The Supremes - Mary, Scherrie & Susaye Live @ The Roostertail Detroit!

[marv2]

From 1976 and celebrating the Supremes 15th Anniversary. There is footage from the fan convention towards the end of the video:

[detmotownguy]

Been a while since I have seen this! Even when Susaye is sitting down she has the High Energy! Do you know if they sang This is Why I Believe?

[marv2]

Been a while since I have seen this! Even when Susaye is sitting down she has the High Energy! Do you know if they sang This is Why I Believe?

I don't know if they sang that. I have seen pics of them doing that skit where Susaye plays Marilyn Monroe, Mary Josephine Baker and Scherrie Bessie Smith, I believe were the characters.

[luke]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

[marv2]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

Yeah, I never liked the pace of the "hits" medley. Those songs would have sounded great by these three had they slowed them down and stuck to the original arrangements of the songs. Looking at all these videos recently, makes me want to dig into my own archives. It made me remember how many shows and appearances by Mary Wilson and The Supremes that are not up on Youtube.

[detmotownguy]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

I wonder the tape is speeded up. But other Clips do show them in a bit of a frenzy.

[marv2]

I remember during the week they were in town, they did a guest appearance on our local television dance show called "The Scene" with Nat Morris [[who is a friend of mine). They performed "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and "You're What's Missing In My Life". A short clip of the latter song was on Youtube years ago. They seemed very happy, very energic on the show I remember.

[detmotownguy]

Dang it Marv I don’t remember that show. What channel was it on? The High Energy album should have charter much higher. Quite a few gems on it. I didn’t see it in any record store except one in Livonia. They had a whole display outside the store with all the new Motown releases.

[marv2]

Dang it Marv I don’t remember that show. What channel was it on? The High Energy album should have charter much higher. Quite a few gems on it. I didn’t see it in any record store except one in Livonia. They had a whole display outside the store with all the new Motown releases.

It was on WGPR Channel 62. The Scene ran every day, Mon. -Fri at 6:00 pm. It ran from October 1975 - 1987. Here is a clip from 1976:

[marv2]

What I liked most is that they were freer on stage and not the old stiff, standing behind microphones singing and delivering hokey stage patter in between songs.

[detmotownguy]

Marv do you know wht the seating capacity was at that time? Thanks!

[marv2]

Marv do you know wht the seating capacity was at that time? Thanks!

Not at all. I was in high school then and was not even thinking about adult nightclubs yet LOL! Seriously, there may info. on the seating capacity on the web somewhere.

[detmotownguy]

Not at all. I was in high school then and was not even thinking about adult nightclubs yet LOL! Seriously, there may info. on the seating capacity on the web somewhere.

Looks like the maximum is 1200. I would assume being in Detroit, it was sold out.

[marv2]

Looks like the maximum is 1200. I would assume being in Detroit, it was sold out.

Well they ran for about a week. I am pretty sure they sold out.

[captainjames]

I remember being at one of these shows and it as my first time seeing Susaye perform with the group. We got our tickets the day of the show so I don't think it was sold out. MSS sounded good but I have said it several times before that watching them you got the feeling something was missing.

[Ollie9]

I remember being at one of these shows and it as my first time seeing Susaye perform with the group. We got our tickets the day of the show so I don't think it was sold out. MSS sounded good but I have said it several times before that watching them you got the feeling something was missing.

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

[milven]

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

This was Mary's "solo" show, but she kept the Supremes' name in the billing and sang with the two Karens.

There is another older thread here about her performance at the Palladium in 1978

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...Palladium-1978

[captainjames]

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

As a group the Supremes always complimented each other on stage. MSS vocally were in top form but as a group they became three lead singers on stage. So in my eyes on stage they were no longer the Supremes they were MSS. It was hard to watch but they were great to listen to.

[sup_fan]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

[captainjames]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

sup_fan, you are a smart fan !!!!!!
anyone looking could see it or had to be blind.

[marv2]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd never go see an artist that hasn't changed their show or presentation of it in like 30 years. What would be the point?

[detmotownguy]

As a group the Supremes always complimented each other on stage. MSS vocally were in top form but as a group they became three lead singers on stage. So in my eyes on stage they were no longer the Supremes they were MSS. It was hard to watch but they were great to listen to.

I understand the point of no longer being the Sups almost to the point of wishing they'd skip the 60's hits. I saw Mary do the symphony show a while back and I thought it would not bother me if she never sang Baby Love again! But I assume that fans were expecting 60's at the Roostertail event. Mary has said several times there is value in the name. MSS is my fav grouping. Anytime I lent out their last 2 albums they always got rave reviews. I wish they would have made the break from Motown....... sorry for the disjointed post as I am super sick atm.

[marv2]

I understand the point of no longer being the Sups almost to the point of wishing they'd skip the 60's hits. I saw Mary do the symphony show a while back and I thought it would not bother me if she never sang Baby Love again! But I assume that fans were expecting 60's at the Roostertail event. Mary has said several times there is value in the name. MSS is my fav grouping. Anytime I lent out their last 2 albums they always got rave reviews. I wish they would have made the break from Motown....... sorry for the disjointed post as I am super sick atm.

Oh no! Feel better soon DET.

[RanRan79]

What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

[monicarivers]

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

I agree completely which is why I have a hard time watching any live performances with this lineup ALTHOUGH, on record, they are my second favorite. The recorded performances at least let for a divvying up of lead vocal responsibilities.

[sup_fan]

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

totally agree. another thing is that sometimes there's too much of a good thing. like trading off lines in a song, 3-part harmony, all the different leads. Each of these ideas has merit especially given the vocal talents of MSS. But to have the entire show basically as non-stop 3 part harmony and every song bounces the lead around verse by verse to each girl, etc and you get a hot mess. by doing these elements too much you degrade the value of each. There are times when their 3 part live harmonies were gorgeous and others where they're dancing so much and racing all over the stage so much that they're breathless and then out of tune.

I like the dance routine for Let Yourself Go in the HE video clips. but it's an intricate routine. for a video or when they're lip syncing, fine. but when they're singing live they should have chopped the routine to mostly standing there and singing.

Also someone needed to regular the ad libbing and singing off of the main parts because, again, a little goes a long way.

[marv2]

totally agree. another thing is that sometimes there's too much of a good thing. like trading off lines in a song, 3-part harmony, all the different leads. Each of these ideas has merit especially given the vocal talents of MSS. But to have the entire show basically as non-stop 3 part harmony and every song bounces the lead around verse by verse to each girl, etc and you get a hot mess. by doing these elements too much you degrade the value of each. There are times when their 3 part live harmonies were gorgeous and others where they're dancing so much and racing all over the stage so much that they're breathless and then out of tune.

I like the dance routine for Let Yourself Go in the HE video clips. but it's an intricate routine. for a video or when they're lip syncing, fine. but when they're singing live they should have chopped the routine to mostly standing there and singing.

Also someone needed to regular the ad libbing and singing off of the main parts because, again, a little goes a long way.

I thought Mary, Scherrie and Susaye were GREAT! On record and on stage. I do not recall being unhappy with them at all back in 1976-77. I was a bit sad when Mary decided to leave,but it was ok.

[midnightman]

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

It was just like what Marvin Gaye once described working with Diana: they were like kids fighting over the same cookie. If you're used to being a background singer and you join a female supergroup with the chance to branch out, it can be difficult especially when the one who was one of the original members and waited years to prove herself now wants to do leads too. Three headstrong women who all want to sing lead, it was gonna clash. This lineup only lasted a year for a reason!

[RanRan79]

It was just like what Marvin Gaye once described working with Diana: they were like kids fighting over the same cookie. If you're used to being a background singer and you join a female supergroup with the chance to branch out, it can be difficult especially when the one who was one of the original members and waited years to prove herself now wants to do leads too. Three headstrong women who all want to sing lead, it was gonna clash. This lineup only lasted a year for a reason!

Exactly. MSS were a train wreck in the making. I'm not sure people really understand how valuable a Cindy Birdsong is. Interestingly, when Flo was in the group, Mary was the Cindy. She was the glue. She was the one that kept a balance between Flo and Diana, not just vocally, but personality wise. Flo and Diana both had egos. Mary obviously had one too [[I believe it's a prerequisite for becoming an entertainer, there's a certain amount of ego involved.), but it was understated and she was willing to do whatever just to keep the ship upright. Once Flo was gone and Cindy entered the picture, Mary suddenly moved into the Flo spot, while Cindy became the member that helped to strike a balance. Cindy continued in this role with Jean. When she was replaced with Lynda, I think the balance was noticeably off in every way. That's not to say that I back off my opinion that JML were a super group waiting to happen, but the fact that it fairly quickly imploded should have come as no surprise. Enter Cindy. She glues Mary and Scherrie very well. Exit Cindy, enter Susaye, and just like JML there's no longer a glue, a balancer. It's a free for all...all the way to the bargain basement of groups. Cindy definitely doesn't get the credit she deserves for her contributions to this group.

[REDHOT]

I went to 2 shows,they were sold out,it was the disco music was the thing, at that time,so the Medley had a disco feel,The Supremes Mary Scherrie and Susaye were soooo good,i remember they got a standing ovation each night,the harmony blend was tight,all 3 ladies were INCREDIBLE.

[detmotownguy]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;573906] “So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

[marv2]

[QUOTE=detmotownguy;574009]

“So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

All of that could have happened. It is clear now that more of the truth has seeped out over the years that Florence Ballard loved singing and even tried to pursue a solo career outside of Motown. It is also true that Berry Gordy turned those women against one another and most of it was done intentionally!

[RanRan79]

[QUOTE=detmotownguy;574009]

“So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

No, I'm saying around early 1966, Flo, Diana and Mary should have had a conversation with each other about what it is they need out of this group. I imagine both Flo and Mary would want more leads on albums and shows. Flo might even suggest that if a particular single sounded like it was more right for Flo than Diana, Flo should get a turn, just like in the early days. Diana might explain that someday she wants to be on her own. She wants to do movies and make million selling albums. Gordy has her on a course to eventually accomplish this, but they need this ship to move smoothly forward. The girls then take their demands to Gordy. United they stand, divided they fall. Believe it or not, they had more power than anyone thinks and could have used it. The girls may have needed to enlist the help of Gordy's sisters, who were apparently the only women who had any control over him. But if done right we might be having an entirely different discussion about the Supremes than we are currently having.

So with this new plan in place: On stage the Supremes really are three personalities with three individual talents to go along with it. [[If you really think about it, for the three of them, there is something there for everybody.) That gets spotlighted in more than just "People". Flo sings some songs. Mary sings some songs. Diana does a lot of MC'ing. Flo does a lot of comedy. The albums are even better, with songs suited to each lady's talent help make the albums even more appealing because there's something there for everyone to get into. The name never changes to DRATS. There's no shakeup in the lineup. No rumors of infighting. And then in January 1970 they leave the group to embark on their own solo careers. That means Gordy signs them all to solo contracts. He probably will focus his own attention on Diana, but someone else gets Flo, somebody else gets Mary. Maybe Mary's first album is produced by Smokey. Maybe Flo's is produced by Johnny Bristol. Maybe Mary starts to do some spokesmodeling for various products. Flo even gets into movies and television. The Supremes would be like the goose that laid three golden eggs for Motown. But the fact that the girls never united and turned course...

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;574072]

No, I'm saying around early 1966, Flo, Diana and Mary should have had a conversation with each other about what it is they need out of this group. I imagine both Flo and Mary would want more leads on albums and shows. Flo might even suggest that if a particular single sounded like it was more right for Flo than Diana, Flo should get a turn, just like in the early days. Diana might explain that someday she wants to be on her own. She wants to do movies and make million selling albums. Gordy has her on a course to eventually accomplish this, but they need this ship to move smoothly forward. The girls then take their demands to Gordy. United they stand, divided they fall. Believe it or not, they had more power than anyone thinks and could have used it. The girls may have needed to enlist the help of Gordy's sisters, who were apparently the only women who had any control over him. But if done right we might be having an entirely different discussion about the Supremes than we are currently having.

So with this new plan in place: On stage the Supremes really are three personalities with three individual talents to go along with it. [[If you really think about it, for the three of them, there is something there for everybody.) That gets spotlighted in more than just "People". Flo sings some songs. Mary sings some songs. Diana does a lot of MC'ing. Flo does a lot of comedy. The albums are even better, with songs suited to each lady's talent help make the albums even more appealing because there's something there for everyone to get into. The name never changes to DRATS. There's no shakeup in the lineup. No rumors of infighting. And then in January 1970 they leave the group to embark on their own solo careers. That means Gordy signs them all to solo contracts. He probably will focus his own attention on Diana, but someone else gets Flo, somebody else gets Mary. Maybe Mary's first album is produced by Smokey. Maybe Flo's is produced by Johnny Bristol. Maybe Mary starts to do some spokesmodeling for various products. Flo even gets into movies and television. The Supremes would be like the goose that laid three golden eggs for Motown. But the fact that the girls never united and turned course...

i'm not read nearly as much about the history of Destiny's Child [[and i know some people on here hate them and B) but what you're describing is similar to what Randy points out in his B bio. Matthew Knowles DID have the foresight to allow each member some ability to develop their own skills and feel valued, while still never taking the eye off of B. after the earlier messes, one it was B, Kelly and Michelle, the group didn't really have the internal strife like the Supremes.

I completely agree that Berry was beyond tunnel-vision when it came to Diana. What's interesting is the the company understood the value of differentiation becuase they had zillions of sub-labels. the Motown label was the primary "home" label but they created others so that they could ensure sales and airplay coverage. if everything was Motown then there's be less. but they made Soul specifically to go into a harder r&b sound. plus all the others.

Berry was particular about the people he worked heavily with. he's credited Diana because she had the same unerring drive as he did. it seems that if people didn't have that matched level, he quickly grew disinterested. Also if they had any problems along the way, he seems to wipe his hands of them. I'm making the guess here but i think that's partially why he bailed on Martha. once she got into drugs and had her own struggles, he wasn't going to invest in her. Wanda never had a prayer either.

But they very well could [[and should) have groomed various female stars in different ways.

[detmotownguy]

i've not heard of any additional recording sessions beyond those from the MS&S lp but i don't know. I have some old fan club newsletters from the time and had the typical interviews with the girls talking about plans and all. Susaye mentions writing and producing for the group but again, who knows. it doesn't seem like there are any unreleased tracks from MS&S although there were some alt versions. at least no completed unreleased tracks. and Mary made the decision to go solo by Dec 76 - the lp was released in October. so not a lot of time to be back in the studios.

I've also heard fan rumors that the Hollands were having some problems with the motown people again. anyone else know of this?

Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

[marv2]

Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

Me too. I was just enjoying the video and wanted others to see it. I do not work in the entertainment business, so I feel strange detailing what professional entertainers should have done [[especially ones as world-famous as the Supremes). As a fan, it is ok to sometimes wish certain things had happened, but to give instructions on what should have changed to fit some type of end 45 years ago is just strange as Hell to me LOL!

[sup_fan]

Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

well cuz it's fun! lolol

plus new things are being unearthed by Andy and team, learning more about what was happening behind the scenes. Plus no one person knows it all. it's great to share thoughts, memories and ideas. learn new things. and sometimes based on fan comments and discussions, i've changed my mind about something

[sup_fan]

but look at to FLOs. Scherrie has been working with them since 89 or so. But she also does her own side projects. which is wonderful. had the Supremes stayed together, there's no reason they couldn't have also done some individual activities.

had another thought about the group's struggles in the 70s

Diana really transformed not only her sound and image but public perception too. At first she was, frankly, just like DRATS but by herself on stage. But then she took on a Hollywood personality. then she was a mother. Then a mature "woman of the 80s"

obviously i'm making some pretty broad sweeps here but i think you get the picture

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

[marv2]

but look at to FLOs. Scherrie has been working with them since 89 or so. But she also does her own side projects. which is wonderful. had the Supremes stayed together, there's no reason they couldn't have also done some individual activities.

had another thought about the group's struggles in the 70s

Diana really transformed not only her sound and image but public perception too. At first she was, frankly, just like DRATS but by herself on stage. But then she took on a Hollywood personality. then she was a mother. Then a mature "woman of the 80s"

obviously i'm making some pretty broad sweeps here but i think you get the picture

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

Mary has helped to get laws passed. She has been a U.S. Cultural Ambassador around the world. So I cannot say in truth that she never progressed beyond "simply smiling in sequins" because that would be a fat ass lie!

[detmotownguy]

She was the one who wrote 2 successful books.

[marv2]

She was the one who wrote 2 successful books.

She's the one that has done a number of stage plays and musicals. She keeps hers and the Supremes legacy alive more than anyone I can think of. Kick those legs up pretty high on "Dancing With the Stars" too! LOL! Mary's career has been so long and so varied that it could days to discuss the highlights here.

Someone just emailed me to say that Mary Wilson is putting together a all Girls Group telethon to benefit victims of COVID-19, etc.

[Ollie9]

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

To view Mary as someone who has never evolved beyond standing in the footlights looking pretty in sequins isi extremely unfair. She may not be as high profile as Diana, but she has worked very in trying to make the world a better place as well as being a consummate performer, author, actress and humanitarian.

[RanRan79]

To view Mary as someone who has never evolved beyond standing in the footlights looking pretty in sequins isi extremely unfair. She may not be as high profile as Diana, but she has worked very in trying to make the world a better place as well as being a consummate performer, author, actress and humanitarian.

I think Sup is referring to her as a performer, not as a human being. That's how I took his post anyway.

[sup_fan]

I think Sup is referring to her as a performer, not as a human being. That's how I took his post anyway.

thanks Ran

now i'm only going off of a handful of interviews that are still available today. but on many of the tv talk shows, well into the 70s Mary is still chatting about going shopping, giggling, tossing off canned PR responses. Not that she had to divulge her darkest secrets. but it seems that they were portraying themselves as very plastic at times.

[RanRan79]

but look at to FLOs. Scherrie has been working with them since 89 or so. But she also does her own side projects. which is wonderful. had the Supremes stayed together, there's no reason they couldn't have also done some individual activities.

had another thought about the group's struggles in the 70s

Diana really transformed not only her sound and image but public perception too. At first she was, frankly, just like DRATS but by herself on stage. But then she took on a Hollywood personality. then she was a mother. Then a mature "woman of the 80s"

obviously i'm making some pretty broad sweeps here but i think you get the picture

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

Sure, Mary could've continued with the Supremes if she wanted to. Apparently she didn't want to, and IMO that's okay. Let's be real, keeping a group together is more than "okay girls, let's go sing". There's a lot of work involved, including the managing of egos, which apparently wasn't Mary's strong suit. I personally think her talent was big enough to step out on her own, unlike my views about, say, Otis Williams, whom I view as a Cindy Birdsong type. But even Cindy gave the group the finger and did her own thing at one point. Sometimes folks just want to move on and I would never begrudge Mary or any other Supreme that right. Why stay in something that makes you unhappy?

I agree about Diana's transformation. That earliest solo period was basically a Supremes-less DRATS experience, before transforming into a solid solo with Lady Sings The Blues and TMITM, and then exploding around "Love Hangover" as a bonafide superstar. The 80s definitely brought on another change. Of course eventually the criticism would become that she too would fail to reinvent herself when the time came.

But when it comes to the Supremes, I think they in many ways stepped their game up in the early 70s. There was now no longer a star attraction inside the star attraction. It was a new thing. New look. New sound. New vibe. Sometimes. That they were still doing MOR, even during the Scherrie years, that was just a bad move. All of that should've been eschewed when Ross left and Terrell stepped in. It was the 70s, time for a total revamp. I love the photo sessions of the 70s girls in a hip new wardrobe, or even the updated glam stuff, relevant to the times. Bad move recycling DRATS gowns. I think some of this stuff was a turnoff to the general public. When someone says "new" Supremes, that's what they expect to get. They didn't have to do anything as radical as Labelle, but they could've definitely used a lot more change than what eventually occurred. Jean brought a whole new dimension of possibilities. And with the 70s having some of the best-IMO-slow jams of all time, Mary's voice would've been a perfect fit for something slow and sexy. But Jean was being forced to sing "You're Nobody" and Mary "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" for the 12th year in a row.

[[Interesting note, I suspect that the reason the Three Degrees didn't fare as well in the States, despite being phenomenal vocalists and performers and having some killer cuts, is because they too could be very Vegasy and "old fashioned" at times, although personally I find their act to be a million times better than what the 70s Supremes were ever doing.)

I don't think the 70s Supremes were ever just smiling girls in sequins. I definitely think they came across as mature, sophisticated women. As for Mary, Mary did reinvent herself in the 80s as a Tina Turner like rocker. And then in the 90s she took on a more relevant vibe to the times. Unfortunately, Mary the rocker didn't work to anyone's taste, and by the time the 90s rolled around, the business was so far and away from legends of Mary's age, that she really didn't have much of a chance to garner any public spotlight for anybody to case about her transformation.

[detmotownguy]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;574091]

i'm not read nearly as much about the history of Destiny's Child [[and i know some people on here hate them and B) but what you're describing is similar to what Randy points out in his B bio. Matthew Knowles DID have the foresight to allow each member some ability to develop their own skills and feel valued, while still never taking the eye off of B. after the earlier messes, one it was B, Kelly and Michelle, the group didn't really have the internal strife like the Supremes.

I completely agree that Berry was beyond tunnel-vision when it came to Diana. What's interesting is the the company understood the value of differentiation becuase they had zillions of sub-labels. the Motown label was the primary "home" label but they created others so that they could ensure sales and airplay coverage. if everything was Motown then there's be less. but they made Soul specifically to go into a harder r&b sound. plus all the others.

Berry was particular about the people he worked heavily with. he's credited Diana because she had the same unerring drive as he did. it seems that if people didn't have that matched level, he quickly grew disinterested. Also if they had any problems along the way, he seems to wipe his hands of them. I'm making the guess here but i think that's partially why he bailed on Martha. once she got into drugs and had her own struggles, he wasn't going to invest in her. Wanda never had a prayer either.

But they very well could [[and should) have groomed various female stars in different ways.

I understand a small co. being disinterested in employees associated with drugs. Berry did not possess the leadership skills to look beyond his one star.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=detmotownguy;574166]

I understand a small co. being disinterested in employees associated with drugs. Berry did not possess the leadership skills to look beyond his one star.

Barney Ales said he did drugs with Berry Gordy at one time. They did "pills". Anyone that made a public declaration about not associating with those that used drugs or don't do drugs are lying most of the time. Especially in the music business.

[gman]

They were NOT Fleetwood Mac....its rare 3 individual talents can have major success within the same group, and continue on for years nurturing both solo careers and group activity...

Plus, they were understandably unnerved by the oldies show where they were the star attraction, in NYC in the summer of '76, and got booed off stage at Madison Square Garden...in front of a VERY large audience....there were most likely more people at that ONE show than there were in attendance at a months worth of Vegas headlining. it was a very high profile gig. Even with DR, the group never performed at MSG....it may have been a great opportunity for grand exposure, but a very bad move to take a show built on disco-fied current releases to a oldies gig and think you can save the day with a train wreck/tornado paced hits medley.....God only knows how many ticket buyers didn't follow the group and due to lack of a top ten record for years didn't realize the group had continued recording and performing, and thought they disbanded....and the radio spot for the show aired every 30 minutes for weeks, with wild canned applause after the announcement of each individual act over the sound of one of [[or in some cases "the") each acts major hit... meanwhile playing BABY LOVE when mentioning excitedly "THE SUPREMES!" perhaps the greasers assumed Diana Ross took this gig on as a one off special appearance to perform in a major market with the Supremes? It may have been a lot wiser to use STONED LOVE as the radio spot…

[marv2]

They were NOT Fleetwood Mac....its rare 3 individual talents can have major success within the same group, and continue on for years nurturing both solo careers and group activity...

Plus, they were understandably unnerved by the oldies show where they were the star attraction, in NYC in the summer of '76, and got booed off stage at Madison Square Garden...in front of a VERY large audience....there were most likely more people at that ONE show than there were in attendance at a months worth of Vegas headlining. it was a very high profile gig. Even with DR, the group never performed at MSG....it may have been a great opportunity for grand exposure, but a very bad move to take a show built on disco-fied current releases to a oldies gig and think you can save the day with a train wreck/tornado paced hits medley.....God only knows how many ticket buyers didn't follow the group and due to lack of a top ten record for years didn't realize the group had continued recording and performing, and thought they disbanded....and the radio spot for the show aired every 30 minutes for weeks, with wild canned applause after the announcement of each individual act over the sound of one of [[or in some cases "the") each acts major hit... meanwhile playing BABY LOVE when mentioning excitedly "THE SUPREMES!" perhaps the greasers assumed Diana Ross took this gig on as a one off special appearance to perform in a major market with the Supremes? It may have been a lot wiser to use STONED LOVE as the radio spot…

The MSG gig you are referring to was Richard Nader's Rock and Roll Oldies Show. It occurred in March 1977. We pleaded with them not to do it as the Supremes were still a current act with current music on the market. They needed the money. Half of the biker and biker chick crowd [[mostly from Jersey) booed and walked out during their part of the show. Those that remained cheered the Supremes very loudly. Still it was a poor choice of appearances for the group.

[marv2]

They were NOT Fleetwood Mac....its rare 3 individual talents can have major success within the same group, and continue on for years nurturing both solo careers and group activity...

Plus, they were understandably unnerved by the oldies show where they were the star attraction, in NYC in the summer of '76, and got booed off stage at Madison Square Garden...in front of a VERY large audience....there were most likely more people at that ONE show than there were in attendance at a months worth of Vegas headlining. it was a very high profile gig. Even with DR, the group never performed at MSG....it may have been a great opportunity for grand exposure, but a very bad move to take a show built on disco-fied current releases to a oldies gig and think you can save the day with a train wreck/tornado paced hits medley.....God only knows how many ticket buyers didn't follow the group and due to lack of a top ten record for years didn't realize the group had continued recording and performing, and thought they disbanded....and the radio spot for the show aired every 30 minutes for weeks, with wild canned applause after the announcement of each individual act over the sound of one of [[or in some cases "the") each acts major hit... meanwhile playing BABY LOVE when mentioning excitedly "THE SUPREMES!" perhaps the greasers assumed Diana Ross took this gig on as a one off special appearance to perform in a major market with the Supremes? It may have been a lot wiser to use STONED LOVE as the radio spot…

It really is long ago history now just like when Diana Ross was booed off of the stage at the Air Jamaica Music Festival in 2008. Some people just want to see and hear the oldies which is why Ross' audience would routinely walk out after the Supremes hits medley at Jones Beach to avoid the traffic. LOL!