another potential reason for 70s Sup lack of success

[SatansBlues]

I would say one of the reasons that no one ever mentions is Motown's big push of the Jackson 5. Starting in the early 60's it seemed that Motown had a practice of really pushing one group or artist at a time, until their hits ran out. The Jackson had a run of several #1 records in a row and played to the youth market and I would say that market at the time simply bought more 45s that any other demographic. Motown simply put their resources behind the Jackson 5 while the Supremes took a back seat to them.

[RanRan79]

I would say one of the reasons that no one ever mentions is Motown's big push of the Jackson 5. Starting in the early 60's it seemed that Motown had a practice of really pushing one group or artist at a time, until their hits ran out. The Jackson had a run of several #1 records in a row and played to the youth market and I would say that market at the time simply bought more 45s that any other demographic. Motown simply put their resources behind the Jackson 5 while the Supremes took a back seat to them.

Agreed to a point. The J5 factor in, but again, if Motown was hellbent on the Jean Supremes staying on top, there would have been a push to do something groundbreaking when "Touch" failed to make it. Switching them to Smokey just doesn't seem to be the big idea that it might have seemed at the time. And I'm on record with my love of the FJ album. I just don't think Smokey was the right pairing for something truly noteworthy.

One issue that I think the group faced was where they were vs the J5. The Supremes were teenagers when half the J5 was born. These new Supremes came across more sophisticated than youthful, and I think Jean was a big part of that. Diana always had this "childlike" exuberance to her onstage persona that made even DRATS, with all of it's glitz and glamour, and the fact that Cindy was old as dirt [[joke), still give off an air of youth. Jean was all woman. She was built like a woman, she carried herself with extreme regalness. Her facial expressions, her movements while performing: she was a Queen.

The trick would've been pairing this new, more adult Supremes with material that would transcend ages. They needed music that was going to capture the J5 crowd as well as the Roberta Flack crowd. The Jean Supremes probably hung on as long as they did because they held a certain appeal for the adult audience, but dropped off because they lacked the appeal to the youth crowd. Motown could've done more to bridge this gap. Frank may have been tapped out. Smokey really wasn't the answer.

[SatansBlues]

Agreed to a point. The J5 factor in, but again, if Motown was hellbent on the Jean Supremes staying on top, there would have been a push to do something groundbreaking when "Touch" failed to make it. Switching them to Smokey just doesn't seem to be the big idea that it might have seemed at the time. And I'm on record with my love of the FJ album. I just don't think Smokey was the right pairing for something truly noteworthy.

One issue that I think the group faced was where they were vs the J5. The Supremes were teenagers when half the J5 was born. These new Supremes came across more sophisticated than youthful, and I think Jean was a big part of that. Diana always had this "childlike" exuberance to her onstage persona that made even DRATS, with all of it's glitz and glamour, and the fact that Cindy was old as dirt [[joke), still give off an air of youth. Jean was all woman. She was built like a woman, she carried herself with extreme regalness. Her facial expressions, her movements while performing: she was a Queen.

The trick would've been pairing this new, more adult Supremes with material that would transcend ages. They needed music that was going to capture the J5 crowd as well as the Roberta Flack crowd. The Jean Supremes probably hung on as long as they did because they held a certain appeal for the adult audience, but dropped off because they lacked the appeal to the youth crowd. Motown could've done more to bridge this gap. Frank may have been tapped out. Smokey really wasn't the answer.

Another factor that folks either ignore or gloss over is the conversation Berry Gordy had with Mary Wilson on January 14, 1970 after the groups final performance with Diana Ross and Jean Terrell was introduced. This is when Berry informed Mary that he wanted to replace Jean with Syreeta Wright and Mary refused to go along with the plan, after just having intro Jean to the public that very night. Berry informed Mary that he was washing his hands of the group. I think in between moving the company to Los Angeles, launching the solo career of Diana Ross and shifting his attention to making movies Berry didn't have the time for another argument, he was the boss after all. People downplay that power move and look what happened to the group after 2-2 1/2 years.

[RanRan79]

Another factor that folks either ignore or gloss over is the conversation Berry Gordy had with Mary Wilson on January 14, 1970 after the groups final performance with Diana Ross and Jean Terrell was introduced. This is when Berry informed Mary that he wanted to replace Jean with Syreeta Wright and Mary refused to go along with the plan, after just having intro Jean to the public that very night. Berry informed Mary that he was washing his hands of the group. I think in between moving the company to Los Angeles, launching the solo career of Diana Ross and shifting his attention to making movies Berry didn't have the time for another argument, he was the boss after all. People downplay that power move and look what happened to the group after 2-2 1/2 years.

Well, some people question whether this happened at all. Others, like myself, or maybe I'm the only one, believe that the conversation did happen, but Gordy was not serious with his suggestion. It was a power play for sure, but it was Gordy's way of getting off the hook. He was the boss. If he wanted to replace Jean with Minnie Mouse right up until the moment the new Supremes went onstage for their debut on Sullivan, he could've done it and there wouldn't have been a damn thing any Supreme, Mary included, could do about it. Gordy was no idiot. Anything about Jean that was less than Supreme, he would've seen it and heard it in the six months prior to January 14th. If Syreeta was truly worthy of being a Supreme, she had been with Motown since 1967 and he never would have had to look for a Diana replacement since she was already with the company. Furthermore, a ton of time and attention had been put into Jean as a Supreme. No way does Gordy nix it all at the last minute. That call was him knowing that Mary would be expecting him to give the Supremes his valuable attention when he had known for awhile that once Diana was gone, he would give the group over to others and put his weight behind Diana. So as soon as Mary cried "Berry, you aren't taking care of us the way you used to", Gordy could reply "You're right Mary. But had you gone with my plan to replace Jean with Syreeta, you could've had me. You didn't, so now you don't."

Hands washed, guilt free, everything is Mary's fault.

[Ollie9]

Well, some people question whether this happened at all. Others, like myself, or maybe I'm the only one, believe that the conversation did happen, but Gordy was not serious with his suggestion. It was a power play for sure, but it was Gordy's way of getting off the hook. He was the boss. If he wanted to replace Jean with Minnie Mouse right up until the moment the new Supremes went onstage for their debut on Sullivan, he could've done it and there wouldn't have been a damn thing any Supreme, Mary included, could do about it. Gordy was no idiot. Anything about Jean that was less than Supreme, he would've seen it and heard it in the six months prior to January 14th. If Syreeta was truly worthy of being a Supreme, she had been with Motown since 1967 and he never would have had to look for a Diana replacement since she was already with the company. Furthermore, a ton of time and attention had been put into Jean as a Supreme. No way does Gordy nix it all at the last minute. That call was him knowing that Mary would be expecting him to give the Supremes his valuable attention when he had known for awhile that once Diana was gone, he would give the group over to others and put his weight behind Diana. So as soon as Mary cried "Berry, you aren't taking care of us the way you used to", Gordy could reply "You're right Mary. But had you gone with my plan to replace Jean with Syreeta, you could've had me. You didn't, so now you don't."

Hands washed, guilt free, everything is Mary's fault.

If switching to Syreeta might as you say have been a bluff, what would BG have done if Mary had said yes, brilliant idea Berry, i’m all for that.
It is possible that he and Jean had a fall out just prior to the final frontier concert. Remember ‘control’ was his middle name and Jean was to a certain degree her own woman.

[RanRan79]

If switching to Syreeta might as you say have been a bluff, what would BG have done if Mary had said yes, brilliant idea Berry, i’m all for that.
It is possible that he and Jean had a fall out just prior to the final frontier concert. Remember ‘control’ was his middle name and Jean was to a certain degree her own woman.

He would have slapped his forehead, and in his best Homer Simpson impression before there was ever a Homer Simpson, he would have said "Doh!"

All jokes aside, Gordy was a man of the street. He always knew his adversary. Just like when he and Flo used to go at it, he knew what buttons to push. He could probably predict Flo's behavior before she did or said anything in response to something he did or said. I believe he knew Mary the same way. The truth is that Gordy replacing Jean at the last minute would've been unprofessional. Jean had been introduced in the media and at the Farewell show as Diana's replacement. Mary was a consummate professional and Gordy had to know she'd have a problem with what was sure to be a messy situation. This wasn't replacing Florence, this was replacing Diana. He knew how Mary would react.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the only scenario that makes sense. Jean had been recording with the Supremes, rehearsing with the Supremes. Despite a certain fraction of the fandom that believes Motown didn't give a single shit about the Supremes without Diana, the truth is that the label devoted time and attention to the group and was invested in their continued success at the beginning. So Mary goes along with Gordy's plan. I guess it wouldn't take much to have Syreeta step in inside the studio on potential recordings, but what about the stage show? Was Syreeta a dancer? Was she a quick study? Could she get the stage routines down quickly? Would Syreeta have even been interested in the job? I know it's easy to believe that every female singer between Aretha Franklin and Janis Joplin would have killed to be lead singer of the Supremes, the truth is that's just not true. So Syreeta declines the offer? Now what?

There's no way Gordy runs his business that way. I'll never believe it.

[Ollie9]

He would have slapped his forehead, and in his best Homer Simpson impression before there was ever a Homer Simpson, he would have said "Doh!"

All jokes aside, Gordy was a man of the street. He always knew his adversary. Just like when he and Flo used to go at it, he knew what buttons to push. He could probably predict Flo's behavior before she did or said anything in response to something he did or said. I believe he knew Mary the same way. The truth is that Gordy replacing Jean at the last minute would've been unprofessional. Jean had been introduced in the media and at the Farewell show as Diana's replacement. Mary was a consummate professional and Gordy had to know she'd have a problem with what was sure to be a messy situation. This wasn't replacing Florence, this was replacing Diana. He knew how Mary would react.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the only scenario that makes sense. Jean had been recording with the Supremes, rehearsing with the Supremes. Despite a certain fraction of the fandom that believes Motown didn't give a single shit about the Supremes without Diana, the truth is that the label devoted time and attention to the group and was invested in their continued success at the beginning. So Mary goes along with Gordy's plan. I guess it wouldn't take much to have Syreeta step in inside the studio on potential recordings, but what about the stage show? Was Syreeta a dancer? Was she a quick study? Could she get the stage routines down quickly? Would Syreeta have even been interested in the job? I know it's easy to believe that every female singer between Aretha Franklin and Janis Joplin would have killed to be lead singer of the Supremes, the truth is that's just not true. So Syreeta declines the offer? Now what?

There's no way Gordy runs his business that way. I'll never believe it.

Its certainly food for thought and a real possibility. The only discrepancy in the theory is that after Mary telling BG ‘no way’, surely at some point she would have spoken to Syreeta to confirm that BG had indeed asked her to take over as lead singer of her group.
If he was bluffing, all is revealed.
I wonder if the novelty of having a white lead singer singer might have worked. The British singer Polly Brown had a voice that was extremely similar in style and tone to Diana’s. She recorded her own version of the the “Theme From Mahogany”.

[SatansBlues]

Well, some people question whether this happened at all. Others, like myself, or maybe I'm the only one, believe that the conversation did happen, but Gordy was not serious with his suggestion. It was a power play for sure, but it was Gordy's way of getting off the hook. He was the boss. If he wanted to replace Jean with Minnie Mouse right up until the moment the new Supremes went onstage for their debut on Sullivan, he could've done it and there wouldn't have been a damn thing any Supreme, Mary included, could do about it. Gordy was no idiot. Anything about Jean that was less than Supreme, he would've seen it and heard it in the six months prior to January 14th. If Syreeta was truly worthy of being a Supreme, she had been with Motown since 1967 and he never would have had to look for a Diana replacement since she was already with the company. Furthermore, a ton of time and attention had been put into Jean as a Supreme. No way does Gordy nix it all at the last minute. That call was him knowing that Mary would be expecting him to give the Supremes his valuable attention when he had known for awhile that once Diana was gone, he would give the group over to others and put his weight behind Diana. So as soon as Mary cried "Berry, you aren't taking care of us the way you used to", Gordy could reply "You're right Mary. But had you gone with my plan to replace Jean with Syreeta, you could've had me. You didn't, so now you don't."

Hands washed, guilt free, everything is Mary's fault.

I know it's an inconvenient fact to your hypothesis but I don't know anyone who disputes Mary's account. Not to mention that Berry Gordy never disputed this story. So there's that. I will take someone's word who was there and a part of the conversation over "some people's questions". How absurd.

[sup_fan]

I know it's an inconvenient fact to your hypothesis but I don't know anyone who disputes Mary's account. Not to mention that Berry Gordy never disputed this story. So there's that. I will take someone's word who was there and a part of the conversation over "some people's questions". How absurd.

Cindy also mentioned that Berry wanted Syreeta and following the farewell there was a big blow up about this. But she said she and Mary stood their ground and that was that.

So i don't know that anyone is completely questioning the overall topic. I do have a bit of question about the specific phone call at 5:00 am or something. and more so about Mary's apparent shock at the discussion. My theory is that there HAD to be at least SOME discussion prior to the morning of Jan 15, 1970. There had to have been some problems in the recording studio, arguments about what songs would be in the stage show, disagreements about this or that.

but this is also just about hypothesizing. None of us where there for ANY of these specific actions or activities. at best a very few of us were in attendance at a show or two, or maybe chatted with the girls backstage. So it's absolutely just speculation for sake of dialog.

And let's be very clear that much of Mary's book is definitely "from her perspective" and might be very much open to debate.

[RanRan79]

I know it's an inconvenient fact to your hypothesis but I don't know anyone who disputes Mary's account. Not to mention that Berry Gordy never disputed this story. So there's that. I will take someone's word who was there and a part of the conversation over "some people's questions". How absurd.

Welcome to the forum. If you have the time to search, and don't mind driving yourself crazy, there are indeed opinions here in Soulful Detroit that either insinuate or downright question whether Mary made the story up.

[SatansBlues]

Welcome to the forum. If you have the time to search, and don't mind driving yourself crazy, there are indeed opinions here in Soulful Detroit that either insinuate or downright question whether Mary made the story up.

I've been around for a while. I'm well aware of how things can go sideways in Supreme threads. I don't take these posts too seriously.

[sup_fan]

Agreed to a point. The J5 factor in, but again, if Motown was hellbent on the Jean Supremes staying on top, there would have been a push to do something groundbreaking when "Touch" failed to make it. Switching them to Smokey just doesn't seem to be the big idea that it might have seemed at the time. And I'm on record with my love of the FJ album. I just don't think Smokey was the right pairing for something truly noteworthy.

One issue that I think the group faced was where they were vs the J5. The Supremes were teenagers when half the J5 was born. These new Supremes came across more sophisticated than youthful, and I think Jean was a big part of that. Diana always had this "childlike" exuberance to her onstage persona that made even DRATS, with all of it's glitz and glamour, and the fact that Cindy was old as dirt [[joke), still give off an air of youth. Jean was all woman. She was built like a woman, she carried herself with extreme regalness. Her facial expressions, her movements while performing: she was a Queen.

The trick would've been pairing this new, more adult Supremes with material that would transcend ages. They needed music that was going to capture the J5 crowd as well as the Roberta Flack crowd. The Jean Supremes probably hung on as long as they did because they held a certain appeal for the adult audience, but dropped off because they lacked the appeal to the youth crowd. Motown could've done more to bridge this gap. Frank may have been tapped out. Smokey really wasn't the answer.

i agree. what i interpret that you're saying here is that the Supremes needed to grow up. and i'm saying that in a good way. look at the maturation that Diana had between 1970 and 73. she'd had a child, gotten married, stared in Lady. and that growth showed in her recordings

the supremes needed to grow up with their fans. they were not the bubble gun or teeny bopper crowd like they might have been in 65. college age should have been more of their target now. and to relate with that age group, the sups needed to be more real and less toney.

[RanRan79]

i agree. what i interpret that you're saying here is that the Supremes needed to grow up. and i'm saying that in a good way. look at the maturation that Diana had between 1970 and 73. she'd had a child, gotten married, stared in Lady. and that growth showed in her recordings

the supremes needed to grow up with their fans. they were not the bubble gun or teeny bopper crowd like they might have been in 65. college age should have been more of their target now. and to relate with that age group, the sups needed to be more real and less toney.

I wouldn't say they needed to grow up. I think they were too mature for the general buying public, which was certainly the J5 crowd and the college aged folks. They definitely needed to be more real and more hip. Yes, that's the problem with the new Supremes after "Nathan Jones", they lacked a certain hipness. The Supremes name came with a built in fandom. They came with a built in ability to garner attention because of what the 60s Supremes had done. Half the battle was already won for the new grouping. Had they been able to hook up with a producer who could give them songs that made them as hip as anybody else having hits at the time, the group could've forged along as major stars for a time longer. The Staple Singers didn't look hip, but their songs were all the rage with everybody. The Supremes needed a huge hit that resonated with the public and an album that went along with it. The album couldn't be a bunch of random tracks either, there had to be some kind of cohesive theme. Albums were the "it" thing. The Supremes never really got in on it, despite those Jean albums [[minus JW) being very good to great, IMO.

[sup_fan]

I wouldn't say they needed to grow up. I think they were too mature for the general buying public, which was certainly the J5 crowd and the college aged folks. They definitely needed to be more real and more hip. Yes, that's the problem with the new Supremes after "Nathan Jones", they lacked a certain hipness. The Supremes name came with a built in fandom. They came with a built in ability to garner attention because of what the 60s Supremes had done. Half the battle was already won for the new grouping. Had they been able to hook up with a producer who could give them songs that made them as hip as anybody else having hits at the time, the group could've forged along as major stars for a time longer. The Staple Singers didn't look hip, but their songs were all the rage with everybody. The Supremes needed a huge hit that resonated with the public and an album that went along with it. The album couldn't be a bunch of random tracks either, there had to be some kind of cohesive theme. Albums were the "it" thing. The Supremes never really got in on it, despite those Jean albums [[minus JW) being very good to great, IMO.

that might be poor word choice on my part. what i meant was their earlier fans were getting older. and the Sups should have evolved their approach to things into more of a college/young adult target. like Stevie did

another problem with the Supremes is that the whole brand had become so heavily focused on image and their style. and i don't think they had to abandon that. but they needed to evolve from it some.

I'd speculate that if:

1. motown had properly titled the single STONE Love
2. the NW album was redone with better cover art/tweaks to the song lineup maybe too
3. skip the duets
4. had some "big event" scheduled for this time like a tv special or something really big

then SL would have gone to #1 and the Stone Love lp would have charted very well too

then in early 71 the show is significantly updated and refreshed, cutting much of the showtunes and fluff. Do another follow up single like Thank Him or Together to further push lp sales

[blackguy69]

Most of the show tunes were basically cut when Jean came on but I would have 3 separate shows. One for the club audience and one for the kids.

that might be poor word choice on my part. what i meant was their earlier fans were getting older. and the Sups should have evolved their approach to things into more of a college/young adult target. like Stevie did

another problem with the Supremes is that the whole brand had become so heavily focused on image and their style. and i don't think they had to abandon that. but they needed to evolve from it some.

I'd speculate that if:

1. motown had properly titled the single STONE Love
2. the NW album was redone with better cover art/tweaks to the song lineup maybe too
3. skip the duets
4. had some "big event" scheduled for this time like a tv special or something really big

then SL would have gone to #1 and the Stone Love lp would have charted very well too

then in early 71 the show is significantly updated and refreshed, cutting much of the showtunes and fluff. Do another follow up single like Thank Him or Together to further push lp sales

[RanRan79]

I'd speculate that if:

1. motown had properly titled the single STONE Love
2. the NW album was redone with better cover art/tweaks to the song lineup maybe too
3. skip the duets
4. had some "big event" scheduled for this time like a tv special or something really big

I think these would all have resulted in better success. If only we could put you in a time machine and send you back to have some words with the Motown brass.