Top Billing For Diana Ross On The Supremes’ Psychedelic ‘Reflections’

[milven]

It was this week in 1967 that the Supremes debuted as Diana Ross & the Supremes with REFLECTIONS, with a psychedelic intro. [[I remember Diana describing the sound as mechanical in a blue box set where all the artists' intro'd their songs with a little story.) This article also says that HDH happened to overhear Russ Terrana using a tone generator to tune the studio. It inspired them to put its “bleeping” oscillator effect onto the intro of the already brooding and experimental ‘Reflections.’

Flo was on the record, but no longer in the group when it was released. The song would have gone to number one, but some guy jumped off the Tallahassee bridge and Reflections stalled at Number 2

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stori...c-reflections/

[reese]

It was this week in 1967 that the Supremes debuted as Diana Ross & the Supremes with REFLECTIONS, with a psychedelic intro. [[I remember Diana describing the sound as mechanical in a blue box set where all the artists' intro'd their songs with a little story.) This article also says that HDH happened to overhear Russ Terrana using a tone generator to tune the studio. It inspired them to put its “bleeping” oscillator effect onto the intro of the already brooding and experimental ‘Reflections.’

Flo was on the record, but no longer in the group when it was released. The song would have gone to number one, but some guy jumped off the Tallahassee bridge and Reflections stalled at Number 2

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stori...c-reflections/

Actually it was Mary who did the intro for REFLECTIONS on THE MOTOWN STORY. She said something about the writers being influenced by the Beatles and said it was "a weird, weird song."

[milven]

Actually it was Mary who did the intro for REFLECTIONS on THE MOTOWN STORY. She said something about the writers being influenced by the Beatles and said it was "a weird, weird song."

You are right. Every new day seems to bring me closer to senility. In my mind, I thought it was Diana, but it is on You Tube and it is Mary who says "mechanical". Thanks

[TheMotownManiac]

You are right. Every new day seems to bring me closer to senility. In my mind, I thought it was Diana, but it is on You Tube and it is Mary who says "mechanical". Thanks

When you completely reach senility, have the desk buzz me and I will show you around… The best part is people don’t expect so much, the worst part is you start confusing diana ross and mary wilson!

[144man]

When you completely reach senility, have the desk buzz me and I will show you around… The best part is people don’t expect so much, the worst part is you start confusing diana ross and mary wilson!

I could never confuse Diana Wilson and Mary Ross

[milven]

When you completely reach senility, have the desk buzz me and I will show you around… The best part is people don’t expect so much, the worst part is you start confusing diana ross and mary wilson!

Well, if I confused Diana with Mary, I guess I better have the desk buzz you now.

[drlorne]

"Every new day seems to bring me closer to senility." I love this. Except it's my husband who says it to me.

[sup_fan]

Also there is speculation as to whether or not it’s Flo on the record

[bradsupremes]

Also there is speculation as to whether or not it’s Flo on the record

This has been discussed before. The article is wrong in stating Flo is on "Reflections." She's not. It's Mary and Marlene Barrow. It's very obvious when you isolate the vocals.

[TheMotownManiac]

This has been discussed before. The article is wrong in stating Flo is on "Reflections." She's not. It's Mary and Marlene Barrow. It's very obvious when you isolate the vocals.

initially, in Soul Magazine 1967, it was stated Flo is on the song but i’ll Be damned if I hear her. I don’t miss Flo on you can’t hurry love, but I absolutely cannot stand the background vocals on reflection because she’s not on there…… It needs her voice badly. Mary and Flo were the best, Mary and Marlene were great but, ultimately no one can replace Mary & Flo as has been beaten to death here. This record, to me, suffers horribly because the heaviness of Marlene’s voice muddies Mary’s thick, rich velvet. There’s no one to cut through and, In my opinion, that’s A contributing factor as to why it didn’t get to number one.

[floyjoy678]

For those of you on here who are in touch with Mary, have any of you asked her about who's on Reflections and You Can't Hurry Love. I find it odd that it's only outsiders speculation and none of the people directly involved have never said anything about it.

[bradsupremes]

For those of you on here who are in touch with Mary, have any of you asked her about who's on Reflections and You Can't Hurry Love. I find it odd that it's only outsiders speculation and none of the people directly involved have never said anything about it.

Mary will never publicly admit Flo isn't on "You Can't Hurry Love" and "Reflections," two of their biggest hits, but then again she may not fully remember. She'll assume it's Flo because those tracks were cut when she was still in the group.

The answer lies on the tape. The soprano is not Flo.

[marv2]

For those of you on here who are in touch with Mary, have any of you asked her about who's on Reflections and You Can't Hurry Love. I find it odd that it's only outsiders speculation and none of the people directly involved have never said anything about it.

In her book "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme", Mary said that the only two hits that she and Florence were not on were "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together". Those two songs were also the only ones mentioned in her lawsuit with Motown.

[luke]

Didn’t Flo recall recording Reflections and knew all the words when it was released?

[marv2]

Didn’t Flo recall recording Reflections and knew all the words when it was released?

Yes, she was even witnessed singing along to it note by note.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Psychedelic. And, a psychotic reaction from some fans that continues to this day.

[floyjoy678]

Psychedelic. And, a psychotic reaction from some fans that continues to this day.

I needed a good laugh. Thank you.

[khansperac]

Weren’t pictures of Florence on the original design of the album cover? If so, then she must have been still recording up to that point. Anyone know the recording dates and the date she left the group?

[marv2]

Weren’t pictures of Florence on the original design of the album cover? If so, then she must have been still recording up to that point. Anyone know the recording dates and the date she left the group?

The song was recorded on March 2 and May 9, 1967. Florence was in the group until July 1, 1967.

[milven]

The album had Flo on the cover when it was first released. I may have even had that album, but a few years later, I replaced all my mono Supremes with stereo.

In another thread, I half-jokingly said that I am going senile. So I am not trusting my memory so I just checked Wikipedia and found this:

the album cover included three photos with Ballard but it was quickly replaced with the cover featuring just Ross, Wilson and Birdsong. A photo of the original album cover can be found on Motown 45 rpm promotional sleeves issued in early 1968

[marv2]

The album had Flo on the cover when it was first released. I may have even had that album, but a few years later, I replaced all my mono Supremes with stereo.

In another thread, I half-jokingly said that I am going senile. So I am not trusting my memory so I just checked Wikipedia and found this:

the album cover included three photos with Ballard but it was quickly replaced with the cover featuring just Ross, Wilson and Birdsong. A photo of the original album cover can be found on Motown 45 rpm promotional sleeves issued in early 1968

I held the actually original album cover mock up for "Reflections" in my hands at Hitsville way back in 1986. They took scissors and cut Flo out of the pictures of the Supremes prior to Cindy Birdsong joining. They actually used stencils and no.2 pencils to draw out that kaleidoscope you see on the finished printed album cover. They glued the photos onto the cardboard before sending it to the printers.

[milven]

Can anyone tell if this is the original cover with Flo? I can't tell

[reese]

Can anyone tell if this is the original cover with Flo? I can't tell

No. There are no Flo photos on this cover. Some of the photos here did have Flo in them, but she was cropped out.

[bradsupremes]

"Reflections" band track was cut March 2, 1967. In that same session, HDH cut "The Happening" and an unused "In And Out Of Love" track. Diana, Mary & Marlene added their vocals to "Reflections" on May 9th.

People need to remember this. The weeks leading up to early May were incredibly shaky for Flo. She had missed several performances causing Marlene Barrow to step in and then Cindy at the Hollywood Bowl. There was the meeting at Gordy's mansion. Maybe she didn't want to be part of the session or maybe she wasn't told about it. Maybe Gordy excluded her as punishment. Who knows? But for whatever reasons, Flo is not on "Reflections." You have some people who will take Mary's word that she was there. You also have Louvain Demps say the Andantes recorded the backgrounds. The two narratives contradict the other. As I said earlier, the answer lies on the tape. I will take the actual tangible, audible proof. She's not there.

[marv2]

I don't know what Louvain Demps is talking about,but this is Mary Wilson on this record loud and clear. I will only believe Mary Wilson.......because she was there!

[marv2]

For years people swore that Florence was not on "My World Is Empty Without You" and that it was Marlene Barrow singing back up with Mary Wilson. That was not true at all. It is Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson alone on the background. You can even hear Flo say "Let's hear that back" at the end of the song here:

[Ollie9]

The background vocals other then on the No 1's is so minimal i don't think it matters who was singing background quite frankly. It's all about the song itself and Diana's voice. Her voice sounds far more mature then on any other Supremes single up to that point. If the song is strong, receives decent airplay and you have a great lead vocalist, as on "Love Child" the song will be a hit regardless of who is supplying the ooohs and ahhhhs.........imo

[PeaceNHarmony]

The background vocals other then on the No 1's is so minimal i don't think it matters who was singing background quite frankly. It's all about the song itself and Diana's voice. Her voice sounds far more mature then on any other Supremes single up to that point. If the song is strong, receives decent airplay and you have a great lead vocalist, as on "Love Child" the song will be a hit regardless of who is supplying the ooohs and ahhhhs.........imo

Unfortunate but very true. We all would have preferred that M & F had sustained through and after Diana's departure [[even though we LOVE Cindy!) but that didn't happen and as we have learned the backgrounds were as often as not, not M, F, or C. Just the way it is.

[144man]

I've listened and listened and tried as hard as I can, but I just don't have the ability to definitively identify the individual voices of the backing singers.

[RanRan79]

I've listened and listened and tried as hard as I can, but I just don't have the ability to definitively identify the individual voices of the backing singers.

To my ears on the #1s collection it's definitely Mary. Sounds like Florence, particularly after Diana sings "all the tears that I've tasted, all in vain..." and the background comes in with what is indecipherable lyrics to me, that sounds like Florence. I would not be shocked to learn that it's Marlene, however.

I'll wait on further information from the guys with the goods when the Reflections expanded is released. I generally trust their word. To Marv's point he's right, for many years "My World Is Empty" was credited to Mary and an Andante. As far as I can tell that info hit the streets via JRandyT's CHMR, and it's very possible that he was relayed information that mixed up "My World" with "Hurry Love". Still, because the backgrounds on the original version of "My World" were so mixed in with the orchestra, everybody ran with it as fact until the guys with the goods produced the elevated backing vocals to the song on the Symphony expanded edition, hopefully teaching us all the lesson of not believing everything you read.

Regarding Ollie's point, ultimately the enjoyment of any Supremes song shouldn't hinge on who is in the background or not. And I think to most fans of the group the enjoyment of any particular song is unaffected by rumors or confirmed revelations of who or who isn't in the background. However, as a huge Florence Ballard fan, I do want people to be careful with her legacy. If she isn't on a song, it is what it is. But if she's there and people are screaming that she isn't, that someone is diminishing Florence's work and her contribution to the group [[some unintentional, others intentionally so), as it would to any singer, group or solo, who is being erased from credit for a song.

I've seen internet debates about Diana Ross not singing lead on "Let Me Go the Right Way". Lets pretend that it comes out that it somehow wasn't Ross, for fans of "Right Way" this knowledge should change nothing as far as song enjoyment. Of course in reality we know it was Diana, so to suggests that it isn't her is a discredit, even if we would still dig the song anyway.

So I get the point that is often made in this forum ad nauseam that Diana's lead is the key to what makes a particular song so enjoyable, but I think credit should be given where it's due even if you think the credit isn't important. So until the guys with the masters and notes within reach confirm who it is, I'll stick to crediting the song to Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard. Anything else is internet gossip as far as I'm concerned.

[vgalindo]

To my ears on the #1s collection it's definitely Mary. Sounds like Florence, particularly after Diana sings "all the tears that I've tasted, all in vain..." and the background comes in with what is indecipherable lyrics to me, that sounds like Florence. I would not be shocked to learn that it's Marlene, however.

I'll wait on further information from the guys with the goods when the Reflections expanded is released. I generally trust their word. To Marv's point he's right, for many years "My World Is Empty" was credited to Mary and an Andante. As far as I can tell that info hit the streets via JRandyT's CHMR, and it's very possible that he was relayed information that mixed up "My World" with "Hurry Love". Still, because the backgrounds on the original version of "My World" were so mixed in with the orchestra, everybody ran with it as fact until the guys with the goods produced the elevated backing vocals to the song on the Symphony expanded edition, hopefully teaching us all the lesson of not believing everything you read.

Regarding Ollie's point, ultimately the enjoyment of any Supremes song shouldn't hinge on who is in the background or not. And I think to most fans of the group the enjoyment of any particular song is unaffected by rumors or confirmed revelations of who or who isn't in the background. However, as a huge Florence Ballard fan, I do want people to be careful with her legacy. If she isn't on a song, it is what it is. But if she's there and people are screaming that she isn't, that someone is diminishing Florence's work and her contribution to the group [[some unintentional, others intentionally so), as it would to any singer, group or solo, who is being erased from credit for a song.

I've seen internet debates about Diana Ross not singing lead on "Let Me Go the Right Way". Lets pretend that it comes out that it somehow wasn't Ross, for fans of "Right Way" this knowledge should change nothing as far as song enjoyment. Of course in reality we know it was Diana, so to suggests that it isn't her is a discredit, even if we would still dig the song anyway.

So I get the point that is often made in this forum ad nauseam that Diana's lead is the key to what makes a particular song so enjoyable, but I think credit should be given where it's due even if you think the credit isn't important. So until the guys with the masters and notes within reach confirm who it is, I'll stick to crediting the song to Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard. Anything else is internet gossip as far as I'm concerned.

Well the guys who do the expanded editions George and Andy stated a few years ago that Mary and Florence were not on the single release of “Stop in the name of love”. There were people on this forum that said they were lying and didn’t believe them. The guys said it made fans upset and they would not be revealing any new information on who was on the backgrounds. I think it is quite sad that some fans don’t want the truth. It doesn’t change the fact that these are great classic records no matter who was doing the background.

[RanRan79]

Well the guys who do the expanded editions George and Andy stated a few years ago that Mary and Florence were not on the single release of “Stop in the name of love”. There were people on this forum that said they were lying and didn’t believe them. The guys said it made fans upset and they would not be revealing any new information on who was on the backgrounds. I think it is quite sad that some fans don’t want the truth. It doesn’t change the fact that these are great classic records no matter who was doing the background.

Yet apparently they broke that rule when they told us Flo was indeed on "My World" but she wasn't on some tracks during the A Go Go sessions. While I do think some fans need to check themselves and not get so riled up by something so trivial in our lives, part of the problem is what I stated in my post that you replied to: there are people who make it a point to belittle, discredit and marginalize Flo and Mary's contributions to the group. Some do it because they love Diana and apparently are insecure in her indisputable contributions to the group, while others do it because they enjoy the reaction they get from others. And as a result, some fans become a tad bit too intense in asserting Flo and Mary's legacies. For historical purposes I love the truth, whether Flo and/or Mary are present or absent. But I prefer factual information and not...and I really hesitate to use this but here I go...fake news.

[marv2]

Well the guys who do the expanded editions George and Andy stated a few years ago that Mary and Florence were not on the single release of “Stop in the name of love”. There were people on this forum that said they were lying and didn’t believe them. The guys said it made fans upset and they would not be revealing any new information on who was on the backgrounds. I think it is quite sad that some fans don’t want the truth. It doesn’t change the fact that these are great classic records no matter who was doing the background.

Well ALL of the Supremes are on the released version of "Stop In the Name of Love". The Andantes sang some of the background WITH Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard! Are we done yet?

[RanRan79]

Well ALL of the Supremes are on the released version of "Stop In the Name of Love". The Andantes sang some of the background WITH Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard! Are we done yet?

I'll be surprised if you hear any more about it. Folks were rolling over in their makeshift graves as soon as George posted that.

[vgalindo]

Well ALL of the Supremes are on the released version of "Stop In the Name of Love". The Andantes sang some of the background WITH Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard! Are we done yet?

Yes Marv. We are done. I will always take George’s and Andy’s word. But what has never been in question is the lead of Diana Ross! Lol

[floyjoy678]

It even almost sounds like Mary is doing both the top and bottom harmony on Reflections. They don't sound too good overall on the song whoever's doing them. I'm sure it had to do with the fact that they weren't sure of the group's fate at this point. They were able to get Flo back for Sullivan and the Copa but I believe at this point they weren't sure how much further she'd be willing to go.

I'm still not completely convinced Flo isn't on You Can't Hurry Love [[and Misery).

[luke]

Well said. As Mary and Flo being 2 Supremes and have said they both had sung on Reflections .I think I will listen to to them...duh. We all love the records. But it’s nice to know if the Supremes were singing on their records. Beatles fans thought they knew who were on the records...not Stu Suthcliffe, Andy White, etc etc. Hello???

[bradsupremes]

The answer is on the tape. When you have audible proof, all word and hearsay doesn’t have weight. The fact is it is Diana, Mary & Marlene on “Reflections,” “You Can’t Hurry Love,” and a handful of other recordings. I stand by that fact because the tape backs me up.

[RanRan79]

The answer is on the tape. When you have audible proof, all word and hearsay doesn’t have weight. The fact is it is Diana, Mary & Marlene on “Reflections,” “You Can’t Hurry Love,” and a handful of other recordings. I stand by that fact because the tape backs me up.

I'm confused Brad. What tape are you talking about? Do you mean cassette tape or are you using "tape" as in the music, the record, the audio period? I don't want to respond without a full understanding.

[bradsupremes]

I'm confused Brad. What tape are you talking about? Do you mean cassette tape or are you using "tape" as in the music, the record, the audio period? I don't want to respond without a full understanding.

The master tape. The one that was rolling as it recorded the song. The answer is on that multitrack master tape. Isolate the background and you'll hear it.

[RanRan79]

The master tape. The one that was rolling as it recorded the song. The answer is on that multitrack master tape. Isolate the background and you'll hear it.

Thanks for the clarification. I was like what does he mean the tape?

Well I don't have the master so I can only go by the audio I have access to, and me thinks it's Flo but find it possible that it might be Marlene. When the guys with the goods say yea or nay officially, so will it be in my book of Supremes facts, in the way I have officially labeled "Stop In the Name of Love", the girls' fourth #1 hit, as the Supremes with the Andantes.

Btw, you can expect my book of Supremes facts to hit the streets on the 34th of January next year. Taking preorders soon.

[marv2]

Does anyone know what Marlene Barrow sounds like? I don't know.

[bradsupremes]

Does anyone know what Marlene Barrow sounds like? I don't know.

I do. She sings the intro on PJ’s “T.L.C. [[Tender Lovin’ Care)” and she’s the prominent soprano on the Supremes’ version of “His Love Makes Me Beautiful.”

[marv2]

I do. She sings the intro on PJ’s “T.L.C. [[Tender Lovin’ Care)” and she’s the prominent soprano on the Supremes’ version of “His Love Makes Me Beautiful.”

Could those recordings be any more obscure?

[blackguy69]

Marv this is one argument you’re going to loose

Could those recordings be any more obscure?

[marv2]

Marv this is one argument you’re going to loose

What argument? I'm not arguing about anything. What are you talking about?

[RanRan79]

Does anyone know what Marlene Barrow sounds like? I don't know.

My understanding is that she's the top harmony in the Andantes. Her voice does have similar sound to Florence's.

[floyjoy678]

Did anyone notice how drastically Flo's voice had changed during this period in '67? It definitely was not the same, strong soprano from 1965. I wonder had she continued in the group, would she have been able to continue taking the top harmony.

[marv2]

Did anyone notice how drastically Flo's voice had changed during this period in '67? It definitely was not the same, strong soprano from 1965. I wonder had she continued in the group, would she have been able to continue taking the top harmony.

She was smoking. They all smoked.

[blackguy69]

Do you think her voice dramatically change?

She was smoking. They all smoked.