DRATS & Temps duets - did they REALLY help the girls?

**sup_fan** · 03-21-2021, 01:38 PM

people talk about the big impact of the pairing of the Temptations and Diana Ross And The Supremes. Obviously their first duet single did amazingly well as did the parent album. and most people really feel TCB was a rousing success

Otis Williams mentioned that the pairing made sense as it would help broaden audiences. this is much more a long term strategic idea - the Temps were more popular with black audiences and the duets would help bring that segment back to the Sups. meanwhile the Sups had more popularity with whites and that would be good for the Temps exposure

But at this same time, the Temps ALSO expanded their image with the psychedelic soul sound and look. This also appealed to the younger white college kids. So the Temps seemed to have [[either knowingly or not) timed this perfectly and took advantage of it

meanwhile the Supremes did not. their style and sound through 68 and 69 did not evolve or change.

**TYK1986** · 03-22-2021, 06:38 AM

It definitely helped them to keep in the public's eye because the first duet album and TCB did very well. Love child was released just before the duet albums and gave the girls a different look and sound. The song went to number 1 whereas the previous few songs didn't chart very well, compared to their HDH heyday years. Love Child did, according to wiki, very well on the charts [[pop and R&B) and sales almost immediately. I wonder if the new look/sound of Love Child and then back into glamour dresses on TCB might have confused the audience about their thoughts on the Supremes?

**TheMotownManiac** · 03-22-2021, 07:11 AM

5%

Originally Posted by sup_fan

people talk about the big impact of the pairing of the Temptations and Diana Ross And The Supremes. Obviously their first duet single did amazingly well as did the parent album. and most people really feel TCB was a rousing success

Otis Williams mentioned that the pairing made sense as it would help broaden audiences. this is much more a long term strategic idea - the Temps were more popular with black audiences and the duets would help bring that segment back to the Sups. meanwhile the Sups had more popularity with whites and that would be good for the Temps exposure

But at this same time, the Temps ALSO expanded their image with the psychedelic soul sound and look. This also appealed to the younger white college kids. So the Temps seemed to have [[either knowingly or not) timed this perfectly and took advantage of it

meanwhile the Supremes did not. their style and sound through 68 and 69 did not evolve or change.

this statement has always bugged me. Black audiences were always exposed to the Supremes and embraced them quite strongly especially in the beginning. The Supremes were everywhere, no one of any race needed a TV special with the Temptations to tell them what the Supremes were about. On the other Hand, the tempts had much less exposure to white audiences and I do believe they’ve been up there in a great deal from the duets and TV specials a lot more than the supremes did. A whole lot more.

I don’t think that Norman Whitfield was crafting cloud nine and runaway child running wild with the slightest idea that the temps are going to be doing duets with the Supremes, he has never indicated such, none of that music was featured on TCB, and in my opinion there’s a big chasm between the two styles.

I don’t think that the Supremes appearing on TV or an album cover in the love child costume fooled anyone into thinking it was a new look for the Supremes and they were now Hiper and less glam, because they just appeared on at Sullivan earlier that evening in gowns and singing, of all things, a medley from funny girl. That’s fairly square. Yes, he did indicate that the Supremes had a hot new sound and we’re willing to sacrifice their glamorous image to plug the record, but they were all over the place in fancy gowns so I don’t think anyone took it any more seriously than thinking the Supremes and four tops we’re going to look country western from then on because of the album art for return of the magnificent seven. It was just a temporary look for the song love child, ross is wearing a T-shirt that says love child, it was fairly obvious it was a promotional look, but I still believe the Supremes got credit for Appearing in rags at least briefly. I don’t think it confused anybody at all, anymore than any Halloween costume might.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2021, 01:45 PM

Aside from Otis' "official" statement about why the two groups were packaged together, has there been any other information from the folks actually involved in the planning process? I can't recall.

What I do know is that the Supremes did not need the Tempts to appeal to Black audiences. Had the Supremes had a TV special all to themselves, it would've pulled in roughly the same amount of audience because they were just that popular with everyone. The Tempts' audience was "blacker" than the Supremes' audience, but they weren't half stepping in popularity with white audiences either.

I suspect that pairing the two groups probably originated in 1966 when the two groups were on Mike Douglas. That culminated in the Sullivan Show appearance, where Gordy and Co probably wanted to see if there was performance chemistry. Once it was determined that the Supremes and Tempts together could be entertainment gold, the TV special talks started and then the album production. The entire thing boiled down to how much money could Gordy make by packaging his two biggest acts.

On a side note tied to the subject, TCB was definitely intended as a Diana Ross vehicle, but it had to be disguised and the only way to do that was throw in a bunch of guys, because had the show just been Diana, Mary and Cindy, Diana's light would've been blinding. While Mary had a ton of personality and oozed star quality, Cindy...well, as sweet as she was, Cindy comes across as the "boring" Supreme. I see more personality in her when Jean came in, and later Scherrie, but during DRATS, even when she talked...she just never seemed to light up the scene, which is opposite of Florence, who even during interviews, it was easy to see her personality and why people would gravitate to her, as they did Diana and Mary. The Tempts being on the show allows for more distribution of camera time without forcing Mary and Cindy into spotlight roles that the latter in particular was ill equipped to handle.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2021, 01:49 PM

Pairing the Supremes and Tempts did help keep the group relevant. Without it, DRATS only high points post 1967 would've been "Love Child", maybe "Shame", and then "Someday". I just don't understand why there was no consistent urgency to keep DRATS on top the way it was to get them "Love Child". Had Gordy issued another decree that only #1 songs would be released on DRATS as he did with the Flo Supremes, we never would've gotten those flop singles. I don't even think we would've gotten "Shame".

**Ollie9** · 03-22-2021, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

Aside from Otis' "official" statement about why the two groups were packaged together, has there been any other information from the folks actually involved in the planning process? I can't recall.

What I do know is that the Supremes did not need the Tempts to appeal to Black audiences. Had the Supremes had a TV special all to themselves, it would've pulled in roughly the same amount of audience because they were just that popular with everyone. The Tempts' audience was "blacker" than the Supremes' audience, but they weren't half stepping in popularity with white audiences either.

I suspect that pairing the two groups probably originated in 1966 when the two groups were on Mike Douglas. That culminated in the Sullivan Show appearance, where Gordy and Co probably wanted to see if there was performance chemistry. Once it was determined that the Supremes and Tempts together could be entertainment gold, the TV special talks started and then the album production. The entire thing boiled down to how much money could Gordy make by packaging his two biggest acts.

On a side note tied to the subject, TCB was definitely intended as a Diana Ross vehicle, but it had to be disguised and the only way to do that was throw in a bunch of guys, because had the show just been Diana, Mary and Cindy, Diana's light would've been blinding. While Mary had a ton of personality and oozed star quality, Cindy...well, as sweet as she was, Cindy comes across as the "boring" Supreme. I see more personality in her when Jean came in, and later Scherrie, but during DRATS, even when she talked...she just never seemed to light up the scene, which is opposite of Florence, who even during interviews, it was easy to see her personality and why people would gravitate to her, as they did Diana and Mary. The Tempts being on the show allows for more distribution of camera time without forcing Mary and Cindy into spotlight roles that the latter in particular was ill equipped to handle.

Some good points Ran. I think TCB without the Tempts would have to feature at least a couple of tribute medley’s to give Mary and Cindy more to do. As original members, i would love to have seen Diana and Mary doing something alone and perhaps bringing Cindy in towards the end.
I think teaming up with the Tempts lent the group a little extra street cred for a time.

**RanRan79** · 03-22-2021, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Ollie9

Some good points Ran. I think TCB without the Tempts would have to feature at least a couple of tribute medley’s to give Mary and Cindy more to do. As original members, i would love to have seen Diana and Mary doing something alone and perhaps bringing Cindy in towards the end.
I think teaming up with the Tempts lent the group a little extra street cred for a time.

What's really a shame is that the second special was wasted on the Broadway theme. With some imagination, the second special could've been bigger and better than the first.

**daviddh** · 03-22-2021, 07:29 PM

I'm sure it helped since both albums went gold and the single went platinum.
But I think the problem was BG over controlling the group.
He obviously was thinking with the wrong head

**Ollie9** · 03-23-2021, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

What's really a shame is that the second special was wasted on the Broadway theme. With some imagination, the second special could've been bigger and better than the first.

The second special which ended up as not very special at all was more about BG’s vision of a black Barbra Streisand. The others just happened to be in the room at the same time lol.

**BayouMotownMan** · 03-23-2021, 10:01 AM

The first duet lp was definitely a help. DRATS record sales dropped dramatically in 1968 in the pop market and especially in the R&B market while The Tempts were quite strong in the R&B market. Between Love Child, a hit TV special and soundtrack and the duet lp, DRATS went into 1969 white hot.

But it didn't last. Record sales for DRATS tanked again while the Tempts were getting more popular. By the time they did the second lp the Temptations were hotter than DRATS. Add to it a second special that was not well received and Berry Gordy was in a tizzy...he couldn't pull Ross out of the group without a major hit. He got SWBT at the last minute and was able to pull Ross out with a huge hit record.

**sup_fan** · 03-23-2021, 11:30 AM

i might be simplifying things too much. but DR and the Supremes [[as separate entities) seemed to have better luck than DRATS. Again, i might be making too broad of strokes here but if the duets broadened the appeal of the Temps [[along with their new sound and look), it's interesting that the girls didn't attend new sounds or looks until they'd split up. and then both the Sups and DR definitely worked to increase their appeal to the r&b base.

with Jean the girls definitely had a more soulful and better r&b hits. here are the r&b charts

Reflections 4
In and out 16
Forever 17
Some Things 43
LC 2
I'm gonna make 2
Shame 8
I'll try 8
composer 21
sign 17
someday 1

ladder 5
everybody 11
SL 1
River 7
Nathan 8
Gotta have love 41
touch -- didnt chart
floy joy 5
auto sun 21
YWSSL 21
miss the man 22
BW 74