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    "The Supremes" After Mary

    Expanding on the 1977 "Farewell Concert" thread, I have a few questions:

    One would assume that engagements were booked well in advance; weeks, if not months. So were there dates on the Supremes calendar after June 12, 1977, when Mary departed? Wasn't the thought that Scherrie and Susaye would assume all future gigs? I know there was the "South Africa tour" that Mary thought Scherrie and Susaye would take, but didn't. How could they, "The Supremes", just say NO? And there HAD to have been other dates/concerts/venues scheduled. So what happened to those? Were they cancelled? Last thing: when Mary left, did she leave Scherrie and Susaye with the gowns? Or how did she end up with them?

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    In SUPREME FAITH, Mary wrote that yes, engagement are booked months in advance but she left the group thinking that Motown and the William Morris Agency would handle things.

    But Mary's agent informed her that some dates in South America had not been canceled and the "new" Supremes weren't doing them and that if they weren't fulfilled, she would be sued. I'm assuming this is because the dates were booked through Mary's company, Supremes, Inc.?

    In any event, against Mary's wishes, Pedro asked Scherrie to "come back" and do them. Both she and Susaye refused, upset about the short notice. Needing the money, Mary decided to do the dates. First she asked Lynda Lawrence but she wanted too much money. In the end, she asked Cindy and found Debbie Sharpe to complete the dates.

    Note: All of the above is what Mary wrote in SUPREME FAITH. Only those involved know the complete story.

    Re gowns, it seems that Mary kept them as many are shown in her SUPREME GLAMOUR book. Scherrie and Susaye probably wanted a completely fresh start for the new group.

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    Personally Mary B, I think when Mary left the group, everybody understood that was the end. Scherrie and Susaye might have been hopeful for something, but Mary never intended for the group to carry on without her. As protective of the group as Mary had always been, going back to the early days, there's no way she was leaving it to a girl who had only been a Supreme for about two and a half years, and another for only about a year, and then yet a third new one. I don't believe it. I won't believe it.

    You say South Africa, but wasn't it South America? I can't remember for sure. You might be right. But I think either the tour issue was either horrible mismanagement or was a Mary Wilson tour that was suspiciously booked as a Supremes tour. After all, at that point how does Mary, with no single, no album, fresh from the group, get a solo tour? She does if she [[ie, her reps) tell the promoters it's the Supremes, which of course requires Mary to hire "Supremes" in order to pass it off.

    Regarding the gowns, regardless of the scenario, I'm of the assumption that the gowns would be owned by Supremes Inc, which only Mary was an owner of. So essentially anything Scherrie and Susaye wore that was purchased by Supremes Inc was on loan and not owned and when the group ceased to exist, the gowns were returned to Mary. Again, I'm assuming here, but it makes sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    In SUPREME FAITH, Mary wrote that yes, engagement are booked months in advance but she left the group thinking that Motown and the William Morris Agency would handle things.

    But Mary's agent informed her that some dates in South America had not been canceled and the "new" Supremes weren't doing them and that if they weren't fulfilled, she would be sued. I'm assuming this is because the dates were booked through Mary's company, Supremes, Inc.?

    In any event, against Mary's wishes, Pedro asked Scherrie to "come back" and do them. Both she and Susaye refused, upset about the short notice. Needing the money, Mary decided to do the dates. First she asked Lynda Lawrence but she wanted too much money. In the end, she asked Cindy and found Debbie Sharpe to complete the dates.

    Note: All of the above is what Mary wrote in SUPREME FAITH. Only those involved know the complete story.

    Re gowns, it seems that Mary kept them as many are shown in her SUPREME GLAMOUR book. Scherrie and Susaye probably wanted a completely fresh start for the new group.
    Thanks Reese. So per Mary, it was a mismanagement issue.

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    i have my opinions on the South America tour in 77. yes tours are often arranged months in advance, but not always.

    When mary left the Supremes in June, I'm not aware of any CONCRETE plans for her solo career. Sure mary and pedro had said all sorts of things in the news and on tv during the early months of 77. but that by no means does that signify that those were actual, real plans. Motown never had any interest in Mary as a singer. they didn't care much about doing anything with her in the 60s, other than her 1 solo in the show and a small handful of leads in the studio, they rarely did anything with her. there was no interest in her leading the group in 70 or 74. there was no support or promotion of the later recordings. so why would they then invest in her as a soloist?

    so on June 13, 1977 Mary finds herself no longer a member of the group. they had no future bookings and very low current records sales. so little to no royalties. in her book i don't recall her outlining specific aspects of her new solo deal in 1977. yes she mentions what the eventual deal was in 78 or so. but when she left the group, it appears that there was nothing really in development w motown.

    meanwhile she had purchased that huge mansion in Hancock Park, had a staff of employees. And limited immediate income. so how could they get some quick money? find some tour dates wherever they could. a hastily prepared tour was thrown together and off mary went. that they triggered the lawsuit as she was no longer a member of the group and yet was touring as the Supremes. mary then responded with her suit.

    had she really been in the final stages of negotiating her solo act and deal, this all would not have happened.

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    It’s hard to say what was going on since it all kinda happened quite quickly. I highly doubt that the South American tour was planned or booked after Mary left seeing that she was very pregnant. My question is how many shows were still on the calendar when Mary left.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i have my opinions on the South America tour in 77. yes tours are often arranged months in advance, but not always.

    When mary left the Supremes in June, I'm not aware of any CONCRETE plans for her solo career. Sure mary and pedro had said all sorts of things in the news and on tv during the early months of 77. but that by no means does that signify that those were actual, real plans. Motown never had any interest in Mary as a singer. they didn't care much about doing anything with her in the 60s, other than her 1 solo in the show and a small handful of leads in the studio, they rarely did anything with her. there was no interest in her leading the group in 70 or 74. there was no support or promotion of the later recordings. so why would they then invest in her as a soloist?

    so on June 13, 1977 Mary finds herself no longer a member of the group. they had no future bookings and very low current records sales. so little to no royalties. in her book i don't recall her outlining specific aspects of her new solo deal in 1977. yes she mentions what the eventual deal was in 78 or so. but when she left the group, it appears that there was nothing really in development w motown.

    meanwhile she had purchased that huge mansion in Hancock Park, had a staff of employees. And limited immediate income. so how could they get some quick money? find some tour dates wherever they could. a hastily prepared tour was thrown together and off mary went. that they triggered the lawsuit as she was no longer a member of the group and yet was touring as the Supremes. mary then responded with her suit.

    had she really been in the final stages of negotiating her solo act and deal, this all would not have happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Personally Mary B, I think when Mary left the group, everybody understood that was the end. Scherrie and Susaye might have been hopeful for something, but Mary never intended for the group to carry on without her. As protective of the group as Mary had always been, going back to the early days, there's no way she was leaving it to a girl who had only been a Supreme for about two and a half years, and another for only about a year, and then yet a third new one. I don't believe it. I won't believe it.

    You say South Africa, but wasn't it South America? I can't remember for sure. You might be right. But I think either the tour issue was either horrible mismanagement or was a Mary Wilson tour that was suspiciously booked as a Supremes tour. After all, at that point how does Mary, with no single, no album, fresh from the group, get a solo tour? She does if she [[ie, her reps) tell the promoters it's the Supremes, which of course requires Mary to hire "Supremes" in order to pass it off.

    Regarding the gowns, regardless of the scenario, I'm of the assumption that the gowns would be owned by Supremes Inc, which only Mary was an owner of. So essentially anything Scherrie and Susaye wore that was purchased by Supremes Inc was on loan and not owned and when the group ceased to exist, the gowns were returned to Mary. Again, I'm assuming here, but it makes sense to me.
    Ran, I absolutely agree with you. I think the Supremes carrying on without Mary was a lot of wishful thinking. They would have needed all new gowns. New management. New band? I assume The Supremes Inc. owned all of the musical charts for the musicians. Would Scherrie and Susaye had enough clout [[and money?) to build the group back up from the bottom?

    LOL, and yes, I meant South America. Thank you for correcting me.

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    so on June 13, 1977 Mary finds herself no longer a member of the group. they had no future bookings and very low current records sales. so little to no royalties. in her book i don't recall her outlining specific aspects of her new solo deal in 1977. yes she mentions what the eventual deal was in 78 or so. but when she left the group, it appears that there was nothing really in development w motown.

    And didn't this solo contact come only after Mary threatened with a lawsuit? So they dangled a carrot and she bit it.

    It would be interesting to know what dates were on the books after June 12, 1977. How many were actually cancelled? If Mary and The Supremes Inc. were as broke as Mary eludes, why wouldn't she have tried to finish out those dates? What was the rush for a "farewell" when there was no next move?

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    Just another random thought: it shows how invested Motown was in the Supremes in 1970 that when Diana left, they had already contacted Jean, JMC had already started recording, and had photos taken together. Jean was then introduced to the public.

    When MSS said "farewell", there was hope that Joyce would join, but other than "bye bye, see you soon" there was nothing else concrete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    It’s hard to say what was going on since it all kinda happened quite quickly. I highly doubt that the South American tour was planned or booked after Mary left seeing that she was very pregnant. My question is how many shows were still on the calendar when Mary left.
    completely possible. i'm not sure at all when this was booked.

    Mary was managing all of the Supremes' business out of the Supremes Inc entity she says she established. she also mentioned in her book that in late 76 they were considering switching their bookings back to William Morris.

    Motown certainly didn't seem to be heavily involved [[but again that's my interpretation) so i don't think they would have booked S. America. Mary's company would have been handling the bookings and so she/pedro should have known what was going on or what the terms of the booking contracts were. clauses can always be included that spell out what termination policies there are, if the act is unable to fulfill the gig, etc. whether or not they had these in for the SA stuff, we don't know.

    if motown WAS actually handling these bookings then they would have handled covering the dates - either sending down the re-constituted Supremes with S and S, cancelling the dates or sending an alternate act. none of those happened

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Just another random thought: it shows how invested Motown was in the Supremes in 1970 that when Diana left, they had already contacted Jean, JMC had already started recording, and had photos taken together. Jean was then introduced to the public.

    When MSS said "farewell", there was hope that Joyce would join, but other than "bye bye, see you soon" there was nothing else concrete.
    there have been some fans sharing that once mary announced her exit, she anticipated a big solo offering from motown. when that didn't happen, the word is that mary wanted back into the supremes. but S and S said "only if Pedro is out of the picture"

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there have been some fans sharing that once mary announced her exit, she anticipated a big solo offering from motown. when that didn't happen, the word is that mary wanted back into the supremes. but S and S said "only if Pedro is out of the picture"
    I remember fans saying that as far back as the old Yahoo Groups days and I think it might have even been confirmed. But I've never been able to find that confirmation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there have been some fans sharing that once mary announced her exit, she anticipated a big solo offering from motown. when that didn't happen, the word is that mary wanted back into the supremes. but S and S said "only if Pedro is out of the picture"
    While I don't dispute what you heard, on what four legs could S and S stand on, not letting Mary back into the group she created?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    While I don't dispute what you heard, on what four legs could S and S stand on, not letting Mary back into the group she created?
    valid question. maybe it was a "if you AND pedro come back, the two of us are out of here." and motown certainly didn't like pedro either, based on everyone's accounts of the group history. so maybe that was also motown saying that, although that could open the question of why motown didn't boot pedro to the curb before.

    and to be honest, motown wasn't probably going to do much for the S and S led supremes either. sure motown might have been relieved that M and P were out of the picture but seriously doubt the new sups would have had any support either.

    some fans have said it was Diana the instructed berry to retire the group. some have said that mary helped coax diana to do this. some have said motown just wanted the group retired. regardless of the origination, there is some merit that if no original members were part of the group, probably best to just move on

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    some fans have said it was Diana the instructed berry to retire the group. some have said that mary helped coax diana to do this. some have said motown just wanted the group retired. regardless of the origination, there is some merit that if no original members were part of the group, probably best to just move on
    In the book THE WOMEN OF MOTOWN, Scherrie says she "heard it through the grapevine" that Diana wanted the group retired if there weren't going to be any originals members in it. Whether this was done with coaxing from Mary, only Diana knows.

    But in SUPREME FAITH, Mary did say that she was "relieved" and her "prayers had been answered" when she learned that Scherrie and Susaye were going on as a duo and that there would be no more Supremes.

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    I guess this is the part of business I'll never understand. Mary and Scherrie and Susaye were under contract to Motown. So how exactly did Mary turn management over to Pedro? Wouldn't he have had to been a Motown employee? And if the Supremes were an equal "group", wouldn't S and S have equal say in who they hired as such? I know Mary created Supremes Inc. Wouod this essentially make S and S Mary's employees? But if Mary didn't have authority to offer them contracts, how could they be her employees?

    Similarly, Martha has always said the Vandellas [[not sure about Roz and Nettie) were her employees? How could Martha have the authority to hire and fire if ultimately she wasn't the boss?

    So confusing.

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    I remember the old yahoo group. It was more implied than confirmed. I do remember someone asking Susaye about rejoining for the SA tour and she said along the lines that they want her back but without Pedro.
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    While I don't dispute what you heard, on what four legs could S and S stand on, not letting Mary back into the group she created?

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    If I’m correct they were signed to both Motown and Supremes inc. in the case of the vandellas, Roz has said more than once that she was signed to Motown and not just Martha’s employee. In order for them to record, they would have to be signed to the label.
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I guess this is the part of business I'll never understand. Mary and Scherrie and Susaye were under contract to Motown. So how exactly did Mary turn management over to Pedro? Wouldn't he have had to been a Motown employee? And if the Supremes were an equal "group", wouldn't S and S have equal say in who they hired as such? I know Mary created Supremes Inc. Wouod this essentially make S and S Mary's employees? But if Mary didn't have authority to offer them contracts, how could they be her employees?

    Similarly, Martha has always said the Vandellas [[not sure about Roz and Nettie) were her employees? How could Martha have the authority to hire and fire if ultimately she wasn't the boss?

    So confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I guess this is the part of business I'll never understand. Mary and Scherrie and Susaye were under contract to Motown. So how exactly did Mary turn management over to Pedro? Wouldn't he have had to been a Motown employee?
    If I'm not mistaken, a record company shouldn't be acting as its artists' managers and/or agents as well. That is a conflict on interest. I think that might have been one of the factors of Mary's 1977 lawsuit against Motown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I guess this is the part of business I'll never understand. Mary and Scherrie and Susaye were under contract to Motown. So how exactly did Mary turn management over to Pedro? Wouldn't he have had to been a Motown employee? And if the Supremes were an equal "group", wouldn't S and S have equal say in who they hired as such? I know Mary created Supremes Inc. Wouod this essentially make S and S Mary's employees? But if Mary didn't have authority to offer them contracts, how could they be her employees?

    Similarly, Martha has always said the Vandellas [[not sure about Roz and Nettie) were her employees? How could Martha have the authority to hire and fire if ultimately she wasn't the boss?

    So confusing.
    i believe all of the women were contractually signed to motown but then the management of the group came down to Supremes Inc. For instance, what songs would be in the stage show, the gowns, tours and tour logistics, etc.

    this doesn't mean that Sup Inc handled the releases of records though. that would still be motown.

    maybe think of how Diana set things up. even at RCA. wasn't it RTC management that managed her tours and all? but RCA still released the audio product.

    So S and S would have been legally signed as singers via motown and the as members of the Supremes. but their roles in the ongoing strategic and managerial activities of the group would not necessarily have been as equal 1/3. For instance i remember asking Susaye once [[either here or on FB) about the gowns. She commented that she loved those blue fringe ones from Udo live. i asked her if the girls all decided on the outfits and [[if i remember right - and Miss Greene if you read this, please accept my apologies for misquoting xoxoxox) she stated mary selected the gowns.

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    there were power struggles a plenty - Mary battling Motown..Pedro's tensions with the ladies Marys difficult relationship with the robust Roshkind..also cocaine use was rampant on several sides..a recipe for for disaster..
    Last edited by nomis; 06-22-2021 at 07:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    there were power struggles a plenty - Mary battling Motown..Pedro's tensions with the ladies Marys difficult relationship with the robust Roshkind..also cocaine use was rampant on several sides..a recipe for for disaster..
    Mary did admit to using cocaine. I wonder if Pedro was into that crap too. But, that was the drug of choice back then, however very damaging to the body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Mary did admit to using cocaine. I wonder if Pedro was into that crap too. But, that was the drug of choice back then, however very damaging to the body.
    I have heard Pedro liked cocaine so did many executives at Motown and some recording artists like you say,Detmotown guy it was just very much part of the "scene" in this time period and heavily used right across the entertainment industry..what happened to Marvin Gaye is a stark reminder of its dangers..or whitney houston and list goes on

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    Pedro's violent rages,destroying furniture in their home,his psychosis and paranoia that Mary describes in "Supreme Faith" are all the hallmarks of a coke addiction..pawning her beloved diamond ring...how he would disapear for days on end..all classic signs

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    I have heard Pedro liked cocaine so did many executives at Motown and some recording artists like you say,Detmotown guy it was just very much part of the "scene" in this time period and heavily used right across the entertainment industry..what happened to Marvin Gaye is a stark reminder of its dangers..or whitney houston and list goes on
    Yes and people believed it was actually safer than alcohol lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    Pedro's violent rages,destroying furniture in their home,his psychosis and paranoia that Mary describes in "Supreme Faith" are all the hallmarks of a coke addiction..pawning her beloved diamond ring...how he would disapear for days on end..all classic signs
    Mary was really a wonderful person. One punch from that idiot and I would have tossed his behind out the window. One can always wonder what would have happened to the Sups if he wasn't around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Mary was really a wonderful person. One punch from that idiot and I would have tossed his behind out the window. One can always wonder what would have happened to the Sups if he wasn't around.
    he was a master manipulator who say dollar signs from the start..his lies about his family..Mary lived in fear for many years walking on egg shells trying to placate his demon temper at the same time looking after her children and maintaining her career..lots of similariites to Ike & Tina's relationship abuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    he was a master manipulator who say dollar signs from the start..his lies about his family..Mary lived in fear for many years walking on egg shells trying to placate his demon temper at the same time looking after her children and maintaining her career..lots of similariites to Ike & Tina's relationship abuse
    Agree. I suppose we could discuss this forever. Mary just seemed to have that "keep the peace personality". Even HDH said she was the "glue" "peacekeeper" in the group.
    I can't imagine the stress he put on the group members. I recently saw photos of him and his family, so in the end I hope all is well in the family unit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i believe all of the women were contractually signed to motown but then the management of the group came down to Supremes Inc. For instance, what songs would be in the stage show, the gowns, tours and tour logistics, etc.

    this doesn't mean that Sup Inc handled the releases of records though. that would still be motown.

    maybe think of how Diana set things up. even at RCA. wasn't it RTC management that managed her tours and all? but RCA still released the audio product.

    So S and S would have been legally signed as singers via motown and the as members of the Supremes. but their roles in the ongoing strategic and managerial activities of the group would not necessarily have been as equal 1/3. For instance i remember asking Susaye once [[either here or on FB) about the gowns. She commented that she loved those blue fringe ones from Udo live. i asked her if the girls all decided on the outfits and [[if i remember right - and Miss Greene if you read this, please accept my apologies for misquoting xoxoxox) she stated mary selected the gowns.
    By her own accord, as membership started to change, Mary took a much bigger role in ownership, knowing she would forever be the only constant. I'd think that Jean, Mary, and Cindy had a 33/33/33 voice into the group; by the time it was Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye, it was probably more like 60/30/10.

    Your story about Susaye liking the blue icicles, and Mary picking out the gowns further solidifies that Mary was "stuck" into the Supremes image of the 1960's. We can talk gowns for 100 years, but by the time Susaye joined, very few, if any, Diana-era gowns should have been utilized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    If I’m correct they were signed to both Motown and Supremes inc. in the case of the vandellas, Roz has said more than once that she was signed to Motown and not just Martha’s employee. In order for them to record, they would have to be signed to the label.
    That's one thing I have never liked about Martha; how flippant she has been about the Vandellas. I've heard her say there have been "hundreds" of Vandellas.....which to me is minimizing the roles of Roz, Nettie, and Betty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, a record company shouldn't be acting as its artists' managers and/or agents as well. That is a conflict on interest. I think that might have been one of the factors of Mary's 1977 lawsuit against Motown.
    I believe you're totally right, and that makes perfect sense. I'm sure it was that way from the DMF[[B) era through the Jean/Lynda years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    By her own accord, as membership started to change, Mary took a much bigger role in ownership, knowing she would forever be the only constant. I'd think that Jean, Mary, and Cindy had a 33/33/33 voice into the group; by the time it was Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye, it was probably more like 60/30/10.

    Your story about Susaye liking the blue icicles, and Mary picking out the gowns further solidifies that Mary was "stuck" into the Supremes image of the 1960's. We can talk gowns for 100 years, but by the time Susaye joined, very few, if any, Diana-era gowns should have been utilized.
    i think the assessment of MJC being 33/33/33 isn't accurate. part of what i've heard over the years is that Mary definitely was working to position herself as the group leader during the 70s. However, jean was doing nearly all of the leads in the studio. M and C were still very often not on the records and so that's even more lopsided. And onstage and on tv, Jean was also doing nearly all of the singing AND she was often singing live. whlie M and C were lip syncing. So Jean's POV could have been that she's doing 80% of the work yet not receiving money that justified that AND she wasn't leading the group's decisions and strategies. also it's Jean's voice that really was a primary part of the sound being successful. I'll be the first to acknowledge the importance of M, and F and C and L, etc but the fact does remain the much of the "secret sauce" to a hit record is the lead singer. seems that was a bit part of the problem between J and M.

    as for Mary's abilities to properly manage the group's direction, yeah that certainly something that could be debated. I have my opinions on things but they're based off of general info and speculation. so i don't want to position them as being more than that. but my thoughts are that Mary's best career path for a big-time successful pop music career would be as part of a group like the Supremes. her voice isn't one typically associated as lead on pop tunes. her sound and talent worked beautifully as 1 piece of an ensemble.

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    How can jean ever be in a position of power when she was salaried and not receiving royalties. She came into this knowing where she stood. Wasn’t much for her to do in the situation. As for Mary and Cindy ‘s contributions, out of all of the 70’s released material at that time, M and C didn’t sing in 5 tracks and as far as the unreleased material, we have either Jean adding her voice to someone else’s track or they were unfinished tracks. so we don’t know if M and C were gonna add vocals.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i think the assessment of MJC being 33/33/33 isn't accurate. part of what i've heard over the years is that Mary definitely was working to position herself as the group leader during the 70s. However, jean was doing nearly all of the leads in the studio. M and C were still very often not on the records and so that's even more lopsided. And onstage and on tv, Jean was also doing nearly all of the singing AND she was often singing live. whlie M and C were lip syncing. So Jean's POV could have been that she's doing 80% of the work yet not receiving money that justified that AND she wasn't leading the group's decisions and strategies. also it's Jean's voice that really was a primary part of the sound being successful. I'll be the first to acknowledge the importance of M, and F and C and L, etc but the fact does remain the much of the "secret sauce" to a hit record is the lead singer. seems that was a bit part of the problem between J and M.

    as for Mary's abilities to properly manage the group's direction, yeah that certainly something that could be debated. I have my opinions on things but they're based off of general info and speculation. so i don't want to position them as being more than that. but my thoughts are that Mary's best career path for a big-time successful pop music career would be as part of a group like the Supremes. her voice isn't one typically associated as lead on pop tunes. her sound and talent worked beautifully as 1 piece of an ensemble.

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    there are more than 5 tracks in question, regarding who is singing what background material. and the group paid for all sessions, released and unreleased. One Right On, there are clearly additional singers on Then We Can Try it Again, Wait a min, i got hurt, just take a closer look. and it's possible that vocals were added to songs like Ladder to simply give them a fuller sound

    and then the question comes up as to how much they were used for the layered vocals. like on Touch, This is the story, loving country and other tunes that have multiple backing vocal lines - how much of each song is M and C and how much are others?

    not to mention every track on Floy Joy except for Precious has added vocals. so on the title track and Auto Sun, what's done by whom? on Floy Joy do M and C and J do the harmonies and the A's just round things out? but when you listen to the song live, MJC sing it in unison. they didn't sing the harmony live [[in the couple of versions we've been able to uncover of it live).

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    How can jean ever be in a position of power when she was salaried and not receiving royalties. She came into this knowing where she stood. Wasn’t much for her to do in the situation. As for Mary and Cindy ‘s contributions, out of all of the 70’s released material at that time, M and C didn’t sing in 5 tracks and as far as the unreleased material, we have either Jean adding her voice to someone else’s track or they were unfinished tracks. so we don’t know if M and C were gonna add vocals.
    and that is a valid point - if you are of the mindset that seniority is the trumping factor. But to assume that someone is doing a majority of the hardest work and has 0 input into the strategic direction of that work is asking a lot. At least that's what i've heard of as Jean's POV.

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    My 33/33/33 analogy was more to demonstrate that they still were very much a group, equally giving input and making decisions.

    In "Supreme Faith", Mary talks about MODEL OF THE YEAR, and how she asked Jean and Lynda what they wanted to perform. So she clearly was still asking for input through this incarnation. Once they left, she said "forget the F-ing routine" and took matters into her own hands.

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    If we’re just talking about the released material that neither Mary or Cindy did not record and I did make a mistake, it’s 4 tracks off the Right On album, one off of New Ways and one off of Touch. I did ask George this question a while back. All other released tracks, Mary and Cindy are there some with or with the sweetening of the the Andantes/Blackberries/ and or Billie and Brenda of the Undisputed Truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there are more than 5 tracks in question, regarding who is singing what background material. and the group paid for all sessions, released and unreleased. One Right On, there are clearly additional singers on Then We Can Try it Again, Wait a min, i got hurt, just take a closer look. and it's possible that vocals were added to songs like Ladder to simply give them a fuller sound

    and then the question comes up as to how much they were used for the layered vocals. like on Touch, This is the story, loving country and other tunes that have multiple backing vocal lines - how much of each song is M and C and how much are others?

    not to mention every track on Floy Joy except for Precious has added vocals. so on the title track and Auto Sun, what's done by whom? on Floy Joy do M and C and J do the harmonies and the A's just round things out? but when you listen to the song live, MJC sing it in unison. they didn't sing the harmony live [[in the couple of versions we've been able to uncover of it live).

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    If we’re just talking about the released material that neither Mary or Cindy did not record and I did make a mistake, it’s 4 tracks off the Right On album, one off of New Ways and one off of Touch. I did ask George this question a while back. All other released tracks, Mary and Cindy are there some with or with the sweetening of the the Andantes/Blackberries/ and or Billie and Brenda of the Undisputed Truth.
    well and i've even wondered if on a track like maybe Then We Can Try or Wait A min are M and C on it alongwith the other vocalists? or just other vocalist?

    and on something like This Is The Story, are all of the parts MJC? or are some others?

    it gets so challenging!

    on the Floy Joy album, it sort of seems like you can tell based on channel. if you listen to the stereo lp, you'll hear M and C on one headphone and the A's on the other. at least from what i could tell

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there have been some fans sharing that once mary announced her exit, she anticipated a big solo offering from motown. when that didn't happen, the word is that mary wanted back into the supremes. but S and S said "only if Pedro is out of the picture"
    Interesting scenario....Didn't S/S say that Motown was offering all sorts of support and the opportunity to do their own writing. I'd like to know who said that. 1) I can't imagine Motown offering any support for another group of Sups. 2) I don't blame S/S to ban Pedro. 3) Did Mary want back in after the Farwell Concert? 4) Good time for M/S/S to leave for another label and call it quits w/Motown? But Mary still believed there was value in the Sups name.

    Did Mary, Diana and Berry meet together to dissolve the Supremes?

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    Most of the articles I have around this time elude that Scherrie and Susaye are moving on, with the third member being Karen Knox. Karen from my understanding was a protege of Vivian Greene's. I don't have anything mentioning Joyce of Dawn.

    Several sources also claim that Pedro was going to start managing Marvin Gaye, and he was putting together a package tour for Marvin and Mary entitled "The Lady and the Gentleman".

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    If I’m correct Then We can try again was supposed to be a Yvonne Fair single so I’m assuming Jean just put her vocals on instrumental and it sounds like it just the Blackberries. This is the Story is Mary, Cindy plus I’m guessing also the Blackberries.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    well and i've even wondered if on a track like maybe Then We Can Try or Wait A min are M and C on it alongwith the other vocalists? or just other vocalist?

    and on something like This Is The Story, are all of the parts MJC? or are some others?

    it gets so challenging!

    on the Floy Joy album, it sort of seems like you can tell based on channel. if you listen to the stereo lp, you'll hear M and C on one headphone and the A's on the other. at least from what i could tell

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    If I’m correct Then We can try again was supposed to be a Yvonne Fair single so I’m assuming Jean just put her vocals on instrumental and it sounds like it just the Blackberries. This is the Story is Mary, Cindy plus I’m guessing also the Blackberries.
    i love reading things like that in the EE booklets. how a song was intended for XXXXX and then moved. so interesting!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Interesting scenario....Didn't S/S say that Motown was offering all sorts of support and the opportunity to do their own writing. I'd like to know who said that. 1) I can't imagine Motown offering any support for another group of Sups. 2) I don't blame S/S to ban Pedro. 3) Did Mary want back in after the Farwell Concert? 4) Good time for M/S/S to leave for another label and call it quits w/Motown? But Mary still believed there was value in the Sups name.

    Did Mary, Diana and Berry meet together to dissolve the Supremes?
    i have no idea if they formally met. obviously by fall of 77 Mary wasn't too cozy with Berry, given the lawsuits. it's possible that once they settled that and mary was working on the solo contract that she had some discussions on the matter. but that's just a guess

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    Interesting scenario....Didn't S/S say that Motown was offering all sorts of support and the opportunity to do their own writing. I'd like to know who said that.

    I have an interview where Susaye says with Mary's departure, she and Scherrie were going to be given more creative control with the group. She states that she and Scherrie would be writing their own music, and they, "with a third girl", will be taking the Supremes in a new direction. They'll still have the sequins and the glamour, but it will be "the NEW Supremes". She goes on to further mention that it IS possible that if they start recording soon, it will be done with JUST Susaye and Scherrie, as a duo.

    I of course am paraphrasing, but I do find it interesting that there was already talk that the end result would be more "Partners" than "Supremes 1978".

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    To add to the above post, Susaye also says that their management would come from Motown. Or that Motown would have more involvement with the group. Now I don't remember: did Scherrie or Susaye ever vocalize that they felt MSS weren't being properly promoted? I just find it hard to believe if they had been having issue, that they would continue to put all of their eggs in one basket, and believe that suddenly Motown would look out for them. They knew how much Mary struggled; did they think they would be much different?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    To add to the above post, Susaye also says that their management would come from Motown. Or that Motown would have more involvement with the group. Now I don't remember: did Scherrie or Susaye ever vocalize that they felt MSS weren't being properly promoted? I just find it hard to believe if they had been having issue, that they would continue to put all of their eggs in one basket, and believe that suddenly Motown would look out for them. They knew how much Mary struggled; did they think they would be much different?
    Yes, Mary wrote in Supreme Faith that Scherrie & Susaye told her that Motown was going to give them more creative control and promotion. Mary responded that when Diana left that Motown didn't provide that and with her gone, there would be less and couldn't they see that was not to be believed, then said that her words did not penetrate to them. It was just strange that Motown had an entity like the Supremes, who certainly still had name value-a name Motown used lawsuits to protect and here they had 3 terrific singers and yet rather than try to do anything, they felt they were "sequined out" according to DePasse & co. Jean & Jean & Mary sang on a number of top 20 hits, Scherrie sang on their last top 40 just before they disbanded. Even if Motown didn't like Mary or Pedro, you would think they would still work with them to help continue the legacy and cash flow , rather than just "washing their hands" of the group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Yes, Mary wrote in Supreme Faith that Scherrie & Susaye told her that Motown was going to give them more creative control and promotion. Mary responded that when Diana left that Motown didn't provide that and with her gone, there would be less and couldn't they see that was not to be believed, then said that her words did not penetrate to them. It was just strange that Motown had an entity like the Supremes, who certainly still had name value-a name Motown used lawsuits to protect and here they had 3 terrific singers and yet rather than try to do anything, they felt they were "sequined out" according to DePasse & co. Jean & Jean & Mary sang on a number of top 20 hits, Scherrie sang on their last top 40 just before they disbanded. Even if Motown didn't like Mary or Pedro, you would think they would still work with them to help continue the legacy and cash flow , rather than just "washing their hands" of the group.
    There definitely was value in the name Supremes, even in 1977.

    It's interesting to think what might have happened if Mary stayed, or had come back in 1978, as some have suggested. Would Mary have gone along with the direction S & S wanted to take? Would Motown have been more involved? Would the end result have been like "Partners" or like "Mary Wilson"? Did they even need to record at this time? Maybe the focus could have been revamping the group and touring, rather than recording. So much focus on the success of the group seems to stem around if they had a new record, or new single. What was wrong with becoming a touring act?

    So many questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    There definitely was value in the name Supremes, even in 1977.

    It's interesting to think what might have happened if Mary stayed, or had come back in 1978, as some have suggested. Would Mary have gone along with the direction S & S wanted to take? Would Motown have been more involved? Would the end result have been like "Partners" or like "Mary Wilson"? Did they even need to record at this time? Maybe the focus could have been revamping the group and touring, rather than recording. So much focus on the success of the group seems to stem around if they had a new record, or new single. What was wrong with becoming a touring act?

    So many questions.
    I have an interview with Susaye that was reproduced for one of the fan club newsletters. I gather the interview took place before Mary decided to leave. Susaye spoke a bit about how the next album would contain some of their own compositions and it was a direction that Mary was happy to go in as well.

    Re being a touring act, I don't think there's a problem with that as long as you have a consistent audience willing to come out and support you. It doesn't seem as if the mid-late 70s Supremes had a big enough audience for that, at least not in the US. That's why they were playing gigs in smaller clubs, venues that Mary complained about in her second book.

    They weren't like the Shirelles, who basically joined the oldies circuit in the early 70s and have stayed there ever since making a good living. By comparison, the Supremes still had a contemporary presence and wanted to be seen as such. But to do that, they needed hits and had to bring in others besides the die-hards.

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    the supremes were a very expensive act. motown struggled a lot in the 70s with profitability, much due to the diversification into other things like movies. and the move to LA. all of these things helped to reduce the potency of motown on the charts. there were new things happening in music and motown was not long the "hot" label. many of the older acts were struggling and was harder to take new acts to being consistent hit makers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i have no idea if they formally met. obviously by fall of 77 Mary wasn't too cozy with Berry, given the lawsuits. it's possible that once they settled that and mary was working on the solo contract that she had some discussions on the matter. but that's just a guess
    Thanks for the reply.

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