This Is Why Mary and Florence's Mics Were Turned Down........

[marv2]

They were two powerhouses:

[daviddh]

I like their harmony

[marv2]

I like their harmony

Some of the best harmonies in Pop music were produced by the Supremes, Mary, Flo and Diane.

[BigAl]

Some of the best harmonies in Pop music were produced by the Supremes, Mary, Flo and Diane.

It's too bad that, on so many [[not all, but a great many) of the airplay singles, Flo and Mary were made to sing in unison rather than to harmonize.

[marv2]

It's too bad that, on so many [[not all, but a great many) of the airplay singles, Flo and Mary were made to sing in unison rather than to harmonize.

I know what you mean. It was a case where money took over and surpassed artistry in importance.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

It's too bad that, on so many [[not all, but a great many) of the airplay singles, Flo and Mary were made to sing in unison rather than to harmonize.

The first time I heard The Supremes really harmonize was when I hear the singing some of those standards. I was blown away to say the least. Listening to a great deal of their hit recordings, you'd NEVER know these ladies could do some serious damage vocally. Especially with the "There's A Place For Us" CD, there are tunes where Flo, Mary and Diana are just tearing the house down with their strong vocal blend. Then I'd hear "My World Is Empty Without You" and it was almost like 2 different groups.

[marv2]

and this one.......

[marv2]

This is why I would put the Original Supremes up against ANY female singing group and they would still come out on top in my opinion. All three of them were great singers:

[mowest]

"Especially with the "There's A Place For Us" CD, there are tunes where Flo, Mary and Diana are just tearing the house down with their strong vocal blend. Then I'd hear "My World Is Empty Without You" and it was almost like 2 different groups."[/QUOTE]

You’re right "Waiting...”
I’m convinced that “My World...” stalled at #5 on the [[pop) charts because of the poor mix of Mary and Flo on the backing vocals. Just listen to the 2012 remix on the expanded “I Hear A Symphony” album. That’s how the single should have been issued.

[sup_fan]

It's too bad that, on so many [[not all, but a great many) of the airplay singles, Flo and Mary were made to sing in unison rather than to harmonize.

I think part of the reason the harmonies were skipped was the speed with which they were doing things. if you read the liner notes and the recording dates, M and F would come in and record many songs all in one day. In the effort to crank out as much content as possible, i think the producers decided to forego complex background vocals just so they could complete songs faster.

Also a key component of HDH productions was it's simplicity. catchy lyrics, extremely "singable" melodies for lead and backgrounds.

So i don't think it was meant as a slight to M or F. Especially given that producers did a lot of 3 part work for them on Sam Cooke, Country, Liverpool, There's a Place, R&H.

[marv2]

I think part of the reason the harmonies were skipped was the speed with which they were doing things. if you read the liner notes and the recording dates, M and F would come in and record many songs all in one day. In the effort to crank out as much content as possible, i think the producers decided to forego complex background vocals just so they could complete songs faster.

Also a key component of HDH productions was it's simplicity. catchy lyrics, extremely "singable" melodies for lead and backgrounds.

So i don't think it was meant as a slight to M or F. Especially given that producers did a lot of 3 part work for them on Sam Cooke, Country, Liverpool, There's a Place, R&H.

I still hated that they destroyed that, those great, great harmonies. I receive more listening pleasure when the harmonies are present. Take for instance "Nothing But Heartaches" the backing vocals are almost being shouted. They sound good but not as good as their harmonies on their earlier recordings.

[midnightman]

The times the three of them harmonize together, you knew they were made for each other.

They're the founding mothers of the Supremes. Period. Anyone that came after them had big shoes to fill and they couldn't fill them, sorry.

[marv2]

Etta James, who knew all three Supremes said that she could not understand why they were "singing like that" , like here in this video. She knew they all had great, powerful voices and thought that they should have been doing more Soulful material, but that is not what Motown wanted out of them.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Etta James, who knew all three Supremes said that she could not understand why they were "singing like that" , like here in this video. She knew they all had great, powerful voices and thought that they should have been doing more Soulful material, but that is not what Motown wanted out of them.

Coming from Etta James, that is like high praise! If she felt they were capable of doing more soulful material, that's like WOW! Really nice to hear her praising their voices.

[marv2]

Listen to this:

[jobucats]

I've said it before, and I'll say it now. All of the examples given above [[except My World) demonstrate the beautiful harmonies which these three ladies provided. Florence and Mary were excellent background singers; I love their voices and their roles. The song, "My World is Empty Without You", although I love it, is a composition that does not lend to having background vocals [[with the exception of some light oooo's). In hindsight, I believe it should have been shelved or even assigned to another artist because it doesn't work as a Supremes release if one is looking to hear all three adequately [[a lead singer and background vocals). There was no way at that time that it would be released as a 'Diana Ross' single. The background voices, very low in the released editions) are placed there to say that it is a Supremes [[group) recording. The background parts, not to the fault of Mary and Florence, are more of a distraction than an enhancement to the song. Every live performance I have ever heard of this song by the Supremes heightened the distracting background vocal lines. Again, it's not that Mary and Florence are not good singers; it's just that their contribution [[via the arrangers and producers) was needed.

Should the background vocals level been moved up in the mix? NO!

[Bluebrock]

I've said it before, and I'll say it now. All of the examples given above [[except My World) demonstrate the beautiful harmonies which these three ladies provided. Florence and Mary were excellent background singers; I love their voices and their roles. The song, "My World is Empty Without You", although I love it, is a composition that does not lend to having background vocals [[with the exception of some light oooo's). In hindsight, I believe it should have been shelved or even assigned to another artist because it doesn't work as a Supremes release if one is looking to hear all three adequately [[a lead singer and background vocals). There was no way at that time that it would be released as a 'Diana Ross' single. The background voices, very low in the released editions) are placed there to say that it is a Supremes [[group) recording. The background parts, not to the fault of Mary and Florence, are more of a distraction than an enhancement to the song. Every live performance I have ever heard of this song by the Supremes heightened the distracting background vocal lines. Again, it's not that Mary and Florence are not good singers; it's just that their contribution [[via the arrangers and producers) was needed.

Should the background vocals level been moved up in the mix. NO!

My world is empty without you is my favorite Supremes single. I just love it the way it is. It is perfect to my ears.

[jobucats]

My world is empty without you is my favorite Supremes single. I just love it the way it is. It is perfect to my ears.

I love the released version also; but in response to some others' opinions, I don't believe the background vocals should have been any higher in the mix; and I don't believe 'it's shame' one doesn't hear Mary and Florence more distinctively on this particular output. This one worked for what it was.

[sup_fan]

I love the released version also; but in response to some others' opinions, I don't believe the background vocals should have been any higher in the mix; and I don't believe 'it's shame' one doesn't hear Mary and Florence more distinctively on this particular output. This one worked for what it was.

I think HDH was going for an amazing effect here. M and F are almost like ghostly voices. Haunting. lingering in the background. While they're not loud, they're high impact. it adds to the desperation of the song

[lucky2012]

My world is empty without you is my favorite Supremes single. I just love it the way it is. It is perfect to my ears.

I love the released version also.This one worked for what it was.

I agree with both above. I love the recording as it is and for what it was and is. One of the best Supremes and Motown singles ever. Diana Ross is superb on it and HDH production is amazing.

[captainjames]

I can't argue with history, I say keep it the way it was released. PERFECTION

[sup_fan]

one more thought

if low background vocals were to blame for a song not going #1, then how do you explain You Can't Hurry Love? the single version is very hard to hear. they come up a little more at the first part of the chorus when all 3 girls are singing together. but then drop way down again. Yet it not only went #1 but was one of the biggest singles

[luke]

I love the vocals on the newer mix. Stronger “I need you babe “ emphasizes the whole theme of the song.

[marv2]

I love the vocals on the newer mix. Stronger “I need you babe “ emphasizes the whole theme of the song.

Some Oldies stations replaced the original versions with the remixed versions from "The #!'s" that came out around 2002.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Because Diana's voice was the one that mattered. Next?

[marv2]

Because Diana's voice was the one that mattered. Next?

Then why hasn't it mattered for the last 35 years or so?

[vgalindo]

Then why hasn't it mattered for the last 35 years or so?

We’ll if you want to go there. Why hasn’t it mattered for Mary for the last 50 years! Lol

[Roberta75]

We’ll if you want to go there. Why hasn’t it mattered for Mary for the last 50 years! Lol

And apart from dutiful wifey Lukia he Marv hasnt mattered in sixty years. LMAO

[jobeterob]

And apart from dutiful wifey Lukia he Marv hasnt mattered in sixty years. LMAO

What? They are partners?

[sup_fan]

from what we've read, IHAS was cranked out in just a matter of days. The track was cut on 9/22, strings added 9/28, lead vocals added 9/29 and then released on 10/6.

so probably in the interest of time they just did what they did

I do really like how the track modulates through keys. adds a level of sophistication. and how the instruments build in the backing track too after the bridge. that's where the addition of some harmonies would have worked great. during the verse "those tears that filled my eyes, i cry not for myself..."

[marv2]

from what we've read, IHAS was cranked out in just a matter of days. The track was cut on 9/22, strings added 9/28, lead vocals added 9/29 and then released on 10/6.

so probably in the interest of time they just did what they did

I do really like how the track modulates through keys. adds a level of sophistication. and how the instruments build in the backing track too after the bridge. that's where the addition of some harmonies would have worked great. during the verse "those tears that filled my eyes, i cry not for myself..."

That was Berry Gordy and his "assembly line" mentality. I think they were turning them out [[especially albums), too fast in the sixties. Two, maybe three albums a yearj was a little too much. I remember in the late sixties it seems as if the Temptations had a new single every 2 months!

[jobucats]

from what we've read, IHAS was cranked out in just a matter of days. The track was cut on 9/22, strings added 9/28, lead vocals added 9/29 and then released on 10/6.

so probably in the interest of time they just did what they did

I do really like how the track modulates through keys. adds a level of sophistication. and how the instruments build in the backing track too after the bridge. that's where the addition of some harmonies would have worked great. during the verse "those tears that filled my eyes, i cry not for myself..."

"I Hear a Symphony" is such a great masterpiece. With the exception of the "B" section [[or bridge) near the beginning of the song [["I'm lost in a world.....", the composition is structurally monotonous. This accounts for the lyrics being difficult to memorize [[as evidenced in the Mike Douglas live performance)...the same melody is being sung over and over but with different lyrics which don't really tell a story; however, just spouts out words of affection and love. HDH did make sure that the track modulated upwards in key to add intensity and interest to the song [[as sup_fan stated). Although, I can't imagine how this classic would have been any better, it still would be interesting, as sup_fan suggested, to experience some actual harmonies in the background vocals.

[sup_fan]

i'd love the hear a version of Symphony with all of the music and instrument tracks unmuted. see what they might have pulled out at different points

for instance, there are the wonderful horn flourishes in verse 1 after the say I Hear A Symphony [[0:26) and again at 0:39. but then they don't appear later in the song

during verse 2 the piano is prominent

and during the live versions [[especially on TCB) the strings do these amazing runs during version 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmtvkBTTU2o

[sup_fan]

it is a very interesting song, from a structure perspective, within the supremes catalog. It's essentially 3 large verses. there's a bridge between verse 1 and 2 and then the modulations during 2 leads to 3. and you're right. there really isn't a story. more of a poem

Intro
You've given me a true love and ev'ry day I thank you love
For a feeling that's so new, so inviting, so exciting


Verse 1
Whenever you are near, I hear a symphony
A tender melody pulling me closer, closer to your arms
Then suddenly, oh, your lips are touching mine
A feeling so divine 'til I leave the past behind
[[leading into bridge) I'm lost in a world made for you and me


Verse 2
Whenever you are near I hear a symphony
play sweet and tenderly
Ev'ry time your lips meet mine my baby
Baby, baby, I feel a joy within
Don't let this feeling end
Let it go on and on and on now baby
Baby, baby, those tears that fill my eyes
I care not for myself but for those
Who've never felt the joy we've felt

Verse 3
Whenever you are near
I hear a symphony each time you speak to me
I hear a tender rhapsody of love, love
Baby, baby, as you stand up holding me
Whispering how much you care
A thousand violins fill the air now
Baby, baby, don't let this moment end
Keep standing close to me
Oh so close to me, baby, baby

[[ending) Baby, baby, I hear a symphony, a tender melody
Ah it goes on and on

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

it is a very interesting song, from a structure perspective, within the supremes catalog. It's essentially 3 large verses. there's a bridge between verse 1 and 2 and then the modulations during 2 leads to 3. and you're right. there really isn't a story. more of a poem

Intro
You've given me a true love and ev'ry day I thank you love
For a feeling that's so new, so inviting, so exciting


Verse 1
Whenever you are near, I hear a symphony
A tender melody pulling me closer, closer to your arms
Then suddenly, oh, your lips are touching mine
A feeling so divine 'til I leave the past behind
[[leading into bridge) I'm lost in a world made for you and me


Verse 2
Whenever you are near I hear a symphony
play sweet and tenderly
Ev'ry time your lips meet mine my baby
Baby, baby, I feel a joy within
Don't let this feeling end
Let it go on and on and on now baby
Baby, baby, those tears that fill my eyes
I care not for myself but for those
Who've never felt the joy we've felt

Verse 3
Whenever you are near
I hear a symphony each time you speak to me
I hear a tender rhapsody of love, love
Baby, baby, as you stand up holding me
Whispering how much you care
A thousand violins fill the air now
Baby, baby, don't let this moment end
Keep standing close to me
Oh so close to me, baby, baby

[[ending) Baby, baby, I hear a symphony, a tender melody
Ah it goes on and on

This is what I call a "Bulldozer" song. Just what you described. A song that more or less repeats the same musical pattern with no deviations, no turns. Like a bulldozer, it just keeps rolling along, picking up a certain kind of momentum by sheer force. Chris Clark's "It Must Be Love" is another example.

[PeaceNHarmony]

This is what I call a "Bulldozer" song. Just what you described. A song that more or less repeats the same musical pattern with no deviations, no turns. Like a bulldozer, it just keeps rolling along, picking up a certain kind of momentum by sheer force. Chris Clark's "It Must Be Love" is another example.

Ha! I would not call IHAS a 'bulldozer' but I can't argue with your logic! It does indeed capture the listener 'by sheer force' and Diana's iconic delivery.

[midnightman]

I Hear a Symphony is just one of those chilling songs... HDH were at the heights of their songwriting powers with that one! Just like Michael Jackson used to say about "I'll Be There", I Hear a Symphony was the type of song that said "the Supremes are here to stay" even though they had already scored a bunch of hits before that. This type of song is what separated the Supremes from every other vocal group of the time.

[RanRan79]

I think "My World" really does work best with the backgrounds buried. It adds to the dark feel, as said previously. But I think most of the Flo singles have the background vocals perfectly audible and harmonizing. And there's a very important reason why the background mics are almost always turned down: because the backing vocals are not supposed to drown out or be on par with the lead vocal. There are times in various groups- including the Supremes- where the background mics were as loud as the lead and it could be a bit distracting or jarring. Lowering the backing mics is standard practice.

[floyjoy678]

I think "My World" really does work best with the backgrounds buried. It adds to the dark feel, as said previously. But I think most of the Flo singles have the background vocals perfectly audible and harmonizing. And there's a very important reason why the background mics are almost always turned down: because the backing vocals are not supposed to drown out or be on par with the lead vocal. There are times in various groups- including the Supremes- where the background mics were as loud as the lead and it could be a bit distracting or jarring. Lowering the backing mics is standard practice.

I agree that the backgrounds being low on "My World " works with the mood of the song, I do think they could have been turned up just a notch. After this, several of the songs had low backgrounds such as "You Can't Hurry Love" [[I wonder if this was done due to Flo allegedly not being there) and they were pretty low on "Love Is Here" too. Flo is quoted as to saying she was upset because the backgrounds were so low on "You Can't Hurry Love " but I think whoever quoted her mistook her for "You Keep Me Hanging On" which cuts about half of Mary and Flo's vocals out from what was originally recorded.

[RanRan79]

I agree that the backgrounds being low on "My World " works with the mood of the song, I do think they could have been turned up just a notch. After this, several of the songs had low backgrounds such as "You Can't Hurry Love" [[I wonder if this was done due to Flo allegedly not being there) and they were pretty low on "Love Is Here" too. Flo is quoted as to saying she was upset because the backgrounds were so low on "You Can't Hurry Love " but I think whoever quoted her mistook her for "You Keep Me Hanging On" which cuts about half of Mary and Flo's vocals out from what was originally recorded.

I do think "Hurry"'s backing vocals are buried in the mix to possibly hide this difference in sound, but I don't think the background on "Love Is Here" is too low. To the contrary, I think Flo and Mary are integral parts of the entire production. The song doesn't work as well without their contribution. And "Hangin On" is one of the all time best examples of how fantastic Flo and Mary on the background of the singles. It's another one where I don't think the song would've worked as well without them.

[sup_fan]

I've wondered that too about You Can't Hurry Love. according to the liner notes on A Go Go EE, the lead and background vocals were recorded on 7/5/66. on 7/4 M and D showed up to record and Flo didn't. They recorded What becomes of the broken hearted with D doing lead and then D and M doing background. I'm guessing that they had more songs lined up but simply decided to postpone the sessions until the next day when either 1) flo showed up or 2) they could get marlene in.

the notes state that on 7/5 they recorded YCHL with marlene

So i do wonder if they were a little nervous can kept the BG vocals low. but then again, they'd already added the A's to songs like Stop, the entire Xmas album and others. so i can't believe they were too scared of this.

as for YKMHO, i know that the BG vocals pretty much sing for the entire song. But that was also a common recording tactic - the producer would have someone perform the entire song and then only use the pieces as needed. like he might have a sax player do a solo for the entire song but then only use the performance on the bridge. I do think that the entire BG vocals on this song make it too much.

[floyjoy678]

as for YKMHO, i know that the BG vocals pretty much sing for the entire song. But that was also a common recording tactic - the producer would have someone perform the entire song and then only use the pieces as needed. like he might have a sax player do a solo for the entire song but then only use the performance on the bridge. I do think that the entire BG vocals on this song make it too much.

I thought they should have left in Mary and Flo's "set me free why don't ya babe"s at the end. I could understand muting them for the first chorus and verse. But muting them for the last verse and chorus again was a bit much. They were clearly trying to push Diana Ross, the solo star, on this one. In fact wasn't this potentially going to be the Supremes swan song?