Mary - MIDNIGHT DANCER

[RanRan79]

She said it in one of the interviews she gave in 1975...may have been the JET magazine one.

Also can you imagine Flo having to deal with Pedro's shennanigans? I can't see that flying too well lol

How Berry Gordy got away with only a drink thrown in his face is a miracle. Pedro's shenanigans? Good grief. Florence would have probably gotten arrested for what she would have done to him.

Or, worst case scenario, Flo insists Tommy be co-manager, and now he and Pedro team up. I have a feeling the Supremes would have contained more horror stories than the original trio ended up with!

[Spreadinglove21]

Let's say Mary and Pedro reached out to Flo when they decided Cindy had to go and Flo accepted. Don't forget Flo died not longer after Susaye replaced Cindy. What would have been the damage to the group if Flo had died shortly after returning to the group? [[Presuming Motown would have permitted it).

[sup_fan]

How Berry Gordy got away with only a drink thrown in his face is a miracle. Pedro's shenanigans? Good grief. Florence would have probably gotten arrested for what she would have done to him.

Or, worst case scenario, Flo insists Tommy be co-manager, and now he and Pedro team up. I have a feeling the Supremes would have contained more horror stories than the original trio ended up with!

if Flo had been around with mary arriving backstage with a fresh shiner on her eye, Flo would have grabbed the beer bottle she was drinking from, smashed it on the edge of the dressing table, and cut Pedro's supposedly envious "member" off

or as TT quoted her as saying "she would have cut Pedro too short to shit!" lol

[Ollie9]

Scherrie made beautiful music on those Supremes albums. I love so many of her lead vocals. I wasn't saying that her singing was out of control [[although we know she, Mary and Susaye didn't always act like they knew what "control" singing meant when they were onstage). I think she sang the songs as was called for. But her voice is naturally big, tough, assertive. That is not how the public had come to view the Supremes. Scherrie was just too drastic of a change, IMO.

I don't think the public needed to really know Scherrie's persona. This wasn't bubblegum Supremes anymore. They were grown women, two of them with children and husbands. While their music "needed" to appeal to the youth in someway, these were adult Supremes. I don't think anyone needed to know the Supremes beyond the name and the sound. The public wanted good music. They didn't need to connect with individual members anymore. But a name like SUPREMES carries weight. That's a lot of legacy. It was most certainly a brand. Scherrie just didn't fit.

After Jean, it was most probably the vastly underused M’s Birdsong who possessed the style and sound of voice the public most expected to hear coming from the Supremes.
I guess we will never know how well she might have faired given the vocal training and opportunity to shine.

[Boogiedown]

Sounds like Mary was never close to considering Flo.

[RanRan79]

Let's say Mary and Pedro reached out to Flo when they decided Cindy had to go and Flo accepted. Don't forget Flo died not longer after Susaye replaced Cindy. What would have been the damage to the group if Flo had died shortly after returning to the group? [[Presuming Motown would have permitted it).

Well in reality, there's that. There's no evidence to suggest that what happened to Flo wouldn't have happened even if she had rejoined the group, so the scenario would have ultimately ended up worst case scenario. That kind of blow might have been too much for the public to get past.

We've all come to view Mary Wilson as a survivor. She survived domestic violence. She survived the death of her son and a major car accident. She survived the fate of probably 99.9 percent of people in her position as a famous singer. JRT often painted a picture of Mary in the 1960s as this cowering, fearful little girl in a woman's body. If she was ever that, she certainly grew out of it. The Mary we buried was a force to be reckoned with, in every sense of the term.

However, had she gotten it in her mind in 1975/76 to bring Flo back to the group, gone through the motions of preparing Flo for the stage act, maybe even started recording some stuff, the sentimental Mary would have probably been over the moon to have her friend back, and not just a friend but one of the girls who was with Mary from the very beginning in this thing called the Supremes. For Flo to die in the midst of that, I really think Mary would have been beyond devastated. So much so that ending the group right then and there might have been the call she made.

But then again, the music can help heal, so maybe Mary might have found some comfort in continuing the group, which would always be a part of Flo's legacy. Would the public be unable to get behind a new Supreme who took Flo's place so soon after her death? How much time would have to go by before even looking for Flo's replacement doesn't come across as gross? Or does the public rally around Mary and the new new new new new Supremes and give them an added boost out of sympathy?

So complicated. Death sucks.

[RanRan79]

After Jean, it was most probably the vastly underused M’s Birdsong who possessed the style and sound of voice the public most expected to hear coming from the Supremes.
I guess we will never know how well she might have faired given the vocal training and opportunity to shine.

Cindy's "problem" was that she didn't really have the chops for the job. Cindy was vocally talented, obviously. Maybe what she needed was on the job training by giving her some lead work. She has a little, itsy bitsy bit of leads, but perhaps nothing to help her develop as a lead vocalist. I think the reason why the original trio Supremes recordings contain three very capable lead singers is because all three were singing lead right out the gate, in the Primettes. I don't know that Cindy was ever lead singing anywhere, not even church or school. Seems like she was always in the background. And as such, she was a great background vocalist. The Bluebells' harmony was great. There wasn't someone who sticks out- negatively- and you go "Who the heck is that?". Lol As a Supreme, Cindy blended beautifully with Mary, and then later with Mary and Scherrie. So she had the backing vocalist thing down.

She sounds out of her league on "Baby You've Got What It Takes". But she does sound pretty good on "Sha La Bandit". I know we have the version with all three sharing leads, and then the versions with just Scherrie as lead, but I wonder if there are versions that were attempted with just Mary and just Cindy as well. Would be interesting to hear how well Cindy would have handled the entire song. Those demos she did at Scherrie's house, Cindy doesn't sound bad at all. There's something there, so maybe if it had been developed sooner, who knows? But I don't know that Cindy's voice had the warmth of previous Supremes lead singers.

I will say she really belts out her part in "Let the Sunshine In".

[marybrewster]

So what opinion do fans have regarding Scherrie being the only featured lead singer, recording wise at least?. Would it have lent the 74-77 grouping a stronger identity with the general public as opposed to shared leads???.

That's a good question: was Scherrie ACTUALLY the LEAD singer of the Supremes in the MSC and MSS era? Where Diana and Jean were CLEARLY the lead singers, by the time Scherrie joined, Mary was taking a good chunk of the leads, both on wax and live. So wouldn't she be more of a co-lead?

[blackguy69]

There was never an official announcement that Scherrie was the lead. Even when they did that first show in New Mexico, it was clear that there were 2 leads.

That's a good question: was Scherrie ACTUALLY the LEAD singer of the Supremes in the MSC and MSS era? Where Diana and Jean were CLEARLY the lead singers, by the time Scherrie joined, Mary was taking a good chunk of the leads, both on wax and live. So wouldn't she be more of a co-lead?

[Ollie9]

However, had she gotten it in her mind in 1975/76 to bring Flo back to the group, gone through the motions of preparing Flo for the stage act, maybe even started recording some stuff, the sentimental Mary would have probably been over the moon to have her friend back, and not just a friend but one of the girls who was with Mary from the very beginning.

As regards Florence possibly returning to the the group, there are two versions.
Flo mentions in the Peter Benjaminson book that she refused an offer via Mary to return to Motown. She states everything had been laid out and they were going to start vocal training as a solo ​act, not as a Supreme.
Mary’s version is that all she did was encourage Flo to find a good producer and get some good songs written to get her career going again. This seems the more likely.

[Ollie9]

That's a good question: was Scherrie ACTUALLY the LEAD singer of the Supremes in the MSC and MSS era? Where Diana and Jean were CLEARLY the lead singers, by the time Scherrie joined, Mary was taking a good chunk of the leads, both on wax and live. So wouldn't she be more of a co-lead?

On High Energy, Scherrie has four leads from seven songs. On MS&S she has five leads/co-leads from eight songs. That certainly makes her the most featured vocalist as regards Supremes recordings.

[Spreadinglove21]

On High Energy, Scherrie has four leads from seven songs. On MS&S she has five leads/co-leads from eight songs. That certainly makes her the most featured vocalist as regards Supremes recordings.

There are 8 songs on High energy [[though the transition from Til the Boat to I don't wanna lose you is seamless, they are separate songs by different songwriters). Scherrie leads 3, Mary 3, Susaye 1, and Scherrie and Mary share lead on 1.

[Ollie9]

There are 8 songs on High energy [[though the transition from Til the Boat to I don't wanna lose you is seamless, they are separate songs by different songwriters). Scherrie leads 3, Mary 3, Susaye 1, and Scherrie and Mary share lead on 1.

I always think of “Til The Boat” And “Lose You” as being one song which of course as you mention they are not. I could never understand why Scherrie was featured on “Your What’s Missing”, as Mary sounds really good and hardly in need of any support.
It’s worth noting that Scherrie is the featured voice on the majority of single releases.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I always think of “Til The Boat” And “Lose You” as being one song which of course as you mention they are not. I could never understand why Scherrie was featured on “Your What’s Missing”, as Mary sounds really good and hardly in need of any support.
It’s worth noting that Scherrie is the featured voice on the majority of single releases.

I have heard the full lead of both Mary and Scherrie on You're What's Missing and both individually do a great job. I think the Holland Brothers seamlessly wove their voices together so the song flowed better. The lines that seemed to have more of an individual flair from Mary and Scherrie were removed. I agree Mary did just fine on this song by herself but I can see what the Hollands were trying to achieve and it is one of the better songs on HE. Scherrie was considered the lead singer , I think, but Mary was pushing herself as co-lead as she did sing a good deal of leads especially on Supremes 75.

[blackguy69]

There have been plenty of interviews during this period they the girls stated that there was no clear cut lead singer. They way they were presented once Scherrie came in was more of an ensemble than a lead and back up.

[blackguy69]

And as I mentioned before Scherrie was never introduced as the lead singer. She was just the new girl who sang lead.

I have heard the full lead of both Mary and Scherrie on You're What's Missing and both individually do a great job. I think the Holland Brothers seamlessly wove their voices together so the song flowed better. The lines that seemed to have more of an individual flair from Mary and Scherrie were removed. I agree Mary did just fine on this song by herself but I can see what the Hollands were trying to achieve and it is one of the better songs on HE. Scherrie was considered the lead singer , I think, but Mary was pushing herself as co-lead as she did sing a good deal of leads especially on Supremes 75.

[Ollie9]

And as I mentioned before Scherrie was never introduced as the lead singer. She was just the new girl who sang lead.

I guess it all depends on how a lead singer is defined. The fact is Scherrie was lead singer on the majority of single releases and more album cuts then either Mary, Cindy or Susaye. Perhaps it’s something that didn’t need to be officially announced.

[blackguy69]

And Mary did the B sides.

I guess it all depends on how a lead singer is defined. The fact is Scherrie was lead singer on the majority of single releases and more album cuts then either Mary, Cindy or Susaye. Perhaps it’s something that didn’t need to be officially announced.

[rod_rick]

Cindy's "problem" was that she didn't really have the chops for the job. Cindy was vocally talented, obviously. Maybe what she needed was on the job training by giving her some lead work. She has a little, itsy bitsy bit of leads, but perhaps nothing to help her develop as a lead vocalist. I think the reason why the original trio Supremes recordings contain three very capable lead singers is because all three were singing lead right out the gate, in the Primettes. I don't know that Cindy was ever lead singing anywhere, not even church or school. Seems like she was always in the background. And as such, she was a great background vocalist. The Bluebells' harmony was great. There wasn't someone who sticks out- negatively- and you go "Who the heck is that?". Lol As a Supreme, Cindy blended beautifully with Mary, and then later with Mary and Scherrie. So she had the backing vocalist thing down.

She sounds out of her league on "Baby You've Got What It Takes". But she does sound pretty good on "Sha La Bandit". I know we have the version with all three sharing leads, and then the versions with just Scherrie as lead, but I wonder if there are versions that were attempted with just Mary and just Cindy as well. Would be interesting to hear how well Cindy would have handled the entire song. Those demos she did at Scherrie's house, Cindy doesn't sound bad at all. There's something there, so maybe if it had been developed sooner, who knows? But I don't know that Cindy's voice had the warmth of previous Supremes lead singers.

I will say she really belts out her part in "Let the Sunshine In".

I like Cindy's lead on You've Got What It Takes and don't like she's out of her league after Mary's lead on that song. There was something there in Cindy's voice and you get a glimpse of it on the Floy Joy and Love The One You're With live version as well as EGTRTL. I'm sure the right producer with some time and care could have gotten something great out of her.

[Ollie9]

And Mary did the B sides.

Exactly. Point made.

[blackguy69]

Exactly. Point made.

Your point wasn’t made. The way MSC was presented, clearly it was not a Scherrie led group but more of a Mary led group. MSS was more balanced between Mary and Scherrie with Susaye getting her spotlight.

[Ollie9]

Your point wasn’t made. The way MSC was presented, clearly it was not a Scherrie led group but more of a Mary led group. MSS was more balanced between Mary and Scherrie with Susaye getting her spotlight.

I agree that in concert the leads were more often then not shared. The point I was making being that on their albums, Scherrie was the featured lead vocalist far more then the others. Importantly, that includes the majority of single releases from the group.
To my mind this makes her somewhat of a front woman, if not bonafide lead singer.

[Spreadinglove21]

So much drama about singing lead! One moment I recall from Supreme Faith was Mary recounting showing up at the studio to sing one of her leads on Supremes 75 and freezing at the mic because Scherrie and Cindy were throwing shade at Mary because they were jealous and resentful that Mary was singing lead at the session.

[jim aka jtigre99]

On Soul Train, where Mary sang lead on the 4 tunes they did there, an audience member asked her how did she feel about something as the new lead and Mary responded by saying first of all I'm not the lead[[while moving backwards and being shoulder to shoulder with the group) and said there was a lot of sharing within the group. In Supreme Faith, Mary also said when Susaye joined she freed them up with their vocals but also said Susaye always had them guessing where she would be and that she and Scherrie pulled back vocally so it didn't sound like all three were trying to sing lead and said Scherrie was gracious and that most lead singers would have thrown a fit. So, I think in Mary's mind there was far more sharing, that Scherrie replaced Jean, who was the lead singer but for songs that were their forte she and later, Susaye, would also sing lead. So, in ways, Scherrie was the lead singer but there was also sharing so it wasn't the lead singer and backups. Of course, that had changed somewhat once Jean joined. Mary sang some lead lines and featured leads and Cindy even had some lead lines-the Scherrie era just took that much further.

[Ollie9]

On Soul Train, where Mary sang lead on the 4 tunes they did there, an audience member asked her how did she feel about something as the new lead and Mary responded by saying first of all I'm not the lead[[while moving backwards and being shoulder to shoulder with the group) and said there was a lot of sharing within the group. In Supreme Faith, Mary also said when Susaye joined she freed them up with their vocals but also said Susaye always had them guessing where she would be and that she and Scherrie pulled back vocally so it didn't sound like all three were trying to sing lead and said Scherrie was gracious and that most lead singers would have thrown a fit. So, I think in Mary's mind there was far more sharing, that Scherrie replaced Jean, who was the lead singer but for songs that were their forte she and later, Susaye, would also sing lead. So, in ways, Scherrie was the lead singer but there was also sharing so it wasn't the lead singer and backups. Of course, that had changed somewhat once Jean joined. Mary sang some lead lines and featured leads and Cindy even had some lead lines-the Scherrie era just took that much further.

I think that sums it up well Jim.

[blackguy69]

Also when they were being interviewed on KDAY promoting the Shubert show on around the same period the question of lead singing came up. And the response was there was no clear lead singer, there’s something for everyone.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I would have to say in hindsight, if Motown wanted to release a more up tempo song that I would have preferred Midnight Dancer over Red Hot. I still like I Love A Warm Summer Night as a possible second single and Pick Up The Pieces as a third possible one. They were better in my choice of song over Red Hot and I've got What You Need and You Make Me Feel So Good sound so much alike they are almost interchangeable with one another. You're The Light That Guides My Way is also a decent song on the album. Like I said, it took me years to appreciate Red Hot and see the correlation with James Brown.

[sup_fan]

On Soul Train, where Mary sang lead on the 4 tunes they did there, an audience member asked her how did she feel about something as the new lead and Mary responded by saying first of all I'm not the lead[[while moving backwards and being shoulder to shoulder with the group) and said there was a lot of sharing within the group. In Supreme Faith, Mary also said when Susaye joined she freed them up with their vocals but also said Susaye always had them guessing where she would be and that she and Scherrie pulled back vocally so it didn't sound like all three were trying to sing lead and said Scherrie was gracious and that most lead singers would have thrown a fit. So, I think in Mary's mind there was far more sharing, that Scherrie replaced Jean, who was the lead singer but for songs that were their forte she and later, Susaye, would also sing lead. So, in ways, Scherrie was the lead singer but there was also sharing so it wasn't the lead singer and backups. Of course, that had changed somewhat once Jean joined. Mary sang some lead lines and featured leads and Cindy even had some lead lines-the Scherrie era just took that much further.

Susaye was asked about these claims from Mary about how susaye would deviate from the routine or song, how she would keep them guessing by doing thing differently from what was rehearsed. Susaye responded w a very classy and simple comment, saying she has ALWAYS been a professional and wouldn’t never just surprise people on stage with something out of the blue

So Mary’s comments could certainly be her point of view but that doesn’t mean they’re true

Their entire routine during these years was a free for all. In the videos I’ve seen, susaye isn’t doing anything the others aren’t. All of them are all over the place and I agree it’s not a strong stage show. But [[as w much of Mary’s books) I seriously question the validity.

Mary also credits susaye w being a catalyst for making her more free in her vocals and performance. So which is it?

[TheMotownManiac]

I guess it all depends on how a lead singer is defined. The fact is Scherrie was lead singer on the majority of single releases and more album cuts then either Mary, Cindy or Susaye. Perhaps it’s something that didn’t need to be officially announced.

Back in the day, Scherrie was considered the lead singer. When you saw their show however, Mary definitely appeared to be the lead.

[TheMotownManiac]

Well in reality, there's that. There's no evidence to suggest that what happened to Flo wouldn't have happened even if she had rejoined the group, so the scenario would have ultimately ended up worst case scenario. That kind of blow might have been too much for the public to get past.

We've all come to view Mary Wilson as a survivor. She survived domestic violence. She survived the death of her son and a major car accident. She survived the fate of probably 99.9 percent of people in her position as a famous singer. JRT often painted a picture of Mary in the 1960s as this cowering, fearful little girl in a woman's body. If she was ever that, she certainly grew out of it. The Mary we buried was a force to be reckoned with, in every sense of the term.

However, had she gotten it in her mind in 1975/76 to bring Flo back to the group, gone through the motions of preparing Flo for the stage act, maybe even started recording some stuff, the sentimental Mary would have probably been over the moon to have her friend back, and not just a friend but one of the girls who was with Mary from the very beginning in this thing called the Supremes. For Flo to die in the midst of that, I really think Mary would have been beyond devastated. So much so that ending the group right then and there might have been the call she made.

But then again, the music can help heal, so maybe Mary might have found some comfort in continuing the group, which would always be a part of Flo's legacy. Would the public be unable to get behind a new Supreme who took Flo's place so soon after her death? How much time would have to go by before even looking for Flo's replacement doesn't come across as gross? Or does the public rally around Mary and the new new new new new Supremes and give them an added boost out of sympathy?

So complicated. Death sucks.

bringing Florence back would’ve saved the group, at least in the short term. Of course her health issues are a definite consideration, but, it’s also possible that she would’ve been taking better care of herself and had better medical attention and early demise may have been prevented altogether. I think Jean, Mary and Florence would’ve been a very interesting trio. I can’t even imagine if I would like it or not, because it is so hard for me to put Flo and Jean in the same picture, but she was very well loved and have brought that much-needed spark back to the group.

of course we are assuming that Flo would’ve have herself together enough to be a member of the group, but there’s one other variable that we’re not considering yet: Mary wanted to be in control of the group I’m not sure how Flo would have felt about that. If Jean was still in the group, and she got along with Florence, it might have helped her dynamic with Mary.

adding Florence in 75 or 76, would’ve made for a very interesting dynamic. Honestly, I never cared for Cindy or her voice. I feel bad saying that because she is a real sweetheart and doesn’t deserve to get bashed, but it’s just my preference and I can’t help it. I don’t at all care for her voice by her self, it’s certainly serviceable in small doses like to meet has no personality or definable sound. When she joined the group, of course she paled in comparison, and it really threw more attention on Diana, while Mary became dominant in the background. I have come to realize that Cindy was absolutely the ideal choice, and did a superb job of stepping in and getting the job done. I can’t imagine anyone doing it better: she was reliable, she moved well, I liked their blend she was perfect except she just didn’t shine as brightly. So, Scherrie, Mary and Flo would be the ideal trio, and I think they would’ve had a much better chance. Plus I’m certain that Florence would get along perfectly with SherrieI don’t know how it would’ve worked with Jean but it would’ve been interesting to watch.


It’s been a long time since I read JRT, so I don’t recall how Mary was portrayed, but everything I know of her in the 60s is far from a timid cowering anything.

[Ollie9]

bringing Florence back would’ve saved the group, at least in the short term. Of course her health issues are a definite consideration, but, it’s also possible that she would’ve been taking better care of herself and had better medical attention and early demise may have been prevented altogether. I think Jean, Mary and Florence would’ve been a very interesting trio. I can’t even imagine if I would like it or not, because it is so hard for me to put Flo and Jean in the same picture, but she was very well loved and have brought that much-needed spark back to the group.

of course we are assuming that Flo would’ve have herself together enough to be a member of the group, but there’s one other variable that we’re not considering yet: Mary wanted to be in control of the group I’m not sure how Flo would have felt about that. If Jean was still in the group, and she got along with Florence, it might have helped her dynamic with Mary.

adding Florence in 75 or 76, would’ve made for a very interesting dynamic. Honestly, I never cared for Cindy or her voice. I feel bad saying that because she is a real sweetheart and doesn’t deserve to get bashed, but it’s just my preference and I can’t help it. I don’t at all care for her voice by her self, it’s certainly serviceable in small doses like to meet has no personality or definable sound. When she joined the group, of course she paled in comparison, and it really threw more attention on Diana, while Mary became dominant in the background. I have come to realize that Cindy was absolutely the ideal choice, and did a superb job of stepping in and getting the job done. I can’t imagine anyone doing it better: she was reliable, she moved well, I liked their blend she was perfect except she just didn’t shine as brightly. So, Scherrie, Mary and Flo would be the ideal trio, and I think they would’ve had a much better chance. Plus I’m certain that Florence would get along perfectly with SherrieI don’t know how it would’ve worked with Jean but it would’ve been interesting to watch.


It’s been a long time since I read JRT, so I don’t recall how Mary was portrayed, but everything I know of her in the 60s is far from a timid cowering anything.

Flo is documented as saying she would never have returned to the group..
Cindy’s delicate, less commanding voice made perfect for those light, almost ethereal early 70’s productions. A Florence ballad type voice might not have worked so well.

[daviddh]

im sure if florence was offered the right amount of money,she would say yes.
i am not sure if she were in a place to say no. unfortunately we lost her way to soon.

[Boogiedown]

Has it been mentioned that Florence was also mothering three children

[Ollie9]

im sure if florence was offered the right amount of money,she would say yes.
i am not sure if she were in a place to say no. unfortunately we lost her way to soon.

Not everyone can be bought. Flo was terrified of the same thing happening to her again. She said herself that she would rather remain poor then go back to Motown.

[RanRan79]

I like Cindy's lead on You've Got What It Takes and don't like she's out of her league after Mary's lead on that song. There was something there in Cindy's voice and you get a glimpse of it on the Floy Joy and Love The One You're With live version as well as EGTRTL. I'm sure the right producer with some time and care could have gotten something great out of her.

We'll have to agree to disagree on "Baby" and the live performances you mention. To me Cindy sounds like somebody they pulled out of an audience to sing along. However, she really does sound pretty darn good on "Sha La Bandit" and on the 1978 demos, although the latter is a bit difficult to judge because of how they were recorded and how heavily bootlegged the audio probably is at this point. I do know that the performance Cindy gave on the 700 Club in the late 80s or early 90s was head and shoulders more advanced than most of what we heard in the 70s. Now it could be the style of song was just better suited to her. Cindy didn't do any ballad singing in the 70s that I can think of. Also by the time of the 700 Club appearance, Cindy had launched a solo career, so she had more experience beyond backing vocal work at this point. So I do agree that if she sang more leads and was in the hands of the right producer, we may have gotten some really nice stuff from Cindy.

[RanRan79]

Susaye was asked about these claims from Mary about how susaye would deviate from the routine or song, how she would keep them guessing by doing thing differently from what was rehearsed. Susaye responded w a very classy and simple comment, saying she has ALWAYS been a professional and wouldn’t never just surprise people on stage with something out of the blue

So Mary’s comments could certainly be her point of view but that doesn’t mean they’re true

Their entire routine during these years was a free for all. In the videos I’ve seen, susaye isn’t doing anything the others aren’t. All of them are all over the place and I agree it’s not a strong stage show. But [[as w much of Mary’s books) I seriously question the validity.

Mary also credits susaye w being a catalyst for making her more free in her vocals and performance. So which is it?

Why can't it be both? Couldn't Susaye have gone "rogue", thus leading to the free for all, which also led to Mary learning how to be freer with her vocals?

And if it's worth pointing out that Mary's comments are her POV but it doesn't make it true, can't the same be said for Susaye's comments, which are her own POV but not necessarily the way it was?

I'm not nearly as well versed in the live performances of the Scherrie years as some of the rest of you, but it seems to me that when Cindy was in the group, neither Scherrie nor Mary were really all over the place. While Scherrie was certainly a different kind of singer than the Supremes were usually used to, to me it still sounds like a cohesive group. So what happened from Cindy to Susaye? I suspect Susaye was the catalyst for the change in how the group went from cohesive to every woman for herself, thus leading me to give more validity to Mary's accusation than Susaye's response.

[RanRan79]

there’s one other variable that we’re not considering yet: Mary wanted to be in control of the group I’m not sure how Flo would have felt about that.

I did consider that, in post #144.

Flo had a big problem when the Supremes seemed to go from equal partners to unequal partners, so it stands to reason that if she had come back to "Mary's Supremes", she may have wanted it to be equal partners again, certainly between herself and Mary. Might Flo have humbled herself and deferred to Mary's status as the longest reigning Supreme? I guess it's possible. Probable? I don't know 'bout all that. Flo had an ego too and I don't know if the things she had been through over the last few years was enough to wipe it out. The Supremes at this point was Mary's group and I suspect that she liked it that way. The idea of having to share "custody" with either Flo, or even Diana, would likely not have been attractive to her.

Of course it's all conjecture for discussion sake. Flo was not interested in being a Supreme again and was looking to give a solo career another try. Mary was trying to keep the Supremes afloat and was looking to add members who were less likely to rock the boat.

It would've been really interesting to see what direction Flo took as a solo artist at this point. I could hear her doing disco, but don't know if that's what she would have wanted to do. With everything she had been through I wonder if those experiences could've translated into material she could've sunk her teeth into.

[RanRan79]

im sure if florence was offered the right amount of money,she would say yes.
i am not sure if she were in a place to say no. unfortunately we lost her way to soon.

Maybe if when she was on welfare, if the offer was on the table, she might have decided to rejoin the group if it was going to help provide for her children. But I'm not sure she'd be willing to commit to the kind of schedule the Supremes had at this point, knowing how much of a devoted mother she was. A solo career might have allowed Flo more liberties with a schedule, as well as traveling with the children sometimes.

When the news broke that Flo was down on her luck, she was offered a singing engagement in New York, I believe. She turned it down.

[sup_fan]

Why can't it be both? Couldn't Susaye have gone "rogue", thus leading to the free for all, which also led to Mary learning how to be freer with her vocals?

And if it's worth pointing out that Mary's comments are her POV but it doesn't make it true, can't the same be said for Susaye's comments, which are her own POV but not necessarily the way it was?

I'm not nearly as well versed in the live performances of the Scherrie years as some of the rest of you, but it seems to me that when Cindy was in the group, neither Scherrie nor Mary were really all over the place. While Scherrie was certainly a different kind of singer than the Supremes were usually used to, to me it still sounds like a cohesive group. So what happened from Cindy to Susaye? I suspect Susaye was the catalyst for the change in how the group went from cohesive to every woman for herself, thus leading me to give more validity to Mary's accusation than Susaye's response.

there's a limited amount of material we can pull from but there does appear to be a difference in the approach to the show between the MSC and MSS lineups. clearly they decided that with MSS there were 3 lead singers to highlight, if by no other evidence then they added solos from the very beginning for Susaye. other than the Dream sequence, Cindy didn't really have any full solos that i know of. maybe a line here or there, plus being Marilyn Monroe.

i have 4 or 5 shows of the MSS lineup on bootleg cassettes, plus the various tv shows that most of us have seen on youtube. based on these, i'm not hearing or seeing anything drastically different or disruptive. in the studios, starting with Walking, they began adding Susaye's vocals as ad libs and color to songs. they did this on Wheel, Let yourself go, the ending of Sweet Dream Machine. they're even on Don't Wanna Be Tied down, but for some reason on this track they're very buried in the mix. so they clearly were going for a different sound that encouraged the singers to be creative with their vocals

the live show seems to be an attempt to continue this. although you can argue about how successful that was. there are obviously all of the ad libs and things they do in the live version of LYG, often in the slow My World Is Empty as Scherrie is wrapping it up you'll hear Susaye do light echoes and ad libs.

But in none of the things i've heard have i ever heard Susaye attempting to take over lead [[like ironically Mary did on Someday at the motown 25). And susaye isn't the only one doing these ad libs and theatrics. mary is doing them too. during Susaye's leads, Scherrie is also chiming in.

And in the handful of videos, there doesn't appear to be any points where Susaye is not following the general choreography. if you look at some of the LYG live clips, IMO Mary is the one with the sloppier execution of the choreography. of course i myself do actually know the full routine lolol having danced it in the house many many times lol. the full routine from the HE videos is quite complex but if done with precision, it would have been very impressive. they took parts of this for the live show, and frankly none of them were really very polished with it. especially mary. which is odd since in the 60s she was flawless with the group moves.

in the end, unless a fan has specific content they can share, we don't know really what happened and can only guess. to accuse a performer of this though is pretty serious, not to us maybe but definitely to a trained and respected performer. it's really a low blow to their professional dignity. mary says she did but susaye says she did not. given how mary really did use both books to make digs at all of the other women in the group and given how fans have shared through the years that all of these women have VERY different view points of both the group events and of mary, i'm more inclined to believe Susaye.

[sup_fan]

I did consider that, in post #144.

Flo had a big problem when the Supremes seemed to go from equal partners to unequal partners, so it stands to reason that if she had come back to "Mary's Supremes", she may have wanted it to be equal partners again, certainly between herself and Mary. Might Flo have humbled herself and deferred to Mary's status as the longest reigning Supreme? I guess it's possible. Probable? I don't know 'bout all that. Flo had an ego too and I don't know if the things she had been through over the last few years was enough to wipe it out. The Supremes at this point was Mary's group and I suspect that she liked it that way. The idea of having to share "custody" with either Flo, or even Diana, would likely not have been attractive to her.

Of course it's all conjecture for discussion sake. Flo was not interested in being a Supreme again and was looking to give a solo career another try. Mary was trying to keep the Supremes afloat and was looking to add members who were less likely to rock the boat.

It would've been really interesting to see what direction Flo took as a solo artist at this point. I could hear her doing disco, but don't know if that's what she would have wanted to do. With everything she had been through I wonder if those experiences could've translated into material she could've sunk her teeth into.

i think there are two different scenarios to consider and we can use the Diana period for this.

within the framework of the original Supremes, except for maybe very very very early, Flo was never THE lead singer. Flo was never really the "shared" lead, shouldering half or so of the work. in 61 or so, Flo did some lead recordings but of the overall recordings, that was barely 1/3 of the total. by 62 it was all Diana leads, for the most part. with occasional for F and M. the earliest live recordings we have for the group also support this.

reason i'm dredging this back up is to show that during the DMF era, there were several years where it was most clearly Diana as the lead singer with occasional leads from M and F. there was a lot of 3-part harmony work though, and the overall presentation was still that of a group

where by 66 that group approach was declining. the recordings were becoming more of an assembly-line approach, just crank things out. even the glorious R&H set doesn't have quite the same 3-part harmonies or group approach as the earlier sets like Sam Cook or There's A Place. so it was clear that the group was evolving in a DR launch pad. and trouble brewed up

so if Flo came back for a possible MSF lineup or something, i don't immediately think Flo would have rebelled against the idea. if they approached the MSF line up like they did the MSS lineup, with 3 singers being spotlighted, i think it is possible flo would have been fine. i don't think she thought she HAD to be the primary or only lead singer. i don't think she would have begrudged mary being heavily featured. but i do think the bullshit that M and Pedro offered up with using the group as a launch pad for Mary's solo career would have been a problem. just like it was in the 60s

[captainjames]

Ran Ran--that's not how Gladys felt about it! In Darlene Love's book, she explained that Gladys felt that all she ever got at Motown were Diana's "sloppy seconds." That's why she left Motown. I wasn't saying no other females got hits--they did--but it was clear that only one got the big push!

That was just Gladys being Gladys again.

Gladys got "Didn't you Know You didn't have to Cry" first and Diana didn't get it later until A&S second album on her. Didn't Gladys also record "Sorry Doesn't Always Make it Right" after leaving Motown. There was also "Nitty Gritty" which Gladys recorded and her group's song was released and Diana Ross and the Supremes version was not. I have to question at times what Gladys says because at times it is not seemless and seems superficial to me.

[PeaceNHarmony]

That was just Gladys being Gladys again.

Gladys got "Didn't you Know You didn't have to Cry" first and Diana didn't get it later until A&S second album on her. Didn't Gladys also record "Sorry Doesn't Always Make it Right" after leaving Motown. There was also "Nitty Gritty" which Gladys recorded and her group's song was released and Diana Ross and the Supremes version was not. I have to question at times what Gladys says because at times it is not seemless and seems superficial to me.

I love Gladys' talent and her on-stage personality but for decades now she has proven herself a bitter-Betty over and over again; her chosen Morman faith seems to have done her no favors whatsoever in terms of granting her serenity and peace of mind. Nor has age.

[sup_fan]

That was just Gladys being Gladys again.

Gladys got "Didn't you Know You didn't have to Cry" first and Diana didn't get it later until A&S second album on her. Didn't Gladys also record "Sorry Doesn't Always Make it Right" after leaving Motown. There was also "Nitty Gritty" which Gladys recorded and her group's song was released and Diana Ross and the Supremes version was not. I have to question at times what Gladys says because at times it is not seemless and seems superficial to me.

does anyone know what type of creative control or involvement GKATP had to Buddha? clearly they had excellent success there but how did the experience differ from their motown success?

their last "real" motown album was Neither One Of Us. it hit #1 soul and #9 pop. Imagination on Buddha [[which contained Midnight Train and best thing that ever happened), matched those rankings. Claudine did ok. I Feel A Song performed well on both charts.

i understand her feeling that she would always be in DR's shadow. but seems like there was considerable success for the group. true, they were recording a lot of covers, as was motown's way. but they did include some covers on the Buddha discs too.

[jobeterob]

We can only wonder why both Gladys Knight and Aretha Franklin seemed so publicly bitter time and again. They both appear to have had money problems but the unhappiness probably goes way back before Motown.

They both had major success, wonderful careers, especially Aretha. But having children at 12 and 14 is an indication of major problems that will never go away.

Both of them exhibit[[ed) bitterness that you never saw from Mary Wilson who had much less of a career outside the Supremes.

[sup_fan]

We can only wonder why both Gladys Knight and Aretha Franklin seemed so publicly bitter time and again. They both appear to have had money problems but the unhappiness probably goes way back before Motown.

They both had major success, wonderful careers, especially Aretha. But having children at 12 and 14 is an indication of major problems that will never go away.

Both of them exhibit[[ed) bitterness that you never saw from Mary Wilson who had much less of a career outside the Supremes.

oh i don't know that i would say MW wasn't bitter. starting in the 80s there appear to be multiple instances of this, starting with Motown 25. seems her bitterness would alter between Motown, Gordy, Suzanne, Diana. but clearly she carried a lot of frustration from her Supremes' days

[reese]

does anyone know what type of creative control or involvement GKATP had to Buddha? clearly they had excellent success there but how did the experience differ from their motown success?

their last "real" motown album was Neither One Of Us. it hit #1 soul and #9 pop. Imagination on Buddha [[which contained Midnight Train and best thing that ever happened), matched those rankings. Claudine did ok. I Feel A Song performed well on both charts.

i understand her feeling that she would always be in DR's shadow. but seems like there was considerable success for the group. true, they were recording a lot of covers, as was motown's way. but they did include some covers on the Buddha discs too.

Gladys and the Pips co-produced a lot of their Buddah material. Their first four albums for that label were certified gold but after that, sales fell off. But by that time, they had their own NBC network specials in addition to a summer series. So they had really reached a new level of success, especially with the #1 MIDNIGHT TRAIN TO GEORGIA. In the later Buddah years, Gladys did a film PIPE DREAMS that didn't do so well, and she and the Pips [[for Casablanca) each did solo albums, none of which did well.

I think Gladys and the guys were very successful at Motown. Most of their records sold well. They played top spots like the Copa and Vegas. And they were often on television. I gather Gladys wanted more attention than Motown gave and probably couldn't accept that she would never be the Queen while at Motown.

Yet there is still this incorrect perception that the group languished there. Even as early as 1973, EBONY magazine was suggesting that Motown kept the group on "ice" and their only successful records there were GRAPEVINE, IF I WERE YOUR WOMAN, I DON'T WANT TO DO WRONG, and NEITHER ONE OF US, which is far from the truth.

And according to Pip William Guest, the group did attempt to renegotiate with Motown when their contract came up for renewal. But they wanted $1 million and Ewart Abner refused to pay that.

[captainjames]

Gladys Knight & The Pips got "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" released first before Marvin Gaye as well but I believe Marvin Gaye came back a year later with a bigger hit. One thing I know about Motown was that they would try the same song on different singers to see which one sounded better. Gladys Knight had some great songs with Motown and I still play them. I am not aware of any bitterness with Aretha and any of the Supremes. Remember these performers were very young at this time and a lot of growing up had to take place. However, when Gladys make statements like she does, someone needs to remind her of all the great songs that she had at Motown that no one else could sing like she did. However, she did not attend Motown 25 so something could have been brewing then.

[sup_fan]

i wonder if the sting of Grapevine lingered through the majority of the motown tenure. I read in one of the books that a reviewer incorrectly called out that the group did a cover of Gaye's Grapevine. i'm sure that stung.

interesting to know they coproduced some of their Buddha material. yeah that would never have happened at Motown. so it seems like a good move from a creative perspective too

[RanRan79]

there's a limited amount of material we can pull from but there does appear to be a difference in the approach to the show between the MSC and MSS lineups. clearly they decided that with MSS there were 3 lead singers to highlight, if by no other evidence then they added solos from the very beginning for Susaye. other than the Dream sequence, Cindy didn't really have any full solos that i know of. maybe a line here or there, plus being Marilyn Monroe.

i have 4 or 5 shows of the MSS lineup on bootleg cassettes, plus the various tv shows that most of us have seen on youtube. based on these, i'm not hearing or seeing anything drastically different or disruptive. in the studios, starting with Walking, they began adding Susaye's vocals as ad libs and color to songs. they did this on Wheel, Let yourself go, the ending of Sweet Dream Machine. they're even on Don't Wanna Be Tied down, but for some reason on this track they're very buried in the mix. so they clearly were going for a different sound that encouraged the singers to be creative with their vocals

the live show seems to be an attempt to continue this. although you can argue about how successful that was. there are obviously all of the ad libs and things they do in the live version of LYG, often in the slow My World Is Empty as Scherrie is wrapping it up you'll hear Susaye do light echoes and ad libs.

But in none of the things i've heard have i ever heard Susaye attempting to take over lead [[like ironically Mary did on Someday at the motown 25). And susaye isn't the only one doing these ad libs and theatrics. mary is doing them too. during Susaye's leads, Scherrie is also chiming in.

And in the handful of videos, there doesn't appear to be any points where Susaye is not following the general choreography. if you look at some of the LYG live clips, IMO Mary is the one with the sloppier execution of the choreography. of course i myself do actually know the full routine lolol having danced it in the house many many times lol. the full routine from the HE videos is quite complex but if done with precision, it would have been very impressive. they took parts of this for the live show, and frankly none of them were really very polished with it. especially mary. which is odd since in the 60s she was flawless with the group moves.

in the end, unless a fan has specific content they can share, we don't know really what happened and can only guess. to accuse a performer of this though is pretty serious, not to us maybe but definitely to a trained and respected performer. it's really a low blow to their professional dignity. mary says she did but susaye says she did not. given how mary really did use both books to make digs at all of the other women in the group and given how fans have shared through the years that all of these women have VERY different view points of both the group events and of mary, i'm more inclined to believe Susaye.

I wouldn't say the accusation is "serious". Lol Almost every group seems to have had some issue with one member doing too much. It should come as no surprise that the Supremes would be any different. The point where Mary criticizes Susaye's actions is toward the end of the Supremes when there was a lot going on emotionally and professionally behind the scenes. Mary doesn't specify if this was an onstage thing or a television thing, but I would imagine this supposedly took place onstage and not during a television gig. How much MSS live show footage [[not television appearances) actually exist?

Did Mary take digs at the other Supremes or did she recount her POV of their actions? I know Diana caught some flack for the things she said about Flo in her book, but was that taking digs at Flo or was it recalling Diana's POV of what was going on and how Diana felt about it? For all the negative things Mary wrote about, she was extremely complimentary to all her singing partners, even when writing about how she viewed Susaye and Scherrie's behavior toward the end.

Let's be real, nobody would have believed a word of Mary's books if it was all rainbows and unicorns because we all know life doesn't work out like that, especially for female singing groups, more often than not.

[floyjoy678]

I don't really think Diana spoke poorly of Flo in her book. I remember her complimenting her a lot but, like Mary's book, she spoke of being very frustrated with Florence as well.