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  1. #1

    what went wrong - Reflections lp

    looking at the "hits" studio albums [[in other words ignoring the concept and Copa albums), Reflections was the first flop, so to speak.

    Where - #2, on charts for 89 weeks
    More Hits - #6, 37 weeks
    Symphony - #8, 37 weeks
    A Go Go - #1, 52 weeks
    HDH - #6, 29 weeks [[ouch!!)

    Reflections - #18, 28 weeks

    the title track was a huge hit. plus In and Out was a top 10. There were no simultaneous releases to slow it down.

    and i'd argue that there were plenty of weak tracks on earlier lps like A Go Go and HDH.

    so what went wrong?

  2. #2
    I would venture that Motown waited too long to release the album.

    It might have done better if they had released it in 1967, around the time of the title track or IN AND OUT OF LOVE. But they waited to release it until March 1968, and on the heels of a less-than-successful single, FOREVER CAME TODAY. Interest that the hit singles would have garnered was most likely gone and also, a lot of fans were probably still grabbing the GREATEST HITS collection.

    But #18 on the charts and a 28-week chart span isn't really all that bad, is it? If anything, it shows that the girls' automatic hit machine had slowed down.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    I would venture that Motown waited too long to release the album.

    It might have done better if they had released it in 1967, around the time of the title track or IN AND OUT OF LOVE. But they waited to release it until March 1968, and on the heels of a less-than-successful single, FOREVER CAME TODAY. Interest that the hit singles would have garnered was most likely gone and also, a lot of fans were probably still grabbing the GREATEST HITS collection.

    But #18 on the charts and a 28-week chart span isn't really all that bad, is it? If anything, it shows that the girls' automatic hit machine had slowed down.
    true - it's definitely relative. so the flop is based purely on the much stronger preceding albums

    interesting point though about the timing. Greatest Hits was release shortly after Reflections [[the single) peaked. GH itself peaked in late October at #1 and claimed that spot for 5 weeks. the album was in the Top 10 for 24 weeks! it was such a powerful seller that i think the Reflections lp could have easily been released in late 67. maybe try to capture the holiday market. In and Out was released in late Oct and peaked in early Dec

  4. #4
    The lp was not released in 67 because their Motown catalog was full with the Greatest Hits being one of Motown's biggest sellers of the 1960s

    What held back this lp was radio programmers not taking well to the new billing. Also, Forever did so poorly that it compromised the lp as well. Motown was concentrating on singles, lps didn't become a priority until later. The lp was successful, it made money. But Berry Gordy inundated us with them. It was almost as if the group was competing with itself for sales. Later in 1968 in a desperate effort to re-establish the group Gordy inundated the market even more. By the end of 1968 Motown released Love Child, Funny Girl, Join and TCB within a few weeks of each other. This was just too much. Love Child would have been a much bigger hit lp had this not happened and Funny Girl was terribly unsuccessful. Gordy was successful in re-establishing Diana Ross and the Supremes was it didn't sustain. By the summer of 1969 they were cold again.

  5. #5
    I think the original plan was to release REFLECTIONS on the GREATEST HITS album but they decided to save it for its own release instead. Of course, they had no idea that the Supremes' record sales were starting to become inconsistent.

    But it just proved that although the group were strong album sellers, most of their successful albums [[aside from the Copa and TCB) were tied to current hit singles.

  6. #6
    I think the release so many months after the album's biggest hit didn't help. HDH was released less than 2 weeks after the single release of Love is here and a GO GO was released a month after You can't hurry love. I hear symphony was released roughly a month and a half after My world is empty. Even though My world wasn't number 1 it was still a massive hit at number 5. Reflections would have probably done better released soon after In and out of love. But Greatest Hits was just released so that would have been a battle between the 2. I think I would have gone for Greatest hits if I had to choose. For someone with a low income I'd go for a LP knowing that all the songs on it were smash hits.

  7. #7
    Side 2 was basically a covers LP.

    Not enough original music and the end of HDH.

  8. #8
    Love the A-side but the B-side is bad [[not terrible lol), except for Then. I don't like the covers. What if they released Reflections in October 1967 with the release of In and out of love. Included the Happening and have a #1 single, a #2 and #9 on the LP. Most of the songs on Reflections don't seem to go together for me anyway.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    What held back this lp was radio programmers not taking well to the new billing.
    I wonder if the new billing and Florence leaving had any affect on it, as well. Florence's exit, from what I understand, was still noticed by the pubic and reported in newspapers, so I wonder if die-hard fans of the original trio were turned off, or at least made less interested in, the new lineup.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    The lp was not released in 67 because their Motown catalog was full with the Greatest Hits being one of Motown's biggest sellers of the 1960s

    What held back this lp was radio programmers not taking well to the new billing. Also, Forever did so poorly that it compromised the lp as well. Motown was concentrating on singles, lps didn't become a priority until later. The lp was successful, it made money. But Berry Gordy inundated us with them. It was almost as if the group was competing with itself for sales. Later in 1968 in a desperate effort to re-establish the group Gordy inundated the market even more. By the end of 1968 Motown released Love Child, Funny Girl, Join and TCB within a few weeks of each other. This was just too much. Love Child would have been a much bigger hit lp had this not happened and Funny Girl was terribly unsuccessful. Gordy was successful in re-establishing Diana Ross and the Supremes was it didn't sustain. By the summer of 1969 they were cold again.
    all very interesting!

    again if you skip the concept albums [[Sing R&H in this case), it had been over a year between Sing HDH and Reflections. and nothing else was released in the first half of 68 to compete with this album. but you're right, Love Child definitely had to contend with Join as they were released within weeks of each other. plus all of the other albums between Aug and Dec of 68.

    interesting that radio programmers were reacting negatively to the name change. I'm assuming they did NOT have similar reaction to the Miracles becoming Smokey Robinson &...

  11. #11
    I figured it was a combo of Reese's point and Bayou's point, as well as Ant's. I also wonder what role, if any, the album sound played. IMO, Reflections is the first of the "singles" albums where the sound doesn't pop. It has a boring mood to it, although there are a few songs on it that I do like a lot. It's not an exciting album. There really isn't any dance tunes on it. The Symphony album is definitely a mood album, but it is also a mix of MOR and Motown. The tracks on side 2 are very good to excellent. On Reflections Side 1 is definitely better than side 2, but it's all still so laidback. Might be interesting to consider if a different tracklist would've made a difference in the album's success.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    interesting that radio programmers were reacting negatively to the name change. I'm assuming they did NOT have similar reaction to the Miracles becoming Smokey Robinson &...
    Keep in mind the public's perception of the groups. I think the public probably already considered the Miracles "Smokey Robinson and...". Smokey was a well known songwriter and producer. He even had his name and photo on someone else's album [[the Tempts) two years before the name change. Although history is occasionally re-written around here, pretty much up until Flo's exit, the public and the industry considered the Supremes a true group, with three identifiable singers. I wasn't around back then, but it's hard for me to believe that anyone outside of some of the most diehard fans would've batted an eye if Pete or Ronnie or Bobby were replaced. Renaming a true group had to come with some backlash. Of course all is forgiven when the music is great, as proven when the Supremes teamed up with the Tempts, as well as the release of "Love Child" and "Someday".

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    looking at the "hits" studio albums [[in other words ignoring the concept and Copa albums), Reflections was the first flop, so to speak.

    Where - #2, on charts for 89 weeks
    More Hits - #6, 37 weeks
    Symphony - #8, 37 weeks
    A Go Go - #1, 52 weeks
    HDH - #6, 29 weeks [[ouch!!)

    Reflections - #18, 28 weeks



    so what went wrong?
    The cover of Reflections album was makeshift and blah. There was no dedicated photo shoot.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I figured it was a combo of Reese's point and Bayou's point, as well as Ant's. I also wonder what role, if any, the album sound played. IMO, Reflections is the first of the "singles" albums where the sound doesn't pop. It has a boring mood to it, although there are a few songs on it that I do like a lot. It's not an exciting album. There really isn't any dance tunes on it. The Symphony album is definitely a mood album, but it is also a mix of MOR and Motown. The tracks on side 2 are very good to excellent. On Reflections Side 1 is definitely better than side 2, but it's all still so laidback. Might be interesting to consider if a different tracklist would've made a difference in the album's success.
    I will admit that REFLECTIONS isn't one of favorite albums. It isn't bad but like you wrote, Side 1 is definitely better than Side 2.

    That said, the only reason I know that is because I actually bought and played it. Did the album have bad word-of-mouth back in the day? Were there bad reviews that might make a fan choose not to purchase it?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    The cover of Reflections album was makeshift and blah. There was no dedicated photo shoot.
    see i thought the cover was kinda cool. so many pics to look at and all. versus the traditional 1 cover photo

    the back cover was IMO weak. the single pic of diana up close

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    ...interesting that radio programmers were reacting negatively to the name change. I'm assuming they did NOT have similar reaction to the Miracles becoming Smokey Robinson &...
    Programmers might have also reacted to the revised DRAS billing because it happened at the same time as the group lost an original member. Even to non-conspiracy theorists, the timing might be suspect.

  17. #17
    Their version of "ode to Billie joe" is fantastic and "in and out of love " is my all time favorite Supremes track

  18. #18
    At the time Reflections was going to be the last Supremes single .....a farewell tour with Flo in tow was being planned.
    However...Flo didn't come back and Ross stated she wasn't ready to go solo.
    Also HDH was leaving ...not sure exactly when. But Motown felt the Supremes would not recover.
    Love child was a long while off yet so after the Hits lol ...Motown went back to Reflections to get product out until new music was ready.
    Had the hits lol not been released I'm sure Reflections would have done better.
    Can't wait for the expanded edition.
    Hopefully Kevin reeves does a new mix on Forever Came Today.
    It just doesnt sparkle like the other songs but I like it
    Side two is filled with what seems like demos

  19. #19
    I wonder how much of the HDH material on Reflections was done and ready before HDH left?

    Reflections - HDH and completed on May 9. so of course this was HDH
    Im gonna make it - Deke, completed 12/21
    Forever came today - HDH and completed on Jan 23, 1968 so maybe them or maybe not?
    I can't make it alone - HDH completed 12/31 - ?? wonder here too
    In and out - HDH completed JUly 7 so this should be them
    bah bah bah - Frank Wilson, completed Jan 3 68

    what the world needs now - HDH April 18, 1966
    UP up and away - HDH Nov 17, 1967
    Love makes me do - HDH Jan 31 1967
    then - smokey, Nov 14, 67
    Misery - smokey, July 6, 1966
    Ode to billie joe - HDH Nov 15, 1967

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    Their version of "ode to Billie joe" is fantastic and "in and out of love " is my all time favorite Supremes track
    "Ode to Billie Joe" is nice enough, but I really feel Mary was better suited to it. If Diana was to do it, I'd rather she have sung in her lower range to keep with the "dark" vibe of the song.

    I'm not sure I would've voted to release "In and Out" as a single, but I do like it a lot. Can't wait for the expanded Reflections when we finally get to hear the Funk Brothers version [[and hopefully just Flo and Mary without the Andantes assist).

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    At the time Reflections was going to be the last Supremes single .....a farewell tour with Flo in tow was being planned.
    However...Flo didn't come back and Ross stated she wasn't ready to go solo.
    Also HDH was leaving ...not sure exactly when. But Motown felt the Supremes would not recover.
    Love child was a long while off yet so after the Hits lol ...Motown went back to Reflections to get product out until new music was ready.
    Had the hits lol not been released I'm sure Reflections would have done better.
    Can't wait for the expanded edition.
    Hopefully Kevin reeves does a new mix on Forever Came Today.
    It just doesnt sparkle like the other songs but I like it
    Side two is filled with what seems like demos
    I don't believe "Reflections" was ever seriously considered the last single. Apparently there was brief discussion of the "what if" question regarding Diana as a solo in 1966. It's possible that it was then that Gordy began to map out Diana the solo star, but if he didn't think she was ready in 1966, she definitely wasn't anymore ready in 1967. The name being changed to DRATS was greenlit as early as Spring 1967. It's hard to fathom that the group would've been DRATS for one single and then that's all folks.

  22. #22
    Never heard that 'Reflections' was to be their final single! 'Reflections' is my fav 60's Supremes album. I have had it on CD for about 20 years, it has the bonus tracks 'Stay In My Lonely Arms' & 'All I Know About You'. In '68 music was changing, funk was big, the Supremes had been around for a long time. Pop groups don't last forever. HDH had gone and there was really no back up as Gordy had put all his eggs in one basket. The album, as much as I love it, had no cohesion but then none of their albums really had. There were 4 Supremes on the album plus of course the Andantes. There were two very old singles and their current one which by their standards was a massive flop. 'Forever Came Today' is actually by fav DRATS single. The market was being saturated by Supremes albums, in '68 they had 4 albums released. Their fan base was changing.'Funny Girl' was a huge mistake, this 15 yo kid was certainly not interested nor were my friends. #18 is not too shabby for an album that was issued about 10 mths too late.

  23. #23
    Flo's last ever studio vocal for the group was on "going all the way to true love " a great track that was worthy as an addition to the album

  24. #24
    there are some tracks that were left in the can that could definitely been added to the album which might have made it stronger

    It's going all the way
    am i asking too much
    a little breeze
    stay in my lonely arms

    plus there were some songs that were started but perhaps not finished in time. but you could maybe coax them along to rush them onto the album

    when it's to the top
    sweet thing
    honey bee
    can't shake it loose
    if you should walk a way

    early 1968 saw a lot of recording activity. maybe they could have pulled in some better material

  25. #25
    With the gift of hindsight, I think a better option would have been to re-work A' Go-Go, skip Sing HDH, and release the Reflections album in 1967 with some stronger material.

    Even though the group's singles didn't chart well in early 1968, they could have put out a strong album using all of the material they had recorded after Cindy joined, then released a more cohesive Love Child album in early 1969.

    But again, hindsight is 20/20. I'm also thinking in terms of album quality rather than record sales.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Thornton View Post
    With the gift of hindsight, I think a better option would have been to re-work A' Go-Go, skip Sing HDH, and release the Reflections album in 1967 with some stronger material.

    Even though the group's singles didn't chart well in early 1968, they could have put out a strong album using all of the material they had recorded after Cindy joined, then released a more cohesive Love Child album in early 1969.

    But again, hindsight is 20/20. I'm also thinking in terms of album quality rather than record sales.
    but hindsight is so much fun!! lol

    Thorn - what tracks would you do on these reworked lps? I love comparing and playing "producer" with other fans to see how we might each have altered things. and often i'll do playlists on them

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    but hindsight is so much fun!! lol

    Thorn - what tracks would you do on these reworked lps? I love comparing and playing "producer" with other fans to see how we might each have altered things. and often i'll do playlists on them
    Haha, it is fun! I'll just include Reflections and the '68 album as those would be the most different. My A' Go-Go mix includes You Keep Me Hangin' On. My Love Child mix includes I'm Livin' In Shame.

    Reflections [[Summer 1967 Version)
    1. Reflections [[no fade out)
    2. Going Down For The Third Time
    3. Love Is Here And Now You're Gone
    4. In And Out Of Love
    5. Let The Music Play
    6. The Happening
    7. There's No Stopping Us Now
    8. I Guess I'll Always Love You
    9. Just A Little Misunderstanding
    10. Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
    11. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted? [[no fade out)
    12. It's Going All The Way To True Love

    1968 Album
    1. I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
    2. Am I Asking Too Much?
    3. Some Things You Never Get Used To
    4. Forever Came Today
    5. Heaven Must Have Sent You
    6. Bah, Bah, Bah
    7. The Beginning Of The End Of Love
    8. The Nitty Gritty
    9. I Can't Make It Alone
    10. You've Been So Wonderful To Me
    11. Can't Take My Eyes Off You
    12. Then

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Thornton View Post
    Haha, it is fun! I'll just include Reflections and the '68 album as those would be the most different. My A' Go-Go mix includes You Keep Me Hangin' On. My Love Child mix includes I'm Livin' In Shame.

    Reflections [[Summer 1967 Version)
    1. Reflections [[no fade out)
    2. Going Down For The Third Time
    3. Love Is Here And Now You're Gone
    4. In And Out Of Love
    5. Let The Music Play
    6. The Happening
    7. There's No Stopping Us Now
    8. I Guess I'll Always Love You
    9. Just A Little Misunderstanding
    10. Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
    11. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted? [[no fade out)
    12. It's Going All The Way To True Love

    1968 Album
    1. I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You)
    2. Am I Asking Too Much?
    3. Some Things You Never Get Used To
    4. Forever Came Today
    5. Heaven Must Have Sent You
    6. Bah, Bah, Bah
    7. The Beginning Of The End Of Love
    8. The Nitty Gritty
    9. I Can't Make It Alone
    10. You've Been So Wonderful To Me
    11. Can't Take My Eyes Off You
    12. Then
    great lists. and a totally different approach from how i went at it. i kept to the same general release schedule but completely reshuffled the tracks and all.

    I don't really care for In And Out Of Love. At one point, i was on wikipedia and read about this song. They described the category as "Sunshine Pop" which was a style of 60s pop music focused in the LA area. groups such as 5th Dimension, Beach Boys, Mamas and Papas, The Association

    learning this didn't make me like the song but i definitely gained a greater appreciation for it and some of the tunes on the original Reflections lp. the album sort of takes on a "motown does California" thing with Reflections and some of the psychedelic soul tunes representing San Fran and In & Out, Up Up & Away and a few others doing LA/Sunshine.

    My retake on the song list is:

    Reflections
    I'm gonna make it
    I can't make it alone
    In and out of Love
    Misery makes its home
    ode to billie joe

    Forever came today
    it's going all the way
    am i asking too much
    A little breeze
    Up up and away
    bah bah bah

  29. #29
    hopefully George may jump in here but , i do believe my info is correct.
    wasnt flo fired aug 67
    reflections was released aound the same time and
    HDH was leaving or left
    motown felt it was over. partly discussed by Shelly Berger in Motown 40 tv special
    also
    Mamas and Papas fired Michele and toured without her and with her replacement . the tour was cancelled as fans protested. Michelle was brought back.
    Gordy was afraid the fans were going to do the same with Supremes and Flos departure, which is partly why no reason was given. they tried to play it down.
    have to pull out some of those above gems. a little breeze was a fav and i think would have fit into Reflections plus i would have added The Happening.
    should have dropped the awful up up and away.lackluster

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    hopefully George may jump in here but , i do believe my info is correct.
    wasnt flo fired aug 67
    reflections was released aound the same time and
    HDH was leaving or left
    motown felt it was over. partly discussed by Shelly Berger in Motown 40 tv special
    also
    Mamas and Papas fired Michele and toured without her and with her replacement . the tour was cancelled as fans protested. Michelle was brought back.
    Gordy was afraid the fans were going to do the same with Supremes and Flos departure, which is partly why no reason was given. they tried to play it down.
    have to pull out some of those above gems. a little breeze was a fav and i think would have fit into Reflections plus i would have added The Happening.
    should have dropped the awful up up and away.lackluster
    I believe Flo's last shows were July 1. Her bday was June 30 and according to Randy's book, those shows went fine. the Flamingo engagement started on June 29. so the first two days went ok. during the shows on the 30th, Diana acknowledged flos bday and the audience sang her the Birthday Song. There was a party that evening in one of the suites too. Then everyone went out clubbing.

    A rehearsal was scheduled for late morning on July 1 but the girls mostly spend the day sleeping and resting from the partying the night before. Flo came down and [[according to the tailor that made the garments and was also doing some candid photos of the group) found the garment bag with the Cindy name tag on it. that was when things exploded. Flo admitted in an interview in the 70s that she had had some drinks that evening but she hasn't stated if she was or wasn't drunk. She wore Cindy's outfit onstage that night and did the "fat is where it's at" bit while sticking out her stomach

    on July 2 is when she left Vegas and flew home.

    Reflections was released as a single on July 24, 67

    i'm not sure when or how the HDH timeline plays out. the books i've read are sort of vague as to when they started slowing down their work. Apparently they were wanting a bigger piece of the royalties and all, more money. i've also heard they wanted a label within the motown structure or different levels of authority. maybe more executive title and compensation. etc. I'm not 100% sure but the story goes is that sometime in 67 they started to slow down their work. they hadn't stopped but they were sort of MIA. berry with on the road with the girls and so it took a while for him to realize the situation

    At some point Eddie and Berry met as Eddie was sort of the defacto spokesman. The story i read is that meeting did NOT go well and Eddie left, never to return.

    i've read that the sessions for the Tops' I'm In A Different World were the final one HDH did.

  31. #31
    Thanks for filling in blanks.
    Maybe we are getting Reflections for Diana's b day

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    Thanks for filling in blanks.
    Maybe we are getting Reflections for Diana's b day
    That would be great. And so would Ross 78.

  33. #33
    I enjoyed the Reflections album when it was released. I liked that Side 1 was all Motown. Side 2 was a nice mix of Easy Listening Motown originals and Pop Hits.

    The Pop-influenced sound of the Reflections album was definitely a contrast to the more typical Motown Sound of Sing HDH. Maybe that was the direction Motown thought the newly-renamed group should take. It seems that an additional single was planned about the time of the album's release: "What The World Needs Now Is Love" b/w "Your Kiss Of Fire". Two odd choices, imo.

    If an easy-listening single was wanted maybe "Then" should have been the choice b/w "Love Makes Me Do Foolish Things". I think that might have helped sales. It might have given the album a few more weeks on the chart and helped it skip into the Top 10 for a nanosecond.

    The biggest problem with this album were the "hits". "In And Out Of Love" was too Pop and bouncy without an edge. Hummable but no match to their earlier hits. "Forever Came Today", which I used to love, is just too dramatic to grab listeners other than the die-hard fans.

    It's surprising that with the emergence of Aretha in 1967 into 1968 with 6+ soulful hits, that Motown would decide The Supremes [[Diana Ross) should stray from the driving Motown Sound into pure Pop! Thankfully songs more befitting the group were recorded for the Love Child album.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by johnjeb View Post

    The Pop-influenced sound of the Reflections album was definitely a contrast to the more typical Motown Sound of Sing HDH. Maybe that was the direction Motown thought the newly-renamed group should take. It seems that an additional single was planned about the time of the album's release: "What The World Needs Now Is Love" b/w "Your Kiss Of Fire". Two odd choices, imo.
    It is an odd coupling, isn't it? I can't believe Motown was really considering releasing it as a single.

    One of the books gives it a release date of 4/68, which makes me think it was probably a promo released to DJs only to promote the REFLECTIONS album. And even then, I wonder what good it would have done. Their version of WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW IS LOVE is rather limp, IMO. If I had been around then and heard this, it certainly wouldn't have made me part with my hard earned $.

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    hopefully George may jump in here but , i do believe my info is correct.
    wasnt flo fired aug 67
    reflections was released aound the same time and
    HDH was leaving or left
    motown felt it was over. partly discussed by Shelly Berger in Motown 40 tv special
    also
    Mamas and Papas fired Michele and toured without her and with her replacement . the tour was cancelled as fans protested. Michelle was brought back.
    Gordy was afraid the fans were going to do the same with Supremes and Flos departure, which is partly why no reason was given. they tried to play it down.
    have to pull out some of those above gems. a little breeze was a fav and i think would have fit into Reflections plus i would have added The Happening.
    should have dropped the awful up up and away.lackluster
    Flo was fired at the start of July. "Reflections" was released later that month. The scenario you present just doesn't make any business sense. If "Reflections" was going to be the last, then there was no point in firing Flo and replacing her with anyone. Even if the suggestion is that once Flo was fired that the decision was made to make the next single the final one and send Diana alone, it still doesn't make sense. DRATS schedule was packed and a lot of that stuff was booked well in advance. No way was Diana Ross going to be able to do concerts and television shows without the Supremes when it's the Supremes who are booked for those appearances. I'm not discounting that you read this scenario somewhere, all kinds of things have been written over the years, but it just doesn't make sense.

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by johnjeb View Post
    It's surprising that with the emergence of Aretha in 1967 into 1968 with 6+ soulful hits, that Motown would decide The Supremes [[Diana Ross) should stray from the driving Motown Sound into pure Pop! Thankfully songs more befitting the group were recorded for the Love Child album.
    Yup. I think Gordy and co realized the mistake and steered the group in a different direction starting with "Love Child". The group recorded some real funky stuff with the Tempts also.

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    It is an odd coupling, isn't it? I can't believe Motown was really considering releasing it as a single.

    One of the books gives it a release date of 4/68, which makes me think it was probably a promo released to DJs only to promote the REFLECTIONS album. And even then, I wonder what good it would have done. Their version of WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW IS LOVE is rather limp, IMO. If I had been around then and heard this, it certainly wouldn't have made me part with my hard earned $.
    Motown found itself stuck on stupid so many different times throughout the years that it would not surprise me if some idiot really did want "What the World Needs" released as a single. It's one of the worst things the group ever did, IMO. The track is unimaginative, Diana sounds halfway disinterested, and Flo and Mary sound like they'd rather be doing anything but recording this song at all. With some imagination this could've actually been one of the group's best covers. Get Diana in the zone and her lyrical interpretation skills are excellent. Motown the hell out of the track. Push Flo and Mary to tap into their powerhouse abilities. Oh boy, we would've been in for a treat. But instead we got what we got. [[I will admit what the guys did to the song on the A Go Go EE made the song a bit more listenable than it's original state.)

  38. #38
    Is it true the first pressings included Flo on the cover or is that a Motown Myth ?

  39. #39
    i think some fans on here have stated that they have the original pressing with the new cover glued on top

  40. #40
    as i get older things seem to blend together, i honestly do not remember as much or as clearly as i did 10 years ago. part of it is really ,not my story. its the Supremes.
    what i seem to recall[[jump in George or Andy) Flo was fired from the group, at the same time the Mamas and Papas fired Michele Philips but the fans had a huge bad reaction to this during their tour. so much so, they cancelled the tour and rehired Michele. some recordings during this period do not include Michele but her replacement.
    Berry was aware of the Mamas and Papas disaster as i am sure it was big news then. Gordy apparenty had second thoughts on Flo departure and he and the management felt the Supremes would not recover the loss of Hdh.
    it was decided to retire the group , the Greatest Hits was released and it originally contained Reflections .
    the plan, the hits lp and a farewell tour with Florence.
    obviously Cindy B stayed on. as did Diana and reflections was replaced on the lp with Crossroads of Love.
    i suppose the rest will come out on the expanded edition hopefully

  41. #41
    Name:  diana-ross-supremes-reflections-orig_1_21e2bc026ac0e018f948e9cf2abac226.jpg
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    Mexican LP

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    as i get older things seem to blend together, i honestly do not remember as much or as clearly as i did 10 years ago. part of it is really ,not my story. its the Supremes.
    what i seem to recall[[jump in George or Andy) Flo was fired from the group, at the same time the Mamas and Papas fired Michele Philips but the fans had a huge bad reaction to this during their tour. so much so, they cancelled the tour and rehired Michele. some recordings during this period do not include Michele but her replacement.
    Berry was aware of the Mamas and Papas disaster as i am sure it was big news then. Gordy apparenty had second thoughts on Flo departure and he and the management felt the Supremes would not recover the loss of Hdh.
    it was decided to retire the group , the Greatest Hits was released and it originally contained Reflections .
    the plan, the hits lp and a farewell tour with Florence.
    obviously Cindy B stayed on. as did Diana and reflections was replaced on the lp with Crossroads of Love.
    i suppose the rest will come out on the expanded edition hopefully
    while i've not heard of Reflections being the final single, i'm sure you're right about the trepidation everyone felt at the time.

    What if after Reflections was released it DIDN'T chart well or what if concert attendance dropped off drastically or something else? If the public rejected the change in lineup, then it would have accelerated Diana's departure.

    add into this the HDH fiasco and you probably had lots of motown brass sweating bullets. and this probably lasted well into mid 68. you did have the single Reflections do very well. but each subsequent one did worse. the reflections lp only went to 18 or so, then TOTT did something like 50 and Funny Girl bombed. the group had really declined over the course of 1 year

    then they did rebound with LC and the duets. but things were def shaky for quite a while

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    as i get older things seem to blend together, i honestly do not remember as much or as clearly as i did 10 years ago. part of it is really ,not my story. its the Supremes.
    what i seem to recall[[jump in George or Andy) Flo was fired from the group, at the same time the Mamas and Papas fired Michele Philips but the fans had a huge bad reaction to this during their tour. so much so, they cancelled the tour and rehired Michele. some recordings during this period do not include Michele but her replacement.
    Berry was aware of the Mamas and Papas disaster as i am sure it was big news then. Gordy apparenty had second thoughts on Flo departure and he and the management felt the Supremes would not recover the loss of Hdh.
    it was decided to retire the group , the Greatest Hits was released and it originally contained Reflections .
    the plan, the hits lp and a farewell tour with Florence.
    obviously Cindy B stayed on. as did Diana and reflections was replaced on the lp with Crossroads of Love.
    i suppose the rest will come out on the expanded edition hopefully
    John Phillips fired Michelle Phillips after discovering her affair [[one of which had been with group-mate Denny Doherty) with Gene Clark of The Byrds in the beginning of June 1966. The "legend" goes that Jill Gibson, a model and former girlfriend of Jan Berry of Jan and Dean fame, was visiting friend/producer Lou Adler in the studio the night of Michelle's firing and, shortly afterward, John chose to replace Michelle with Jill. The group left [[with newly-hired Jill) within a week for a multi-week tour in England. Upon their return to Los Angeles in July 1966, Gibson went in the studio with the rest of the group recording more tracks for the M&Ps second album in between going out on the road for various concert appearances around the country. While the promotion machine began touting Jill as "the newest Mama" and supposedly a majority of then fans were accepting of Jill taking Michelle's place in the group during the appearances made in July and August 1966, John Phillips [["and others") claimed that the chemistry possessed by him, Denny, Cass, and Michelle...just wasn't there with Jill in the group. Phillips apparently decided it would be best to have his wife, Michelle, return to her position in the group and to let Jill Gibson go. MY opinion about all this is that John Phillips was punishing Michelle in a very, very public way and had things overall with Jill Gibson gone smashingly, Michelle would have stayed fired. I suspect that when John noticed that things on stage just didn't feel quite the same without Michelle, he probably began to reconsider his decision. Plus, he'd probably made his point with Michelle after publicly humiliating her in a way that he felt she'd privately humiliated him. This was less of a "disaster" than Phillips likely feeling he'd made his point with his wife/group-mate after realizing the electricity of the group was better with her there than not there. Unlike Florence and Berry, John was married to Michelle and they still lived together. There were different things involved in the decision to fire Michelle and eventually bring her back than there were in Florence being fired from The Supremes. I'd think that Michelle's return was not quite as highly promoted as Jill's entry because then they'd have to explain why she was gone in the first place and then brought back. The feeling/approach was likely to carry on and continue riding the success and just pretend June-August 1966 never happened for the Mamas and Papas. I have to doubt Berry knew of any inner details of why Michelle was fired, why Jill Gibson was hired and fired, and why Michelle returned. I would think that Berry acted with Florence in that moment and related to Florence and how she was affecting the booming business that was The Supremes and not "how did the fans/public react to Jill Gibson replacing Michelle Phillips?" Do I think there was trepidation from Berry and his executives about whether or not it was the right decision to keep Florence or let her go? SURE. I would think Berry felt that keeping Florence out of the Hollywood Bowl show [[a high profile event for both the group AND Motown's education scholarship fund announcement) was a punishment--and a public one at that. Clearly Berry wasn't fixed on a decision about Flo being out because he let her return a few weeks after the Bowl to appear at the Copa--an always important venue for the group--and to continue on with the group [[appearing and recording) past that big gig and on to Las Vegas...another important gig. Although I think the final decision about Flo was made in Las Vegas, I suspect that had Florence kept herself in check for several more months, Berry would have likely thanked Cindy for her time, rewarded her with a generous one-time payment [[charged to The Supremes' account, I'm sure LOL), and let her return to the wilds of New Jersey and The Bluebelles [[if they'd taken her back). I don't think the situation experienced by the Mamas and The Papas with Michelle ever really factored into Berry's thought process or decisions involving Florence. By that point, the goal was likely to make sure that Diana's career was protected and kept healthy and Berry and Company were likely less concerned with how Florence [[or even Mary) was affected by that. Whether they brought in Cindy or anyone else [[which, Motown clearly had no problem with group member replacements--see The Vandellas, The Temptations, and The Velvelettes--so again--it was all about protecting Diana's career), the decision to put Diana out as a solo by the Fall of 1967 was likely not at the top of the list of choices, but rather making sure the vehicle that was propelling her career [[The Supremes) was remaining viable for as long as they needed it to be.

  44. #44
    Its also been said that Berry was hesitant about firing Flo because Jules Podell got wind of Flo being replaced and told Berry he wanted the original group.

    I've always wondered how did Berry and the girls talk Flo into coming back? Clearly she wasn't happy when she did return. Mary says that Flo didn't speak with her or Diana when she came back.

  45. #45
    Can someone remind me again when the big meeting was with Gordy and the Supremes at his house discussing Florence's participation in the group? Was it before or after the Hollywood Bowl?

  46. #46
    i believe the meeting was late april

    On April 23 they were scheduled to play the Loyola Field House in New Orleans. this is the show that D and M did as a duet act

    the hollywood bowl show was on April 29

    So that's a crazy short period for Cindy to learn the act

  47. #47
    here's another thought for this topic

    Reflections was originally planned for the Greatest Hits album. had that happened we might not have even received a Reflections lp. so would In and Out and Forever still have been follow up singles?

    Reflections peaked in early Sept 67 just a couple months after Cindy joined. at that point you have no new album out and no new singles out.

    so what might have been released?

  48. #48
    Good question.
    But in n out was pulled and the Andantees added...
    forever came today probably would have been released unless Ross went solo.
    Then love child would be her first single

  49. #49
    ive always wanted to know what was shown on the Aug 12th edition of "American Bandstand" some sources say it was "Reflections".. was it a promo clip performance ? something by The Supremes appeared on this air date on the show

  50. #50
    good point

    In and Out was released PRIOR to Reflections album being released. so i guess we could assume that would still happen

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