"Live" studio recording at Motown: did it ever happen?

[lukpac]

I think it's pretty well known that Motown was a pioneer of recording in stages, both on 3-track [[often bouncing from stage to stage) and later on 8- and 16-track. Sometimes lyrics wouldn't even be written when the backing tracks were recorded [[Tears of a Clown being a good example). Even lead and backing vocals would usually not be recorded simultaneously.

But...did Motown *ever* record things "live" in the studio, other than very, very early on? Like Sorry Is A Sorry Word:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAhJMsi_a1U

That was just staged for TV cameras, right? Someone is insisting that while some things were recorded in stages, some were recorded live, and that this is the actual recording session for Sorry Is A Sorry Word. But I've never heard of such a thing being the case.

[mysterysinger]

Another example?

[lukpac]

Another example?

Yeah. That's absolutely staged.

[mysterysinger]

"Mother You, Smother You"

[DWSheffer]

I don't have any insight into your query, but I literally [[re)watched this video just last evening! Other than a couple "live" clips with the Supremes, Mother You and My World Is Empty, I don't really know of any other video taken in the Snakepit. Even though they are staged I could watch hours of this type of material and still be enthralled. I wish there was more out there!
Darin

[reese]

Another example?

This was staged for the show THE ANATOMY OF POP.

The familiar clip of the Supremes in the studio doing MY WORLD IS EMPTY WITHOUT YOU is also from this show.

[bradburger]

As Bob Olhsson has pointed out in the past, from the early days of Motown [2 track tape] Berry would normally cut the band tracks first and overdub the vocals at a later date, and sometimes at different studios to where the band tracks were recorded.

Of course, there will have been a few exceptions no doubt, and even after they upgraded to the 3 track machine at 2648. [I seem to recall the recording/session notes on some of the box sets/compilations mentioned that vocals on certain tracks were cut 'live', but I might be wrong!]

But these would have been the exception to the rule, and the continued practice of overdubbing the vocals at a later time/date would be the normal at Motown especially as the demand for artists to go on tour grew, and once the 8 track machine was installed in Studio A and in use by January 1965, the normal.

As for those 'staged' sessions for TV, they are always great to watch, but are of course do not represent how tracks were produced!

Cheers

Paul

[lukpac]

As Bob Olhsson has pointed out in the past, from the early days of Motown [2 track tape] Berry would normally cut the band tracks first and overdub the vocals at a later date, and sometimes at different studios to where the band tracks were recorded.

Of course, there will have been a few exceptions no doubt, and even after they upgraded to the 3 track machine at 2648. [I seem to recall the recording/session notes on some of the box sets/compilations mentioned that vocals on certain tracks were cut 'live', but I might be wrong!]

But these would have been the exception to the rule, and the continued practice of overdubbing the vocals at a later time/date would be the normal at Motown especially as the demand for artists to go on tour grew, and once the 8 track machine was installed in Studio A and in use by January 1965, the normal.

As for those 'staged' sessions for TV, they are always great to watch, but are of course do not represent how tracks were produced!

Cheers

Paul

That was all my understanding, thanks.

Someone in the YouTube comments for Sorry Is A Sorry Word keeps insisting that 1) this is actual footage of the recording session, and not staged, and 2) Motown often recorded that way. Neither is true to my knowledge.

[mysterysinger]

Smokey "Recording" to a pre-recorded backing track - or another staged affair lol?

[ralpht]

I'm quite certain that Studio A never tried recording live. The place is very small and it would be basically impossible to get any kind of separation no matter how good the baffles were. Just doing rhythm tracks, the Funks were spread out, taking up most of the studio. There most certainly no further room for horns, strings, back-up vocals and whatever.

[mysterysinger]

That seems reasonable Ralph.

Just out of interest where would the Amos Milburn tracks have been recorded?

[bradburger]

I'm quite certain that Studio A never tried recording live. The place is very small and it would be basically impossible to get any kind of separation no matter how good the baffles were. Just doing rhythm tracks, the Funks were spread out, taking up most of the studio. There most certainly no further room for horns, strings, back-up vocals and whatever.

Ralph, prior to about mid 1966 I think, there were indeed no additional rooms for overdubs in Studio A, but two new isolation rooms on the right hand of the studio side [if you were looking down from the studio room steps] were added which became handy for isolation and extra musician space.

But just because of the addition of them, didn't mean the recording practices were changed!

It's interesting for those lucky enough to have got to listen to some of the multitracks [8 track] recordings, as while the horns are on a separate track, they were in most cases cut live with the rhythm section, as you can hear plenty of bleed from them on the other miked tracks like the drums and piano.

Cheers

Paul

[ralpht]

Paul, the problem with the sub rooms was nobody used them. The design was poor so they seemed dark and unattached to the main studio. I always thought the windows were too small, adding to the isolated feeling. My two sub rooms at Tera Shirma had a window that was nearly floor to ceiling. Problem there is they got little use simply because the main studio floor area was large and usually handled most situations. Horns and strings were usually done separately anyway.Meanwhile back at Studio A, the B3 was in one room and the other was used for storage. I did a little session work myself, over dubbing the B3 and I found the room really uncomfortable, lacking an atmosphere of creativity.

[lukpac]

As an aside, I took the tour last fall, and I was really disappointed that they didn't get into the recording and production techniques at all. I felt like most of the time in the studio was spent on "that's the hook David Ruffin hung his coat" and "Paul McCartney played this piano and had it tuned". The tour could be so amazing but instead it was really disappointing.

[DWSheffer]

The tour is geared for casual tourists, not the caliber of most of the participants of the forum.

[bradburger]

Thanks for that info Ralph - very interesting.

I often wondered if anyone using them during a session or later on for overdubs felt, if like you, and if you'll excuse the pun 'isolated', as from the pictures I've seen of them, they do indeed look rather small and the glass looked quite dark.

[You can see them in the Supremes staged session video clip posted above.]

I know Mike Mclean and his technical bods went to the time and trouble of installing a binaural headphone monitoring system for these rooms so as to give those using them a more natural and 'live' sound so that they would at least feel as if they were on the floor with the rest of the musicians. But I seem to recall him mentioning that it wasn't really used or exploited as intended!

I guess that's why it made sense once the Golden World studios had been acquired to do horn, string and any other overdubs there.

Cheers

Paul

[lukpac]

The tour is geared for casual tourists, not the caliber of most of the participants of the forum.

I wouldn't expect them to detail how bouncing from 3-track to 3-track worked. But I think most casual tourists would be absolutely fascinated by how things were recorded. They could put together an amazing interactive presentation...if they wanted to.

I absolutely love Paul McCartney and The Beatles, but spending half the time in the studio talking about how Paul came and said the piano needed tuning totally does a disservice to Motown IMO. Not to mention barely mentioning any of the "behind the scenes" people like H-D-H, Norman Whitfield, etc.

[bradburger]

Here is a great video posted by Joe Chambers talking to Bob Babbit & Paul Riser in Studio A.



You can clearly see the isolation rooms during Paul Riser's interview where he mentions them.

And talking of the great Paul Riser, just so you can here how things sounded prior to the isolation rooms being added, here is the bass, drums, and piano from the 8 track session master of probably his most notable composition/arrangement :-

https://soundcloud.com/brad-burger/c...loud.com/x4kB5

Note the bleed from the horns which were cut with the rhythm section - quite the norm during this period, despite the fact that with 8 tracks you could dub them in later.

Cheers

Paul

[DWSheffer]

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but their aim is to get as many people as they can in and out of the museum every day and as such have limited the time of each tour to the bare minimum to reach that goal. Sorry to veer off topic.......

[garyr]

Thank you for posting all this, as a Motown fan for > 60 years now it is thrilling to me to get it all right from the source.

[ralpht]

That is what we are here for, Gary.

[jsmith]

So, when Motown acts started using the larger Golden World studio, were 'full live' sessions held there OR was the 'standard' Motown way of doing things [[recording in stages) so entrenched by then that the 'old way' was just retained.
The way tracks were cut in stages certainly played into Motown's method of getting numerous singers / groups to add their vocals to existing backing tracks.

[ralpht]

Nothing really changed. Just a more up to date studio. Generally, tracks were cut in Studio A and strings and horns in Studio B, usually separately. Vocals were done in both studios.. This process was not exclusive to Motown. It was pretty much standard procedure in all studios. I once convinced Frank Wilson to use Studio B, when he was hot to record, and Studio A was not available. Even though he was satisfied with the track he cut, he would never again use Studio B, opting for the reputation and history of Studio A.

[bradburger]

Ralph,

It's interesting how sometimes producers, artists, and musicians won't or are reluctant change their mindset when a new studio can be used for recording, or new technology and production methods are introduced!

[I seem to recall there was some hesitation by some producers at Motown to become 'suspicious' when Studio A got the upgrade to the 8 track machine.]

Similarly at Stax, there was reluctance to record tracks the Motown/Detroit way, with the artist/musicians overdubbing at a later date, which Don Davis adopted when he became a permanent Stax staff member. Once it was realised that they could still cut hits this way, they didn't seem too object!

Of course the Stax studio was much larger than Studio A, and despite having a 4 track machine with overdubbing ability by the mid 60s, they would of course cut live with the band and singer/singers [often only using 3 of the 4 tracks] which was how they had always done it, and it worked very well for them. But as the company expanded and with more outside rhythm dates and the upgrade to 8 track, it appears to have made sense, and from the listeners 'ear point', didn't seem to affect the quality of the stuff being recorded!

Cheers

Paul

[ralpht]

A studio getting a few hits under it's belt never hurt either. Producers can be superstitious and like recording in a hit producing Studio. I saw that happen with Tera Shirma when Clay McMurray got a hit, "Stand By Me", with Spyder Turner. Because of that one record, TS began to light up.

[Sotosound]

Nothing really changed. Just a more up to date studio. Generally, tracks were cut in Studio A and strings and horns in Studio B, usually separately. Vocals were done in both studios.. This process was not exclusive to Motown. It was pretty much standard procedure in all studios. I once convinced Frank Wilson to use Studio B, when he was hot to record, and Studio A was not available. Even though he was satisfied with the track he cut, he would never again use Studio B, opting for the reputation and history of Studio A.

Am I right in thinking that Studio B sounded different to Studio A?

[ralpht]

Soto, all studios have individual characteristics But I would say Motown's studios were pretty well balanced. Like I mentioned, Frank Wilson was happy with the rhythm date he did at Studio B, he just wasn't that comfortable in B.

The Studios in Motown L.A. got the royal treatment and all three rooms were made to be identical in sound and equipment. This enabled producers to use whatever room was available for their time frame and switch studios if need be,

[Sotosound]

Soto, all studios have individual characteristics But I would say Motown's studios were pretty well balanced. Like I mentioned, Frank Wilson was happy with the rhythm date he did at Studio B, he just wasn't that comfortable in B.

The Studios in Motown L.A. got the royal treatment and all three rooms were made to be identical in sound and equipment. This enabled producers to use whatever room was available for their time frame and switch studios if need be,

Many thanks for the info.