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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by cornybside View Post
    Do you have a link or copy of this statement that was made by SFX? Just curious, as this is news to me. Furthermore, I've always been under the impression that Diana has been self-financing her tours since 2002 and has not worked with any promoters, with the exception of AEG for her Vegas shows? What shows were SFX involved in? When she returned to the stage, that was in 2002/2003, and those were much smaller shows, some of which ended up being cancelled for health reasons.
    a) I do have a copy of the statement in a box somewhere with all my Supremes and ross clippings and I will try to find it online. It was not treated as a huge headline like the others.
    b)I do not have specific dates that SFX did, but there are probably posters existing. SFX is now Live Nation and they do a lot of her shows.
    c) I’m sure she does finance her own shows, but most major venues work through AEG or Live Nation as contracted promoters for various venues.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by cornybside View Post
    Could you share with us the dozens of music articles that you are referencing, that support that these shows were not cancelled by the promoter? I like looking at facts to support claims. I've heard differently from others. For example, someone I know attended the Houston show and confirmed that the attendance was poor, so much so, that he was allowed to sit significantly closer to the stage compared to his originally purchased seat. This is why I like to look at substantiated facts with support from articles, as otherwise, all of these conflicting reports become a he-said, she-said, hearsay mess.

    Marv isn't wrong and I don't think he was lying about the 3,000 seats out of 19,000 seats being sold at the Columbus date, as this article from the LA Times states that very fact. Maybe they got the seating capacity of the venue wrong:

    "And some nights the audience was closer in number to 10 than 10,000. In Columbus, Ohio, for example, only 3,000 of 19,000 seats were sold, while a Tampa, Fla., show filled only 5,000 of 20,000 seats. In the past week, shows in Long Island, N.Y., Washington and Pittsburgh were canceled without specific explanation from the lead promoter, SFX Entertainment, which prompted the Ross statement."

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...281-story.html
    a) I love dealing with facts so good for you to ask for them. in this case, it IS he said-she said because neither would admit to cancelling the tour. ross insisted it was SFX, but tickets remained on sale in every city until the day or two before. In the article you provided, Ross says the tour is cancelled, SFX says it isn’t which is what I was saying. I’m having trouble finding specific cities 20 years later, but here are two more articles from Billboard re-iterating SFX Only cancelled the 3 dates.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=1x...page&q&f=false
    https://books.google.com/books?id=1x...page&q&f=false


    b)Many venues consolidated the seating for appearance and frugality. Upper bowl seats were re-assigned to lower bowl seating upon arrival to alleviate the need for security and ushers in the upper third or half of the bowl. However, no tour is financed on the assurance of a sellout and, as one article stated, 8,000 seats was great and profitable.

  3. #53
    Interesting "Return to Love" ...Twenty years later.
    If you missed it,,,,,,,you missed a helluva show. They looked and sounded good !!!
    As far as my feelings regarding Cindy I wish she could have done it because the money would have helped her I believe.

    Only from what I have read Mary and Diana were not really good ole friends in 2000 so in my opinion it is good it didn't happen with Mary on the tour. I think it would have been destructive and there could have been another book.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by cornybside View Post
    Could you share with us the dozens of music articles that you are referencing, that support that these shows were not cancelled by the promoter? I like looking at facts to support claims. I've heard differently from others. For example, someone I know attended the Houston show and confirmed that the attendance was poor, so much so, that he was allowed to sit significantly closer to the stage compared to his originally purchased seat. This is why I like to look at substantiated facts with support from articles, as otherwise, all of these conflicting reports become a he-said, she-said, hearsay mess.

    Marv isn't wrong and I don't think he was lying about the 3,000 seats out of 19,000 seats being sold at the Columbus date, as this article from the LA Times states that very fact. Maybe they got the seating capacity of the venue wrong:

    "And some nights the audience was closer in number to 10 than 10,000. In Columbus, Ohio, for example, only 3,000 of 19,000 seats were sold, while a Tampa, Fla., show filled only 5,000 of 20,000 seats. In the past week, shows in Long Island, N.Y., Washington and Pittsburgh were canceled without specific explanation from the lead promoter, SFX Entertainment, which prompted the Ross statement."

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...281-story.html
    Quote Originally Posted by cornybside View Post
    Could you share with us the dozens of music articles that you are referencing, that support that these shows were not cancelled by the promoter? I like looking at facts to support claims. I've heard differently from others. For example, someone I know attended the Houston show and confirmed that the attendance was poor, so much so, that he was allowed to sit significantly closer to the stage compared to his originally purchased seat. This is why I like to look at substantiated facts with support from articles, as otherwise, all of these conflicting reports become a he-said, she-said, hearsay mess.

    Marv isn't wrong and I don't think he was lying about the 3,000 seats out of 19,000 seats being sold at the Columbus date, as this article from the LA Times states that very fact. Maybe they got the seating capacity of the venue wrong:

    "And some nights the audience was closer in number to 10 than 10,000. In Columbus, Ohio, for example, only 3,000 of 19,000 seats were sold, while a Tampa, Fla., show filled only 5,000 of 20,000 seats. In the past week, shows in Long Island, N.Y., Washington and Pittsburgh were canceled without specific explanation from the lead promoter, SFX Entertainment, which prompted the Ross statement."

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...281-story.html
    the seating capacity for the end stage at Value City was 13,600 which was posted in the glowing review the show got. We almost went to it, but didn’t. We were hoping for gold star seats but there weren’t any.

    It’s hard to come up with articles that are 20 years old when anything about tour cancellation is pandemic related. Each city remained on sale until like 36 hours before, and THEN SFX cancelled them. From everything I’ve read, and folks I spoke to, the way this played out was unprecedented. I had wormed my way into knowing some folks at the St Louis arena - now Scottrade Arena - to try to get front row seats which didn’t happen. However, they said the show was a definite go despite the 3 cancellations, subsequent cancellations and Ross saying the tour was over. They were assured by SFX the tour would resume by the ST Louis date and all the catering and hotel arrangements were firm. We were thrilled because it was my old stomping ground and I had lots of buds going. When it got cancelled last minute, there was unpleasantness with the arena and SFX. They told me later what others told me: SFX broke the contract when Jones beach did not play due to their announcement. Hence, there was no longer a binding contract but there was an obligation to pay Ross and the talent regardless. Some say they all got full payment, some say Ross only got to keep the seed money for the unplayed shows plus her percentages for cancelled gigs that sold over whatever agreed amount was but no initial salary. Scherrie and Lynda got paid. The band was paid. Dancers were paid. Lynda said In Toronto that TNT wanted Ross to scale back the show by 50 % but she refused to put so many out of work. Shceerie told me personally that Ross was pleased over 100 people were on the payroll.

    ‘’there was a lot of sensational journalism going on here. Very few of the articles mentioned the shows that did well or that Madison Square Garden sold out because it made for a better read without that information. Marv knows this.

    anyway, it’s a fascinating story in the annals of the concert industry.
    I think Lynda was trying to point out the absurdity of suggesting Ross’ salary was 20 million when the entire tour may not have grossed that much. Again, it was a lie, but it was a good read. I think lynda also was referring to the burned bridges Mary set ablaze during this time. Now, Mary could really use the bucks but will never get a gig with Ross again.
    don’t let pics trick you into thinking all is well. I’m told that both Scherrie and Lynda are not happy with Mary.

    I will look for the articles sometime soon, but a long, drawn out google search in each city might net results and the SFX statement.

  5. #55
    Just a thought ..
    When Fleetwood Mac fired Lindsay ......
    A few years ago...,they never got the kind of PR lash that Ross got during RTL.
    But over the years the media wants to bash Ross. Wonder why.
    Also funny ..it seems ..other ladies are on good terms with Diana. But one.

  6. #56
    Someone pass me the (buttered) popcorn..

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    Just a thought ..
    When Fleetwood Mac fired Lindsay ......
    A few years ago...,they never got the kind of PR lash that Ross got during RTL.
    But over the years the media wants to bash Ross. Wonder why.
    Also funny ..it seems ..other ladies are on good terms with Diana. But one.
    Mary laid the groundwork with her one-sided, vindictive-but-delicious Dreamgirl. She why painted herself a secondary Florence so that they could both be victims of diana ross yet, make mary appear like she is standing up for Florence instead of using her to sell books, lie about sharing royalties with Flo’s kids and ruthlessly besmirch Diana. The thing is I am sure that, especially in the 60s, diana ross could be very hard to deal with. She didn’t, of course, say anything about her emotional condition or abuse by Berry - that would gave been counterproductive. So, the world was presented with a heartless, scheming, ego-maniacle, power hungry monster who would do anything to step on others to gain fane. There’s no mention of Berry believing hook, line and sinker in her potential, work ethic, talent or, that I can think of, anything positive. Very fertile ground for a lifetime of bashing.

  8. #58
    Are we gonna keep rehashing this every few years? That horse is beyond dead , it’s dog food. Let it go

  9. #59
    Along with two friends, I attended the opening concert of RTL in Philadelphia.The show was phenomenal! This production was like a Broadway Show! Diana, Lynda and Scherrie blended seamlessly. The highlight of the show: "Reach Out, I'll Be There"! The opening screen montage to "Reflections" was a visual and audio spectacular. The orchestra had the Philadelphia Soul Club vibe added to the Motown Groove. It was if every song had the production value of Diana Ross' Ain't No Mountain High Enough"! The audience really took this show up another level and reviews by the critics were "Great Show"! I was making plans to travel to another city to see the show when it was cancelled. When tickets sales started to slow, someone in management should have renegotiated Lynda and Scherie performance contracts. Just adding Mary and Cindy to the show, would have saved the final leg of the show. After all, this is show business.
    Trivia: I believe the rehearsals for this show were in Trenton, NJ, at The War Memorial Stadium. Who was the fantastic musical conductor of this show? It definitely had a Broadway vibe.

  10. #60
    I'm a fan of all the Supremes' members and have enjoyed the music and performances of all the different lineups. I saw the Columbus RTL show and it was great! It's the only live Supremes/Diana Ross show I've had the opportunity to see so it was especially great for me. Probably the best thing about it was that I got to hear live versions of songs Diana Ross rarely/ never performs, like "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone," "I Hear A Symphony," "When The Lovelight Starts...", and "Back In My Arms Again," to name a few. Other highlights were "My World Is Empty Without You," "Love Is Like An Itchin' In My Heart," and "Love Child," not to mention the opening, "Reflections." And I agree with TNSUN regarding a highlight being "Reach Out, I'll Be There." These are songs we'll likely never hear live again so I'm glad I got to be there. Of course, it would have been amazing to see Mary and Cindy on the tour, but Scherrie and Lynda did a nice job. I really enjoyed the concert.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TNSUN View Post
    Trivia: I believe the rehearsals for this show were in Trenton, NJ, at The War Memorial Stadium. Who was the fantastic musical conductor of this show? It definitely had a Broadway vibe.
    I saw the show in Atlanta, and it was indeed spectacular. My only faults were that it was too polished with the Broadway show vibe TNSUN mentioned: and there was an ensemble of background singers singing background with Sherrie and Lynda.

    My "degree of separation" is that for the first few minutes of the show a lady sat beside me who said she was the conductor's wife. Maybe she left because another 'more appropriate' seat was found for her.

  12. #62
    there's plenty of blame to go around with the RTL debacle.

    Mary - she's more than proven she knows how to make endless stupid business decisions. and this is one of them. From a financial perspective, she'd have made a ton for herself with this tour and then whatever subsequent opportunities would arise. she'd have made far more than what she could ever hope to pull in with her solo shows.

    Mary - if she felt the tour wasn't been done how she liked or wished, why didn't she simply decline to participate and end of story? she'd just as culpable in the demise of the Supremes' legacy with her behavior regarding this. She herself is quoted as saying 'part of the Supremes' magic was making all problems and bitterness end the moment we hit the stage.' She herself has been mostly responsible for the lasting legacy of the group. She has worked for decades to make sure the Supremes are not forgotten and then she simply fucks the whole legacy

    Diana - clearly she's in the higher position here, the upper hand. she had the pull and power so if she really wanted to do this right, she could have. she hid behind the "first work it out with the producers - i can't control what they say or do." bull shit. your're fucking MISS DIANA ROSS. of course you can step in.

    Diana - she herself has acknowledged Mary's role in preserving the Supremes legacy. so do so some sort of reunion tour, she should have been more cooperative with bringing Mary into the planning and decisions. to simply say "hey Mary - we'll pay you a couple million to stand on stage, sway and wear a pretty gown" is insulting to all of the work Mary has done.

    Diana - once the shit hit the fan with Mary, she should have simply dropped the idea of bringing in former Sups. She could have easily just gone on tour, sing the songs and made money. it's great that the promoters and Diana wanted to do a bigger focus on the old songs and try to faithfully recreate them. but she didn't need Scherrie and Lynda for that. and you certainly wouldn't have needed a crystal ball to predict that backlash

  13. #63

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Are we gonna keep rehashing this every few years? That horse is beyond dead , it’s dog food. Let it go
    Think I'll go pretend I'm 25 and dance to All Right Now by Patti LaBelle.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by nathanj06 View Post
    Not wanting to respond to this for the umpteenth time, I had to. What a bunch of complete crap. Lynda Laurence and Scherrie Payne both should have known better than to participate in something as monumental as this tour or what could have been. What hypocrites. They have both been tarnished permanently in my mind but I do hold a good place for Scherrie. I think they were caught up "in a moment", and as Lynda said about Mary, she herself did not understand the business of "show" business. Berry Gordy, at least from what I read, told Diana not to do it without Mary and Cindy. He was correct. Diana, thinking out of her ass again as she had many times throughout her career, CHOSE to do it anyway. If all were alive, why not bring back The Beatles without Ringo and George and bring in Jimmy Nicol and Stuart Sutcliffe? Once the negotiations faltered, I knew it would be a total disaster. Don't blame Mary. She stood up for herself. Lynda is as delusional as a Trump aide and probably besties with Omarosa. For a woman so hell bent on shading Mary, and a very short term member who attempted to make a career out of "having been" a member of The Supremes for 5 minutes, she should really go home along with this subject. There is and always will be camps for different members as foolish as it is. This is another pot calling the kettle black. No, I never liked Laurence. Scherrie should have just pursued her own solo career, her play writing and so forth. Instead they all used The Supremes name to try to further themselves which in itself is disgusting but especially Miss Lynda Laurence whose only claim to fame is a back up singer. An opportunist out to make a $$$ at anyone's expense. To bring this up 20 years later is just as pathetic as it began back then. It backfired big time and it was Ross' own doing. Not Mary Wilson's. Some of you really need to get a grip, let alone some semblance of a life instead of living in some fantasy land about The Supremes. Good gawd!!! Attn: Ralph, Get rid of this crap including mine.
    You’re right: if you don’t want to discuss something, no one should be able to.

  15. #65
    the fact remains that all of the women that were formally in the Supremes are just that - former members. Scherrie and Lynda using their association with the group is completely justified. They toured with the group, did tv appearances, recorded. If you start trying to measure one member's impact or "worth" versus another, you're going to run into big troubles because Diana is the only one that sang on 12 #1 hits, which is a significant part of the legacy. Now i understand it wasn't exactly mary's decision to NOT be on those songs. Still if you were to itemize out how many songs did each woman sing, Mary would not be at the top by any means. even counting her background vocals. So it's best to just not go there

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there's plenty of blame to go around with the RTL debacle.

    Mary - she's more than proven she knows how to make endless stupid business decisions. and this is one of them. From a financial perspective, she'd have made a ton for herself with this tour and then whatever subsequent opportunities would arise. she'd have made far more than what she could ever hope to pull in with her solo shows.

    Mary - if she felt the tour wasn't been done how she liked or wished, why didn't she simply decline to participate and end of story? she'd just as culpable in the demise of the Supremes' legacy with her behavior regarding this. She herself is quoted as saying 'part of the Supremes' magic was making all problems and bitterness end the moment we hit the stage.' She herself has been mostly responsible for the lasting legacy of the group. She has worked for decades to make sure the Supremes are not forgotten and then she simply fucks the whole legacy

    Diana - clearly she's in the higher position here, the upper hand. she had the pull and power so if she really wanted to do this right, she could have. she hid behind the "first work it out with the producers - i can't control what they say or do." bull shit. your're fucking MISS DIANA ROSS. of course you can step in.

    Diana - she herself has acknowledged Mary's role in preserving the Supremes legacy. so do so some sort of reunion tour, she should have been more cooperative with bringing Mary into the planning and decisions. to simply say "hey Mary - we'll pay you a couple million to stand on stage, sway and wear a pretty gown" is insulting to all of the work Mary has done.

    Diana - once the shit hit the fan with Mary, she should have simply dropped the idea of bringing in former Sups. She could have easily just gone on tour, sing the songs and made money. it's great that the promoters and Diana wanted to do a bigger focus on the old songs and try to faithfully recreate them. but she didn't need Scherrie and Lynda for that. and you certainly wouldn't have needed a crystal ball to predict that backlash
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there's plenty of blame to go around with the RTL debacle.

    Mary - she's more than proven she knows how to make endless stupid business decisions. and this is one of them. From a financial perspective, she'd have made a ton for herself with this tour and then whatever subsequent opportunities would arise. she'd have made far more than what she could ever hope to pull in with her solo shows.

    Mary - if she felt the tour wasn't been done how she liked or wished, why didn't she simply decline to participate and end of story? she'd just as culpable in the demise of the Supremes' legacy with her behavior regarding this. She herself is quoted as saying 'part of the Supremes' magic was making all problems and bitterness end the moment we hit the stage.' She herself has been mostly responsible for the lasting legacy of the group. She has worked for decades to make sure the Supremes are not forgotten and then she simply fucks the whole legacy

    Diana - clearly she's in the higher position here, the upper hand. she had the pull and power so if she really wanted to do this right, she could have. she hid behind the "first work it out with the producers - i can't control what they say or do." bull shit. your're fucking MISS DIANA ROSS. of course you can step in.

    Diana - she herself has acknowledged Mary's role in preserving the Supremes legacy. so do so some sort of reunion tour, she should have been more cooperative with bringing Mary into the planning and decisions. to simply say "hey Mary - we'll pay you a couple million to stand on stage, sway and wear a pretty gown" is insulting to all of the work Mary has done.

    Diana - once the shit hit the fan with Mary, she should have simply dropped the idea of bringing in former Sups. She could have easily just gone on tour, sing the songs and made money. it's great that the promoters and Diana wanted to do a bigger focus on the old songs and try to faithfully recreate them. but she didn't need Scherrie and Lynda for that. and you certainly wouldn't have needed a crystal ball to predict that backlash
    i think if Diana had gone to Mary first and said, “I’m going to do a show with all the Living Supremes that would like to be in it, is that something you are interested in doing? The whole thing might have worked out differently. Not ever mentioning reunion, but more of a tribute show, then maybe Mary wouldn’t of been so bad so about not being involved in the planning, which I understand. However, Mary also knew that diana ross was never going to get over that book. Ever. And Mary knew that more than anybody, so perhaps She should have expected to be a “lesser than” in this. Who knows? I see both of their points.
    what I don’t see is, why can’t Diana Ross do a Supremes gig with whomever she chooses? Mary foisted nobody’s off on an unsuspecting public as Supremes for years and nobody gave a damn. It wasn’t until Mary made a giant issue about it in the press and called the people that Diana was touring with fakes, that the lineup was questioned. If nothing had ever been in the press about mary wilson and from mary wilson before the tour, I don’t think enough people would give a damn if Mary was on the tour or not. The negativity arose from Mary going to the press and lying about how much money ross was getting versus how much money she was getting and telling people that these were fake Supremes making the public feel that diana ross was pulling a fast one on people and trampling over them as well. Ross was working with real, bonafide Supremes - why is that not ok? No one has ever explained the double standard to me. Why should diana ross, the only real star of the Supremes and the only constant voice on all of their iconic records, be forced to tour for someone who trashed her in a book and on radio and television interviews for 4 1/2 years? I really don’t understand that. Why would anyone expect her to want to be On stage with Mary in the first place? And after Florence was gone com, our reunion with Cindy is kind of ridiculous to begin with if you think about it. The iconic supremes are diana Mary and Flo. Why get picky about any other lineup?

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    i think if Diana had gone to Mary first and said, “I’m going to do a show with all the Living Supremes that would like to be in it, is that something you are interested in doing? The whole thing might have worked out differently. Not ever mentioning reunion, but more of a tribute show, then maybe Mary wouldn’t of been so bad so about not being involved in the planning, which I understand. However, Mary also knew that diana ross was never going to get over that book. Ever. And Mary knew that more than anybody, so perhaps She should have expected to be a “lesser than” in this. Who knows? I see both of their points.
    what I don’t see is, why can’t Diana Ross do a Supremes gig with whomever she chooses? Mary foisted nobody’s off on an unsuspecting public as Supremes for years and nobody gave a damn. It wasn’t until Mary made a giant issue about it in the press and called the people that Diana was touring with fakes, that the lineup was questioned. If nothing had ever been in the press about mary wilson and from mary wilson before the tour, I don’t think enough people would give a damn if Mary was on the tour or not. The negativity arose from Mary going to the press and lying about how much money ross was getting versus how much money she was getting and telling people that these were fake Supremes making the public feel that diana ross was pulling a fast one on people and trampling over them as well. Ross was working with real, bonafide Supremes - why is that not ok? No one has ever explained the double standard to me. Why should diana ross, the only real star of the Supremes and the only constant voice on all of their iconic records, be forced to tour for someone who trashed her in a book and on radio and television interviews for 4 1/2 years? I really don’t understand that. Why would anyone expect her to want to be On stage with Mary in the first place? And after Florence was gone com, our reunion with Cindy is kind of ridiculous to begin with if you think about it. The iconic supremes are diana Mary and Flo. Why get picky about any other lineup?
    Thank you MotownManiac. I agree 💯 percent.

  18. #68
    La Lynda has been riding on Mary Wilson's TCB swirl gown train for almost 50 years. She's trash. Period.

  19. #69
    I’m not sure what got Lynda going, but I’m gonna try to find out. That being said, I don’t understand why people are saying she was there for such a short period of time So why should she have an opinion? Her opinion is just as valid as anyone else is I don’t think her duration in the group has anything to do with her opinion or whether she was in the group or never in the group. I do know that both Sherry and Linda truly loved doing the RTL tour and truly enjoyed working with diana Diana ross and I do not believe it’s just because they were making box because they wouldn’t still be talking about it today like that. And I know because I’ve been there and seen it, that both of them bristle When disparaging things are said about Diana that are contrary to their experience and perhaps something like that might’ve set lynda off. Plus, lynda is 100% correct in that if Mary were to own up to and apologize for the ugliness in her book and interviews for so many years, it might smooth things over a little bit so that something could be done together. I think that’s what lynda means when she says Mary does not understand the business. Mary playing games with her $4 million deadline was a stupid thing to do because not only do the cost of the $4 million, it also cost her all the subsequent money that would’ve come our way from the World tour, CD, and subsequent video profits and closing night pay-per-view at the MGM. Mary lost a lot more than $4 million perhaps double triple or four times that. She could’ve just declined the offer and shut up about it, but instead She decided to go on a rampage that hurt all the Supremes financially except diana.

    don’t get me wrong, Mary had every right to write whatever book she wanted to. Even if it was one sided and gave a heavily distorted picture of the group in the 60s. She could’ve told the same story, without being as inflammatory, and giving credit where credit was due as far as Diana goes. Had that been the case, I believe things would’ve been much smoother all the way around during RTL. And now we know just because someone took a picture with someone, doesn’t mean they’re OK.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    La Lynda has been riding on Mary Wilson's TCB swirl gown train for almost 50 years. She's trash. Period.
    Millions of people say the same thing about Mary and diana.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Millions of people say the same thing about Mary and diana.
    Having met several of the former Supremes, I can't say a bad thing about Lynda. She was always very classy, graceful, and complimentary to her former singing partners. I can't say the same for another mentioned in this post who I unfortunately had to share an elevator with once - wouldn't stop talking about herself and even throwing a few jabs at BG.

  22. #72
    With what’s going on in the world these past few days and this topic comes back up again to try and justify who’s right and wrong. None of us were in the room when details were discussed and everyone involved will tell a story slanted in their favor. Everyone has a story and if you read in between the lines and you will get the real story s as nd in the d Ed Nd no one is without blame.

  23. #73
    You saying anything nice about Mary is the equivalent of Marv saying anything nice about Diana.
    Quote Originally Posted by monicarivers View Post
    Having met several of the former Supremes, I can't say a bad thing about Lynda. She was always very classy, graceful, and complimentary to her former singing partners. I can't say the same for another mentioned in this post who I unfortunately had to share an elevator with once - wouldn't stop talking about herself and even throwing a few jabs at BG.

  24. #74
    Just a shame it didn't happen with Mary & Cindy. It would've been great to see them together once more with Diana and perhaps be able to watch a high-quality DVD release of the show.

    If the tour had been a greater success, there might have been a live album and perhaps even a new single.

    Mary could have kept faithful diaries from beginning to end and used them to write 'Return to Love - the inside story' which would have banked her more money after the tour was complete.

    What I've seen of the RTL concerts aren't very impressive, but I guess at least some of that can be blamed on poor video and audio quality.

  25. #75

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    With what’s going on in the world these past few days and this topic comes back up again to try and justify who’s right and wrong. None of us were in the room when details were discussed and everyone involved will tell a story slanted in their favor. Everyone has a story and if you read in between the lines and you will get the real story s as nd in the d Ed Nd no one is without blame.
    A grounded and balanced point of view blackguy.
    In one corner you have the Diana camp blaming Mary. The Mary camp blame Diana. Add to that the Lynda is a complete and utter bitch camp and it appears confusing as to what really did go down. Everyone it seems has their own idol to defend lol.
    Much like you, I believe the answer lies somewhere in between or at the very least slightly off centre.

  26. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    You saying anything nice about Mary is the equivalent of Marv saying anything nice about Diana.
    Not true. Mary is/has been the keeper of the Supremes flame for the last several decades. She is perhaps Motown’s best ambassador. I’ve seen her shows and I think she excels beautifully at slower jazz/R&B sizzlers that are better suited to her voice.

    Like the rest of the world, I wish she had been part of RTL.

  27. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    i think if Diana had gone to Mary first and said, “I’m going to do a show with all the Living Supremes that would like to be in it, is that something you are interested in doing? The whole thing might have worked out differently. Not ever mentioning reunion, but more of a tribute show, then maybe Mary wouldn’t of been so bad so about not being involved in the planning, which I understand. However, Mary also knew that diana ross was never going to get over that book. Ever. And Mary knew that more than anybody, so perhaps She should have expected to be a “lesser than” in this. Who knows? I see both of their points.
    what I don’t see is, why can’t Diana Ross do a Supremes gig with whomever she chooses? Mary foisted nobody’s off on an unsuspecting public as Supremes for years and nobody gave a damn. It wasn’t until Mary made a giant issue about it in the press and called the people that Diana was touring with fakes, that the lineup was questioned. If nothing had ever been in the press about mary wilson and from mary wilson before the tour, I don’t think enough people would give a damn if Mary was on the tour or not. The negativity arose from Mary going to the press and lying about how much money ross was getting versus how much money she was getting and telling people that these were fake Supremes making the public feel that diana ross was pulling a fast one on people and trampling over them as well. Ross was working with real, bonafide Supremes - why is that not ok? No one has ever explained the double standard to me. Why should diana ross, the only real star of the Supremes and the only constant voice on all of their iconic records, be forced to tour for someone who trashed her in a book and on radio and television interviews for 4 1/2 years? I really don’t understand that. Why would anyone expect her to want to be On stage with Mary in the first place? And after Florence was gone com, our reunion with Cindy is kind of ridiculous to begin with if you think about it. The iconic supremes are diana Mary and Flo. Why get picky about any other lineup?
    i completely agree. the ideal way to have initiated this would have been for D and M to sit down and talk. together the two of them could have outlined the overall concept and direction.

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the fact remains that all of the women that were formally in the Supremes are just that - former members. Scherrie and Lynda using their association with the group is completely justified. They toured with the group, did tv appearances, recorded. If you start trying to measure one member's impact or "worth" versus another, you're going to run into big troubles because Diana is the only one that sang on 12 #1 hits, which is a significant part of the legacy. Now i understand it wasn't exactly mary's decision to NOT be on those songs. Still if you were to itemize out how many songs did each woman sing, Mary would not be at the top by any means. even counting her background vocals. So it's best to just not go there
    pmsl... Mary sings on more Supremes songs in 17 years than any member and certainly more than Scherrie and def ‘screecher’ Lynda ... who’s contribution to the group was gone in blink of an eye

  29. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by mwmr View Post
    pmsl... Mary sings on more Supremes songs in 17 years than any member and certainly more than Scherrie and def ‘screecher’ Lynda ... who’s contribution to the group was gone in blink of an eye
    you could be right about Mary - given the 70s recordings. but might not be if you were to count song by song. Diana is one just about every 60s recording. I think the A's backed up Mary on Our Day Will Come and they backed Flo on Silent and O Holy. And the duet version of Can't Take My Eyes - are there any background vocals? can't remember.

    A lot of the earlier 70s material though is Jean and session singers. For instance, Time and Love. And i'm not sure if M and C are also on tracks like Then We Can Try It Again and Is There A Place. M is definitely on all of Floy Joy, Jimmy Webb and all of the Scherrie years.

    But i think there are simply more recordings over the 9 years that DR was in the group

    again, haven't sat to count but i think in terms of recordings (including unreleased) the count would go

    Diana
    Mary
    Flo
    Jean
    Cindy
    Scherrie
    Barbara
    Lynda - 10 tracks on Jimmy (she's not on Once in Morning), BW, Soft Days and I'll wait a lifetime
    Susaye - 8 tracks on MS&S, 4 tracks on HE (HE, Walking and then backing on Till Boat Sails, Don't want to lose you)

  30. #80
    I do believe Diana could have done more to reach out to Mary — because Diana has always had the power and the money. But I don’t believe she’s felt well tested or liked by Mary and so she will only make so much effort - a lot less than she would for Cindy Scherrie or Lynda

    And now Diana’s children will never let her get mixed up with Mary

    And Tracee is a huge star in her own right with a virtual reach far beyond those of her Mom or any other Motown personality

  31. #81
    No backgrounds on the mary/Eddie version.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    you could be right about Mary - given the 70s recordings. but might not be if you were to count song by song. Diana is one just about every 60s recording. I think the A's backed up Mary on Our Day Will Come and they backed Flo on Silent and O Holy. And the duet version of Can't Take My Eyes - are there any background vocals? can't remember.

    A lot of the earlier 70s material though is Jean and session singers. For instance, Time and Love. And i'm not sure if M and C are also on tracks like Then We Can Try It Again and Is There A Place. M is definitely on all of Floy Joy, Jimmy Webb and all of the Scherrie years.

    But i think there are simply more recordings over the 9 years that DR was in the group

    again, haven't sat to count but i think in terms of recordings (including unreleased) the count would go

    Diana
    Mary
    Flo
    Jean
    Cindy
    Scherrie
    Barbara
    Lynda - 10 tracks on Jimmy (she's not on Once in Morning), BW, Soft Days and I'll wait a lifetime
    Susaye - 8 tracks on MS&S, 4 tracks on HE (HE, Walking and then backing on Till Boat Sails, Don't want to lose you)

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    No backgrounds on the mary/Eddie version.
    that's what i thought too. didn't have it here at my desk and was too lazy to get up lolol

    and the solo version - did it have backgrounds? i thought so but can't remember either

  33. #83
    Most of Jean led stuff that didn’t have Mary’s or Cindy’s voices were the unreleased material.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    you could be right about Mary - given the 70s recordings. but might not be if you were to count song by song. Diana is one just about every 60s recording. I think the A's backed up Mary on Our Day Will Come and they backed Flo on Silent and O Holy. And the duet version of Can't Take My Eyes - are there any background vocals? can't remember.

    A lot of the earlier 70s material though is Jean and session singers. For instance, Time and Love. And i'm not sure if M and C are also on tracks like Then We Can Try It Again and Is There A Place. M is definitely on all of Floy Joy, Jimmy Webb and all of the Scherrie years.

    But i think there are simply more recordings over the 9 years that DR was in the group

    again, haven't sat to count but i think in terms of recordings (including unreleased) the count would go

    Diana
    Mary
    Flo
    Jean
    Cindy
    Scherrie
    Barbara
    Lynda - 10 tracks on Jimmy (she's not on Once in Morning), BW, Soft Days and I'll wait a lifetime
    Susaye - 8 tracks on MS&S, 4 tracks on HE (HE, Walking and then backing on Till Boat Sails, Don't want to lose you)

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by monicarivers View Post
    Not true. Mary is/has been the keeper of the Supremes flame for the last several decades. She is perhaps Motown’s best ambassador. I’ve seen her shows and I think she excels beautifully at slower jazz/R&B sizzlers that are better suited to her voice.

    Like the rest of the world, I wish she had been part of RTL.
    i don’t think he reads things with an open mind or he wouldn’t have said that. I’ve been posting all along there was “blame” to go around.

    What has Mary done, exactly, to become the keeper of the flame that Diana or the Flos have not done? I ask because I don’t see it that way. To me, Mary has clung to the Supremes for survival and not as some sort of lifelong mission to preserve The memory of the group. She trashed the memory of the group and both of her books for profit, trying valiantly to get a solo career out of it. She was, at best, a bad sport about RTL causing even more negative public discourse about the group. To millions of people, The Supremes are a group of women who are fighting… Mary has left that legacy. She certainly has, again for profit, curated the dresses and turn them into Living Pop culture history - But again, if there was no money in it for her, she would not have done it. She has continued to sing. supreme songs in her act, as have all former Supremes. Millions more people have seen diana ross singer Supremes songs since 1977 then they have mary wilson. Don’t get me wrong Mary has certainly valiantly kept the name Supremes in the public eye and her limited capacity, But no one has ever pointed out to me what she has done above and beyond with diana or The Flos have done. I’ve posted this question before and never had a response. I believe it is because no one can support the statement.

    in just about every RTL thread, I ask the Legimate question, “why is it OK for mary wilson to tour with any two women she wants to and call them the Supremes, but it is not OK for diana ross to tour with two Motown signed, recorded and toured Supremes? Even the andantes Have More street cred as Supremes than the different people Mary has picked up with and passed off as Supremes. But no one ever answers that question either. They just want to say that mary should’ve been on the tour but do not want to address the double standard.

  35. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by mwmr View Post
    pmsl... Mary sings on more Supremes songs in 17 years than any member and certainly more than Scherrie and def ‘screecher’ Lynda ... who’s contribution to the group was gone in blink of an eye
    Mary has sung on the most tracks for sure, but so what? On many tracks no one even knows she’s there. And back in the day, when she was not used on many tracks she was not missed at all. She has admitted that she chose not to record on love child.

    I don’t understand why you’re bringing this up what is your point?

    Lynda was not in the group for a long time, but she brought a lot with her and made the group better. She was a true musician, and had a lot of heavy duty connections in the business. It was lynda they could pick up the phone and call Stevie wonder and ask him to write and produce a song for Her group and have it done… He didn’t do it for Mary Jean Cindy or Susaye or Sherry. She was classy, educated, had a strong voice and enough talent to sing lead on her very first gig with the group. And she sounded great. The fact that she chose to leave the group that does not lessen the many contributions she brought to the group while she was there. She handled the interviews on television much better than Jean or Mary. And is really the only one that handled her lines well on variety shows. Mary was very high on Lynda and did not at all want For her to leave.

  36. #86
    The reason it is okay for Mary to tour with 2 no name Supremes as back up is that she has next to no national or mass following so no one cares.

    It’s quite different if you are Diana Ross

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    The reason it is okay for Mary to tour with 2 no name Supremes as back up is that she has next to no national or mass following so no one cares.

    It’s quite different if you are Diana Ross
    but she’s not trying to pass off no names, she’s using bonfire real life Motown contracted Supremes. Mary had every opportunity to travel and tour with real Supremes with the name, but she wouldn’t do it because she didn’t want to share the leads. She could even have joined the Flos, but didn’t want to. So she had her opportunities to two or three or supreme she just chose not to which is fine and that’s her right.

    The way I see it, Diana is offering three real Supremes…… So real as a matter of fact that mary wilson publicly asked the public to please except them and give them a chance. Read Soul magazine article: “mary wilson introduces the newest supreme “ Which was Lynda. No I’m not saying that the original lineup wouldn’t be better, of course it would. It might not sound as good, but they have made plans to augment the sound. But they weren’t able to come together and so, The original main voice and star of the Supremes with to Motown signed real Supremes, certainly trumps mary wilson and two nobody’s, the Flos or even mary wilson with the Flos.

    and remember, not long after Pedro and Maria got caught using the supreme‘s name without permission in South America, Mary asked to come back into the group and Susaye and Sherry both said yes, But Pedro stays home. Merry could’ve been back with the Supremes in the fall of 1977 but chose not to because they refused to have Pedro have anything to do with the group. So that is on Mary. So that’s twice Mary has turned down returning to the group and both times she wanted to do it, but only on her terms. And all of that is fine, everybody should do everything on the terms that they are comfortable with, but I don’t see how Diana using Sherry and lynda deserves to be called a fake Supremes , sub-premes, replacements or any Of the other euphemisms mary used to describe the former singers that she wanted desperately the public to except the Supremes when she was in the group. She let the public to believe that Diana was trying to pass off fake supreme is as real Supremes with that was not true. The fact of the matter is if the public was so insistent on seeing Mary, why did that not translate to the public wanting to see Mary without the Supremes? Her sophisticated ladies tour tanked. Nothing has happened in the last 20 years to suggest that the general public or the even the Supremes loving public had any sort of affinity for Mary because she’s been a very minor and box office draw. I firmly believe that If Mary had never said a word about the lineup, everything would’ve gone smoothly.

  38. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    but she’s not trying to pass off no names, she’s using bonfire real life Motown contracted Supremes. Mary had every opportunity to travel and tour with real Supremes with the name, but she wouldn’t do it because she didn’t want to share the leads. She could even have joined the Flos, but didn’t want to. So she had her opportunities to two or three or supreme she just chose not to which is fine and that’s her right.

    The way I see it, Diana is offering three real Supremes…… So real as a matter of fact that mary wilson publicly asked the public to please except them and give them a chance. Read Soul magazine article: “mary wilson introduces the newest supreme “ Which was Lynda. No I’m not saying that the original lineup wouldn’t be better, of course it would. It might not sound as good, but they have made plans to augment the sound. But they weren’t able to come together and so, The original main voice and star of the Supremes with to Motown signed real Supremes, certainly trumps mary wilson and two nobody’s, the Flos or even mary wilson with the Flos.

    and remember, not long after Pedro and Maria got caught using the supreme‘s name without permission in South America, Mary asked to come back into the group and Susaye and Sherry both said yes, But Pedro stays home. Merry could’ve been back with the Supremes in the fall of 1977 but chose not to because they refused to have Pedro have anything to do with the group. So that is on Mary. So that’s twice Mary has turned down returning to the group and both times she wanted to do it, but only on her terms. And all of that is fine, everybody should do everything on the terms that they are comfortable with, but I don’t see how Diana using Sherry and lynda deserves to be called a fake Supremes , sub-premes, replacements or any Of the other euphemisms mary used to describe the former singers that she wanted desperately the public to except the Supremes when she was in the group. She let the public to believe that Diana was trying to pass off fake supreme is as real Supremes with that was not true. The fact of the matter is if the public was so insistent on seeing Mary, why did that not translate to the public wanting to see Mary without the Supremes? Her sophisticated ladies tour tanked. Nothing has happened in the last 20 years to suggest that the general public or the even the Supremes loving public had any sort of affinity for Mary because she’s been a very minor and box office draw. I firmly believe that If Mary had never said a word about the lineup, everything would’ve gone smoothly.
    I think if it weren't for Mary's public campaign against the RTL tour, it would have most likely continued with moderate success. Mary's PR work on how degrading and offensive this was simply poisoned the whole affair. People already had a somewhat negative diva image of Diana and this added fuel to the fire.

    Had they not had to contend with all the negative, Diana could have done more to show the public that these two women were in the group for years, and had been for years touring as FLOs. it could have been easily explained that both Diana solo and FLOS have been touring for years, often running into each other on the road, and decided to pair up. That would have worked better IMO than "reunion".

  39. #89
    Maniac - and don't forget Motown had some interest in reforming the MSC lineup in the early 80s. Mary insisted she get all the leads and obviously Motown didn't want that.

    i wonder if Pedro had never been on the scene, if mary might have stayed with the group. certainly the animosity would have been greatly reduced. I'm also assuming he was the one primarily poisoning Mary's mind to think she could go solo and be a pop star a la Diana. I don't deny mary is talented but as a traditional pop star - no. had she stayed with the group, they could have continued on much longer

  40. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Maniac - and don't forget Motown had some interest in reforming the MSC lineup in the early 80s. Mary insisted she get all the leads and obviously Motown didn't want that.

    i wonder if Pedro had never been on the scene, if mary might have stayed with the group. certainly the animosity would have been greatly reduced. I'm also assuming he was the one primarily poisoning Mary's mind to think she could go solo and be a pop star a la Diana. I don't deny mary is talented but as a traditional pop star - no. had she stayed with the group, they could have continued on much longer
    i think you’re right. Pedro is not just a chickenshit wife beater, he was also a supreme opportunist who ground the group into the dust. Mary should’ve apologized to the girls for allowing him to destroy the group. Imagine having a man with absolutely no connection to show business whatsoever managing one of the most iconic groups of all time with no experience at all. it’s outrageous. But of course, she put all the blame on Motown. Mary never owns up to her BS. Even that funny story about the South American bookings in 1977. She didn’t want to tell the truth so she made up that story about Motown booking them, without telling them, And then not allowing them to perform the gigs. Such a stupid thing to say because if Motown did something like that, they were both liable for all kinds of lawsuits and would have a hell of a time in the industry booking their acts in the future If a high profile tour like this one would get embroiled in such a mess. She just makes up anything she wants to support whatever she wants to say. Certainly the group would’ve been better off without him being involved. It’s hard to say what would’ve happened but it couldn’t have been any worse.

  41. #91
    yeah i was always suspect of the SA tour story. never really believe what she was saying in Sup Faith about it. the more likely story is Pedro or Mary's Sup Inc booked it and was so disorganized they forgot all about it or else as it was becoming clear that Mary's solo plans were not being activity planned out by Motown, they became desperate for money and booked it anyway

    There are so many "what ifs" during the 70s and especially the Scherrie years. many different potential paths to have explored. And it seems like Mary just continued to make so many mistakes. I realize she was being left to her own devices but some of this just seems like common sense

  42. #92
    Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t meant that was presented to her at that moment. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. It’s easy to sit and judge what happened over time. 95 % of us on this forum wasn’t there and we’re getting second, third or fourth hand knowledge of certain stories. Just remember someone telling a story from their viewpoint doesn’t mean that’s the way it was and I’m not just talking about Mary.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah i was always suspect of the SA tour story. never really believe what she was saying in Sup Faith about it. the more likely story is Pedro or Mary's Sup Inc booked it and was so disorganized they forgot all about it or else as it was becoming clear that Mary's solo plans were not being activity planned out by Motown, they became desperate for money and booked it anyway

    There are so many "what ifs" during the 70s and especially the Scherrie years. many different potential paths to have explored. And it seems like Mary just continued to make so many mistakes. I realize she was being left to her own devices but some of this just seems like common sense

  43. #93
    Also about that reunion of MSC, Motown wanted Scherrie to do all leads.

  44. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t meant that was presented to her at that moment. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. It’s easy to sit and judge what happened over time. 95 % of us on this forum wasn’t there and we’re getting second, third or fourth hand knowledge of certain stories. Just remember someone telling a story from their viewpoint doesn’t mean that’s the way it was and I’m not just talking about Mary.
    agreed - we're all having to speculate here. with other parts of the "supremes story" we have multiple sources to go off of and sort of cobble together our interpretation. for much of the 70s, we really on have Mary's version of things. Jean did her dvd but didn't reveal too much. sure there have been some small stories or things shared from the others but not tons. So that basically leaves us to try and fill in and interpret the best we can

  45. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Tracee is a huge star in her own right with a virtual reach far beyond those of her Mom or any other Motown personality
    Who? What's a 'virtual reach'? Is this like the Kardashian 'influencers' who have not at all contributed to society or culture (other than in a money-grabbing way?)

    It's probably too sad if social media 'influencers' are actually 'the sound of young america' these days.

  46. #96
    I fear the reach of social influencers is beyond what was possible in the Sound of Young America days

    Tracee has a large following - far greater than Diana

    Sadly maybe, I know nothing about the Kardashians

  47. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    I fear the reach of social influencers is beyond what was possible in the Sound of Young America days

    Tracee has a large following - far greater than Diana

    Sadly maybe, I know nothing about the Kardashians
    In the days of Motown, parents said the same thing about its music in derogatory screeds. I could go into the microfishe and dig up all the op-eds from parents in local newspapers about "corrupting the youth" and other pearl-clutching diatribes.

    Don't repeat that mistake. Social media is the media of the young today. Like it or not, that's how you reach them. Wanna get some young people enthused about Motown? Upload a clip of a song to TikTok and they'll use it for their posts. Ain't No Mountain was there for a while. I had a couple of great chats about who, what, and when that song was famous. More dialogue happened that way than by condemning the way they know the world. I know we could say the thing about Presley, BeBop, or Goodman...

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t meant that was presented to her at that moment. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. It’s easy to sit and judge what happened over time. 95 % of us on this forum wasn’t there and we’re getting second, third or fourth hand knowledge of certain stories. Just remember someone telling a story from their viewpoint doesn’t mean that’s the way it was and I’m not just talking about Mary.
    very true, but there’s the common sense factor to consider. Why, when itineraries are updated Consistently for 17 years for dozens of acts, would Motown fail this one time, after she left, sue her, and she soon asks to return? Why would Motown book an act that no longer existed AND then fail to mention it to the act? Why would Mary be responsible for Motown’s mistake when she had already left the group? Surely no artist can be held accountable for actions by a company that they had no functioning relationship with. Why wouldn’t the current Supremes be responsible? Why would Motown risk ruining their rep with a bad tour?

    you’re right. No,one can be sure. However, there is such a thing as common sense and track history. Her story, to me is preposterous. It’s like the detective says in psycho shortly before he is chopped up, “if it doesn’t gel, it isn’t aspic.......And this isn’t gelling.“

    We know that Mary is not a slave to the truth because there are many things in her books that have proven to be untrue, and while this will never be proven to be untrue, either will the Easter bunny.

  49. #99
    Ur right about common sense but like in life (and pardon my French) stranger shit does happen. We can assume all we want to but short of being there, We don’t know and have to go from there.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    very true, but there’s the common sense factor to consider. Why, when itineraries are updated Consistently for 17 years for dozens of acts, would Motown fail this one time, after she left, sue her, and she soon asks to return? Why would Motown book an act that no longer existed AND then fail to mention it to the act? Why would Mary be responsible for Motown’s mistake when she had already left the group? Surely no artist can be held accountable for actions by a company that they had no functioning relationship with. Why wouldn’t the current Supremes be responsible? Why would Motown risk ruining their rep with a bad tour?

    you’re right. No,one can be sure. However, there is such a thing as common sense and track history. Her story, to me is preposterous. It’s like the detective says in psycho shortly before he is chopped up, “if it doesn’t gel, it isn’t aspic.......And this isn’t gelling.“

    We know that Mary is not a slave to the truth because there are many things in her books that have proven to be untrue, and while this will never be proven to be untrue, either will the Easter bunny.

  50. #100
    And I’ve asked this question before and still didn’t get a clear answer , what in her books are proven untrue

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