River deep, mountain high

[Motown_M_1056]

The new Phil Spector Best Of Cd ends with his production of River Deep, Mountain High by Ike & Tina Turner. By now we know the song was a commercial failure in the US, but a hit in the UK. The song didn't receive proper or focused US chart attention until the 1970s version by the Supremes & the Four Tops. My question is why do you think Ike & Tina's or Tina's version failed and which version do you prefer?

[gary_james]

I think Phil was out of touch by 1966, and the record was poorly produced.
This should have been a powerful production that exploded, with drums and percussion out FRONT... like Motown and everything else. This composition really needed that.
Strings, guitars and keyboards too. Instead, it's weak & bland, has no drive.

[smark21]

I prefer Supremes/4 Tops. It's a bit over the top in the strings, but otherwise a very good production. The Phil Spector version is just over the top in every way, except for Tina's exceptional vocal, which is not enough to save it, IMO.

[reese]

I prefer the Tina Turner version, although I do like the Supremes/Tops remake as well.

Why wasn't Tina's a hit in the US? There could be many factors. Maybe the industry was tired of Phil's sound or Phil in general by then. Tina has said that the record had no home: too pop for the r&b stations, and too r&b for the pop stations.

Also, Ike and Tina weren't consistent hitmakers. Although they had a nice run of hit singles on Sue Records in the early 60s, and a similar run on UA in the early 70s, their reputation was really built by their dynamic stage act. So the fact that the single flopped in the US wasn't unusual.

[randy_russi]

Phil, by that point, had really pissed off a lot of djs in the country. He made some negative remarks or something and I
guess if he made those statements he made them forgetting that djs are a record company's life-blood.
It's a shame, but I always liked the second Philles single, "I'll Never Need More Than This", much better.
"River Deep" by Tina is just way over produced, I think.
But, yes, a major hit in Europe--the U.K., I think it went to #3.

[marv2]

Ike and Tina Turners [[Phil Spector's) version of "River Deep, Mountain High" sound muffled, the Supremes/Four Tops [[Motown's) version sounded clear, crisp and hot! Tina is a good singer but she can't do what Jean Terrell does! Levi and the Tops? Forgetaboutit! You had two of the true powerhouse vocal groups at the time and probably the best production in the business at Motown........it would always be no contest! LOL!

[skooldem1]

There is no competition. Tina and Phil's version is the original. All others are remakes. The magnificent 7 don't hold a candle next to Tina Turner. I know the Mag7 version is the highest charting version in the USA but the thing is NO ONE even remembers they recorded it. This will go down in history as one of Tina Turners greatest recordings.

[randy_russi]

One of the reasons for the muffled sound on the original Philles 45rpms is that Phil had purchased is own pressing plant
which was producing a cheaper quality disc therefore giving them a more distorted sound. The quality on Tina's version
is much more clear on the stereo recording issued on lp on A&M and subsequent releases on CD.
But, again, I thought the song was way over-produced and I prefer some of the other recordings she did with Phil
such as the already mentioned "I'll Never Need More Than This" [[which she performed on American Bandstand at the
time) and her fantastic version of "A Love Like Yours", also issued on Philles 45.

[Motown_M_1056]

You guys are all sharp. There was some interesting points made.
Randy: Phil should have remembered DJs were his allies- not enemies.
Reese: Ike & Tina weren't consistent hitmakers or song stylists until the 1970s. they were having problems getting hits on he charts because they were a little inconsistent.
Gary & Skooldem: I agree Spector's River Deep...is a noisy record, that sounds muffled. There's too much going on that detracts from Tina's vocals. I didn't know what the song was about until I heard the Motown cover. But truth be told, I never hear either version on oldies radio where I live.

[roger]

But, yes, a major hit in Europe--the U.K., I think it went to #3.

Yes Randy .. got to #3 in Britain, spent 13 weeks on the charts and debuted on June 9th 1966.

The song was reissued in 1969, debuted on February 12th 1969, spent 7 weeks on the charts and peaked at #33.

In contrast the SUPREMES/FOUR TOPS version debuted on the British charts on 26th June 1971, spent 10 weeks on the charts and peaked at #11.

Roger

[marv2]

There is no competition. Tina and Phil's version is the original. All others are remakes. The magnificent 7 don't hold a candle next to Tina Turner. I know the Mag7 version is the highest charting version in the USA but the thing is NO ONE even remembers they recorded it. This will go down in history as one of Tina Turners greatest recordings.

Yeah right! That's why the Supremes and Four Tops version gets played here in New York on oldies stations and Tina's does not! They took that song from Ike & Tina just like Aretha took "Respect" from Otis! In this case, the "remake" was better than the original! I always thought The Supremes & Four Tops version was the original until sometime in the 80's when I heard Tina's version on some radio special program.

[randy_russi]

Right around the same time Tina's version was issued, Dobie Gray recorded it and did his version on American Bandstand.
As a matter of fact, many acts covered it. It was considered a great song!

[skooldem1]

I think Tina Turner leaves Jean and company in the dust on this one. That is my opinion. The fact remains that this song is associated with Tina Turner and no one even knows the Supremes/Tempts recorded it.

[Motown_M_1056]

I never hear either version on the radio here.

[roger]

I think Tina Turner leaves Jean and company in the dust on this one. That is my opinion. The fact remains that this song is associated with Tina Turner and no one even knows the Supremes/Tempts recorded it.

That is because it was THE SUPREMES AND THE FOUR TOPS who recorded it.

Roger

[skooldem1]

Thanks for the clarification. Thats what I'm trying to say. No one knows or remembers that it was recorded by the Sups/Tops. LoL.

[randy_russi]

I thought it was a very strange song choice for Dobie Gray to record. Again, several people covered this song, but only
the Sups/Tops actually had a U.S. hit with it, though as stated above, it's not so well remembered.
Did n't Eric Burdon/Animals do a version or some group like Deep Purple?

[sunshineonacloudyday]

"The song didn't receive proper US chart attention..." That's a matter of opinion. I never liked the song, never bought it or listened to it back in the day, nor have I ever known or associated with anyone who liked the song, lol. And yet I've read critics rave about it over the years. But I think there are some who consider everything Spector did a work of genius. I also thought Tina Turner sounded out of her element doing the song, much prefer her 60s Soul-Blues material.

[marv2]

I think Tina Turner leaves Jean and company in the dust on this one. That is my opinion. The fact remains that this song is associated with Tina Turner and no one even knows the Supremes/Tempts recorded it.

You got to be outta your mind! Tina and them's version sounds like a bunch kids playing in a basement. LOL!

[marv2]

This is the definitive version, the hit version! More people like it by the Supremes and Four Tops.......because more people bought it!

[marv2]

"The song didn't receive proper US chart attention..." That's a matter of opinion. I never liked the song, never bought it or listened to it back in the day, nor have I ever known or associated with anyone who liked the song, lol. And yet I've read critics rave about it over the years. But I think there are some who consider everything Spector did a work of genius. I also thought Tina Turner sounded out of her element doing the song, much prefer her 60s Soul-Blues material.

She was totally out of her element and Phil Spector was not a genius. He was excessive if anything! All that screeching Tina was doing on that record did not please my ears!

[RossHolloway]

I've always preferred the Sup/Tops version. The production is just better. Hands down. As someone else said the Tina and Ike version just sounds distorted and cloudy-muffled. If Phil had done a clean production like the Sup/Tops version I think it would have been a much bigger hit. But wasn't the "Wall of Sound" pretty much dead by 1966? Didn't Phil produce some late 60's Beatles album, but what else of note did he produce in the mid-late 60's? I think I heard the Sup/Tops version years before the original version, and when I finally heard the original version I could see why it wasn't much of a hit. The Supremes-Tops version also reminds me of another remake: I'm Gonna Make You Love Me and how the groups and Motown's production made it far superior to the DeeDee Warwick version- much like River Deep. Motown just competed on a whole different level when it came to making polished records.

[RossHolloway]

Does anyone know if the Tops and Supremes ever performed this song on tv?

[roger]

But wasn't the "Wall of Sound" pretty much dead by 1966? Didn't Phil produce some late 60's Beatles album, but what else of note did he produce in the mid-late 60's?

You could try this #8 R&B and #13 Pop hit from 1969.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZbmNU2rHRk

Roger

[skooldem1]

The Motown production is better than the original, but with that said. No one can top Tina's vocal on this song. No one.

[RossHolloway]

You could try this #8 R&B and #13 Pop hit from 1969.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZbmNU2rHRk

Roger

Love this song, I have it in my I-Pod. Did Phil produce an entire album on Tina and Ike in 1966 or just the single?

[roger]

Love this song, I have it in my I-Pod. Did Phil produce an entire album on Tina and Ike in 1966 or just the single?

There was an L.P. which was a very big seller in Britain ..

http://www.amazon.com/River-Deep-Ike.../dp/B0000074LE

I have a C.D. reissue of it, and the notes state that the L.P. never got a release in the U.S.

Most of the tracks are more "R&B" than "River Deep" is, and it includes remakes of "Fool In Love" and "I Idolize You", plus the Motown song "A Love Like Yours" [[ KIM WESTON, MARTHA AND THE VANDELLAS ).

Roger

[marv2]

The Motown production is better than the original, but with that said. No one can top Tina's vocal on this song. No one.

Sure you could. You just get any old alley cat and drag 'em backwards through the alley and you got a better vocal than all that snarling and screeching Tina did on that record! LOL!

[skooldem1]

Stop it. LoL.

[reese]

Ike and Tina's RIVER DEEP MOUNTAIN HIGH album is about to be re-released by Hip-O-Select.

[marv2]

Stop it. LoL.

I am glad to know that you know that I am kidding! LOL! I love Tina!

[sunshineonacloudyday]

There was an L.P. which was a very big seller in Britain ..

http://www.amazon.com/River-Deep-Ike.../dp/B0000074LE

I have a C.D. reissue of it, and the notes state that the L.P. never got a release in the U.S.

Most of the tracks are more "R&B" than "River Deep" is, and it includes remakes of "Fool In Love" and "I Idolize You", plus the Motown song "A Love Like Yours" [[ KIM WESTON, MARTHA AND THE VANDELLAS ).

Roger

The LP was issued in the U.S. I have come across it several times in thrift stores over the years, even bought a copy for 50 cents awhile back to listen again and see if my opinion of the song [[and the album) had changed. I couldn't even get through the title track once--ugh!

I too liked The Checkmates Ltd. "Black Pearl" the single, but the LP it's off of: Love Is All I Have To Give [[A&M,1969) contained mostly filler, including several forgettable cover tunes. Clearly, Phil Spector's time had come & gone.

[roger]

The LP was issued in the U.S. I have come across it several times in thrift stores over the years, even bought a copy for 50 cents awhile back to listen again and see if my opinion of the song [[and the album) had changed. I couldn't even get through the title track once--ugh!

I too liked The Checkmates Ltd. "Black Pearl" the single, but the LP it's off of: Love Is All I Have To Give [[A&M,1969) contained mostly filler, including several forgettable cover tunes. Clearly, Phil Spector's time had come & gone.

I think the comment in my CD reissue of the "River Deep Mountain High" must mean that it was never issued in the U.S. at the time, in 1966.

If I check my Billboard L.P. chart reference books they have the "River Deep Mountain High" L.P. issued on A&M 4178 and entering the Billboard listings on September 27th 1969, spending 8 weeks on the chart and peaking at #102. So it looks like it was finally released in the U.S. 3 years after it was in Britain.

Totally agree with you on the SONNY CHARLES & THE CHECKMATES L.P. I have a very scratchy vinyl copy and the hip-o CD reissue from four or five back. I like side one, which has "Black Pearl" and the U.K. hit "Proud Mary" [[ got to #30 here ) on it, but I find the "B" side, all songs from "Hair", a bit hard to listen to.

I remember the SONNY CHARLES version of "Black Pearl" got some airplay here but never became a hit .. the hit version was this Reggae version .. got to #13.

HORACE FAITH : "Black Pearl" :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfhVZ...eature=related

Incidentally, the U.S. 45 of "River Deep" by IKE & TINA TURNER got to #88 on the Billboard Hot 100 in 1966.

Roger

[reese]

Some pressings of the unreleased Philles album did get out. They show up every now and then in collectors' mags like Discoveries and Goldmine. They usually are sold for a pretty penny.

[nosey]

Reese pretty much summed it up for me. Early Ike & Tina Turner records got played on the R&B Stations like the Gone, Gone, song and Your Just a Fool, but they went in another direction and Georgie Woods and the rest of them never played anything else by Ike & Tina and I listened everyday! Although I would never miss their performances on TV, I can't imagine Proud Mary or River Deep EVAH being played at any house party I went to in the hood back in the mid to late 60s. Just didn't happen!

[Motown_M_1056]

Some pressings of the unreleased Philles album did get out. They show up every now and then in collectors' mags like Discoveries and Goldmine. They usually are sold for a pretty penny.

As Reese noted, the River Deep, Mountain High album by Ike & Tina is being reissued by Hip O. I already have a copy. There was a time, just a few years back, when collectors couldn't easily find a copy of the original version on CD, only Tina's remakes. The thing I remember most about the album is that the entire thing was not produced by Phil Spector, Ike Turner produced some of the tracks. I don't believe Spector was ever an album producer. He was from the era when everything went into the production of a 45 single.

The first time I heard the Supremes & the Four Tops cover of River Deep.... I didn't recognize Jean Terrell's voice at all. I thought Dionne Warwick had signed with Motown and had recorded a duet with Levi Stubbs.

[randy_russi]

No, the Philles lp was never officially issued, but some pressings of the disc did get out. The actual lp cover was never
printed, however.
When Spector made a deal with A&M label in '69 the lp was then issued on that label. Tina always said she loved the
Spector stuff because he really liked her voice. She said he didn't want her screaming, which is what she did on Ike's
records to sell them.

[jdwheat]

I really liked the jazzed-up instrumental version of this song by Les McCann. Released around 1967-1968.

[RossHolloway]

I really liked the jazzed-up instrumental version of this song by Les McCann. Released around 1967-1968.

Now that's a version, I'd like to hear.
And does anyone know how many songs Phil produced on Tina? I've actually heard Tina's version of A Love Like Yours played on Pandora radio not too long ago. Odd choice for a remake, but it sounded good.

[randy_russi]

Well, she recorded a whole lp worth of material with him. I am sure there are a few others that never were issued.

[reese]

There were also a few Philles singles that weren't released on the RIVER DEEP album.

A MAN IS A MAN IS A MAN is one. I think TWO TO TANGO was another. There are some others. All of them weren't produced by Phil. I think Bob Crewe produced one.

[randy_russi]

There was an original Barry/Greenwich/Spector song called "Hold On, Baby" on the lp. I am not sure if Phil did or didn't
produce the entire lp, but I did like the version of the Steve Alaimo hit, "Everyday I Have To Cry" they did. Ike may have
produced the remakes of their former hits; not sure or can't remember.
Ike is credited with producing a great Ikettes single, "Down, Down" on Phil's Phi-Dan label.

[heikki]

Hi!

I think "River Deep-Mountain High" by Ike & Tina [[although Ike wasn't in sight) is the BEST prodoced record in the world so far. It is only matched by "Love Is All I Have To Give" by Phil again by the Checkmates lts in 1969 [[the single version). Nobody has ever topped that.

Best regards
Heikki

[randy_russi]

Wow, heikki, what a Spector fan you are!!! I do remember hearing that Ellie Greenwich was disappointed
when she heard the final master of "River Deep".

[144man]

Judging by Darlene Love's version on the "Leader of the Pack" soundtrack, if Spector had recorded her on the song like he promised her, that would have been the definitive version.

[heikki]

Hi Randy!
I love big and good production. I don't like Phil as a person, but he was a master in production. This we must give him. I also remember Ike being disappointed after hearing the master of "River Deep - Mountain High", but I think
this was sour grapes.
Best regards
Heikki