues because they were booked at some of the largest arenas. and in the US, the public interest had dwindled for Diana. Europe would have done better

Only speaking for myself, I was not interested in a tour with Diana Scherrie & Lynda and I damn sure wasn't going to pay those outrageous prices if Mary and Cindy were not on the tour. I will say I would pay to see Diana, Mary Cindy and the Flos in their own individual concerts.

[sup_fan]

I understand you're generally critical of Mary, often to the point of being dismissive, like you are here. No one's arguing she’s at the same level as Diana, but she had enough name recognition as an original Supreme to sustain a career as a working entertainer, had a couple of books to her name, one a best-seller. Even if she wasn't operating at the same level as Diana, that does not count for zero.



Really? You make it seem like these people were in the business of selling soap, not in the business of show, where dealing with big, fragile star egos and diva demands - in other words, history, feelings, insecurities, entitlements - is actually par for the course and part of the cost of doing business.



Do you know this or are you just assuming this?

Because this is not how I recall things going down at the time… Like you and others acknowledge, Diana wasn’t the draw she had been in earlier years. I remember DR openly lamenting to the press that her most recent album at the time had tanked, and that promoters were unsure about embarking on a tour on the back of that. A Diana Ross & The Supremes reunion, however, stood a greater chance with the public with her grudgingly remarking, and I’m paraphrasing here, “if this is what the people want, then I’ll give it to them.”

Like it or not, Mary was a vital part. Without her on-side you couldn’t call it a reunion and yes, it does make a difference. Whether or not members of the general public knew her or Cindy by name, just like when acts embark on “farewell tours,” billing it as a reunion would have been key to justifying higher ticket prices, larger venues, and ideally generating reams of positive buzz in the press and public good-will. Much needed at the time, particularly for Diana, who had come off a few diva controversies - I'm thinking about her interaction with Lil’ Kim at the 1999 MTV VMAs and that frisking incident at Heathrow. The controversy around RTL instead only added to the negative pile-on.




Well maybe, maybe not. One of the problems, and this is my opinion, was the branding and promotional strategy was off. Starting with the name, “Return to Love," which sounded like it was cooked up for a DRATS reunion, but when it became Diana, Lynda and Scherrie, no longer really fit.

While they were careful to emphasize that it was not a reunion, calling it “Return to Love” nevertheless kept all of the nostalgic connotations of a reunion. Given that Lynda and Scherrie had not sang with Diana before, this was an entirely new group, so what exactly were we “returning” to? Again, just my opinion, but it only added to the perception that they were selling something that wasn’t exactly what it was.

i don't believe it's being dismissive of mary to accurately call out that she was not a significant pop presence or concert draw in 1983 or 2000. just because i point out the flaws or mistakes one of the women makes, doesn't mean i'm "anti mary" or "anti diana"
but nor am i one of the minions that views one of the ladies as some sort of goddess.

nor should it be of any surprise that promoters are in the business of drawing a profit. they're not concerned about sentimentality. their focus is on volume of tickets sold. so yes, it is like selling soap. a ticket is a commodity. the emotional component comes in second. sure once a tour is announced and dates are being sold, everyone hypes up the activities to play on people's feelings. but in the end, a promoter isn't going to care whether or not Member X is on board, so long as the tour can still be profitable.

someone tried to compare the Supremes' reunion to Fleetwood Mac. problem is these are two very different musical acts. FM had multiple lead singers, they played their instruments, wrote their music. people in general see the various members as contributing a significant part of the overall song and sound. while core fans certainly feel that way about the supremes [[me included), the general public sees the group as "Diana Ross and two women who sang with her." there are a zillion reasons for this but like it or not, it's the reality.

Would people have enjoyed a Supremes reunion with DMC? sure. it would have sold very well. but would it have sold 2, 3 4X a diana ross solo tour? no. that vast majority of the ticket purchases probably would go see a DR show. you're not drawing in thousands and thousands of incremental purchasers.

i do agree with you that "reunion" would require DMC. and what diana tried to package up, although a lovely show, after all of the news hype, i agree that she should have just done a solo tour and cooled off at home a while. there was just too much negativity and there had been a long history of bad blood which this just added to

[sup_fan]

Only speaking for myself, I was not interested in a tour with Diana Scherrie & Lynda and I damn sure wasn't going to pay those outrageous prices if Mary and Cindy were not on the tour. I will say I would pay to see Diana, Mary Cindy and the Flos in their own individual concerts.

i can't remember exactly but weren't top ticket prices something like $250 or more? even a DMC reunion would have extreme difficulty in demanding that level of pricing. maybe if this was a massive 1 or 2 night event in Vegas or NY. but for taking this on the road, that was insane pricing.

perhaps if they'd done a major Vegas event with ALL of the Supremes in attendance and participating, you might have been able to pull that off. a mega show with a tour reunion and all of the lineups represented properly. you possibly could have done a few days of this. if it had been properly hyped up, you could have gotten people to travel to Vegas for it. or again, maybe it does just a few shows in top US cities. then perhaps Diana continues on as a solo tour, pushing Every Day and having a nice fat Sup segment in the act.

[marybrewster]

I compared the DRATS reunion to the Fleetwood Mac reunion. If you reread my post, it wasn't about the group itself or them writing songs, playing instruments, or singing. It was about them, as original members, receiving equal pay for their participation. Again, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross, but you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary Wilson.

And while I agree a solo Diana tour might have sold 2x 3x 4x more than a DRATS tour, that train had long left the station by 2000. I saw her just a few years later at a small venue; a far cry from the 10k and 20k venues she once could fill. But that happens to aging divas in the business: I saw both Tina and Cher on their "farewell" tours, and neither sold out.

Regardless, Diana is now happy playing state fairs and casinos. Any reunion ended with Flo's and Mary's passing.

[Ryon6]

I compared the DRATS reunion to the Fleetwood Mac reunion. If you reread my post, it wasn't about the group itself or them writing songs, playing instruments, or singing. It was about them, as original members, receiving equal pay for their participation. Again, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross, but you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary Wilson.

And while I agree a solo Diana tour might have sold 2x 3x 4x more than a DRATS tour, that train had long left the station by 2000. I saw her just a few years later at a small venue; a far cry from the 10k and 20k venues she once could fill. But that happens to aging divas in the business: I saw both Tina and Cher on their "farewell" tours, and neither sold out.

Regardless, Diana is now happy playing state fairs and casinos. Any reunion ended with Flo's and Mary's passing.

I’m late to the party and admit I didn’t read all the posts and forgive me if already mentioned but couldn’t Mary, Cindy and Scherrie appear as the Tempts opening act?

[Ollie9]

Some really interesting perspectives here. I can’t help wondering if questioned how Diana herself now feels about the extremely public events that led to the RTL tour being cancelled. Along with her divorce, it certainly appeared detrimental to her mental health. Would she have done things differently or still consider Mary the culprit.?
The time is now ripe for work to commence on that book M’s Ross.

[bradsupremes]

Some really interesting perspectives here. I can’t help wondering if questioned how Diana herself now feels about the extremely public events that led to the RTL tour being cancelled. Along with her divorce, it certainly appeared detrimental to her mental health. Would she have done things differently or still consider Mary the culprit.?
The time is now ripe for work to commence on that book M’s Ross.

Diana wasn't in a good state mentally when RTL took place. She had experienced some negative press regarding her behavior like the one at Heathrow, her marriage was ending, she was going through menopause, etc. A lot of the point of RTL was to bring back something positive from her past to help her move forward. I've always felt that if she was in the mindset she is in now back in 2000, the course of RTL would have gone much differently and she would have been more receptive to Mary and her requests.

[sup_fan]

I compared the DRATS reunion to the Fleetwood Mac reunion. If you reread my post, it wasn't about the group itself or them writing songs, playing instruments, or singing. It was about them, as original members, receiving equal pay for their participation. Again, you can have a Supremes reunion without Diana Ross, but you can't have a Supremes reunion without Mary Wilson.

And while I agree a solo Diana tour might have sold 2x 3x 4x more than a DRATS tour, that train had long left the station by 2000. I saw her just a few years later at a small venue; a far cry from the 10k and 20k venues she once could fill. But that happens to aging divas in the business: I saw both Tina and Cher on their "farewell" tours, and neither sold out.

Regardless, Diana is now happy playing state fairs and casinos. Any reunion ended with Flo's and Mary's passing.

i get it - and i only have limited knowledge of FM. my point in my reply was simply the general disinterest and disrespect the industry and the public applies to The Supremes. while i wish it wasn't the case, i believe the most people see the group as "diana ross and two other singers" and therefore the reunion of those 3 is not seen as noteworthy.

it's hard to determine exactly why - sexism, the girls didn't play instruments/write/produce, they were black girls with a white sound/look, motowns efforts to hype up diana as THE one. probably a bit of all of it

[bradsupremes]

it's hard to determine exactly why - sexism, the girls didn't play instruments/write/produce, they were black girls with a white sound/look, motowns efforts to hype up diana as THE one. probably a bit of all of it

It's all of those things with heavy emphasis on sexism and racism. The music industry is still a white man's game. Unless you're a woman who can do it all the industry is not going to raise you up. The Supremes have never been given the recognition by their peers for what they accomplished, influenced, and achieved. Some will say it's the backstage drama that hurt them but I don't believe that for one second. In our society, people crave the drama.

For them being the most important American group to have major success in the 60s and to be a counterbalance to the Beatles' chart domination, its rather shameful the music industry has not placed the ladies on the pedestal they deserve to be on. I think if Diana fully embraced her past it may have helped how the industry viewed them. But when she left in 1970, she really left. Yes, she still performs the music but not showing up for important achievements like the Rock Hall induction in 1988 or the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 1994, she gave the appearance she didn't care. I know she did and is proud of those achievements and wanted to give Mary the spotlight as the group was hers, but being absent gave the appearance she didn't care. The industry looks at that and thinks "Well if she doesn't care, why should we?" Especially now with Mary gone, who is carrying the Supremes torch? Diana hasn't picked it up.

[sup_fan]

It's all of those things with heavy emphasis on sexism and racism. The music industry is still a white man's game. Unless you're a woman who can do it all the industry is not going to raise you up. The Supremes have never been given the recognition by their peers for what they accomplished, influenced, and achieved. Some will say it's the backstage drama that hurt them but I don't believe that for one second. In our society, people crave the drama.

For them being the most important American group to have major success in the 60s and to be a counterbalance to the Beatles' chart domination, its rather shameful the music industry has not placed the ladies on the pedestal they deserve to be on. I think if Diana fully embraced her past it may have helped how the industry viewed them. But when she left in 1970, she really left. Yes, she still performs the music but not showing up for important achievements like the Rock Hall induction in 1988 or the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 1994, she gave the appearance she didn't care. I know she did and is proud of those achievements and wanted to give Mary the spotlight as the group was hers, but being absent gave the appearance she didn't care. The industry looks at that and thinks "Well if she doesn't care, why should we?" Especially now with Mary gone, who is carrying the Supremes torch? Diana hasn't picked it up.

totally agree. hollywood is similar. the lack of respect paid to women is shocking but not surprising. producers, directors and the big time wheelers/dealers are men. and white.

it's also a shame that more of current younger, successful women aren't doing more to lift up all women. while some people said Diana and Motown were just doing it for superficial or self-serving reasons, they did highlight music and musicians that preceded them. Diana's show obviously highlighted Lady but she also did others. her appearances on Hollywood Palace with Ethel and Sammy and others. their tribute albums. Lady Gaga has done a nice job with incorporating Tony Bennett and the American Songbook into her work. others should too