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  1. #1
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    Reflections LP - play the producer while we wait for the EE

    we're all eagerly awaiting news on the Reflections EE. while we wait, let's discuss what we like and don't like about the album. what we would have done different.

    So what tracks would you keep? which vault tracks would you have replaced songs with?

    my lineup would be

    Reflections
    I'm gonna make it
    forever came today
    i can't make it alone
    stay in my lonely arms
    bah bah bah

    Then
    am i asking too much
    a little breeze
    can't shake it loose [[from the LC album)
    let the music play
    ode to billie joe

  2. #2
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    another version would be

    Reflections
    I'm gonna make it
    I can't make it alone
    in and out of love
    can't shake it loose
    ode to billie joe

    forever came today
    it's going all the way
    am i asking too much
    misery makes its home
    a little breeze
    bah bah bah

  3. #3
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    The only track I truly dislike is WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW IS LOVE. The girls just sound so lifeless. So I would definitely drop that one.

    I think the rest of the album is fine for the most part. It just doesn't hang together as well as their earlier ones.

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    It's always fun to fiddle and say, "what if..." and "how about..." so I'll play along with this one. Not saying this is the perfect album [I just put it together--haven't lived with it], but I think this might have been been a bit more 1967/1st Quarter of 1968 than what Reflections turned out to be. So, how about this:

    Reflections
    A Little Breeze
    Forever Came Today
    I Can't Make It Alone
    In And Out Of Love
    The Look Of Love

    Heaven Must Have Sent You
    I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
    Sweet Thing
    Stay In My Lonely Arms
    Am I Asking Too Much
    Bah-Bah-Bah

    I just liked that it felt more of that time with less 1966 insertions [and I love some of those DMF/M, circa-1966 cuts that wound up on Reflections] and maybe it might have felt a bit more contemporary for 1968? I'm kinda feeling this tracking listing...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by danman869 View Post
    It's always fun to fiddle and say, "what if..." and "how about..." so I'll play along with this one. Not saying this is the perfect album [I just put it together--haven't lived with it], but I think this might have been been a bit more 1967/1st Quarter of 1968 than what Reflections turned out to be. So, how about this:

    Reflections
    A Little Breeze
    Forever Came Today
    I Can't Make It Alone
    In And Out Of Love
    The Look Of Love

    Heaven Must Have Sent You
    I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
    Sweet Thing
    Stay In My Lonely Arms
    Am I Asking Too Much
    Bah-Bah-Bah

    I just liked that it felt more of that time with less 1966 insertions [and I love some of those DMF/M, circa-1966 cuts that wound up on Reflections] and maybe it might have felt a bit more contemporary for 1968? I'm kinda feeling this tracking listing...
    interesting lineup. So you find Misery too "66?" I'd forgotten about Sweet Thing. If you added Sweet thing, then, misery, stay in my lonely - you have a nice collection of similar songs. Stay is an HDH production but fits in. the others are Smokey. they'd also done Treat Me Nice John Henry. almost like having Smokey handle 1 side of the lp

    you could throw in their rendition of My Guy lolol

  6. #6
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    I did an alt version of Sunshine where there was a Smokey emphasis

    The Composer
    are you sure love
    sweet thing
    he's my sunny boy
    treat me nice
    then

    no matter what sign
    will this be the day
    western union man
    let the music play
    with a child's heart
    shame

  7. #7
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    I chose this mix by imagining a Reflections album released in late January of 1968 that focused on DMF/DMC tracks. I included "Love [[Makes Me Do Foolish Things" because even though it's The Andantes in the background, Diana's vocals are stellar.

    Side A:
    1. Reflections [[no fade out)
    2. I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
    3. Heaven Must Have Sent You
    4. In And Out Of Love
    5. Bah Bah Bah
    6. Then
    Side B:
    7. The Happening
    8. Love [[Makes Me Do Foolish Things)
    9. Stay In My Lonely Arms [[with Mary and Cindy at the end)
    10. Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
    11. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted [['A Go-Go version)
    12. It's Going All The Way To True Love

    I know a lot of folks aren't fans of WBOTBH, but I think the ending with just Mary and Diana is so haunting, and echoes back to the album's title track. I do like "I Can't Make It Alone" and "Ode To Billie Joe" but again, I wanted to focus on The Supremes as a real group as much as possible.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thornton View Post
    I chose this mix by imagining a Reflections album released in late January of 1968 that focused on DMF/DMC tracks. I included "Love [[Makes Me Do Foolish Things" because even though it's The Andantes in the background, Diana's vocals are stellar.

    Side A:
    1. Reflections [[no fade out)
    2. I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
    3. Heaven Must Have Sent You
    4. In And Out Of Love
    5. Bah Bah Bah
    6. Then
    Side B:
    7. The Happening
    8. Love [[Makes Me Do Foolish Things)
    9. Stay In My Lonely Arms [[with Mary and Cindy at the end)
    10. Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
    11. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted [['A Go-Go version)
    12. It's Going All The Way To True Love

    I know a lot of folks aren't fans of WBOTBH, but I think the ending with just Mary and Diana is so haunting, and echoes back to the album's title track. I do like "I Can't Make It Alone" and "Ode To Billie Joe" but again, I wanted to focus on The Supremes as a real group as much as possible.
    This listing gets my vote. Only changes I'd make would be to replace "The Happening", which was already on Greatest Hits, with "I Can't Make It Alone". I'd replace "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things", even though I agree Diana sounds great, with "Ode To Billie Joe", but only if Mary sings it. I get why Motown might have gone with all Diana leads with the first [[non GH) name change album, but the optics may have been better with one Mary lead. If there was no chance of changing leads on the song, then I'd stick with "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things".

    I love the idea of including "Brokenhearted", particularly the extended fade. I would probably end the album with that and put "True Love" right before it. I've always loved the girls' version of "Brokenhearted" on Sunshine, and I love it even more on the A Go Go EE. Diana and Mary had a beautiful blend. Should've heard more of it. [[And yes, that's also my way of saying we should've had more Flo leads.)

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    of course the real mystery question is "what other tracks had HDH been exploring with DRATS at this time?" We know that quite a few of the tracks on the album were from other producers. and some have said that some that are credited to HDH might have been completed by others. Other than A Go Go, the girls' albums had been HDH productions. so Reflections would most likely have followed that concept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    interesting lineup. So you find Misery too "66?" I'd forgotten about Sweet Thing. If you added Sweet thing, then, misery, stay in my lonely - you have a nice collection of similar songs. Stay is an HDH production but fits in. the others are Smokey. they'd also done Treat Me Nice John Henry. almost like having Smokey handle 1 side of the lp

    you could throw in their rendition of My Guy lolol
    No, I've always loved Misery and it was included in what I stated was those songs from '66 that I love...but would cut it from Reflections in order to create a more '67/'68 focused album. I also dumped Billie Jo [a Diana solo] in favor of Look Of Love [a better Diana solo, IMO].

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    while not a massive Smokey fan, i do like a lot of his work with Wanda and the Marvelettes. i find most of his DRATS material to be pretty inferior. although not a huge hit, i love Here I Am Baby. and i think Wanda's vocals are great. But I would also be interested in DR's version. Diana certainly knew how to use her lower register in an amazingly sexy way. so would be interesting to hear what she might have done with the song.

    the DRATS smokey songs are pretty cheesy to me and lack the sophistication and sex appeal of the Marvelette's smokey work

  12. #12
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    well,personally i liked all side 1 ,but side 2 starts to fall apart so ill just remix side 2 and start with
    The Happening
    Let The Music Play
    Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things
    Then
    Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
    What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted

  13. #13
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    sing HDH
    You Keep Me Hangin On
    This Old Heart Of Mine
    Shake Me Wake Me
    Ill Turn To Stone
    I Guess Ill Always Love You
    Mother You Smother You
    side 2
    Love Is An Here and Now Youre Gone
    Love Is in Our Hearts
    Remove This Doubt
    Youre Gone But Always in my heart
    Going Down For the Third Time
    Love Is An Itching In My Heart,...
    Theres No Stopping us now add to Reflections in place of Ode to Billie Jo
    and Put Yourself in my place in place of What the World Needs

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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    sing HDH
    You Keep Me Hangin On
    This Old Heart Of Mine
    Shake Me Wake Me
    Ill Turn To Stone
    I Guess Ill Always Love You
    Mother You Smother You
    side 2
    Love Is An Here and Now Youre Gone
    Love Is in Our Hearts
    Remove This Doubt
    Youre Gone But Always in my heart
    Going Down For the Third Time
    Love Is An Itching In My Heart,...
    Theres No Stopping us now add to Reflections in place of Ode to Billie Jo
    and Put Yourself in my place in place of What the World Needs
    Then what's your line up for A' Go Go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post

    you could throw in their rendition of My Guy lolol
    I missed this one on the first go round. Sup, you trying to get hurt up in here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    while not a massive Smokey fan, i do like a lot of his work with Wanda and the Marvelettes. i find most of his DRATS material to be pretty inferior. although not a huge hit, i love Here I Am Baby. and i think Wanda's vocals are great. But I would also be interested in DR's version. Diana certainly knew how to use her lower register in an amazingly sexy way. so would be interesting to hear what she might have done with the song.

    the DRATS smokey songs are pretty cheesy to me and lack the sophistication and sex appeal of the Marvelette's smokey work
    I am a big Smokey fan, but I have to agree with you on his DRATS stuff. His Flo era stuff I largely enjoy, but the DRATS era lacks the oomph that his Marvelettes productions have. I'm not a big Marvelettes fan. I've been pretty satisfied with having the Deliver the Singles set since it came out. They don't consistently move me until their Smokey era with Wanda as lead, which caused me to seek out those late 60s albums. Smokey worked magic with them. Why that didn't translate to his work with DRATS is a mystery.

    Not that I don't really enjoy some of it. I do love "John Henry", "Sunny Boy", "The Composer", and I absolutely love "Will This Be the Day". But Smokey clearly had a connection to Wanda that he lacked with Diana at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I missed this one on the first go round. Sup, you trying to get hurt up in here?
    LOLOL finally someone picked up on this!!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I am a big Smokey fan, but I have to agree with you on his DRATS stuff. His Flo era stuff I largely enjoy, but the DRATS era lacks the oomph that his Marvelettes productions have. I'm not a big Marvelettes fan. I've been pretty satisfied with having the Deliver the Singles set since it came out. They don't consistently move me until their Smokey era with Wanda as lead, which caused me to seek out those late 60s albums. Smokey worked magic with them. Why that didn't translate to his work with DRATS is a mystery.

    Not that I don't really enjoy some of it. I do love "John Henry", "Sunny Boy", "The Composer", and I absolutely love "Will This Be the Day". But Smokey clearly had a connection to Wanda that he lacked with Diana at this point.
    there are aspects of the Marvelettes i really enjoy. of course many of the singles are just excellent. but their Glady's era albums are not generally ones i play. but the pink album and Sophisticated Soul were excellent. Full Bloom starts to drop off and Return is kinda a mess IMO. but SS and Pink are wonderful albums and as strong [[or nearly) as the Sup albums in the 60s. and in some cases better. i think SS is a stronger album than Sunshine

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    My idea was to combine a go go with Sing HDH, cancel Go Go with all the covers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    My idea was to combine a go go with Sing HDH, cancel Go Go with all the covers.
    So what would you have released for the group in '66 besides IHAS, which was released in February?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    So what would you have released for the group in '66 besides IHAS, which was released in February?
    there were four big pop hits from A Go Go and Sing HDH. i think the idea of merging them into 1 lp is unlikely. if for no other reason than profit. you only needed 2 or so hits to carry and album. and You Can't Hurry Love was their biggest seller to date. so you quickly package it up with a groovy and current title [[A Go Go), make it all dance tunes and almost all very popular well known songs. so major seller

    then you have two more major hits so, once again, package an album up around them

    i'm not saying that all of the content on both is uniformly strong. I've always wondered a bit if Sing HDH wasn't conceptualized and titled in order to toss the guys a bone. Berry has this done in order to appease them and give them some love and recognition, along with the big royalties it would generate. rather than giving them the stock or whatever profit plans they wanted as part of the renegotiation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i'm not saying that all of the content on both is uniformly strong. I've always wondered a bit if Sing HDH wasn't conceptualized and titled in order to toss the guys a bone. Berry has this done in order to appease them and give them some love and recognition, along with the big royalties it would generate. rather than giving them the stock or whatever profit plans they wanted as part of the renegotiation.
    According to the Holland Brothers' recent book, Berry did not like the idea of calling the album, "Sing H-D-H" and thought it would hurt the album's chances as no one would know who they were and, well, basically: isn't that crass naming an album after yourselves? HDH were confident and let it go forward. According to them, when they album didn't do so well [Pop LP #6, R&B LP #1], Berry came back to them and said, "See?" So, from the Holland Brothers' perspective, Berry wasn't throwing them a bone, giving them love and recognition, along with the big royalties it would generate. He was against the naming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danman869 View Post
    According to the Holland Brothers' recent book, Berry did not like the idea of calling the album, "Sing H-D-H" and thought it would hurt the album's chances as no one would know who they were and, well, basically: isn't that crass naming an album after yourselves? HDH were confident and let it go forward. According to them, when they album didn't do so well [Pop LP #6, R&B LP #1], Berry came back to them and said, "See?" So, from the Holland Brothers' perspective, Berry wasn't throwing them a bone, giving them love and recognition, along with the big royalties it would generate. He was against the naming.
    very interesting!!! thanks for sharing this. the album was released in early 67 so that might have preceded the problems between Berry and the guys. or maybe this was another gripe added to the list

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    I like the title ,but I suppose he wanted Sing Motown.
    This is why we need the expanded edition.

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    I think Sing Motown would've made the more profitable title. You Keep Me Hangin' On would've made even more sense. Interesting that Gordy would've looked at Sing HDH as a "failure" because it hit #6. More Hits did the same thing. I like the idea of album titles not based around hits, or any song for that matter, but sometimes it makes sense to capitalize off of the success of a song.

    The WDOLG album was hugely successful and I would attribute that to the presence of three #1 hits as well as the title of what was the ladies' biggest hit for quite a long time. The title More Hits By the Supremes seems so generic. Should've named it after "Stop" or "Back". Would it have made a difference? I personally think so. Of course the Symphony album was titled after the hit, but I think the track list hindered some of it's popularity. A Go Go worked because the whole A Go Go thing was huge, the cover showed the girls in a different light than they were usually seen. It looked like a fun album with the colors. And then there was the track list, full of Motown and other hits of the day. The next album really should've been titled after "Hangin On", but Sing Motown would've made better sense also.

    There has to be a reason that Sing HDH and More Hits didn't go all the way, or super close to the top on the pop charts. It couldn't be lack of interest because both albums contained two #1 hits. Maybe word of mouth was an issue? I'm pretty sure part of More Hits' problem was being released within a week of "Heartaches".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I think Sing Motown would've made the more profitable title. You Keep Me Hangin' On would've made even more sense. Interesting that Gordy would've looked at Sing HDH as a "failure" because it hit #6. More Hits did the same thing. I like the idea of album titles not based around hits, or any song for that matter, but sometimes it makes sense to capitalize off of the success of a song.

    The WDOLG album was hugely successful and I would attribute that to the presence of three #1 hits as well as the title of what was the ladies' biggest hit for quite a long time. The title More Hits By the Supremes seems so generic. Should've named it after "Stop" or "Back". Would it have made a difference? I personally think so. Of course the Symphony album was titled after the hit, but I think the track list hindered some of it's popularity. A Go Go worked because the whole A Go Go thing was huge, the cover showed the girls in a different light than they were usually seen. It looked like a fun album with the colors. And then there was the track list, full of Motown and other hits of the day. The next album really should've been titled after "Hangin On", but Sing Motown would've made better sense also.

    There has to be a reason that Sing HDH and More Hits didn't go all the way, or super close to the top on the pop charts. It couldn't be lack of interest because both albums contained two #1 hits. Maybe word of mouth was an issue? I'm pretty sure part of More Hits' problem was being released within a week of "Heartaches".
    Just my opinion, but a #6 peak on the top 200 LP chart is quite an accomplishment considering how few Motown albums actually reached the top 10 of that chart. I believe the Supremes accounted for more than half of the albums that made it to the top 10 in the sixties. Berry should have celebrated HDH’s peak.

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    How was Sing HDH any different that the Temptation albums Sing Smokey? By '67 I believe HDH had more #1's by that point. And I don't get Sings Motown. Hadn't the group been singing Motown songs on all their regular studio albums, except the specialty albums?

    Regarding Berry Gordy's thoughts on the title of the album, the groups prior studio album A'GoGo had reached #1, so expectations were high that Sing HDH would do the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post

    There has to be a reason that Sing HDH and More Hits didn't go all the way, or super close to the top on the pop charts. It couldn't be lack of interest because both albums contained two #1 hits. Maybe word of mouth was an issue? I'm pretty sure part of More Hits' problem was being released within a week of "Heartaches".
    I suspect that another reason that MORE HITS and HDH might not have been more successful is because there was too much material being released.

    MORE HITS was released in the summer of 1965. Then three months later, here comes AT THE COPA as well as MERRY CHRISTMAS. All would be prime candidates for the Xmas shopping season but many people might have gone for the newest one.

    HDH followed the extremely successful A GO GO by only five months, totally missed the Xmas shopping season, and I believe A GO GO was still on the charts during the same time. Then four months later, here comes the Rodgers and Hart album.

    As most [if not all] of these albums had respectable chart runs, it is remarkable that they sold as well as they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    How was Sing HDH any different that the Temptation albums Sing Smokey? By '67 I believe HDH had more #1's by that point. And I don't get Sings Motown. Hadn't the group been singing Motown songs on all their regular studio albums, except the specialty albums?

    Regarding Berry Gordy's thoughts on the title of the album, the groups prior studio album A'GoGo had reached #1, so expectations were high that Sing HDH would do the same.
    Berry probably figured that having Smokey's name in an album title would give it additional sales potential since he was well-known. By comparison, HDH was only known by industry insiders.

    Myself, I don't like the title THE SUPREMES SING MOTOWN. But in some markets, it was most likely given that title because of the reason I cited above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
    Just my opinion, but a #6 peak on the top 200 LP chart is quite an accomplishment considering how few Motown albums actually reached the top 10 of that chart. I believe the Supremes accounted for more than half of the albums that made it to the top 10 in the sixties. Berry should have celebrated HDH’s peak.
    Absolutely. But I think the issue was relative. After the success of A Go Go, Gordy probably wanted to follow it up with an album that returned the group to the top. I could see him viewing #6 as a disappointment, in the same way he may have viewed "Nothing But Heartaches" stalling at #11 as a disappointment. Number 11 was quite an achievement itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    How was Sing HDH any different that the Temptation albums Sing Smokey? By '67 I believe HDH had more #1's by that point. And I don't get Sings Motown. Hadn't the group been singing Motown songs on all their regular studio albums, except the specialty albums?

    Regarding Berry Gordy's thoughts on the title of the album, the groups prior studio album A'GoGo had reached #1, so expectations were high that Sing HDH would do the same.
    Good point, which leads me back to my opinion that naming the album You Keep Me Hangin' On made the most sense.

    I thought about the Sing Smokey album when I was writing out my thoughts before. I think the main difference is that Smokey himself already had a public presence among the buying public due to the popularity of the Miracles. Plus Smokey was Gordy's shadow. Giving him an album with his name on it and photo was probably just one of many things Gordy would've done for Smokey, being so close to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    I suspect that another reason that MORE HITS and HDH might not have been more successful is because there was too much material being released.

    MORE HITS was released in the summer of 1965. Then three months later, here comes AT THE COPA as well as MERRY CHRISTMAS. All would be prime candidates for the Xmas shopping season but many people might have gone for the newest one.

    HDH followed the extremely successful A GO GO by only five months, totally missed the Xmas shopping season, and I believe A GO GO was still on the charts during the same time. Then four months later, here comes the Rodgers and Hart album.

    As most [if not all] of these albums had respectable chart runs, it is remarkable that they sold as well as they did.
    All great points. Makes a lot of sense.

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    Given that in the late 50s and early 60s Ella Fitzgerald was having hit albums with her composter song books, I liked the fact that Motown put out Supremes sing Holland Dozier Holland. The company's way of saying " Hey we're carrying on and contributing to the Great American songbook and HDH are right up there with the legends who've preceded them".

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    The problem with naming the album “Sing HDH” is that it limited the choice of songs that could be included. Berry probably hesitated about the album title realizing that the Supremes and HDH vaulted tracks, at this time, were lacking in quantity and quality. As we see from the A’ Go-Go Expanded Edition there were better songs in the vault that could have been released during this time frame.

    I think holding the album back for a couple of months to include The Happening and the full version of All I Know About You in place of Heatwave and Same Old Song, at the very least, would have helped the album, even if called “Sing HDH”. The releases of R&H and GH could have each been delayed about a month, most likely achieving the same chart success.

    Industry insiders and Supremes fans already knew that A’ Go-Go was essentially a “Sing HDH” and “Sing Motown”, combined. At the time I liked only half the songs. The other half I felt were dated and sub-par. HDH should have stroked their egos with a better collection of new songs.

    Since this thread was initially a discussion of the “Reflections” album, I should add that after my disappointment with “Sing HDH” I loved “Reflections”. I liked that Side 1 was all Supremes and Motown originals and that covers were on Side 2. I think the album was better conceived than some of their other releases. Overall I still enjoy listening to it.
    Last edited by johnjeb; 08-22-2021 at 06:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
    Just my opinion, but a #6 peak on the top 200 LP chart is quite an accomplishment considering how few Motown albums actually reached the top 10 of that chart. I believe the Supremes accounted for more than half of the albums that made it to the top 10 in the sixties. Berry should have celebrated HDH’s peak.
    true but this is the Supremes we're talking about and until Sgt Pepper and Pet Sounds, most albums everywhere were just random collections of filler. most of the huge albums were Broadway soundtracks and movie musicals.

    Just like they said they're only release #1 singles on the supremes and top ten on the rest of the artists, i'd guess that any lp ranking outside of hte top 5 would be a "flop"

    Where and A Go Go were just HUGE and the albums sat on the charts forever. More Hits and HDH were very big but definitely on the charts for less time

    Where - 89 weeks
    More hits - 37 weeks
    Symphony - 37 weeks
    A Go Go - 52 weeks
    HDH - 29 weeks

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