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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    I agree. I never cared for any live rendition of "Love Child." Mary and Cindy just couldn't seem to get the hang of the pace of the song especially on "Wait, why you wait, now hold on." It always seemed like they were rushing it. They never fully could capture the rhythm and pace of it. It just seems off.
    You're right and also one thing that bothered me was there were several points of the song where the Andantes would harmonized where Mary and Cindy would sing in unison instead. It seemed sloppy and lazy. You'd think with them not being on the song, they'd try to replicate as best as they could.

  2. #102
    I, too, never liked the live version of "Love Child". The tempo is always taken at breakneck speed. It's a wonder that Diana, Mary, or Cindy could ever keep up vocally at that horrendous pace.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    You're right and also one thing that bothered me was there were several points of the song where the Andantes would harmonized where Mary and Cindy would sing in unison instead. It seemed sloppy and lazy. You'd think with them not being on the song, they'd try to replicate as best as they could.
    That would be hard for them to do with just two voices vs the three or four used in the studio.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    You're right and also one thing that bothered me was there were several points of the song where the Andantes would harmonized where Mary and Cindy would sing in unison instead. It seemed sloppy and lazy. You'd think with them not being on the song, they'd try to replicate as best as they could.
    I thought this thread was kinda treading old ground yet again, but there's something in this comment that IS kinda new, at least to me. For years, all I'd hear and read was the perception that the Marvelettes were the only female group at Motown to be subbed out by the Andantes. And the reasoning was that their harmonies weren't up to snuff. I always knew that was baloney, but with this thread and many others I've come across here over the years, I thought- AT LAST! People with ears and common sense! At last, it is becoming more and more common knowledge that the same thing happened with nearly as much frequency with The Vandellas and The Supremes. Interesting to read about Cindy and Mary singing singing in unison when performing "Love Child" live...

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    I thought this thread was kinda treading old ground yet again, but there's something in this comment that IS kinda new, at least to me. For years, all I'd hear and read was the perception that the Marvelettes were the only female group at Motown to be subbed out by the Andantes. And the reasoning was that their harmonies weren't up to snuff. I always knew that was baloney, but with this thread and many others I've come across here over the years, I thought- AT LAST! People with ears and common sense! At last, it is becoming more and more common knowledge that the same thing happened with nearly as much frequency with The Vandellas and The Supremes. Interesting to read about Cindy and Mary singing singing in unison when performing "Love Child" live...
    I too thought this was finished...but let the games carry on. The Motown girl groups succeeded largely on the basis of how they presented themselves before America to compliment the recordings released by the company which moved Motown beyond a regional record company buttonholed largely on the R&B charts... This is why the Philly artists didn't enjoy the widespread acclaim and longevity as did the Motown artists, despite the fact that the Philly product was arguably just as good...just not the same level of crossover acclaim and not as familiar in the mainstream media of television, film, and widespread culture as was the Motown brand...Obviously, the terrific Motown songs and tracks were great, and the identifiable lead singers were easily recognizable and outstanding. That said...with some of the groups, particularly the girl groups... their physical appearance and image (as evidenced by the close attention from Maxine Powell)was largely what sold them to the American public. Diana Ross on the Ed Sullivan show backed by The Andantes dressed in gowns would not have worked, and some of those songs recorded without the Andantes would not have worked either, at least not as well... The Andante's had the best voices and harmonization's of any of the female singers at Motown by far (and that includes The Supremes, The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes) and lent high end harmonies to some of the male groups as a balance. Lead singing and background work are two entirely different things. So is recording and performing on stage... At this stage, why anyone would second guess the legendary Motown producers, how they put their projects together, and the undeniable success of their product is puzzling, other than some folks who just don't understand the business and somehow seem insulted that the harsh reality of the music business is not what they perceived or wish to believe... Berry Gordy was in it to make money and succeed with the groups he virtually created and using the names he held the rights to use as he wished to give all the people he was responsible for the greatest chance for success...not to placate the erroneous fantasies from fans as to how the industry is supposed to operate...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-14-2019 at 02:57 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    I too thought this was finished...but let the games carry on. The Motown girl groups succeeded largely on the basis of how they presented themselves before America to compliment the recordings released by the company which moved Motown beyond a regional record company buttonholed largely on the R&B charts... This is why the Philly artists didn't enjoy the widespread acclaim and longevity as did the Motown artists, despite the fact that the Philly product was arguably just as good...just not the same level of crossover acclaim and not as familiar in the mainstream media of television and film as was the Motown brand...Obviously, the terrific Motown songs and tracks were great, and the identifiable lead singers were easily identifiable and outstanding. That said...with some of the groups, particularly the girl groups... their physical appearance and image (as evidenced by the close attention from Maxine Powell)was largely what sold them to the American public. Diana Ross on the Ed Sullivan show backed by The Andantes dressed in gowns would not have worked, and some of those songs recorded without the Andantes would not have worked either, at least not as well... The Andante's had the best voices and harmonization's of any of the female singers at Motown by far (and that includes The Supremes, The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes) and lent high end harmonies to some of the male groups as a balance. Lead singing and background work are two entirely different things. So is recording and performing on stage... At this stage, why anyone would second guess the legendary Motown producers, how they put their projects together, and the undeniable success of their product is puzzling, other than some folks who just don't understand the business and somehow seem insulted that the harsh reality of the music business is not what they perceived or wish to believe... Berry Gordy was in it to make money and succeed with the groups he virtually created and using the names he held the rights to use as he wished to give all the people he was responsible for the greatest chance for success...not to placate the erroneous fantasies from fans as to how the industry is supposed to operate...
    Stu, I couldn't have said it any better myself, Sir. Each and every point you just made in this post is, spot-on, the gospel truth.
    Motown maintained the highest of musical standards and, lucky for us, they remained true to those standards without fail.

  7. #107
    You nailed it,Stu.

  8. #108
    Stu...you answered that in a nutshell ..pity it wasnt at the top of this thread lol.

  9. #109
    Yah Stu !

    And many of the fantasies you mention were hatched 40 years after the fact

  10. #110
    Thanks guys... Seems pretty obvious what happened going back 60 years with the legacy created. Second guessing just makes no sense to me... Kinda like second guessing Red Auerbach's Celtic teams of the late 50's and 60's... They both did what worked...

  11. Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    I too thought this was finished...but let the games carry on. The Motown girl groups succeeded largely on the basis of how they presented themselves before America to compliment the recordings released by the company which moved Motown beyond a regional record company buttonholed largely on the R&B charts... This is why the Philly artists didn't enjoy the widespread acclaim and longevity as did the Motown artists, despite the fact that the Philly product was arguably just as good...just not the same level of crossover acclaim and not as familiar in the mainstream media of television, film, and widespread culture as was the Motown brand...Obviously, the terrific Motown songs and tracks were great, and the identifiable lead singers were easily recognizable and outstanding. That said...with some of the groups, particularly the girl groups... their physical appearance and image (as evidenced by the close attention from Maxine Powell)was largely what sold them to the American public. Diana Ross on the Ed Sullivan show backed by The Andantes dressed in gowns would not have worked, and some of those songs recorded without the Andantes would not have worked either, at least not as well... The Andante's had the best voices and harmonization's of any of the female singers at Motown by far (and that includes The Supremes, The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes) and lent high end harmonies to some of the male groups as a balance. Lead singing and background work are two entirely different things. So is recording and performing on stage... At this stage, why anyone would second guess the legendary Motown producers, how they put their projects together, and the undeniable success of their product is puzzling, other than some folks who just don't understand the business and somehow seem insulted that the harsh reality of the music business is not what they perceived or wish to believe... Berry Gordy was in it to make money and succeed with the groups he virtually created and using the names he held the rights to use as he wished to give all the people he was responsible for the greatest chance for success...not to placate the erroneous fantasies from fans as to how the industry is supposed to operate...
    Wow. One of the best posts I've ever enjoyed on this site, because it's factual. It's the nature of the business. As I got older and read more and more books, I came to realize pretty much all record companies and producers were doing the same thing. I'm not saying anything else (I can already feel about 30 paragraphs forming in my mind...) You said what counts.

  12. #112
    Amen to that, Stu! No offense to the Vandellas or Marvelletes, but sometimes their voices were a bit too shaky and unpolished for some of the songs! I saw an old video of Martha and the Vandellas singing “My Baby Loves Me” live on YouTube and thought to myself “No wonder they used the Andantes and Four Tops on that one”.

    As far as the Supremes are concerned, I always figured the Andantes were involved on their recordings strictly because Mary, Flo, or both were giving HDH fists during sessions and didn’t feel like dealing with them. I guess it was less of a hassle for them to use the Andantes and get on with it.
    Last edited by jboy88; 07-15-2019 at 11:07 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by jboy88 View Post
    Amen to that, Stu! No offense to the Vandellas or Marvelletes, but sometimes their voices were a bit too shaky and unpolished for some of the songs! I saw an old video of Martha and the Vandellas singing “My Baby Loves Me” live on YouTube and thought to myself “No wonder they used the Andantes and Four Tops on that one”.

    As far as the Supremes are concerned, I always figured the Andantes were involved on their recordings strictly because Mary, Flo, or both were giving HDH fists during sessions and didn’t feel like dealing with them. I guess it was less of a hassle for them to use the Andantes and get on with it.
    I didn’t know that Flo and Mary were problems for HDH in the recording studio? Where did u read that?

  14. #114
    They wanted a look on stage - and they got that with Mary and Cindy

    They wanted a sound on the 45s especially - and they got it with the Andantes

    I’m sure they all acted up once in a while - they were basically just a bunch of young people

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    They wanted a look on stage - and they got that with Mary and Cindy

    They wanted a sound on the 45s especially - and they got it with the Andantes

    I’m sure they all acted up once in a while - they were basically just a bunch of young people
    Exactly... and being dressed in fancy gowns, immaculate hairstyling graced with extensively rehearsed choreography behind a lead singer with a very recognizable voice distracts from background vocals to a large degree (and on some television appearances, they were undoubtedly accompanied with background vocal tracks)... When listening to a recording on a transistor radio or stereo record player, ONLY the voices are what will be judged, and as you alluded to...The Andantes were the cream of the crop when it came to vocal quality and harmonization... Mary and Flo, (and later Cindy) were competent background singers...not a highly accomplished vocal unit as were the Andantes, The Sweethearts of Sigma, or The Vincent Sisters and others who complimented recordings in the 60's and 70's... Mary was seen as the great looking Supreme, Flo (who had a very good solo voice) and fit well with the early ensemble, and of course...Diana, Berry Gordy's hand picked superstar whose voice became synonymous with the Motown Sound...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-16-2019 at 03:44 PM.

  16. #116
    just want to make sure I'm following this correctly ;

    whose voices are being heard here : .....


  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    just want to make sure I'm following this correctly ;

    whose voices are being heard here : .....

    John, it's Diana Ross and The Andantes. From "Love Child" (1968) onward, all succeeding Supremes' studio recordings were Diana Ross and The Andantes except for "Someday We'll Be Together" which was Diana Ross and The Waters Sisters. The only exception was the 4 albums by The Supremes & Temptations (2 studio albums and 2 live albums), all of which contained Mary & Cindy, as well as any Diana Ross & The Supremes live albums which were also Mary Cindy.

  18. #118
    [QUOTE=StuBass1;525371]Totally believable. Ringo was really good for what he did...but had his limitations as well... Nothing about substituting musicians for recording sessions that is unusual..
    On YouTube Ringo explains that he is left-handed so he plays the drums differently and than a right handed drummer. It is very entertaining- great guy. What are his limitations?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I have never bought a record in my life because the Andantes were singing on it. We didn't even know who they were when I was growing up. I look at them as accompaniment but not on the same level as the legendary Funk Brothers.
    While I understand some folks feel these ladies had an immense impact in the Motown product, I suggest that the Funk Bros played an even larger role in producing a quality product.

  20. #120
    I agree with the flawless assessment provided by Stu..

  21. #121
    I was there!

    The reason the Andantes (and male background singers
    in some cases) were used was not dramatic at all. Lamont Dozier liked to arrange and record the backgrounds last in order to fill out gaps in energy left by the musicians and lead singer. Canceling gigs that had been booked months earlier just to put a little icing on a record was an extremely expensive proposition for the company and, most of all, for the artists themselves. The Andantes were on a lot more records than the ones mentioned for that simple workflow and economic reason.

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    While I understand some folks feel these ladies had an immense impact in the Motown product, I suggest that the Funk Bros played an even larger role in producing a quality product.
    That may well be...however since this tread is about The Andantes, The Funk Brothers and their massive contributions are pretty much a moot point. As for who had a "larger role"... your point may be well taken since the music tracks were arguably a significantly greater key element than the background vocals to the end product. The Funk Brothers have had books written about them (as have The Andantes) and there has been a popular documentary film about The Funk Brothers, as well as having received a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award, and there is a Star on the Hollywood Walk Of Fame bearing their name, along with many other honors and recognitions... As for legacy, The Funk Brothers have achieved much, albeit much to late for most of them to be able to appreciate it as they should have... Both The Funk Brothers AND The Andantes have a very important and significant story to tell...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-19-2019 at 07:26 PM.

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_olhsson View Post
    I was there!

    The reason the Andantes (and male background singers
    in some cases) were used was not dramatic at all. Lamont Dozier liked to arrange and record the backgrounds last in order to fill out gaps in energy left by the musicians and lead singer. Canceling gigs that had been booked months earlier just to put a little icing on a record was an extremely expensive proposition for the company and, most of all, for the artists themselves. The Andantes were on a lot more records than the ones mentioned for that simple workflow and economic reason.
    Bob, thank you! That was exactly my understanding. There was nothing nefarious or dramatic involved. The Andantes were stationary, local and on call 24/7. Thanks!
    Last edited by marv2; 07-19-2019 at 07:51 PM.

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    While I understand some folks feel these ladies had an immense impact in the Motown product, I suggest that the Funk Bros played an even larger role in producing a quality product.
    To myself and many, the Funk Brothers WERE the Motown Sound! Singers were important, session singers were sometimes necessary ,but I do not believe Motown could have done without all of those great musicians that gave it's records their unique sound.

  25. #125
    Lamont says in this interesting article that The Andantes were the "fixers"...and were often called on to fix the tracks that were lacking something... The producers interviewed here, Mickey, Ivy, Lamont, all basically describe the trio as "indispensable"...https://www.aarp.org/entertainment/m...-andantes.html
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-19-2019 at 07:55 PM.

  26. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Lamont says in this interesting article that The Andantes were the "fixers"...and were often called on to fix the tracks that were lacking something... The producers interviewed here, Mickey, Ivy, Lamont, all basically describe the trio as "indispensable"...https://www.aarp.org/entertainment/m...-andantes.html
    If they believed that, then maybe they should have been paying them more than $5 per session and the ladies would not have had to moonlight at other labels. I'm just saying.

  27. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    If they believed that, then maybe they should have been paying them more than $5 per session and the ladies would not have had to moonlight at other labels. I'm just saying.
    LOL...Actually, according to the ladies...they were paid $10 per hour as they were virtually always on call. They let them sleep in Berry's old apartment upstairs so they were always close when needed...In the 60's, $10 an hour weren't bad wages. I was paid $3.67 an hour at the Ford Wixom Assembly plant in 1970 during my college days...and that was with a 50 cent bump because I operated a crane... The Funk Brothers were initially paid $5 a session in the early days...and as a bonus...a bowl of soup...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-19-2019 at 08:24 PM.

  28. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    LOL...Actually, according to the ladies...they were paid $10 per hour as they were virtually always on call. They let them sleep in Berry's old apartment upstairs so they were always close when needed...In the 60's, $10 an hour weren't bad wages. I was paid $3.67 an hour at the Ford Wixom Assembly plant in 1970 during my college days...and that was with a 50 cent bump because I operated a crane... The Funk Brothers were initially paid $5 a session in the early days...and as a bonus...a bowl of soup...
    I did not make that up about the $ 5 per session. Evidently they finally raised it to $10. No that was not bad in the 60s. When I started working in the 70s (excluding my paper route), min. wage was $2.10/hr.

    I just think that if they valued the Andantes so, so very much as they claim now, then they would have paid them better and they would not have left them high and dry when the company moved to LA in 1972. They went out there and just picked up new session singers.
    Last edited by marv2; 07-19-2019 at 10:44 PM.

  29. #129
    These are the Number one hits for Motown that the Andantes sang on:

    "My Guy" – Mary Wells
    "I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)" – Four Tops
    "Reach Out I'll Be There" – Four Tops
    "Love Child" – Diana Ross & the Supremes
    "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" – Marvin Gaye

    Not a bad track record (no pun intended). They should have been paid more, minus the soup!
    Last edited by marv2; 07-19-2019 at 09:08 PM.

  30. #130
    Agree in hindsight that many Motown Detroit employees were sort of left behind, including even some of their artists...and most famously...The Funk Brothers... That said...Motown moving to Los Angeles was obviously trying to create a new updated sound and to gain acceptance in the L.A. music community, use the available people already here, which explains the Funk Brothers not being brought as a unit, as well as other employees...even engineers and others. Russ Terrana was one of the few who was asked to come out to California. Keep in mind that in comparison to Detroit...Los Angeles was awash in Musicians, background singers, engineers, and studios...

  31. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Lamont says in this interesting article that The Andantes were the "fixers"...and were often called on to fix the tracks that were lacking something... The producers interviewed here, Mickey, Ivy, Lamont, all basically describe the trio as "indispensable"...https://www.aarp.org/entertainment/m...-andantes.html
    Did Lamont explain why they did not hire them over at Invictus once Motown left town?

  32. #132
    I would assume that since they weren't producing the volume of recordings anywhere near the levels of Motown, HDH had no need to recruit the Andantes, even if one assumes that the Andantes would have been interested in continuing their careers at that point...HDH already had the Vincent Sisters... terrific singers in their own right he brought to Invictus immediately after leaving Motown while the Andantes were still loyal to Gordy and Motown until the label left Detroit before the end of 1972... By the time Invictus/Hot Wax began having serious financial problems by 1973, Motown had just closed down their Detroit operation as Lamont left the Holland Brothers who continued to run Invictus (minus Hot Wax) on a shoestring for a few more years, The Vincents and Telma got plucked away for the Dawn thing that already had an album under their belt before The Vincents and Telma were recruited to officialy become Tony Orlando and Dawn...In addition, Invictus wasn't nearly as well organized and artistically diverse as Motown and reportedly were getting shorted money from their distributors...and I'm assuming towards the end of the Invictus era, they were utilizing whatever singers were around the company...just as they interchanged musicians like Tony Newton, Bruce Nazarian, Melvin Davis, Lyman Woodard and 8th Day who were marketed as both a group and were used as session musicians for the other acts... They even used some of the same artists as part of more than one group...I remember running into Tony one day and he invited me over to a house he had just moved into over near Livernois and Pembroke and all these musicians were hanging around there... Those were the nucleus of 8th day, and also played on the tracks for 100 Proof Aged In Soul...HDH ran their entire label on interchangeable parts due to economic issues... While they collected significant revenues from Motown Gordy had sued them, and ultimately in the end, Invictus was something where they bit off a bit more than they could chew...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-19-2019 at 10:20 PM.

  33. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    LOL...Actually, according to the ladies...they were paid $10 per hour as they were virtually always on call. They let them sleep in Berry's old apartment upstairs so they were always close when needed...In the 60's, $10 an hour weren't bad wages. I was paid $3.67 an hour at the Ford Wixom Assembly plant in 1970 during my college days...and that was with a 50 cent bump because I operated a crane... The Funk Brothers were initially paid $5 a session in the early days...and as a bonus...a bowl of soup...
    Pick me up off the floor. SMH. the Funk Bros. should have been set for life IMO. And to a lessor extent, the Andantes sleeping on site for immediate access should have been compensated accordingly. Seems to be a lot of questionable compensation @ Motown. But maybe were just thankful to be part of the Motown machine. For instance, the way they billed the Sups for their costs etc. was crazy. And when Diana left they told her to turn the car back in? Good grief. Can't believe Berry didn't offer the Andantes some sort of contract to record during their own music during "idle" if there was any.

  34. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Pick me up off the floor. SMH. the Funk Bros. should have been set for life IMO. And to a lessor extent, the Andantes sleeping on site for immediate access should have been compensated accordingly. Seems to be a lot of questionable compensation @ Motown. But maybe were just thankful to be part of the Motown machine. For instance, the way they billed the Sups for their costs etc. was crazy. And when Diana left they told her to turn the car back in? Good grief. Can't believe Berry didn't offer the Andantes some sort of contract to record during their own music during "idle" if there was any.
    Well even many, if not most of the artists from Motown's Detroit era weren't "set for life"...mostly far from it... The Funks were session musicians, several of whom ultimately made good money at Motown, but at the time were still seen as contract musicians who were paid union scale and the going rate for session players. Obviously, it wasn't until years later that their contributions, much like the Wrecking Crew on the West Coast, and invaluable contributions were widely recognized... Such is the life of a musician... Had they played hardball and demanded more money at the time, Berry would have most likely just found different musicians to take their place from a talented pool of musicians in and around Detroit, once again, not realizing what a unique contribution they made to the total product... Most of them were just happy to be working regularly and living pretty well compared to the 9-5 jobs and factory work most of their contemporaries were doing, and also able to play their jazz at night, unusual for musicians back in the day, and even today... Same with singers like The Andantes... Nobody recognized just what a valuable contribution they made, likely assuming at the time that if these ladies weren't there to sing, Detroit was FULL of vocally talented singers... The real shame is AFTER the Funks were recognized for their unique contributions, years later...at least those surviving, that they were unable to fully take advantage of playing off their legacy based on unfortunate mismanagement, but in the final analysis, the Funks AND The Andantes had the rare opportunity in life to do what they loved doing...and not a lot of people can really say that when it's time to look back... We are all products of the time in which we lived...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-20-2019 at 12:26 AM.

  35. #135
    Very good posts Stu - they explain in a rational way what happened and there’s no emotion about the way things turned out

  36. #136
    This is an excellent post about the inner workings of the[motown]machine!

  37. Quote Originally Posted by bob_olhsson View Post
    I was there!

    The reason the Andantes (and male background singers
    in some cases) were used was not dramatic at all. Lamont Dozier liked to arrange and record the backgrounds last in order to fill out gaps in energy left by the musicians and lead singer. Canceling gigs that had been booked months earlier just to put a little icing on a record was an extremely expensive proposition for the company and, most of all, for the artists themselves. The Andantes were on a lot more records than the ones mentioned for that simple workflow and economic reason.
    Well Mr. Olhsson, to have your say, from an eyewitness, says it all for me!

    Yet I have this odd aching in my bones that yours will not be the final word on this (even though it VERY well should be.)

  38. #138
    In 1968 Eddie Holland approached me regarding buying Tera Shirma. We quoted him a price of one million dollars which was not accepted. I wonder if HDH would have been better off with that deal, considering they would be buying a brand new state of the art facility instead of going through the expense and hassle of building their own.
    Last edited by ralpht; 07-21-2019 at 07:50 AM.

  39. #139
    Join Date
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    I do not agree that everyone who does great work should be “set for life.” Almost everyone must think about tomorrow’s needs and expenses.

  40. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    I do not agree that everyone who does great work should be “set for life.” Almost everyone must think about tomorrow’s needs and expenses.
    The public doesn’t know a lot about the Andantes or the Funk Brothers or any other background singer or session player

    But it’s very clear that the fact that a very few at Motown made so much while so many barely made a living and had no pension or savings is something that burns the backsides of a few posters on here

    Life isn’t always kind and fair and the likes of Stevie and Diana can’t help the finances of everyone that doesn’t have a lot of money

  41. #141
    what goes around comes around I guess . Apparently that is none of the Andantes singing lead on their own record :




    LOL!!

  42. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    what goes around comes around I guess . Apparently that is none of the Andantes singing lead on their own record :




    LOL!!

    That is more than a little ironic. hehehehehehehehehehehehehe.........!

  43. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    what goes around comes around I guess . Apparently that is none of the Andantes singing lead on their own record :




    LOL!!
    John, you're right -- The lead singer on The Andantes "(Like A) Nightmare" is Anne Bogan, who became a latter-day Marvelette, replacing founding-member Gladys Horton in 1967 (following the release of The Marvelettes' self-titled "Pink" album). It's odd that Motown would finally let The Andantes record a single with their own name on it, and then un-do it all by using another artist's lead vocal on it. In fact, to my ears, it doesn't even sound like The Andantes on back-up vocals, either. I'm guessing it was Motown's way of ensuring that the record would flop and they would never have to worry about losing their go-to back-up singers.

  44. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    John, you're right -- The lead singer on The Andantes "(Like A) Nightmare" is Anne Bogan, who became a latter-day Marvelette, replacing founding-member Gladys Horton in 1967 (following the release of The Marvelettes' self-titled "Pink" album). It's odd that Motown would finally let The Andantes record a single with their own name on it, and then un-do it all by using another artist's lead vocal on it. In fact, to my ears, it doesn't even sound like The Andantes on back-up vocals, either. I'm guessing it was Motown's way of ensuring that the record would flop and they would never have to worry about losing their go-to back-up singers.
    as Marv said, hehehehehehe

  45. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    as Marv said, hehehehehehe
    Whatever....

  46. #146
    you don't find the whole thing (of The Andantes not singing lead on their own song) amusing Gary?
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 07-22-2019 at 04:08 PM.

  47. #147
    Berry Gordy wisely codified his support crew from time to time...musicians, singers, execs, etc with projects that were never intended to launch careers, but to essentially show them some love. This looks like one of those instances, using his 2nd tier "minor league" label VIP so the singers could see their name on some vinyl... He did the same thing with several Funk Brothers, including an experimental jazz label project and the Fever In The Funkhouse recording, none of which were significantly supported or promoted... He also took out some old band tracks and let Earl Van Dyke record organ solo's over them and released them as albums. Nothing like Stax did in allowing Booker T & The MG's to record on their own while also cutting tracks for other artists, or PIR did with actual credible releases of their backing band...MFSB...who ultimately left Gamble & Huff when they felt their popularity was underappreciated... Berry Gordy was smarter and held on to his background singers and session musicians by not letting them get too popular, but a few token projects let those performers know that Berry was at least thinking of them realizing that their greatest contribution to the company was in a background capacity...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-22-2019 at 11:11 PM.

  48. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    you don't find the whole thing (of The Andantes not singing lead on their own song) amusing Gary?
    Yeah, I got it, John. I was just surprised at the circumstances under which it was said.

  49. #149
    I haven't read every post in this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating a point someone else already made.

    My buddy Gary mentioned the West Coast musicians who made up what became know as The Wrecking Crew. They played on thousands of records which were marketed as being played by the Beach Boys, Gary Lewis & the Playboys, and many other acts which were supposedly "self-contained" musicians and singers. There's a great PBS special on The Wrecking Crew and a CD box set of many of their most famous recordings on which they played.

    Ike Turner didn't even play guitar on all of Ike and Tina's recordings. Their blues album, "The Hunter" had great guitar work on it but was played by Albert Collins, not Ike.

    So this kind of practice is very, very common in the music industry.

    That being said, I still prefer hearing the original singers, even if they sound rough and unvarnished like the Marvelettes do on their early numbers or even some later tracks such as "The Stranger." On "Uptown," for example, the Andantes may be on it, but I'm sure the main backing vocals are Katherine and Anne. They just sound less smooth than the Andantes and more identifiable with how the Marvelettes sound on most of their earlier records. I'm sure the Andantes were better singers than most of the Motown artists, but to me their sound may have been smoother, but was somehow more "antiseptic."

    As a young listener, I wondered why their backgrounds seemed to be muted and more "background" than on the earlier records, though at the time it would have never occurred to me that it was anyone other than the group singing. Naive, weren't we?

  50. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    I haven't read every post in this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating a point someone else already made.

    My buddy Gary mentioned the West Coast musicians who made up what became know as The Wrecking Crew. They played on thousands of records which were marketed as being played by the Beach Boys, Gary Lewis & the Playboys, and many other acts which were supposedly "self-contained" musicians and singers. There's a great PBS special on The Wrecking Crew and a CD box set of many of their most famous recordings on which they played.

    Ike Turner didn't even play guitar on all of Ike and Tina's recordings. Their blues album, "The Hunter" had great guitar work on it but was played by Albert Collins, not Ike.

    So this kind of practice is very, very common in the music industry.

    That being said, I still prefer hearing the original singers, even if they sound rough and unvarnished like the Marvelettes do on their early numbers or even some later tracks such as "The Stranger." On "Uptown," for example, the Andantes may be on it, but I'm sure the main backing vocals are Katherine and Anne. They just sound less smooth than the Andantes and more identifiable with how the Marvelettes sound on most of their earlier records. I'm sure the Andantes were better singers than most of the Motown artists, but to me their sound may have been smoother, but was somehow more "antiseptic."

    As a young listener, I wondered why their backgrounds seemed to be muted and more "background" than on the earlier records, though at the time it would have never occurred to me that it was anyone other than the group singing. Naive, weren't we?
    Gee, Kenny, I wonder how I knew you were gonna say that! Ha! 😉

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