DRATS & Temps Enhanced from Sullivan

[zani57]

Added to "Ed Sullivan Show" YouTube channel on June 20 --

[marv2]

I remember this particular appearance got talked about a lot in school the next morning.

[detmotownguy]

Added to "Ed Sullivan Show" YouTube channel on June 20 --

Mary and Cindy were dancing up a storm on “Losing You”. I have always wondered how much Rehearsal time is involved for something like this? David had an incredible voice. Thanks for posting.

[nathanj06]

I always enjoyed this performance. Ahh, the days of superior talent...It wasn't long after this that David was gone I think?

[captainjames]

One of the best things Motown finally did was to pair the two groups up.

[RanRan79]

One of the best things Motown finally did was to pair the two groups up.

There was also their appearance on Mike Douglas together in 1966, but I think their performance together was more impromptu than an elaborately put together act, such as this Sullivan performance and the television specials. But I agree, absolutely fantastic decision.

[DWSheffer]

I was so glad to see this one enhanced and I added it to my favorites before the video even started! I just love to watch Diana groove in this performance and her head movements, which are only accentuated by the large wig, which is among my overall favorite looks for Miss Ross.
Darin

[Soulmusic4life]

David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.

[marv2]

David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.

He was vocally murdering her. She complained about it at rehearsal.

[SatansBlues]

Two of the Greatest Groups of All Time.

[monicarivers]

David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.

Riveting. Like anyone with two ears and a brain wouldn’t have acknowledged the fact that David Ruffin had a more powerful, soulful voice than Diana Ross. Next week, please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom and let us know that Earth is larger than Mars.

[luke]

Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

[marv2]

Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

He was, but Diana was upset that he was singing circles around her and went to Mr. Gordy to have the key raised.

[Roberta75]

Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

Asked with the innocence of Shirley Temple. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Ollie9]

Asked with the innocence of Shirley Temple. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

That’s a good one Roberta. Thank you for helping me start the day with a chuckle . Beautiful day here in the UK.

[Roberta75]

That’s a good one Roberta. Thank you for helping me start the day with a chuckle . Beautiful day here in the UK.

Enjoy your day dear Ollie.

Fondly,

Roberta

[Ollie9]

Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

[lucky2012]

So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.

[jobucats]

I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.

I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.

[RanRan79]

I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.

I'll add to this, that another component of the gossip are the books that have been released over the last 35 or so years. As soon as a book publishes a story, some fans commit it to memory and repeat as though it's scripture. It would be interesting if we had the ability to remix history and see how differently a forum such as this plays out without information culled from gossipy books having been available.

Of course that probably still wouldn't stop certain people who's great aunt's neighbor was the postman for somebody else's cousin who's boyfriend's grandfather used to cut the hair of the nephew of a woman who once heard Diana Ross tell Mary Wilson to shut up.

[sup_fan]

I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.

i'm not quite so sure about this legend either.

both the temps and four tops were recorded in keys that made the male lead vocalist [[both David and Levi are baritones) strain into the upper reaches of their range. the upper reaches of a baritone are right in line with an alto female singer.

When the musical arrangers pulled this medley together, odds are they would NOT have significantly changed the keys of each tune from the original. So these would be perfectly within Diana's range.

plus you REALLY think the musical arrangers at motown [[ie Maurice King) wouldn't have know what keys Diana sounds good in? and wouldn't said musical arranger frankly be more focused on Diana than any of the others, seeing as how that was the typical way of things at motown?

now i COULD imagine that there were various little prima donna moments from both Diana and David. probably Eddie too. they all had huge egos. so someone might not have liked one bit of staging and someone else felt another singer had too many more measure of song to sing, etc etc.

[Ollie9]

I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.

Agree. Having said, i would still like to know if the incident did happen. Its all part of Motown history after all.
If indeed it did, then i don’t really blame Diana at all. If I had the clout and a key change was going to make me sound a lot better i would probably have done the exact same thing. In a nice a way as possible....of course.

[RanRan79]

Agree. Having said, i would still like to know if the incident did happen. Its all part of Motown history after all.
If indeed it did, then i don’t really blame Diana at all. If I had the clout and a key change was going to make me sound a lot better i would probably have done the exact same thing. In a nice a way as possible....of course.

I find the story questionable. Why would Motown send it's two biggest acts onto one of the most popular shows of the time and allow either one to come across as inferior? Again, I think this is a JRT book story, as I can't recall seeing it documented anywhere else. It makes more sense that a key was found that complimented Diana and David, a key which was probably a little lower for her and a little higher for him. The fact that neither singer sounds any better or worse than they normally do squashes the conspiracy theory in my mind.

[RanRan79]

So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

I agree. They both sound fantastic. I really hate that David was fired before the Join sessions took place. I would've loved to hear how he and Diana sounded in the studio.

[TheMotownManiac]

So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

well I will never understand about this legend is this, I think everyone will admit that David Ruffin is doing a great job in the Medley in the key that it is in. If that is acknowledged by all as it seems to be here, what purpose would there be to have a medley in a lower key that he could sing in and diana could not? Are some of you suggesting that this television appearance would’ve been better served if the key were lower than one Diana could vocalize in?

David had two or three minutes on this show singing, Diana had the whole medley, green sleeves, thou swell, plus in and out of love. Miss Ross had things to do that day! Singing in the wrong key with David Ruffin was not going to be one of them.

this is another whiny, bitchy, flimsy piece of idiocy prattled on by those who are so quick to judge and shame, they don’t think of the practical reason for the key change. Evidently Otis felt that a key serving both was not preferable. It’s so childish. I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor, or how mean mean mean Diana was to accuse Mary of stealing the prize money and then spending freely at the amusement park after.

[Ollie9]

well I will never understand about this legend is this, I think everyone will admit that David Ruffin is doing a great job in the Medley in the key that it is in. If that is acknowledged by all as it seems to be here, what purpose would there be to have a medley in a lower key that he could sing in and diana could not? Are some of you suggesting that this television appearance would’ve been better served if the key were lower than one Diana could vocalize in?

David had two or three minutes on this show singing, Diana had the whole medley, green sleeves, thou swell, plus in and out of love. Miss Ross had things to do that day! Singing in the wrong key with David Ruffin was not going to be one of them.

this is another whiny, bitchy, flimsy piece of idiocy prattled on by those who are so quick to judge and shame, they don’t think of the practical reason for the key change. Evidently Otis felt that a key serving both was not preferable. It’s so childish. I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor, or how mean mean mean Diana was to accuse Mary of stealing the prize money and then spending freely at the amusement park after.

I was really not aware anyone was suggesting anything. I’ve repeatedly mentioned I think both singers do a great job so find it strange you attach this to my post.
As far as I can make out the thread is merely a discussion about an incident that according to a least one original Temptation actually happened. Whether one chooses to believe it or not or considers it a complete irrelevance is most certainly personal choice. For me personally it’s no big a deal. Are you saying Otis made the whole thing up to be nasty?. Perhaps if he had written Diana spent an hour after the show distributing funds to the sick and needy it might be more readily accepted??.
Im a little confused here.

[TheMotownManiac]

I was really not aware anyone was suggesting anything. I’ve repeatedly mentioned I think both singers do a great job so find it strange you attach this to my post.
As far as I can make out the thread is merely a discussion about an incident that according to a least one original Temptation actually happened. Whether one chooses to believe it or not or considers it a complete irrelevance is most certainly personal choice. For me personally it’s no big a deal. Are you saying Otis made the whole thing up to be nasty?. Perhaps if he had written Diana spent an hour after the show distributing funds to the sick and needy it might be more readily accepted??.
Im a little confused here.

I have no reason to think it’s not true, but I know that if it was in a lower key, Diana would’ve had trouble with the verse if I’m losing you because it’s already low for her… Not low necessarily I guess but on the lower side of her comfort range.

my problem with this story is because it is mentioned to imply that David Ruffin was making diana ross look bad and so she wanted to change that, and that it is implying a selfish diva behavior that a few children on this board are rolling around like pigs in shit in. The fact is that the key used is one that both sound good in, and as such, I can’t even understand why Otis Williams or anyone would bother to say we change the keys to the both lead singers could sing in it. There’s no story there. There’s no reason to mention a key change for musical groups that deal with musical charts every single day for years and years and years. It’s as common place as yes if he had said “diana dropped a bobby pin in the dressing room. “Only this particular chart is mentioned in Otis’ book or any of the books And it is to throw shade. It’s a desperate attempt to get a little Diana dirt into any book because that’s what sells the books. If dream girl had made diana ross look like a sand, it probably would’ve done half the business it did more like supreme faith.

At the time, clearly, the biggest star on that stage that night was diana ross. Her group has sold twice as many records as the Temptations, five times as many concert tickets and currently have the number one album in the country. More people were tuning in to see her than anyone else if we’re going to start putting people against each other. It would make sense to have things in her key even if it didn’t work out for the other person.

The folks that are saying that David is singing circles around diana ross I don’t agree with. He is the great David Ruffin and I bow down to him, but he is to soul music as diana ross is to pop music and comparing the two is absurd. You’re not comparing apples and apples so why bother? Compare Diana to Petula Or Cher or other pop divas of the day - not Mahalia Jackson. Manny Manny Manny Manny people that day, I did not appreciate the sound of Mahalia Jackson, would have sent ross saying circles around her. It’s all about where your focus is. But folks try to throw shade, use these Donald Trumpian Comparatives to prove a point that Actually cannot be made.

[RanRan79]

I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor,

I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

[blackguy69]

Sometimes life is more stranger than fiction.

I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

[sup_fan]

I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

i agree that some of the stories in Mary's book frankly come off a little petty. i mean - seriously!! who's gonna bring up something as trivial as who slept on what surface in 1959?!?! and bringing it up 25 years later. they were young kids - all pre-teens do idiotic things

if mary's goal was to paint diana as a conniving scheming bitch, she should have focused on more specifics that occurred within the group. not ordering pizza late at night or arriving at an interview with snazzy earrings and outfit.

[TheMotownManiac]

I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

HA! I just had my first, true LOL today - thank you for that.

In Mary’s books, she doesn’t mention much about having friends prior to the group. It’s very possible that diana ross was her very first close friend, and I could see where as Diana grew into adulthood and changed and moved away from Mary some white that Mary had might have felt like a jilted lover. She’s certainly writes like one. I have never read an autobiography that has so much Information… Personal information about other people who are not the subject matter. And I imagine that diana ross at any age was quite a handful no matter how you look at it - but that same whatever it is, is what put the group over.

[gman]

David just out a out SLAYED that Baby Baby I'm A-WHERE lyric!...and he looks almost as skinny as Diana.

[monicarivers]

David just out a out SLAYED that Baby Baby I'm A-WHERE lyric!...and he looks almost as skinny as Diana.

I love David’s voice - not as much as Eddie [[I’m a falsetto kinda gal) but the misogynists around here give him a hall pass for his drug addiction and abusive behavior. Meanwhile, we’re still slamming Diana for getting a DUI twenty years ago. Look who’s still standing.

[Soulmusic4life]

Riveting. Like anyone with two ears and a brain wouldn’t have acknowledged the fact that David Ruffin had a more powerful, soulful voice than Diana Ross. Next week, please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom and let us know that Earth is larger than Mars.

Whatever. Go piss off asshole

[captainjames]

Again, I applaud Motown for putting these two groups together finally. I think both groups benefited regarding the fan base who surrounded the groups. Also, with everything that was going in the 60's they kind of knocked down doors with this.

[sup_fan]

the only indepth info on the Temps is Otis' book. at least that i'm aware of. of course you can pull out Deliver Us From Temptation by Miss Tonita Turner lolol. that's another source, so to speak lol

otis doesn't mention this at all in his book

[marv2]

This appearance aired on Easter or around Easter that year I recall.

[marv2]

This is not the Supremes and Temptations first television appearance together despite what Ed Sullivan said. They appeared together on The Mike Douglas Show together a few years earlier.

[khansperac]

To my ears Eddie, David, and Diana are singing in the same keys they always did. They literally sound like they always did.

[zani57]

The article below from The Detroit Free Press explains why all of these videos are re-surfacing again now. For that person who said that they are not enhanced, the video quality looks much better to me than what I have seen in other formats --

https://amp.freep.com/amp/5338761002

[marv2]

The article below from The Detroit Free Press explains why all of these videos are re-surfacing again now. For that person who said that they are not enhanced, the video quality looks much better to me than what I have seen in other formats --

https://amp.freep.com/amp/5338761002

Great article. We were one of those families that watched it every Sunday night. Thanks Zani57!

[khansperac]

What key does David usually sing in, and what key is he singing here? Is it a major difference?

[sup_fan]

but it's very one-sided. Mary doesn't acknowledge any idiot things she did as a teen. and her books fails to highlight the many positive things Diana did to accelerate the group's career. That Diana was willing to do spend MUCH more time in the studio than mary or flo, that diana worked tirelessly to perfect her components of the stage show, etc.

yet every little slight diana committed to mary, flo and/or cindy seems to be present in the books

[blackguy69]

Its her book so what were you expecting? As far as the studio. That can be a positive and a negative. It would show she will work hard but on the flip side it shows that they wouldn’t be bothered having Mary and Flo coming into the studio.

but it's very one-sided. Mary doesn't acknowledge any idiot things she did as a teen. and her books fails to highlight the many positive things Diana did to accelerate the group's career. That Diana was willing to do spend MUCH more time in the studio than mary or flo, that diana worked tirelessly to perfect her components of the stage show, etc.

yet every little slight diana committed to mary, flo and/or cindy seems to be present in the books

[RanRan79]

Its her book so what were you expecting? As far as the studio. That can be a positive and a negative. It would show she will work hard but on the flip side it shows that they wouldn’t be bothered having Mary and Flo coming into the studio.

Yeah it's her book, so I think somebody like me was expecting her to write about, oh I don't know, herself.

I do agree about the studio. I don't think Diana was willing to spend any more time in the studio than Flo or Mary. The producers decided who they wanted to sing lead and they recorded the lead singer. Sure, most of the time they wanted the actual Supremes to sing backup, and apparently that's what they got. But one has to wonder how demoralizing it was when Flo and/or Mary would discover they weren't on a track, for whatever reason. [[And yet still being charged for the studio time.) I can imagine at a certain point there wasn't always an incentive to do as they were told. Can you imagine how Diana's work ethic might have suffered if she started finding out her leads were replaced with Flo or Mary? Yikes.

Even the Christmas album debacle is a bit strange. Diana says she recorded the album all by herself while Flo and Mary went on a break, but Flo and Mary recorded leads for the album during the same time Diana was laying down leads, so something doesn't make sense.

[sup_fan]

Yeah it's her book, so I think somebody like me was expecting her to write about, oh I don't know, herself.

I do agree about the studio. I don't think Diana was willing to spend any more time in the studio than Flo or Mary. The producers decided who they wanted to sing lead and they recorded the lead singer. Sure, most of the time they wanted the actual Supremes to sing backup, and apparently that's what they got. But one has to wonder how demoralizing it was when Flo and/or Mary would discover they weren't on a track, for whatever reason. [[And yet still being charged for the studio time.) I can imagine at a certain point there wasn't always an incentive to do as they were told. Can you imagine how Diana's work ethic might have suffered if she started finding out her leads were replaced with Flo or Mary? Yikes.

Even the Christmas album debacle is a bit strange. Diana says she recorded the album all by herself while Flo and Mary went on a break, but Flo and Mary recorded leads for the album during the same time Diana was laying down leads, so something doesn't make sense.

in my timeline work, i've listed out the session dates for the Xmas lp. It isn't as if the girls dedicated weeks and weeks to rehearsal, studio time, experimentation. it really was a factory assembly line. when their part was needed, they got into the studio. that was it. because everything was recorded separately, it seems they would have blocks of time for lead vocals and blocks for background. plus all of the other musicians. i doubt the producers often had the entire band and orchestra all there. they'd record the funk bros, then set time to record strings, then start layering it all together, then decide they needed more strings or revised backing vocals or a harmonica or more ooomph on the percussion, or whatever. so all of these would have had separate recording times

then add in all of the different producers - HDH, mickey stevenson, smokey, norman, clarence paul, berry and many many others.

an act or two would be off the road and available. obviously that had to take precedent for recording session prioritization. get diana or martha or levi or whomever into that studio and crank out as much stuff as you can. then all of those others i just mentioned had to be scheduled around that. I think that's why the A's were used on the Supremes stuff. given the volume of content being recorded, there's just no way to manage that PLUS all of the public appearances and performances.

[RanRan79]

but it's very one-sided. Mary doesn't acknowledge any idiot things she did as a teen. and her books fails to highlight the many positive things Diana did to accelerate the group's career. That Diana was willing to do spend MUCH more time in the studio than mary or flo, that diana worked tirelessly to perfect her components of the stage show, etc.

yet every little slight diana committed to mary, flo and/or cindy seems to be present in the books

Yes!! I've been saying this all along. We get all these stories about bad, mean Diana, but not about Mary. Even the story Mary writes about Diana accusing Brenda Holloway of stealing her shoes or a hairspray or a brush or something stupid [[although stealing shoes isn't something stupid, that's pretty serious), Mary's story is all Diana. Mean Diane went off on this little girl and then turned out to be wrong about whatever it was. Yet when Brenda tells the story, Mary is right behind Diana egging it on.

We get almost a crash course in Diana's love life. Meanwhile Mary's love life gets mostly a paragraph 200 pages apart. There's no way Mary could avoid writing about Diana and Berry because of it's impact on the group. The passages about that relationship are fair game. But the story about Diana and the white guy from DC, Diana and Brian Holland, even Diana and the football player she was apparently seeing briefly in the late 60s, this was necessary because...?

Mary's life appears to me to be far more interesting than some are willing to give credit for. It's a pity we get very little of it in her first book because of the choice to focus on Diana, and to a lesser extent Florence.

[blackguy69]

Actually all of us in here are being Very judgmental in regards to the girls lives on and off the stage. None of us were on the road with them or in their lives 24/7 when these events occurred. The girls are the only ones that truly know what really happened and of course they will spin it to their favor. All second and third hand stories are just that , rehashed stories with something added or left off. Always remember 5 of us can see an incident and give 5 different stories on what happened. Doesn’t mean they’re lying , it just means they saw it from their angle.

[RanRan79]

Actually all of us in here are being Very judgmental in regards to the girls lives on and off the stage. None of us were on the road with them or in their lives 24/7 when these events occurred. The girls are the only ones that truly know what really happened and of course they will spin it to their favor. All second and third hand stories are just that , rehashed stories with something added or left off. Always remember 5 of us can see an incident and give 5 different stories on what happened. Doesn’t mean they’re lying , it just means they saw it from their angle.

True, but if you put a story out there, you gotta expect for people to formulate thoughts and opinions. Mary wrote a book because she wanted her version of the story out there. It's impossible to read a book and not form an opinion. At least I think it's impossible. I can only speak for myself, but I do think I'm being a bit judgmental with my criticism of Mary not speaking up about the couch. While Flo was probably the type to say something, Mary hasn't always proven to be someone willing to speak up for herself or others. That's life. But my opinion about the story remains the same. While I don't think Dreamgirl was as harsh on Diana as some fans seem to think, it's clear this book was supposed to be more or less a hatchet job on the woman Mary once turned to for help when no one else would, and then IMO, ushered in the nonsense we see in this forum between those who worship at the feet of Mary and those who worship at the feet of Diana.

[sup_fan]

Actually all of us in here are being Very judgmental in regards to the girls lives on and off the stage. None of us were on the road with them or in their lives 24/7 when these events occurred. The girls are the only ones that truly know what really happened and of course they will spin it to their favor. All second and third hand stories are just that , rehashed stories with something added or left off. Always remember 5 of us can see an incident and give 5 different stories on what happened. Doesn’t mean they’re lying , it just means they saw it from their angle.

i completely agree! well said

and you're right about mary's book. of course she wasn't going to include much that might put her in a negative light.

there were stories from Gil that were wonderfully balanced about the girls and how both mary and diana were really, really anguished over Flo's decline. both really wanted to help and tried to keep things together.

I guess Diana finally said "look - we've tried and enough is enough. this isn't working." seems that mary was in agreement with that.