exactly right!!!
while the vast majority of the discussion of this overall time period falls on obvious Flo topics, we shouldn't overlook Cindy. She was brought in to fulfil a job and did so amazingly. learning their show in just a few days, doing so w grace and kindness.
Nothing went wrong with this album it’s a master piece in every way possible also it does not matter what it did on the charts the voice was there and she made a heck of a album
I was always able to listen to every Supremes album all the way through until the Reflections album. Theres still a couple of songs on there that I really don't think I've listened to. Whenever I've played this album I always end up tuning out and doing something else. I think the only late 60s album I listened to all the way through was Love Child and maybe Let the Sunshine In.
I love the Reflections LP cover, controversial lol, and the singles released from this album. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but that's just my opinion. It's the B-side that makes this album feel sloppy and rushed. Just not keen on the first 3 songs, What the world, love makes me do foolish things and up up and away. The A side is great and I can listen to it without skipping a song. I don't think anything went wrong because 18 on the album charts is still very good. Martha and the Vandellas didn't even get a single album in the top 20. Marvelettes were even worse on the album charts.
interesting POV After. what about this album really jumps out to you? I love the sort of despondent tone Diana uses on Reflection. her delivery is like that of a person in shock of heartbreak. But on some of the other tunes like I'm Gonna Make It, it's a different kind of detached. like she's just going through the motions of recording. IMO
would love to hear what really makes this album a gem for you
i think Love Makes Me Do is a lovely track. very well done even if Martha's is still the definitive version.
and Up Up has grown on me. while it's never been a fav of mine [[neither had In and Out), when i learned that both songs fall into the "sunshine pop" sound of the era, it makes sense. that sound had it's base in LA and with groups like the 5th Dimension. Whereas Reflections and some of the other Side A tracks were clearly influenced by psychedelia from San Fran.
so the idea could be [[albeit incomplete) that this is a "motown does California" album.
I agree. Typically I skip tracks on almost every album, but if I'm in the mood for the entire thing, I'll sit through tracks that I'm not necessarily crazy about. I will not do that for Reflections. "What the World Needs Now" is dreadful. I used to hate "Up, Up and Away" also, but it has grown on me a little. I'll play Love Child and Sunshine all the way through, but not Crop. IMO Reflections and Crop are at the bottom of the list if I ranked Supremes albums during the 60s.
What I like about this album is The Voice there is nobody in the history of music as a voice like Diana Ross it flows from song to song it’ll take you to that place there is no denying But this album is great case in point Justin Bieber’s new album though I love them songs are great I can understand hardly understand what he’s singing the songs are boring and then you have an album like this reflections the voice is very clear you can hear Word for Word what she’s singing and then that case it’s a masterpiece
Yeah, I love this version of the song. I seem to recall a thread once where we discussed the cuts that the Supremes did that Martha and the Vs did first and the consensus was that the Supremes could never manage to do those songs justice. I definitely think this is the one exception. Martha is tops on this, but Diana isn't too far behind. Of course I think the song itself is just perfect and might just be one of those that's hard to mess up. I have not heard a version that I didn't like, with my top 3 being Martha, Thee Midnighters, and then Diana.
i love her voice too. i just don't know that i find this album set to be the best display of her vocal capabilities. even if you just look to either side of this album, the albums just pre and post Reflections.
Sing R&H is one of the most perfect albums the group ever released. it stands up there frankly with any Diana Ross album of her career, including Touch me in the morning, the Boss, surrender. I get it if you don't personally care for this genre of music - that's perfectly fine. but you can't deny the vocal skill and magic the girls bring here
FG is another one where you might not like the show or the genre. but DR is superb here. just excellent throughout.
Love Child is an example of the excellent pop music DR and the group could put out. while the album doesn't have a collective approach or theme [[other than maybe just good songs lol), i find the tracks on it are better performed that many of the Reflections tracks
but again, i love comparing and sharing with everyone here your opinion of the Reflections album is wonderful and love hearing your POV
so i don't know if i find What The World as terrible as everyone else. it's certainly not a favorite nor one i add to playlists. but i also don't find it as offensive as everyone else. I agree that the vocals are a bit boring. they could have had more passion when recording it.
Side two including up up and away and what the world needs sounds like run thru's to me.
Sound unfinished
I'm a fan of the original, which I heard before I heard the Supremes version. The original is so well done that any cover version that doesn't at least attempt to take it up a notch, fails in comparison. The drivel HDH produced with this song, there was no attempt to take it up a notch. Not even an attempt to respectfully cover it. Diana's vocal is lackluster at best. And Flo and Mary turn out what is possibly their most boring backing vocal ever. No imagination in the track. Had this song never been released on Reflections and only came out in one of the subsequent vault comps, I probably wouldn't be as hard on it as I would assume it was a demo of sorts. But not only was this bullshit put on an album, it was considered for single release. I wouldn't even want what they were smoking when that decision came across the table.
"What the World" is only a smidge better than their version of "My Guy", which is bad for all or similar reasons.
i'm just totally speculating here
What the World was recorded on 4/18 along with In My Lonely Room, Heat Wave. on the 20th they did It's not Unusual, Get Ready, Sloopy, Money, Satisfaction, This old heart, shake me wake me, mickey monkey
To be honest, some of the vocals from these days just aren't up to Supremes' standards IMO. Diana typically delivered a pretty solid lead but M and F really seem disengaged on many of theirs. were they tires? mad? bored? sick? fed up? who would know.
But What The World is most definitely not the only subpar song that came out of this time
and I agree with you Ran, given other material that we've since received from the vaults, there were stronger options available to include on the album. A Little Breeze would have been a lovely option.
I don't like what the world needs now either, said it earlier. To me it just doesn't fit the album nor does it sound finished. I agree that Mary and Florence sound semi boring. I tried to listen to the alt version on A Go Go expanded but still not keen on it. I think the song would have fitted on the There's a place for us album.
For me the songs on side A are so strong that the songs on side B disappoint. I like Then on side B but only because Cindy is on the background.
It appears it’s always the same ones that are always trashing anything that Diana Ross does it’s too I’m finished it doesn’t sound rightThe sounds don’t match this and that this and this and this is just absolutely ridiculous just enjoy the music don’t destroy it there’s absolutely nothing wrong with any of these songs compared to any singers out there today she does a damn good job and that is a fact
I don't think that very fair to say such thing. The Supremes forum has been good for quite some time and nobody has disrespected any of the ladies, including Diana. This is a forum to discuss and those who don't like a song are allowed to give their opinion. Cindy is my favourite Supremes and I accept that some find her bland or boring because they are entitled to give their opinion.
I love Diana and her voice is fantastic but that does not mean I like every song she sang. People are allowed to say they don't like a song or why. It's part of being member of a forum and sometimes you might read things you do not agree with but nobody has been trashing Diana. There's only 1 CD in my car and guess which one??
Different opinions make this forum more interesting. We all love the Supremes that's why we discuss them. But that doesn't mean we like all their songs or the choices they made or whoever made them for them. I might be speaking for myself here but that's my say in this. Finish, Einde, Fin und Ende.
Sub par, but not downright disrespectful. Lol Let me be clear about the way I view Flo and Mary as backing vocalists: they were as good as anyone in the business. When they were on point, they were really on it. So for them to approach "What the World Needs", which had this original backing vocal that was superb, with the energy Pat Boone might have given it, is almost unforgivable.
The songs you point out aren't necessarily the best representation of what Flo and Mary had to offer [["Satisfaction" being an obvious exception IMO), but none of them, not even "Sloopy", are quite as un-Supreme like as "What the World Needs".
The only thing that gives "World" the edge over "My Guy" is that Diana's lead on "World" is slightly more acceptable than the crap she did on "My Guy". That entire recording is a sin and a shame.
Seven posts in and this person is already insulting forum members because they have a different opinion. I smell someone who's been here for far more than 7 posts and long before this month. I smell someone pissed that the forum has largely been absent the bullshit that got the DRATS section banished to the basement and so decided it was time to shake things up. Don't feed the actual trolls people. Blocked.
Same here. Flo is top rated in my book. But then I go on Diana Ross vids on Youtube and see some of the comments people leave and wonder why, even after a legendary career, they still don't get why Diana's popular. But no reason to go on the attack. People like what they like.
I always think some are even more obsessed with certain people than we are and Youtube is far more vicious than this forum has ever been lol. Love the fact that we all have different views.
I didn't like it when they relegated Cindy even further into the background when they did the joined Temptations version of "Then". I think heaven must have sent you would have been a great inclusion on side 2 of Reflections. Wonder if "the Happening" would have worked on Reflections.
oh i agree! when all the girls were "on" they're without rival. that's sort of my point though. IMO M and F deliver very boring backings on this handful of songs. also these are Frank Wilson productions [[along with Hal Davis). these might have been among the first Frank songs they did. so was working with a new producer the issue? was he trying to be "too soulful" with the productions and instructed the girls to sing extra prim and restrained? were they a bit unsure of what this new producer wanted? did they not have tons of studio time and just needed to crank these out?
Oh yeah, Youtube gets nasty. I try not to read the comments on Supremes/Diana videos. On Soulful Detroit you have a lot of Motown fans who, even if they aren't much into the Supremes or Diana Ross, have some idea of the history and the facts. On random Youtube videos, you get all kind of folks chiming in with what they think are facts. It's really ridiculous.
"Heaven Must Have Sent You" is another great Cindy performance. I definitely prefer Flo to Cindy, but there were times during Cindy's tenure when her beautiful harmony was the standout of a song.
I think "The Happening" would've worked on Reflections, but understand why it wasn't included, since it had already been on the Greatest Hits, which was probably still selling like hot cakes when the Reflections lp was released.
Good point about Frank. Maybe he was more heavily involved than Hal, who was involved in Liverpool and Sam Cooke, both of which are great examples of the group's vocal capabilities. Of course that doesn't explain why we got what we did on "What the World Needs" as that was HDH. Everyone is allowed mistakes. Surely the Supremes would have a session every now and then where one or all of them would be "off", especially considering the amount of recordings they did. But for "World" to make an actual album and be considered for single release? Unacceptable.
Flo was like any other singer. She needed development and she needed the right material. Naturally gifted singers are nothing more than just naturally gifted singers, without the right material. Imagine what Diana's career would've been like had she continued to record "I Want A Guy" type stuff.
Maybe unpopular but I love Flo's vocals on all the songs of a Bit of Liverpool album and the outtakes from that album. She definitely shined on A hard days night and yes she definitely sounds very good on Anyone who had a heart!
i agree that Flo sounds so vibrant and strong on Liverpool. You really get the sense that the 3 girls were having a wildly fun time in the studio. even if the album is less that perfect, it does contain a lot of 3 part harmonies and it's just joyful. maybe tacky or campy lol but there's pure pleasure coming from all 3 girls' voices
maybe of the WDOLG EE bonus tracks are sort of like this too. I Idolize You, Mr Blues, Let me hear you say, that's a funny way, just call me. Now of course none of these songs are in the league of WDOLG, Come See, Symphony, etc. but there's an enjoyment for us fans to them too.
and i know i've mentioned this a few other places. but Flo's brief leads on Breathtaking are really just that - breathtaking. her tone is simply lovely. very warm, tender. she's not forcing anything or sounding "pinched" like she sometimes could. I would have loved to hear her and motown explore this more. we think of mary as the ballad singer but certainly flo could too [[i never listen to People cuz 1) i hate that song and 2) i hate the sup arrangement of it)
Is it correct in taraborrellis chmr that "what the world needs now " was assigned a catalog number for a possible single release ? Or was it for a dj promo only release ?
In his last Diana book, he mentioned that it was assigned a catalog number but its release was cancelled.
In the discography of CHMR as well as DIANA [1985], he specifies that it was a dj only release, which makes more sense. After thinking about it, there's no way Motown could have thought their limp rendition would be a hit single. I wouldn't have even used it as a promo for the album but that's my opinion.
His discography in those books also lists other dj only releases like A HARD DAY'S NIGHT, FUNNY HOW TIME SLIPS AWAY, etc. that were meant to promote the albums they came from.
Last edited by reese; 04-01-2021 at 08:43 AM.
Diana did a excellent job on my guy she sings with soul and conviction I absolutely love it nothing one can do to change that she had the magic
I cracked up at your #1 reason.
Even Flo's vocal on the album version of "Makes No Difference Now" shows that she was perfectly capable of leading a ballad.
I think Mary's early 60s voice lent itself so well to those "I'm a young girl in love but now I've lost my guy" type of ballads like "The Tears" and "Baby Don't Go". There's a pleading in her voice that really wraps itself around these type of tunes. As the 60s progressed, like 1965 and on, she developed this jazzy alto that was so perfect for a silky smooth slow cut.
I don't think Flo could ever sound as "girl in love" as Mary did, so her singing "The Tears" or "Baby Don't Go", I don't know if it would've worked. Maybe it would. I don't know. But she definitely could've handled the more bluesy and/or soulful ballads, maybe like some of the stuff Martha and the Vs were recording. The lady really did have a voice drenched in soul.
Diana's interpretation skills allowed her to use her voice in so many different ways to fit so many different songs. She was the one who really could handle just about anything. Not to say that she didn't have weaknesses. She did. There are definitely times when I listen to the group's work and think a particular song didn't play to Diana's strengths, but that same song would've been perfect for either Flo or Mary.
TYK1986, yes, The Happening could have worked on the Reflections album. Here is my idea for a dream version two-disc set.
Disc One
Coda -- This would be unlisted on the album jacket. It would consist of the last 15 seconds or so of the Reflections single that appear on the No. 1s album and would lead directly into:
Forever Came Today
It's Going All The Way To True, True Love
The Happening -- this would be the extended version from the Holland-Dozier-Holland expanded set; however, the initial bars would be a bit softer, and each repetition would build in intensity due to the increased volume as well as the increased instrumentation until reaching a maximum level as the single's introduction begins.
Too Much A Little Too Soon
Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart
Am I Asking Too Much
Bah-Bah-Bah
The Beginning Of The End Of Love
I Can't Make It Alone
Let The Music Play
I'm Gonna Make It I Will Wait For You
Reflections
Disc Two
Up, Up & Away
Primes/Primettes Medley - from The Ed Sullivan Show
Don't Let True Love Die
Some Things You Never Get Used To
Then
In & Out Of Love
A Little Breeze
Blowin' In The Wind
Ode To Billie Joe
Believe In Me
Our Day Will Come
Strangers In The Night
More - the unreleased studio version
Reflections - fromHollywood Palace, the only live recording of this song where Diana got the lyric correct.
Note: this set would include neither What The World Needs Now nor All I Know About You and I would be fine with that!
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