Till The Boat Sails Away - [[Original Terrana Mix)

[blackguy69]

To add Where do I go from here was the follow up to HMM in the states and it did worse than HMM.

[sup_fan]

Again, let's be clear, Mary and Pedro had no power at Motown. None. Zilch. Zero. They held some degree of power over the Supremes, particularly the day to day operations. But neither of them was in position to go to Motown and say release this or that or don't release this or that. When have you ever heard of a Motown act other than probably the big four [[Diana, Marvin, Stevie and Smokey) having any real say so over such things? So if Motown ever contemplated releasing "Said Before" [[which would've been a horrible decision, even though it's a nice song) as the first single, it was Motown who changed their minds and went for "He's My Man". Someone with the power to do so apparently liked Mary's voice enough to make that decision. So Motown didn't want to promote Mary leads, but they didn't mind releasing them? They didn't mind putting money into pressing and shipping the singles but they wouldn't dare put an ounce into promotion because it's Mary? Why did Motown apparently ignore every single after "Heart Do the Walking"? Mary's voice certainly wasn't the reason for that, and it would appear Motown wasn't enamored with the voices of Scherrie or Susaye either, considering how well their lead singing singles performed.

Pedro was the group's manager and so, yes. he and mary absolutely had decision making power regarding what the group would do and release. not 100% but they definitely controlled the group's direction. What they clearly didn't have was any influence within motown to get things promoted or done.

From what i've gather from various fans/historians on here, the various books, etc is that Berry assumed in 73 that when J and L left and with Mary marrying, the Sups were gone. Motown had no interest in continuing the group. However mary would not let the group die and brought Scherrie and Cindy in. much to motown's anger. They did absolutely nothing for the group for the almost the entire year of 74 but the girls continued to tour and got pretty strong reviews. That was enough to at least drag motown along with the idea of allowing the group to test some recordings. Plus i believe mary either besieged Gordy to allow the group to reform or he felt a bit of sympathy for her or something. So the group resigned and they recorded with a bunch of producers

motown was never interested in mary leads. ever. she was never considered to replace diana. and she was the one pushing for leads and more during the jean era. and motown didn't want mary as lead in Scherrie era either. Motown wanted IABSB but pedro and mary demanded HMM. motown finally relented but wasn't thrilled. they already weren't super thrilled that the Sups were even still around and were definitely NOT happy with the pedro situation. But they went along with it. And the song did well in the discos and with gay fans, showing motown that there was a bit of interest still in the group.

Then things deteriorate within the group due to M and P. Motown can see that they're self destructing but also sees some potential for the act as a hot disco group. So they want to take over management to maybe help get things back in gear so that a little money can be made. After Walking, motown was supposedly interested in HE as a single but P and M vetoed that since Susaye had just joined. so another nail in the coffin

MS&S was a strong set but the group was collapsing. inter-group turmoil was at an all-time high, the live shows were a nightmare. Apparently a LOT of top motown execs were at the Caesar show during which the group was truly a disappointment. There had been the fiasco with the S Africa tour, then the madison square green mess.

Mary decides in Deb 76 that she's going solo but motown has no interest in a solo mary. and the sups are now destroyed basically.

[marv2]

To add Where do I go from here was the follow up to HMM in the states and it did worse than HMM.

Oh that didn't even get played. The only time I heard it on the radio was the night after Florence Ballard died and they did a tribute to her.

[RanRan79]

To add Where do I go from here was the follow up to HMM in the states and it did worse than HMM.

Good point. That's why the Mary voice theory doesn't hold up. The public wasn't interested in the Supremes. That was not Mary's fault.

[RanRan79]

I just wrote a long ass response to you Sup Fan and then accidentally deleted it!!

So in true RanRan79 fashion, I'm going to say screw this subject and move on because I am officially pissed. All that damn writing and it's deleted?? Some of my best stuff, now on the cutting room floor, unsalvageable. I'm annoyed as hell.

Maybe not completely move on. I'll simply say this: I don't buy this Mary's voice thing and I'll need more than forum speculation to convince me. The one part of my deleted post that I will recreate- at least in part- is my thoughts that the public didn't like any of the music the Supremes were doing at this point. The group should have ditched the disco/dance numbers and stayed with the r&b/pop style that the name had been built on. Makes me wonder what might have happened if Maurice White had gotten hold to the Supremes in the same way he did with the Emotions.

I'll also point out that during the Scherrie era, the public really seemed to be over female groups in general. I think the "big" female groups of the time like Labelle, Pointers, Three Degrees, Love Unlimited, were popular concert draws, but music wise, none of them were tearing up the charts. Labelle obviously hit number one with "Lady M" but nothing else hit pop, and only "What Can I Do for You" went top 10 r&b; Pointers hit #1 r&b and 20 pop with "Betcha" and top 20 r&b two more times but nothing else pop until the Supremes were a memory; the Three Degrees during this same time weren't doing any better than the Supremes were, same for Love Unlimited, and all these groups had singers who led successful singles, so their voices can't be the reason the public was turned off, same as Mary and the Supremes.

And if I look at hit singles during this period of time and compare some of the lead vocalists to Mary, I find it even harder to believe that the public's ears bled when they heard Mary Wilson start to sing.

[sup_fan]

lolol - now Ran. I actually enjoy the productive banter, dialog and respective argument. I'm fascinated by all of the differences among us fans and fine with that. And of course everyone is welcome to their opinion. please don't ever read my posts or responses as any type of attack

I do completely agree that the girls could have done a lot of different genres. Personally i do like their disco work and appreciate it. I've also grown to love their more avant guard material, especially on MS&S.

I don't want to speak for other fans but IMO mary has a lovely voice. but it fits best in certain material. had there been a market for strong blues and jazz, i could see her excelling wonderfully there and perhaps the Supremes platform could have been used to establish her as a serious artist and launch as a solo. But with hard driving, exciting dance music, i don't feel it when she's on lead.

i do love her vocals on Auto Sun -the smokiness, the sultriness. gorgeous. And had the writers and producers found ways to incorporate that in a dance song like HMM - that could have been great.

[Bluebrock]

I can't take issue with your dislike of Mary's voice. Everyone is entitled to their opinions regarding each voice of the Supremes, and obviously so many of us have our likes and dislikes. However, saying stuff like "her voice bored the general public" just doesn't make sense because you really have no way of showing evidence of that. To suggest that this is true based on the public's reaction to "Early Morning Love", you would then have to explain the public's reaction to the singles released after it. And judging from the limited information I have been able to track down on the net, it don't look like anything the Supremes did during the Scherrie years excited the UK and only "Heart Walking" did anything for the group in the States. The last two top ten hits the Supremes had in the UK were two Mary duets. So why would they dig her voice in 72 but not in 75? It seems to me like there's blame for the downfall of the Supremes being placed on Mary's shoulders for all the wrong reasons. Yes, she definitely had a hand in that, but there's no evidence to suggest that this had anything to do with Mary's voice, anymore than it had to do with Scherrie or Susaye, because nobody in the States or in the UK rushed out to buy "High Energy" or "Let Yourself Go", or anything Scherrie and Susaye released as soloist when the group was done.

I hear what you say, but "He's my man" received a hell of a lot of airplay in the UK. It was even the record of the week on Tony Blackburn's National Radio 1 show. The girls appeared on National tv shows to perform the song and did lots of press and radio interviews,but still the si gle stiffed. During the same visit Mary threw a hissy fit during an interview at the BBC and stormed out. Perhaps that had some bearing on the songs failure to get beyond the lower end of the top 100. Early morning Love was wrongly chosen as the follow up and flopped dismally. I am not laying all the blame squarely at Mary Wilson's door, but i am still convinced that Scherrie leading on these songs would have sounded better and increased the songs appeal and sales potential. That is just my opinion. I recall an elderly friend of mine criticising the quality of Mary's vocals during the appearance on Top of the Pops and saying something like how the mighty have fallen, and asked why the Supremes no longer had a good lead singer.We shall never know of course, but that is my opinion which i stand by.

[RanRan79]

lolol - now Ran. I actually enjoy the productive banter, dialog and respective argument. I'm fascinated by all of the differences among us fans and fine with that. And of course everyone is welcome to their opinion. please don't ever read my posts or responses as any type of attack

I do completely agree that the girls could have done a lot of different genres. Personally i do like their disco work and appreciate it. I've also grown to love their more avant guard material, especially on MS&S.

I don't want to speak for other fans but IMO mary has a lovely voice. but it fits best in certain material. had there been a market for strong blues and jazz, i could see her excelling wonderfully there and perhaps the Supremes platform could have been used to establish her as a serious artist and launch as a solo. But with hard driving, exciting dance music, i don't feel it when she's on lead.

i do love her vocals on Auto Sun -the smokiness, the sultriness. gorgeous. And had the writers and producers found ways to incorporate that in a dance song like HMM - that could have been great.

Oh no, I didn't take anything you said as an attack. We do what we always do, you and I: disagree about 85 percent of everything but remain respectful while doing it.

I too like their disco work, and of course I wasn't born yet so my thoughts on all of it is with hindsight. And it's that hindsight that leads me to believe that as good as the stuff was, the public just didn't want to hear it from a group called The Supremes. Even now when the internet is allowing for more and more music fans to discover a lot more music than was once possible, I don't see any new fans of this period of the Supremes. And I suspect that the music is really the reason.

I do agree that Mary fits best with certain types of material. She needed a writer and producer who understood her voice best and could come up with something for her. I think Gus Dungeon had that ability. It's still one of the biggest shames in Supremes Solo History that those four songs didn't get a chance to become a full album.

[RanRan79]

I hear what you say, but "He's my man" received a hell of a lot of airplay in the UK. It was even the record of the week on Tony Blackburn's National Radio 1 show. The girls appeared on National tv shows to perform the song and did lots of press and radio interviews,but still the si gle stiffed. During the same visit Mary threw a hissy fit during an interview at the BBC and stormed out. Perhaps that had some bearing on the songs failure to get beyond the lower end of the top 100. Early morning Love was wrongly chosen as the follow up and flopped dismally. I am not laying all the blame squarely at Mary Wilson's door, but i am still convinced that Scherrie leading on these songs would have sounded better and increased the songs appeal and sales potential. That is just my opinion. I recall an elderly friend of mine criticising the quality of Mary's vocals during the appearance on Top of the Pops and saying something like how the mighty have fallen, and asked why the Supremes no longer had a good lead singer.We shall never know of course, but that is my opinion which i stand by.

No argument about Scherrie maybe being a better fit for those songs, but when you consider the fact that Scherrie's subsequent leads didn't do any better in the UK or US, it just points to the problem not being Mary or Scherrie, but the Supremes and the music they were making. No reason to believe "Early" or "HMM" would've taken off with Scherrie or Martha Reeves on lead.

You mention your elderly friend...that leads me to the issue of what were the fans saying at the time? I wasn't born so I don't know. I only know what everybody is saying about one Supreme issue or another in today's time. But for the folks who were around, were the fans vocalizing that they were turned off by Mary's voice? I could understand the point better if this was something that the fans were actually saying at the time.

[sup_fan]

i think the issue of the single's failing during the Scherrie era had more to do with mismanagement [[both all sides involved) than the strength of the music itself. With next to no promotion or support, Walking hit #40. While that's a far cry from their heyday, i see it as being indicative that the song connected with the general audience. And had it received the mega promotion that Sup and Diana material received in the past, it would have charted higher. That would have helped to re-establish the group with a new identity and sound which would have enabled an [[appropriate) follow up single to potentially do well also. Assuming that single 1) was the right selection and 2) received promotion. Wheel was not the right selection and that, combined with the lack of push, doomed it.

[Bluebrock]

No argument about Scherrie maybe being a better fit for those songs, but when you consider the fact that Scherrie's subsequent leads didn't do any better in the UK or US, it just points to the problem not being Mary or Scherrie, but the Supremes and the music they were making. No reason to believe "Early" or "HMM" would've taken off with Scherrie or Martha Reeves on lead.

You mention your elderly friend...that leads me to the issue of what were the fans saying at the time? I wasn't born so I don't know. I only know what everybody is saying about one Supreme issue or another in today's time. But for the folks who were around, were the fans vocalizing that they were turned off by Mary's voice? I could understand the point better if this was something that the fans were actually saying at the time.

The elderly friend i referred to was a pop music fanatic who had avidly followed popular music since the 1950's. He had bought several Supremes records in the 60's and early 70's, but i would not have classed him as a Supremes fantatic. The only Supreme he would have been able to name would have been Diana Ross. When he watched The Supremes perform "he's my man" he would have had no idea who Mary Wilson was. I recall him talking about the performance and saying their new lead singer could not sing very well. That is the point i was trying to make. He purchased pop music, but he did not rate Mary Wilson as a singer. I had to explain to him that she was an original member of the group, and he said something like "they are nowhere near as good as they used to be". Just his opinion of course. That is the point i was trying to make. Mary Wilson's voice did not resonate with the average buyer of singles.

[daviddh]

i dont dislike Marys voice. i like her leads on Touch, I Keep It Hid ,A Heart Like Mine and Can We Love Again. but I think Hes My Man would have been better with Scherrie on full lead. there are times when Mary nails it and then she doesn't.
Where Is It I Belong, sorry I don't like it. but Bend A Little and Sha L Bandit stayed in the vaults to give Mary more leads,
to me its like keeping Chris Davis in the Orioles after he keeps striking out, yes he is an Oriole but he is hurting the team. he needs to be benched.
Scherrie should have been lead singer.

[sup_fan]

^i think that was Mary's biggest fault. attempting to utilize the Supremes as a platform to launch a solo career. Had she and pedro not had that in mind, the approach and direction of the group from 74 forward would have been very different.

[blackguy69]

i dont dislike Marys voice. i like her leads on Touch, I Keep It Hid ,A Heart Like Mine and Can We Love Again. but I think Hes My Man would have been better with Scherrie on full lead. there are times when Mary nails it and then she doesn't.
Where Is It I Belong, sorry I don't like it. but Bend A Little and Sha L Bandit stayed in the vaults to give Mary more leads,
to me its like keeping Chris Davis in the Orioles after he keeps striking out, yes he is an Oriole but he is hurting the team. he needs to be benched.
Scherrie should have been lead singer.

Do you really think Motown would have pushed them if Mary just stayed in the background and let Scherrie be lead. Highly doubtful.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I've told this story before. But haven't we all told our stories here before ! In the post-Jean years, at informal hang-out evenings with friends, whenever the 'Supremes' turned up on tv inevitably someone in the group would say 'Who are they?' Presented with the reply 'The Supremes', the response would be 'No they aren't'. Another cut-to-the chase statement would be 'Who are they? They're awful'. The superfans don't want to hear this, yet it's true. And I imagine the scenario was playing out widely across the country.

[marv2]

Do you really think Motown would have pushed them if Mary just stayed in the background and let Scherrie be lead. Highly doubtful.

There's no way in the World that would have happened. In fact, Motown agreed with Mary with some members coming and going from the group, they needed some stability in sound and that had to come from Mary herself. That is why Smokey Robinson produced the lp "Floy Joy" the way he did and why Mary had at least one featured solo on each album.

[gman]

my 2 cents worth.....IABSB sounds too much like a Broadway show tune. Too mature lyrically and style wise for a group attempting to re-endear itself to a young hit single buying public...IABSB is pure AOR fluff, yes, and quite a good one too. To me, it is a pleasant LP cut. Considering the early disco climate, HMM was a smarter choice. Maybe having a 3 part lead with Scherrie handling the big grab would have been a smarter move...Mary was a very recognizable Supreme, and even a so-so fan would have noticed Cindy's return, or that she was still there.....Scherrie was a powder keg waiting for the right spark. Her great and very contemporary look was also a plus. She could definitely hold attention visually and vocally...It was too long between recorded product. That hurt the group. As far as a Mary lead, I would assume the general public was more familiar with Mary's voice and image....Glass House's wonderful Scherrie hit did not exactly storm white radio, and GH didn't do a lot of TV, so it was starting from scratch. MSC had a beautiful blend. The brassy arrangements /older material speedy medleys became a big problem with live work. And with [[Udo for one) few exceptions, the live work became a messy free for all once Cindy left.

[TomatoTom123]

I was disappointed to learn that there isn't a Scherrie lead version of "Early Morning Love" as has been rumored. Just like I'm dying to hear Scherrie's version of "Want Ads", I've been dying to hear what she did with "Early" because I just knew she tore it up. That being said, while I've already stated my belief that Mary's strength was in ballads, I adore her lead on "Early". I think it showed real growth in what she could handle vocally, that she didn't always need the ballads. Likewise, it would have been nice for Scherrie to showcase [[on record) that she didn't always need the uptempo stuff.

HOLD IT RAN: THERE'S A SCHERRIE VERSION OF "WANT ADS"?! I must have!

[TomatoTom123]

Damnit! I just wrote a 46-page essay in response to every single post in the thread, but I've only gone and deleted it!!! Well, in true TomatoTom fashion, I'll just move on and you guys will have to take my word for it.