Jean Terrell , Pre-Supremes: What is known??

[Boogiedown]

When Berry heard her in Florida, Jean was already 24 years old. Performing with her brother [the one that was the fighter??]. How long had she been singing?? And what was her sound? Did they sing as a duo?

Do we know what songs? All covers? Of what? Any originals? Anything from Motown??


Also knowing the penchant Motown had for duo-ing .....what happened to the brother?? Never brought into the fold for a project with Jean.....

[reese]

[BayouMotownMan]

They started out as Ernie Terrell & The Heavyweights but as Jean's position continued to grow due to her fine voice they became just Ernie & Jean Terrell.

They cut several sides for Chess and Argo but nothing sold. They mostly worked in the midwest and northeast. They worked sporadically based off of Ernie's celebrity as a prize fighter, they had no hit records.

It was during a booking in Miami when Gordy and Shelly Berger caught Ernie's show, Gordy knew Ernie and thought maybe he might become a Motown artist. But when he heard Jean do Come See About Me that night, asked to meet Jean. It was a small venue, she told me, there was no backstage, so she came out to his table. He complimented her and almost blew it by telling her she sounded like Diana Ross, a singer she really didn't admire. Jean was influenced more by Dionne Warwicke, Dakota Staton and Sarah Vaughn, those kinds of singers. He also complimented Ernie on the show but Ernie could see his interest was in Jean.

When the call came a couple months later he asked for Jean. He proposed that she might be the ideal candidate to replace Ross. Jean was stumped by this so she let Ernie iron out the details and before long Jean was on a plane to LA.

Jean was signed to a solo deal. What seemed like a certainty to replace Ross was now becoming a hesitation between she, Syreeta and a few others. Berry did some test recordings on her and then Mary and Cindy were set up with a meeting. After hearing the tapes and meeting Jean, Mary and Cindy wanted her and Gordy went along with it. He did work closely with Jean for a few weeks but soon turned his attention to focusing on Diana's solo career and launching the Jackson 5.

By September Jean was in the group. No announcement was made until after the GIT special aired in mid November. Meanwhile Jean Terrell cut enough tracks for several lps. The Right On collection includes tracks she cut with the Supremes and solo tracks before she was officially in the group.

[sup_fan]

So if they did swap out Jean for Syreeta like Gordy wanted then would they have issued a Jean solo album? Maybe gone ahead and brought Ernie into Motown and have them be a duo?

[BayouMotownMan]

So if they did swap out Jean for Syreeta like Gordy wanted then would they have issued a Jean solo album? Maybe gone ahead and brought Ernie into Motown and have them be a duo?

I don't think it was thought out that far. Gordy was never interested so much in Ernie, he had enough groups on the label.

I think if Gordy had disposed of Jean, she'd have asked to be released from her contract and would have gotten it. Jean was nobody's fool, she knew she'd be down the list in pecking order to Diana Ross insofar as a solo career was concerned. Flo knew it too and refused Motown's offer.

[luke]

Hasn’t Jean denied she was signed to a solo deal?

[BayouMotownMan]

Still a lot of mystery to that, but when Motown was in Detroit my understanding was each group member was signed individually. That way Motown could use them at their discretion. This would explain why Flo was able to sub for a Marvelettes for a few months. So it would make sense.

But make no mistake, the purpose of signing Jean was to drop her into the Supremes even though Gordy would change his mind from time to time, which he was prone to do when it was a major act. Gaye's What's Going On and Diana's Mahogany movie almost didn't get issued because Gordy kept wavering back and forth.

[blackguy69]

It was my understanding that the girls were signed as a group and starting with Jean they were signed as individuals. As far as for Flo she just subbed in for touring but not recording. I’m guessing as long as they were signed at Motown to whatever capacity, he could use them however he chooses

[Boogiedown]

They started out as Ernie Terrell & The Heavyweights but as Jean's position continued to grow due to her fine voice they became just Ernie & Jean Terrell.

They cut several sides for Chess and Argo but nothing sold. They mostly worked in the midwest and northeast. They worked sporadically based off of Ernie's celebrity as a prize fighter, they had no hit records.

It was during a booking in Miami when Gordy and Shelly Berger caught Ernie's show, Gordy knew Ernie and thought maybe he might become a Motown artist. But when he heard Jean do Come See About Me that night, asked to meet Jean. It was a small venue, she told me, there was no backstage, so she came out to his table. He complimented her and almost blew it by telling her she sounded like Diana Ross, a singer she really didn't admire. Jean was influenced more by Dionne Warwicke, Dakota Staton and Sarah Vaughn, those kinds of singers. He also complimented Ernie on the show but Ernie could see his interest was in Jean.

When the call came a couple months later he asked for Jean. He proposed that she might be the ideal candidate to replace Ross. Jean was stumped by this so she let Ernie iron out the details and before long Jean was on a plane to LA.

Jean was signed to a solo deal. What seemed like a certainty to replace Ross was now becoming a hesitation between she, Syreeta and a few others. Berry did some test recordings on her and then Mary and Cindy were set up with a meeting. After hearing the tapes and meeting Jean, Mary and Cindy wanted her and Gordy went along with it. He did work closely with Jean for a few weeks but soon turned his attention to focusing on Diana's solo career and launching the Jackson 5.

By September Jean was in the group. No announcement was made until after the GIT special aired in mid November. Meanwhile Jean Terrell cut enough tracks for several lps. The Right On collection includes tracks she cut with the Supremes and solo tracks before she was officially in the group.

Good stuff! Nice to hear that Jean had COME SEE ABOUT ME in her set without any intention of auditioning and that really Berry was there to see his buddy, her brother and she coincidentally stood out. It suggests she at least respected their sound, found it worthy of her emulating.
Did Jean perform COME SEE later, as a Supreme, in their shows?? I'd still be curious what else she sang pre-Supremes....any Aretha? What Dionne Warwick song[s]? etc..
That Berry waited two months to reach out to her suggests he wasn't that hot about her though...
wiki claims that some 60 singers were auditioned to replace Smokey in the Miracles, they claim that. My impression is that Motown found it pretty easy to slip in replacements and didn't try all that extensively for that perfect fit. Singers are basically a dime a dozen,with the visual superseding the vocal.

Something about Jean worried Berry . I wonder if Cindy/Mary wanted her as much as is suggested or it was more about them NOT wanting Syreeta.


One other thing. I wonder if they considered changing Jean's name. Something eerie, uncomfortable about a new Motown Terrell so soon after Tammi's passing, I would think.

[BayouMotownMan]

When Berry heard her in Florida, Jean was already 24 years old. Performing with her brother [the one that was the fighter??]. How long had she been singing?? And what was her sound? Did they sing as a duo?

Do we know what songs? All covers? Of what? Any originals? Anything from Motown??


Also knowing the penchant Motown had for duo-ing .....what happened to the brother?? Never brought into the fold for a project with Jean.....

Velma Jean Terrell was born Nov 26, 1946. For whatever reasons history books put her the same age as the original Supremes. Therefore when she was discovered by Berry she had just turned 22

[BayouMotownMan]

Most of the Heavyweights stage act were songs made famous by other people, as Jean told me, "we weren't acclaimed to have our own hits." Jean did sing Come See About Me as part of a Supremes medley the first year or two.

Gordy had no problem with the name Jean Terrell. Tammi Terrell was actually Tammi Montgomery, she changed it to Terrell. That is when the rumors started that she was once married to Ernie, and then the rumor that she was a sister to Jean.

As far as 60 people auditioning for Smokey's position, that seems a bit far fetched. Motown always tried to pull from their own pool of talent for replacements. In Smokey's case, they did have a lot of guys in mind and may have auditioned some, but Damon Harris, the newest member of the Temptations, recommended his friend Bill Griffin for Smokey's position. Similar to the Jean situation, the guys met him, heard him, and then accepted him.

I don't think the months it took for BG to contact Jean had anything to do with any insecurities abut Jean. During this period, Gordy was releasing more product on DRATS in an attempt to get them back to No. 1 so that it would help in launching Ross as a soloist while the group was on top. His top priority was launching Ross, and then the J5. The fate of the Supremes was down his list of priorities. Unfortunaly, a big hit eluded them until SWBT went out. It was while SWBT was scaling the top of the charts that the announcement was made that Ross was leaving. That was the way he wanted, her to leave with the group hot again. He was right about that. When Smokey left the Miracles, the group was cold, had not had a big hit in over two years. So it took a lot more to establish Smokey and the Miracles as seperate entities. In fact, Smokey, aside from the Quiet Storm lp, did not have huge success again until 1979.

I think the difficulty in replacing Ross was lying in getting the right person who had a similar, yet different sound so that the group could have some hits while Ross was establishing herself as a soloist. Face it, if Ross was having major hits while the Supremes faded away, it would have looked very egotistical on Ross's part. Public image then was very different than now where none of this would have mattered. So they needed a few hits on the Supremes before letting the group fade as Ross ascended. This proved to have been the case, even though in the first year the public went more for the new group. Therefore in the second and third year with Jean, promotion was pulled to keep their popularity at bay until Ross's movie came out. Once LSTB came out and was such a smash, the Ross-less Supremes' fate was sealed. Jean Terrell knew this and admitted it to me in my 1978 interview. She said, "By this time [[1972) we had given the company an ultimatum to give us better material and promotion. But Diana was making her comeback and ...." When I asked if she felt Diana Ross's comeback played a part in the declining popularity of the Supremes, she quickly replied, "Oh I think it probably did." Later in the interview she said "apparently I did the right thing [[leaving). Because as it stands now [[1978), there is no Supremes. But I saw it coming."

[jim aka jtigre99]

I had read in a book that after the finale, Gordy changed his mind for some reason and did not want Jean Terrell and opted for Syreeta. He met with Cindy and Mary and told them that but they insisted on Jean because they saw Syreeta more in the vein of Diana who would be a lead singer with visions of a solo career and they had already been through that with Diana. Jean certainly had a good voice[[a mixture of Dionne Warwick and Diana Ross) but she seemed to lack charisma at least on camera. Cindy and Mary had more visual charisma than Jean did. I also read that after Mary fought to have Jean in the group that the two of them did not get along at all and once Cindy was gone Lynda and Jean were together in their beliefs and Mary was pretty much alone in her thoughts. Jean was certainly talented but it seems perhaps Motown should have looked around more. I read Berry saw her , decided on her and that was that but then later changed his mind. It seems from interviews that Jean was quite opinionated and made comments about how much she had to work. Plus, she probably figured Motown was not going to be behind them like they were in the 60's. I saw her respond on Mike Douglas when he said the reviews were that they were just as good as they had always been and Jean interjected some say better. They were fighting a losing battle once they hit the road, no matter if they actually were truly better now.

[BayouMotownMan]

The above is true. Berry's second thoughts on Jean was a personal issue he had with her. Like Martha Reeves and other female vocalists on the label, Jean was not one to be told how to sing. On stage she was demure and concentrated on her vocals. Ross was more of a cheerleader, dancing around getting the audience involved with their show. Jean has said that she had a hard time fitting in because was not a flashy personality like Ross.

Mary and Cindy bucked Gordy on this last minute change mostly because Jean was brought onstage and the press carried all those photos at the Farewell show and the public understood Jean was the new lead singer. For him to suddenly renege on this would have made them all look dysfunctional and disorganized, an image Mary and Cindy worked too hard to have to take on. They insisted on Jean. Mary has said that in the days following the Farewell shows she waited to be summoned to Motown to be told that it was Jean or else, but apparently Gordy also realized how it would have looked to make another change like this. Cindy, normal docile with a positive attitude supported Mary all the way on this.

Many feel that Berry pulled this stunt to give him a reason to wash his hands of the group. Had Mary and Cindy went along with Syreeta it is doubtful that anything would have ended up any differently than what they did.

Jean was not accustomed to the constant workload, the aggressive fan response and she retreated more and more into her own solitude. She grew to resent not so much Mary, but that Mary had all the power in the group while Jean did most of the work. Slowly Jean stopped participating in backing vocals. Jean came from outside Motown, the Terrells were all business type people and didn't believe in working for free. Since Jean was not paid extra for these chores she began to speak out.

Initial reviews of the group were by and far positive. They started getting bad reviews in 1972 when critics picked up on the fact that they were sticking more to a Vegas show which was against the grain of what most popular groups were doing in concert. Jean objected strongly to doing so many Diana Ross hits; as time went on the Jean hits were given less showcase in the show and more Ross hits were featured. This angered her. She was frustrated with Mary for not standing up the Motown more. As she told me in 1978 concerning this, "Mary was very loyal to Motown and if this what she wanted, if that's where her loyalty lied then...what could I say." Finally after the failure of the JW lp and especially the Stevie Wonder single, Jean was done. She was ready to marry and start a family and that was now her top priority, she was done with show biz.

[RanRan79]

Jean looks like a star to me in the clip. I don't think she ever lacked charisma. She was not Diana Ross and there's no two ways about that fact. Charisma does not come across the exact same way for everyone, hence why Dionne Warwick could be so popular and not have much of anything in common with Diana Ross as an entertainer. Jean was hired as Diana's replacement because she checked all of the boxes. Whatever personal issue Gordy may have ended up having with her, or his desire to scapegoat her in order to keep his hands clean in preparation for the demise of the group, is it's separate issue. Gordy saw the "it" factor with Jean in Miami and the rest is history.

[thanxal]

Jean looks like a star to me in the clip. I don't think she ever lacked charisma. She was not Diana Ross and there's no two ways about that fact. Charisma does not come across the exact same way for everyone, hence why Dionne Warwick could be so popular and not have much of anything in common with Diana Ross as an entertainer. Jean was hired as Diana's replacement because she checked all of the boxes. Whatever personal issue Gordy may have ended up having with her, or his desire to scapegoat her in order to keep his hands clean in preparation for the demise of the group, is it's separate issue. Gordy saw the "it" factor with Jean in Miami and the rest is history.

Very well said Ran, very well said.

[marybrewster]

By January 14/15, 1970, Jean and the Supremes had already been in the studio recording tracks, presumably for RIGHT ON. If Berry scrapped Jean for Syreeta, was the plan to keep her [[and her recordings) as a soloist or drop her from Motown altogether?

[jim aka jtigre99]

Don't get me wrong, Jean was certainly talented but she didn't seem to have that certain extra to make you want to watch her. Diana, Mary, Flo and Cindy seemed to have more of that something extra to notice them visually. It is just my personal observation, other people certainly will have different opinions. I have shown non fans some videos so I also take their opinions in consideration when I say that. They note to me that Mary, Cindy and Lynda seem to have more charisma and they would watch them when Jean was singing. Nothing to slight her, just observations. I am happy so many people regard her as having charisma. Up The Ladder was the first record I ever bought.

[sup_fan]

Jean is an extremely talented vocalist and a decent entertainer. the two are not necessarily the same thing. she was coming into the #1 female group in the entire pop music industry. that almost always means you have to be an amazing entertainer because you're going to be all over tv, in huge theaters and arenas, etc. People are anticipating a show that's bigger than life, with energy, excitement, thousands of fans. and when you're entertaining a stage of that size, you need to be bigger than life. partially so that people can physically see you but also so that you live up to that expectation.

Another way to describe this is "incandescent" where the performer literally explodes in radiant light, reaching the furthest darkest corner of the hugest theater or arena and it's a bright as noonday sun

this was 100% NOT jean. I think when fans on here have said she wasn't animated or exciting on stage, i think we're referring to this mega-personality concept. it isn't that she hid behind a speaker in fear, or that she couldn't get two words out or any of that. jean might have done much better in a smaller club setting where it's less about razzle dazzle, pyrotechnics, hoopla, etc and more where a small intimate audience came to hear a musician. maybe more like Diana's Stolen Moments. there isn't not all shrieking and crying fans, everyone singing along to the tunes which are being done just like the record, all sorts of animation but rather a club where people want to hear your interpretation of a song, experience something musically.

[BayouMotownMan]

Don't get me wrong, Jean was certainly talented but she didn't seem to have that certain extra to make you want to watch her. Diana, Mary, Flo and Cindy seemed to have more of that something extra to notice them visually. It is just my personal observation, other people certainly will have different opinions. I have shown non fans some videos so I also take their opinions in consideration when I say that. They note to me that Mary, Cindy and Lynda seem to have more charisma and they would watch them when Jean was singing. Nothing to slight her, just observations. I am happy so many people regard her as having charisma. Up The Ladder was the first record I ever bought.

In the charisma department, Diana Ross wrote the book. Anybody taking her place would come up short. I for one liked Jean's demure approach, she concentrated on her vocals. In her prime I have seen Jean bring the house down in ways Diana Ross could never do. Each lady in the group had her own charm and attitude which is why there is so much divide amongst the fans.

To me the group just wasn't putting out quality material. Their last three singles with Jean, IMHO, were subpar and none were single material. The Jimmy Webb lp was a huge mistake, too much of a departure at a time when the ladies needed something more contemporary. It would have had the same effect if the Jackson 5 had done the JW lp, it was just not what the fans expected of them and it wasn't what was expected of the Supremes. Jean, Mary and Cindy worked their butts off to create a new sound that was different than the DRATS sound. The public approved. Going into MOR [[JW) and funk [[Stevie) within a few months was confusing and the sound was lost.

Thom Bell was approached to produce the group in 1973 and he was a super hot producer at that time. He agreed. Then Jean left, then Lynda so the the project was scrapped. This to me could have turned things around had those ladies hung around.

[sup_fan]

agree Bayou that their recordings just started going every which way.

is there any truth to the rumor that Never Can Say Goodbye was really intended for the Supremes? Clifton Davis also wrote Here Comes The Sunrise and he wrote/cowrote another song i think that they recorded but can't remember what. NCSG would have been a stunning song to include on Touch and an ideal single for the group

it's too bad touch bombed as it seems to have been the end of their working with Frank. i do like the FJ album and, while different of course, it seems to "fit" with the sound they had developed with Frank. totally agree that YWSSL should never have been a single, especially with smokey's odd vocals on the chorus. Would have been so interesting to see how Frank might have continued to evolve the group's work

[Boogiedown]

Most of the Heavyweights stage act were songs made famous by other people, as Jean told me, "we weren't acclaimed to have our own hits." Jean did sing Come See About Me as part of a Supremes medley the first year or two.

Gordy had no problem with the name Jean Terrell. Tammi Terrell was actually Tammi Montgomery, she changed it to Terrell. That is when the rumors started that she was once married to Ernie, and then the rumor that she was a sister to Jean.

As far as 60 people auditioning for Smokey's position, that seems a bit far fetched. Motown always tried to pull from their own pool of talent for replacements. In Smokey's case, they did have a lot of guys in mind and may have auditioned some, but Damon Harris, the newest member of the Temptations, recommended his friend Bill Griffin for Smokey's position. Similar to the Jean situation, the guys met him, heard him, and then accepted him.

I don't think the months it took for BG to contact Jean had anything to do with any insecurities abut Jean. During this period, Gordy was releasing more product on DRATS in an attempt to get them back to No. 1 so that it would help in launching Ross as a soloist while the group was on top. His top priority was launching Ross, and then the J5. The fate of the Supremes was down his list of priorities. Unfortunaly, a big hit eluded them until SWBT went out. It was while SWBT was scaling the top of the charts that the announcement was made that Ross was leaving. That was the way he wanted, her to leave with the group hot again. He was right about that. When Smokey left the Miracles, the group was cold, had not had a big hit in over two years. So it took a lot more to establish Smokey and the Miracles as seperate entities. In fact, Smokey, aside from the Quiet Storm lp, did not have huge success again until 1979.

I think the difficulty in replacing Ross was lying in getting the right person who had a similar, yet different sound so that the group could have some hits while Ross was establishing herself as a soloist. Face it, if Ross was having major hits while the Supremes faded away, it would have looked very egotistical on Ross's part. Public image then was very different than now where none of this would have mattered. So they needed a few hits on the Supremes before letting the group fade as Ross ascended. This proved to have been the case, even though in the first year the public went more for the new group. Therefore in the second and third year with Jean, promotion was pulled to keep their popularity at bay until Ross's movie came out. Once LSTB came out and was such a smash, the Ross-less Supremes' fate was sealed. Jean Terrell knew this and admitted it to me in my 1978 interview. She said, "By this time [[1972) we had given the company an ultimatum to give us better material and promotion. But Diana was making her comeback and ...." When I asked if she felt Diana Ross's comeback played a part in the declining popularity of the Supremes, she quickly replied, "Oh I think it probably did." Later in the interview she said "apparently I did the right thing [[leaving). Because as it stands now [[1978), there is no Supremes. But I saw it coming."

It's curious to me still that a couple of months passed before reaching out to Jean no matter how busy. I'd expected to hear it was because they were auditioning like crazy, and it then became clearer as Jean moved up on the list of candidates,
not, "oh crap, we still gotta replace Diana , how about that Jean girl in Florida we saw some months back ?" lol!

One thing for sure Diana couldn't just leave the Supremes high and dry, that kind of press wouldn't be good to try to launch from. As you are saying they needed a cohesive strategy. Sustain the one big happy family image , even putting out joint albums, especially their coveted Supremes, already somewhat clouded by the Flo/Cindy exchange. They sought for a strong amiable transition to occur.

Berry's second thoughts on Jean was a personal issue he had with her.

Can you elaborate on the personal issue that emerged so late in the game ?

[sup_fan]

i'm assuming the personal issues had to do with taking Berry's direction

Diana has written that she hated how critical he was. hated him coming back with notes and changes. but she kept it inside [[maybe to a fault) and took the notes and followed directions. Berry was also, i'm guessing, smart enough to recognize her talent. there were probably instances where she made recommendations on things with the show or gave insights into a situation. they were so intertwined and had such a clear shared vision

jean, sort of like Martha and Flo, wasn't as pliable. i'm sure when it came to new things, like understanding tv blocking and things that she listened, learned. Not saying she was overly diva. but when it came to her singing, she probably pushed back on the producers. or when singing live, she was not always interested in accepting people's critiques or notes on how she should change or do something different.

[Boogiedown]

That does sound like a flaw. I’d think Jean would welcome any help from Berry she could get, he oughta know best, but at the same time I imagine she was already feeling overwhelmed.

[Boogiedown]

Now I’m imagining Mary saying to Jean, don’t let him push you around like he does Diana, you better nip that stuff in the bud or you’ll be sorry .
hee haw!

[BayouMotownMan]

That does sound like a flaw. I’d think Jean would welcome any help from Berry she could get, he oughta know best, but at the same time I imagine she was already feeling overwhelmed.

Oh no, I have spoken to several Motown artists who would cringe when they looked down from the stage to see Gordy with his notebook. He critiqued, the way you smiled, the way you laughed, things quite personal indeed.

Martha Reeves told me appearing at the Copa was the highlight of her Motown career. She knew Gordy would be at the opening but when she looked down from the stage she saw Gordy with his girlfriend [[guess who), both of whom were pointing things out about her while she was performing and making her very uncomfortable.