Till The Boat Sails Away - [[Original Terrana Mix)

**marv2** · 03-17-2019, 07:36 PM

This sounds so, so good.......

**Bluebrock** · 03-18-2019, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

This sounds so, so good.......

With the exception of the truly dire "where is it i belong" this is the dullest of the Mary Wilson led ballads. A dull uninspiring song with a dull uninspiring lead vocal. This perfectly illustrates just why Mary Wilson's solo recording career was such a resounding failure. She should have stuck to background vocals where she excelled.

**jim aka jtigre99** · 03-18-2019, 05:55 AM

I think Mary Wilson really excels at ballads. I thoroughly enjoy her warm voice in this genre. Thoroughly wonderful mix of a very beautiful song.

**sup_fan** · 03-18-2019, 11:19 AM

Where is it i belong is one of the worst tracks ever recorded by the supremes. And Mary does an acceptable job on it, but that's it.

I do like Till The Boat although i most certainly don't think it's Grammy material lol. I think Mary has a more passionate lead here. Frankly i think it's a more interesting lead than her on I Keep It Hid [[except for her glorious falsetto notes at the end) or A Heart Like Mine. both of which just sort of plod along

**Bluebrock** · 03-18-2019, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

Where is it i belong is one of the worst tracks ever recorded by the supremes. And Mary does an acceptable job on it, but that's it.

I do like Till The Boat although i most certainly don't think it's Grammy material lol. I think Mary has a more passionate lead here. Frankly i think it's a more interesting lead than her on I Keep It Hid [[except for her glorious falsetto notes at the end) or A Heart Like Mine. both of which just sort of plod along

Where is it i belong is indeed ghastly. It just drones on and on without going anywhere. As regards Boat i thought it was by far the weakest ballad on High Energy. It was definitely a case of one ballad too many on side 2. It is hardly a bad song. Merely a rather dull one. It should have been left off what was an otherwise strong album.

**sup_fan** · 03-18-2019, 03:41 PM

I think the idea of Side A being dance and Side B being ballads didn't work as well for the HE set and mixing things up like on MS&S. with HE, the Hollands have said they were very influenced with the sounds and lushness of a symphony orchestra and used that as inspiration. Overall i like the entire album of MS&S better but if i were producing HE, i would have:

1. incorporate another song with the sound and feel of the title track. it certainly has the lushness and sounds of a symphony but it certainly stand alone from the rest of the lp
2. cut a ballad and replace with a dance track. I know Bend A Little was considered but while it's a strong one, i don't know the it fits as cleanly with the rest of the album. would have been sensational on Sup 75.
3. re-order the lineup.
Side 1
HE
Walking
i don't want to lose you?
maybe include Can We love again

Side 2
Only you
Don't let my teardrops
you keep me moving on
you're what's missing

**RanRan79** · 03-19-2019, 11:55 AM

I don't care for Mary's lead on this. It is dull. The track is very nice, and I'm crazy about the actual intro. Would've loved for Scherrie to have taken a stab at this instead of Mary. But Mary's forte was ballads. She excelled at background singing- as any good singer should- and she also excelled at tackling ballads. "Til the Boat" however is not one of them. I also don't care for "Where Is It I Belong", but that's not Mary's fault. And I don't like "I Don't Want to Lose You" or "I Keep It Hid" either, both of which are pretty boring vocals IMO, although I've never heard a version of "I Don't Want to Lose You" that I actually like, so that might not be Mary's fault either. But "Don't Let the Teardrops", "You Are the Heart of Me" and "A Heart Like Mine" are Wilson at her best. She gave good vocal performances and crap vocal performances depending on the song, just like any other singer.

**jim aka jtigre99** · 03-19-2019, 12:44 PM

I think everyone has their own preference. I certainly liked Mary's vocals on Touch, yet I never really personally liked the song as much as other ones that should have been singles. In comparison, I never heard Scherrie really excel on ballads until I heard her FLOs track Keep on Lovin Me, which is a real gem. Jean was okay on I Guess I'll Miss The Man but her voice seemingly wanted to soar and I was only lukewarm on that song. I always preferred Mary's warm vocal caress on ballads over Diana's sometimes too sweet, syrupy vocals on ballads. That is not too say I don't love Ross' distinctive and pliable vocals but I really love Wilson's vocals on ballads and standards. It is called personal preference. All vocalists have better songs and performances than others. I have to say that the Supremes were so rich in untapped vocals, there wasn't any Supreme who wasn't a terrific singer.

**marv2** · 03-19-2019, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

I think everyone has their own preference. I certainly liked Mary's vocals on Touch, yet I never really personally liked the song as much as other ones that should have been singles. In comparison, I never heard Scherrie really excel on ballads until I heard her FLOs track Keep on Lovin Me, which is a real gem. Jean was okay on I Guess I'll Miss The Man but her voice seemingly wanted to soar and I was only lukewarm on that song. I always preferred Mary's warm vocal caress on ballads over Diana's sometimes too sweet, syrupy vocals on ballads. That is not too say I don't love Ross' distinctive and pliable vocals but I really love Wilson's vocals on ballads and standards. It is called personal preference. All vocalists have better songs and performances than others. I have to say that the Supremes were so rich in untapped vocals, there wasn't any Supreme who wasn't a terrific singer.

I agree. I really like songs like "Where Is It I Belong" [[which is pretty popular on Youtube with those that are just discovering it) and "You Turn Me Around", a perfect 70s radio ballard.

**lucky2012** · 03-19-2019, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

I don't care for Mary's lead on this. It is dull. The track is very nice, and I'm crazy about the actual intro. Would've loved for Scherrie to have taken a stab at this instead of Mary. But Mary's forte was ballads. She excelled at background singing- as any good singer should- and she also excelled at tackling ballads. "Til the Boat" however is not one of them. I also don't care for "Where Is It I Belong", but that's not Mary's fault. And I don't like "I Don't Want to Lose You" or "I Keep It Hid" either, both of which are pretty boring vocals IMO, although I've never heard a version of "I Don't Want to Lose You" that I actually like, so that might not be Mary's fault either. But "Don't Let the Teardrops", "You Are the Heart of Me" and "A Heart Like Mine" are Wilson at her best. She gave good vocal performances and crap vocal performances depending on the song, just like any other singer.

RanRan, why are you always expressing my thoughts?! So much better, too. It's uncanny but irritating. I only disagree about "Don't Let The Teardrops" - I never liked that song or performance. I agree about "You Are the Heart of Me" and "A Heart Like Mine" - my two favorite Mary vocals in the 70's Supremes.

"Where Is It I Belong" is probably my least favorite Mary vocal, ever.

**144man** · 03-19-2019, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

I don't care for Mary's lead on this. It is dull. The track is very nice, and I'm crazy about the actual intro. Would've loved for Scherrie to have taken a stab at this instead of Mary. But Mary's forte was ballads. She excelled at background singing- as any good singer should- and she also excelled at tackling ballads. "Til the Boat" however is not one of them. I also don't care for "Where Is It I Belong", but that's not Mary's fault. And I don't like "I Don't Want to Lose You" or "I Keep It Hid" either, both of which are pretty boring vocals IMO, although I've never heard a version of "I Don't Want to Lose You" that I actually like, so that might not be Mary's fault either. But "Don't Let the Teardrops", "You Are the Heart of Me" and "A Heart Like Mine" are Wilson at her best. She gave good vocal performances and crap vocal performances depending on the song, just like any other singer.

I've always had a fondness for "I Don't Want to Lose You".

**Bluebrock** · 03-19-2019, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

I don't care for Mary's lead on this. It is dull. The track is very nice, and I'm crazy about the actual intro. Would've loved for Scherrie to have taken a stab at this instead of Mary. But Mary's forte was ballads. She excelled at background singing- as any good singer should- and she also excelled at tackling ballads. "Til the Boat" however is not one of them. I also don't care for "Where Is It I Belong", but that's not Mary's fault. And I don't like "I Don't Want to Lose You" or "I Keep It Hid" either, both of which are pretty boring vocals IMO, although I've never heard a version of "I Don't Want to Lose You" that I actually like, so that might not be Mary's fault either. But "Don't Let the Teardrops", "You Are the Heart of Me" and "A Heart Like Mine" are Wilson at her best. She gave good vocal performances and crap vocal performances depending on the song, just like any other singer.

I love the Spinners version of I don't wanna lose you. Much better than the Supremes version. I would have loved to have heard Scherrie tackle some of the leads given to Mary. Imagine Scherrie having the full lead on He's my man and Early Morning Love. I would also have loved to have heard Scherrie singing lead on a couple of ballads. She would have done a far better job than Mary. Such a lost opportunity.

**pghmusiclover** · 03-19-2019, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by 144man

I've always had a fondness for "I Don't Want to Lose You".

me too... by Phyllis Hyman!

**sup_fan** · 03-19-2019, 04:35 PM

completely agree that there's a difference between an uninspiring song and an uninspiring vocal performance of a song.

IMO Where Is it I Belong is a dumb song. the lyric is corny and the chorus lyric is too repetitive. the melody isn't very engaging

A Heart Like Mine is a strong song - from a structure, lyrical and melody perspective. But i think mary's vocal performance is bland and boring. she doesn't seem to really inject much interpretation of the lyric or melody and just sings it very straight forward. much more she could do with it.

Jean was a marvelous singer able to cover a variety of songs and genres. Listen to her gorgeous But I Love You More and Then I met You. I like IGIMTM. sure Jean can go to town and rip a song apart. this one showed how delicate and restrained she could also be. Not every song requires excessive vocal gymnastics.

once scherrie joined, i think it was a shame that the girls were so locked into their specific genres. Scherrie really never got much of a chance to sing much other than the big dance tracks because mary "owned" the ballads. would love to have heard Scherrie on a few of them. Listen to how she handles the lyrics of Sweet Dream machine. amazing!

**marv2** · 03-19-2019, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by pghmusiclover

me too... by Phyllis Hyman!

I liked the original by the Spinners and of course the Supremes version.

**daviddh** · 03-19-2019, 06:22 PM

boring!!!!!!!!!!!!! dull....dead on arrival

**RanRan79** · 03-19-2019, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

I think everyone has their own preference. I certainly liked Mary's vocals on Touch, yet I never really personally liked the song as much as other ones that should have been singles. In comparison, I never heard Scherrie really excel on ballads until I heard her FLOs track Keep on Lovin Me, which is a real gem. Jean was okay on I Guess I'll Miss The Man but her voice seemingly wanted to soar and I was only lukewarm on that song. I always preferred Mary's warm vocal caress on ballads over Diana's sometimes too sweet, syrupy vocals on ballads. That is not too say I don't love Ross' distinctive and pliable vocals but I really love Wilson's vocals on ballads and standards. It is called personal preference. All vocalists have better songs and performances than others. I have to say that the Supremes were so rich in untapped vocals, there wasn't any Supreme who wasn't a terrific singer.

Yes, "Touch" was another good Mary vocal. I am so hoping that the full Mary version [[and the full Jean version) eventually see the light of day. I disagree about "I Guess I'll Miss the Man". Jean's voice is the only reason I really like the song. However, it's interesting to speculate how good it might also have been had Mary taken a turn at it. Seems like it would be up her alley.

**RanRan79** · 03-19-2019, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by lucky2012

RanRan, why are you always expressing my thoughts?! So much better, too. It's uncanny but irritating. I only disagree about "Don't Let The Teardrops" - I never liked that song or performance. I agree about "You Are the Heart of Me" and "A Heart Like Mine" - my two favorite Mary vocals in the 70's Supremes.

"Where Is It I Belong" is probably my least favorite Mary vocal, ever.

Lol Lucky, great minds think alike!

"Teardrops"...the song is good on it's own, but Mary really bites into it. But that version the girls did on one of the talk shows is superb. The background harmonies and then Mary's lead...great stuff.

Glad to see I'm not alone on "A Heart Like Mine". I'm pretty sure it sits at the top of my list of Mary leads period, but especially in the 70s. My least fav Mary lead: "Come and Get These Memories". HDH appears to be unaware of how much danger they'll be in if we ever cross paths because of their decision to give Mary that lead.

Absolutely horrible decision. That was more Flo's thing. If I were going to give Mary anything on A Go Go it might have been "Put Yourself In My Place", but beyond that I don't think any of those songs played to Mary's strengths.

**RanRan79** · 03-19-2019, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by 144man

I've always had a fondness for "I Don't Want to Lose You".

I find Mary's vocal boring, but like I said, the song itself I just never like no matter who sings it. So a more inspired Mary vocal probably wouldn't change my opinion.

**RanRan79** · 03-19-2019, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

I love the Spinners version of I don't wanna lose you. Much better than the Supremes version. I would have loved to have heard Scherrie tackle some of the leads given to Mary. Imagine Scherrie having the full lead on He's my man and Early Morning Love. I would also have loved to have heard Scherrie singing lead on a couple of ballads. She would have done a far better job than Mary. Such a lost opportunity.

In hindsight it might have made a bit more sense for Scherrie to have all of "He's My Man". Other than "Floy Joy", the Supremes never did have much success in singles with them trading lead vocals. "Touch" might have suffered from the duet. It may have been more effective as a solo or as...gasp...a duet with the Tops. "Floy Joy" paid off, but then "Automatically" faltered [[even though IMO it is a far better song than "Floy"). So why do another duel lead as the first single of the new grouping? Makes no sense considering they only struck "gold" with that format once.

I was disappointed to learn that there isn't a Scherrie lead version of "Early Morning Love" as has been rumored. Just like I'm dying to hear Scherrie's version of "Want Ads", I've been dying to hear what she did with "Early" because I just knew she tore it up. That being said, while I've already stated my belief that Mary's strength was in ballads, I adore her lead on "Early". I think it showed real growth in what she could handle vocally, that she didn't always need the ballads. Likewise, it would have been nice for Scherrie to showcase [[on record) that she didn't always need the uptempo stuff.

**RanRan79** · 03-19-2019, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by pghmusiclover

me too... by Phyllis Hyman!

I am wild about Phyllis Hyman and the Spinners, and of course the Supremes. But none of them could make me like this song.

Some songs I like no matter who is singing it [["There Goes My Baby"..."Walk On By"..."Going Out of My Head", to name a few) and then others I hate no matter who is singing [["I Don't Want to Lose You"..."I Say a Little Prayer", to name two). I guess it's just one of those things.

**RanRan79** · 03-19-2019, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

completely agree that there's a difference between an uninspiring song and an uninspiring vocal performance of a song.

IMO Where Is it I Belong is a dumb song. the lyric is corny and the chorus lyric is too repetitive. the melody isn't very engaging

A Heart Like Mine is a strong song - from a structure, lyrical and melody perspective. But i think mary's vocal performance is bland and boring. she doesn't seem to really inject much interpretation of the lyric or melody and just sings it very straight forward. much more she could do with it.

Jean was a marvelous singer able to cover a variety of songs and genres. Listen to her gorgeous But I Love You More and Then I met You. I like IGIMTM. sure Jean can go to town and rip a song apart. this one showed how delicate and restrained she could also be. Not every song requires excessive vocal gymnastics.

once scherrie joined, i think it was a shame that the girls were so locked into their specific genres. Scherrie really never got much of a chance to sing much other than the big dance tracks because mary "owned" the ballads. would love to have heard Scherrie on a few of them. Listen to how she handles the lyrics of Sweet Dream machine. amazing!

Agree with all of this except "A Heart Like Mine". I think Mary's interpretation fits well with the spirit of the lyrics. Could she have gone for something more? Sure, but in this case I think less was more. As I said previously, "AHLM" is probably my favorite Mary lead period.

**RanRan79** · 03-19-2019, 10:12 PM

I forgot about "You Turn Me Around" and "Can We Love Again". Not necessarily favs of mine, but Mary does a good job on both.

**Bluebrock** · 03-20-2019, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by pghmusiclover

me too... by Phyllis Hyman!

Yes, that is a great version too. Very emotive.

**Bluebrock** · 03-20-2019, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by daviddh

boring!!!!!!!!!!!!! dull....dead on arrival

For sure. Dull as ditchwater. Little wonder the Supremes died a slow lingering death. It must have been so frustrating for Scherrie having to play 2nd fiddle to an infinitely inferior vocalist. Pedro had a lot to answer for.

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 10:33 AM

I'd barely label He's My Man as a duet. mary does all of the verses, the choruses are group. scherrie certainly sings more than Cindy but basically does the ending. Same as i wouldn't label Long Gone Lover as a duet between D and F.

HMM would never have been a massive pop hit - the lyric is frankly a bit too silly. although i think it certainly could have done much better. it needed scherrie - not mary - on lead

also what chart did HMM go #1 on? here's the list of the weekly #1 dance hits for 75 according to Billboard and HMM is NOT listed. was it regional only?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_of_1975_[[U.S.)

**marv2** · 03-20-2019, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

I'd barely label He's My Man as a duet. mary does all of the verses, the choruses are group. scherrie certainly sings more than Cindy but basically does the ending. Same as i wouldn't label Long Gone Lover as a duet between D and F.

HMM would never have been a massive pop hit - the lyric is frankly a bit too silly. although i think it certainly could have done much better. it needed scherrie - not mary - on lead

also what chart did HMM go #1 on? here's the list of the weekly #1 dance hits for 75 according to Billboard and HMM is NOT listed. was it regional only?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_of_1975_[[U.S.)

I disagree with "He's My Man" would never have been a massive pop hit because of the lyric being too silly. I remember that during that same 12 month period, songs like "Kung Fu Fighting","Rockin' Chair", "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" and "Jive Talkin' " were all big hits and they all had some pretty "silly" lyrics. Why so hard on the Supremes? I know that their record did not receive much radio airplay at that time [[late summer of 1975) because Motown did not service it to the stations around the country.

**marv2** · 03-20-2019, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

I'd barely label He's My Man as a duet. mary does all of the verses, the choruses are group. scherrie certainly sings more than Cindy but basically does the ending. Same as i wouldn't label Long Gone Lover as a duet between D and F.

HMM would never have been a massive pop hit - the lyric is frankly a bit too silly. although i think it certainly could have done much better. it needed scherrie - not mary - on lead

also what chart did HMM go #1 on? here's the list of the weekly #1 dance hits for 75 according to Billboard and HMM is NOT listed. was it regional only?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_of_1975_[[U.S.)

"He's My Man" was number one on the U.S. Billboard Disco [[Regional) chart, which is now known as The Dance Club Songs chart :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He%27s_My_Man

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 12:31 PM

in which regional charts did it hit #1? i know it did - just wondering what regionals

The National Billboard Hot Club Dance Play started in 74, although Wikipedia says that it was originally labeled as Disco Action charts and focused on the NY metro area and what dj/clubs were playing.

In 75, Billboard began to expand to include other major metros like San Fran, Detroit, Boston, Chicago, Houston and more. Then on 8/26/76 it says it started a full national top 30 and charts. And Record World was also publishing a chart too

**Bluebrock** · 03-20-2019, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

I'd barely label He's My Man as a duet. mary does all of the verses, the choruses are group. scherrie certainly sings more than Cindy but basically does the ending. Same as i wouldn't label Long Gone Lover as a duet between D and F.

HMM would never have been a massive pop hit - the lyric is frankly a bit too silly. although i think it certainly could have done much better. it needed scherrie - not mary - on lead

also what chart did HMM go #1 on? here's the list of the weekly #1 dance hits for 75 according to Billboard and HMM is NOT listed. was it regional only?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_of_1975_[[U.S.)

I agree with you. A full Scherrie lead would have given the song a welcome boost. Mary's dull lead vocals are totally unsuitable to what should be a happy and energetic tune. Scherrie could have taken it to the next level and given it that all important crossover appeal. Mary was just not capable of injecting some much needed fizz and energy into the song. Yet another lost opportunity. Twas ever thus.

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 02:28 PM

I do appreciate that during the Scherrie years they were trying to do more shared leads and passing around lines. I think if scherrie had done the majority of the song they could have given M and C a few parts here and there to really play up the group elements. But you’re right. Mary was simply not adequate a vocalist to carry off this lead. Clearly a case of Mary and Pedro making demands.

In Mary’s book she actually she’s that whole reforming the group post L and J she wanted to take over lead vocal duties and Motown said no. What a slap in the face that was!!! Christ the woman had been singing with the group for 13 yrs and the company would let her lead?!?! Damn!

And then what do she and Pedro do - select as first single something in direct opposition to what Motown was wanted. Great way to leverage even the pittance of sullort the label would have offered

**Bluebrock** · 03-20-2019, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

I do appreciate that during the Scherrie years they were trying to do more shared leads and passing around lines. I think if scherrie had done the majority of the song they could have given M and C a few parts here and there to really play up the group elements. But you’re right. Mary was simply not adequate a vocalist to carry off this lead. Clearly a case of Mary and Pedro making demands.

In Mary’s book she actually she’s that whole reforming the group post L and J she wanted to take over lead vocal duties and Motown said no. What a slap in the face that was!!! Christ the woman had been singing with the group for 13 yrs and the company would let her lead?!?! Damn!

And then what do she and Pedro do - select as first single something in direct opposition to what Motown was wanted. Great way to leverage even the pittance of sullort the label would have offered

Berry knew she was not capable of taking over as lead vocalist, yet she gave herself far too many leads. By this time the Supremes had lost their identity. When Diana and Jean were in the group you knew straightaway that it was the Supremes even if you did not recognise the song, but by 1975 the group had lost it's identity . Scherrie should have been the lead singer on the vast majority of the songs which would have restored the girls identity, but of course Mary's inflated ego and Pedro's constant meddling led Motown to realise they were flogging a dead horse. The public lost interest, the fans lost interest and that was that. Poor Scherrie and Susaye were treated badly.

**marv2** · 03-20-2019, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

in which regional charts did it hit #1? i know it did - just wondering what regionals

The National Billboard Hot Club Dance Play started in 74, although Wikipedia says that it was originally labeled as Disco Action charts and focused on the NY metro area and what dj/clubs were playing.

In 75, Billboard began to expand to include other major metros like San Fran, Detroit, Boston, Chicago, Houston and more. Then on 8/26/76 it says it started a full national top 30 and charts. And Record World was also publishing a chart too

I don't know. I was 15 and I had basketball practice. LOL!

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 06:40 PM

^lolol didn't you have your transistor radio there to play the sups on the court?

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Berry knew she was not capable of taking over as lead vocalist, yet she gave herself far too many leads. By this time the Supremes had lost their identity. When Diana and Jean were in the group you knew straightaway that it was the Supremes even if you did not recognise the song, but by 1975 the group had lost it's identity . Scherrie should have been the lead singer on the vast majority of the songs which would have restored the girls identity, but of course Mary's inflated ego and Pedro's constant meddling led Motown to realise they were flogging a dead horse. The public lost interest, the fans lost interest and that was that. Poor Scherrie and Susaye were treated badly.

great point about the identifiable situation. Scherrie not only is a talented singer but a unique voice and tone. she really cuts through the track and pops. Mary has none of that. Even Lynda has a more pop and radio friendly voice - the technical skills plus the unique tone to grab your ear

now i agree that mary is recognizable in other others. besides just being in the group the longest, by the 70s she was able to take on a greater role of spokesperson and all. visually of course she's stunning. gorgeous. and so that's great that she was able to participate more in interviews and on talk shows, in their live shows, etc.

But scherrie should have been the primary lead

**RanRan79** · 03-20-2019, 06:51 PM

If during the MCS period Mary was in "I'm All Powerful" mode, she never would have asked Motown if she could take over lead singing duties. She would've just done it. Not to mention that it makes no sense to add a singer like Scherrie- who had already had her lead voice on a big hit single with another group- and then expect her to play second fiddle to Mary. Adding another Cindy type would've made more sense if Mary's goal was to be the next official lead singer and she was smart enough to know that.

Motown had already showed they really didn't give a nut about the Supremes at this point except to possibly milk whatever was left of value in the name, so why would they care if Mary was taking over lead singing duties? Whatever power anyone imagines that Mary had at Motown in the 70s she definitely didn't have power to choose a single, have it pressed and released and thus override the label's edict that she was not to be lead singer. So if the top brass at Motown was so neg on her voice and had no confidence in her ability to sale records, why would they choose "He's My Man" as the lead single, considering, as Sup Fan points out, that it really is mostly a Mary lead? And the idea that the label was so anti Mary as a singer doesn't hold up in wake of the fact that prior to "He's My Man", Motown commissioned the release of not one, but three singles- including a top five r&b and top 20 pop hit in "Floy Joy"- that featured Mary's lead singing prominently.

I'm not buying Mary's second book's anecdote [[which was probably added for a "poor Mary" effect) nor the speculation here about the reasons behind what I believe is an imaginary event simply because it does not make sense. There's a better case to be made about Motown being negative about the lead singing of Lynda or Cindy than there is for Mary.

**daviddh** · 03-20-2019, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

Berry knew she was not capable of taking over as lead vocalist, yet she gave herself far too many leads. By this time the Supremes had lost their identity. When Diana and Jean were in the group you knew straightaway that it was the Supremes even if you did not recognise the song, but by 1975 the group had lost it's identity . Scherrie should have been the lead singer on the vast majority of the songs which would have restored the girls identity, but of course Mary's inflated ego and Pedro's constant meddling led Motown to realise they were flogging a dead horse. The public lost interest, the fans lost interest and that was that. Poor Scherrie and Susaye were treated badly.

I agree Bluebrock. they group had potential with some talented ladies but Marys desire to be lead, hurt the group. she did record some good vocals, and I think the influence of Scherrie and Susaye had on Mary by the time MSS was released was huge. but it was to late. I think she felt she should be treated as Diana,being the last original member but, she didn't do her homework. I liked the 75 Supremes album but mostly the Scherrie leads. I did like You Turn Me Around. I understand some of Mary concerns in regards to the group but I think things could be handled so much better. I think you summed it up.the group lost its identity. Mary could have had leads in between the other ladies but it was overkill.by 1977 no one cared. sad end to a great history

**rod_rick** · 03-20-2019, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

If during the MCS period Mary was in "I'm All Powerful" mode, she never would have asked Motown if she could take over lead singing duties. She would've just done it. Not to mention that it makes no sense to add a singer like Scherrie- who had already had her lead voice on a big hit single with another group- and then expect her to play second fiddle to Mary. Adding another Cindy type would've made more sense if Mary's goal was to be the next official lead singer and she was smart enough to know that.

Motown had already showed they really didn't give a nut about the Supremes at this point except to possibly milk whatever was left of value in the name, so why would they care if Mary was taking over lead singing duties? Whatever power anyone imagines that Mary had at Motown in the 70s she definitely didn't have power to choose a single, have it pressed and released and thus override the label's edict that she was not to be lead singer. So if the top brass at Motown was so neg on her voice and had no confidence in her ability to sale records, why would they choose "He's My Man" as the lead single, considering, as Sup Fan points out, that it really is mostly a Mary lead? And the idea that the label was so anti Mary as a singer doesn't hold up in wake of the fact that prior to "He's My Man", Motown commissioned the release of not one, but three singles- including a top five r&b and top 20 pop hit in "Floy Joy"- that featured Mary's lead singing prominently.

I'm not buying Mary's second book's anecdote [[which was probably added for a "poor Mary" effect) nor the speculation here about the reasons behind what I believe is an imaginary event simply because it does not make sense. There's a better case to be made about Motown being negative about the lead singing of Lynda or Cindy than there is for Mary.

Mary was on lead for the last 2 top forty hits by the 70 Supremes prior to Scherrie going the group, so it would make sense to introduce Scherrie with He's My Man. Once introduced, Scherrie would get the Supremes their final top 40 hit. I actually prefer Mary on He's My Man than having Scherrie to do the entire song. IMO Mary adds a soft sultry to the lyrics that I don't get from Scherrie. The contrast of the two vocalist work for me

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

If during the MCS period Mary was in "I'm All Powerful" mode, she never would have asked Motown if she could take over lead singing duties. She would've just done it. Not to mention that it makes no sense to add a singer like Scherrie- who had already had her lead voice on a big hit single with another group- and then expect her to play second fiddle to Mary. Adding another Cindy type would've made more sense if Mary's goal was to be the next official lead singer and she was smart enough to know that.

Motown had already showed they really didn't give a nut about the Supremes at this point except to possibly milk whatever was left of value in the name, so why would they care if Mary was taking over lead singing duties? Whatever power anyone imagines that Mary had at Motown in the 70s she definitely didn't have power to choose a single, have it pressed and released and thus override the label's edict that she was not to be lead singer. So if the top brass at Motown was so neg on her voice and had no confidence in her ability to sale records, why would they choose "He's My Man" as the lead single, considering, as Sup Fan points out, that it really is mostly a Mary lead? And the idea that the label was so anti Mary as a singer doesn't hold up in wake of the fact that prior to "He's My Man", Motown commissioned the release of not one, but three singles- including a top five r&b and top 20 pop hit in "Floy Joy"- that featured Mary's lead singing prominently.

I'm not buying Mary's second book's anecdote [[which was probably added for a "poor Mary" effect) nor the speculation here about the reasons behind what I believe is an imaginary event simply because it does not make sense. There's a better case to be made about Motown being negative about the lead singing of Lynda or Cindy than there is for Mary.

The first single was to be It's All Been Said Before. That's what motown wanted to release but Mary and Pedro insisted on He's My Man.

now certainly some would say HMM is a stronger, more powerful song. But motown was not interested in promoting Mary leads. it had clearly not worked all that well doing the dual leads with M and J. FJ crept into the top 20 but neither Touch nor AS did anything significant.

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by rod_rick

Mary was on lead for the last 2 top forty hits by the 70 Supremes prior to Scherrie going the group, so it would make sense to introduce Scherrie with He's My Man. Once introduced, Scherrie would get the Supremes their final top 40 hit. I actually prefer Mary on He's My Man than having Scherrie to do the entire song. IMO Mary adds a soft sultry to the lyrics that I don't get from Scherrie. The contrast of the two vocalist work for me

i think it would have been effective to have M and C do a few soft and sexy lines in the song. Perhaps the middle verse could have been split in various ways among the girls.

But imagine if Scherrie had done the first verse and really given it power. The intro of the song really explodes. then to have the first verse be just as powerful would have possibly given it that extra bit it needed

**marv2** · 03-20-2019, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

^lolol didn't you have your transistor radio there to play the sups on the court?

You're getting your era's mixed up. In the mid 70s we didn't have [[at least no one I knew) transistor radios anymore. Were they still making them by then?

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

You're getting your era's mixed up. In the mid 70s we didn't have [[at least no one I knew) transistor radios anymore. Were they still making them by then?

haha - not sure of the production dates. Maybe you could have taken one of those portable 8-track players to the court lol

**marv2** · 03-20-2019, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by rod_rick

Mary was on lead for the last 2 top forty hits by the 70 Supremes prior to Scherrie going the group, so it would make sense to introduce Scherrie with He's My Man. Once introduced, Scherrie would get the Supremes their final top 40 hit. I actually prefer Mary on He's My Man than having Scherrie to do the entire song. IMO Mary adds a soft sultry to the lyrics that I don't get from Scherrie. The contrast of the two vocalist work for me

Same here Rod_rick. As soon as I hear Mary's voice, I know it is the Supremes. She sounded sexy as usual on that song:

**marv2** · 03-20-2019, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

haha - not sure of the production dates. Maybe you could have taken one of those portable 8-track players to the court lol

You were not born then were you? LOL!
It did not become "cool" to take your music around with you again until the 80s and the boom boxes, hehehehehehehe!

**sup_fan** · 03-20-2019, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

You were not born then were you? LOL!
It did not become "cool" to take your music around with you again until the 80s and the boom boxes, hehehehehehehe!

Oh whatever Transistor Sister!! Lol you know you were doing the portable tunes at the playground lol

**RanRan79** · 03-20-2019, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by daviddh

I agree Bluebrock. they group had potential with some talented ladies but Marys desire to be lead, hurt the group. she did record some good vocals, and I think the influence of Scherrie and Susaye had on Mary by the time MSS was released was huge. but it was to late. I think she felt she should be treated as Diana,being the last original member but, she didn't do her homework. I liked the 75 Supremes album but mostly the Scherrie leads. I did like You Turn Me Around. I understand some of Mary concerns in regards to the group but I think things could be handled so much better. I think you summed it up.the group lost its identity. Mary could have had leads in between the other ladies but it was overkill.by 1977 no one cared. sad end to a great history

How did it hurt the group? How was it overkill? Mary shared lead vocals on three singles while Jean was in the group, one of which became a hit record. During the Scherrie era, Mary basically sang lead on "He's My Man" and that was it. The subsequent singles were led by the other ladies. I would hardly call that overkill. Mary wouldn't sing lead on a Supremes single for the rest of the duration of the group. As far as albums were concerned- not that the 70s were big album years for the Supremes anyway- Mary did do half the leads on Supremes 75, two full leads and a partial on both High Energy and MSS. But I hardly think the album buying public was like "Mary has leads? No thanks."

Those albums suffered from either lack of label support or from the general public simply moving on to more innovative and interesting acts [[like Labelle and the Pointer Sisters). Mary wasn't anymore the cause of the latter than Motown was. Perhaps had all parties involved thought to do something different with the Supremes musically things might have played out different. While a lot of the stuff was good on it's own, I will never believe that the public really bought the name Supremes being associated with disco and that type of songs. As you point out the group did have an identity- a brand, if you will- and the group probably would've done better focusing on sophisticated soul instead.

**RanRan79** · 03-20-2019, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by rod_rick

Mary was on lead for the last 2 top forty hits by the 70 Supremes prior to Scherrie going the group, so it would make sense to introduce Scherrie with He's My Man. Once introduced, Scherrie would get the Supremes their final top 40 hit. I actually prefer Mary on He's My Man than having Scherrie to do the entire song. IMO Mary adds a soft sultry to the lyrics that I don't get from Scherrie. The contrast of the two vocalist work for me

I think I agree with you the more I think about it, regarding Mary on "He's My Man". I'm wondering if the chorus is what lost people?

**RanRan79** · 03-20-2019, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

The first single was to be It's All Been Said Before. That's what motown wanted to release but Mary and Pedro insisted on He's My Man.

now certainly some would say HMM is a stronger, more powerful song. But motown was not interested in promoting Mary leads. it had clearly not worked all that well doing the dual leads with M and J. FJ crept into the top 20 but neither Touch nor AS did anything significant.

Again, let's be clear, Mary and Pedro had no power at Motown. None. Zilch. Zero. They held some degree of power over the Supremes, particularly the day to day operations. But neither of them was in position to go to Motown and say release this or that or don't release this or that. When have you ever heard of a Motown act other than probably the big four [[Diana, Marvin, Stevie and Smokey) having any real say so over such things? So if Motown ever contemplated releasing "Said Before" [[which would've been a horrible decision, even though it's a nice song) as the first single, it was Motown who changed their minds and went for "He's My Man". Someone with the power to do so apparently liked Mary's voice enough to make that decision. So Motown didn't want to promote Mary leads, but they didn't mind releasing them? They didn't mind putting money into pressing and shipping the singles but they wouldn't dare put an ounce into promotion because it's Mary? Why did Motown apparently ignore every single after "Heart Do the Walking"? Mary's voice certainly wasn't the reason for that, and it would appear Motown wasn't enamored with the voices of Scherrie or Susaye either, considering how well their lead singing singles performed.

**Bluebrock** · 03-21-2019, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by RanRan79

How did it hurt the group? How was it overkill? Mary shared lead vocals on three singles while Jean was in the group, one of which became a hit record. During the Scherrie era, Mary basically sang lead on "He's My Man" and that was it. The subsequent singles were led by the other ladies. I would hardly call that overkill. Mary wouldn't sing lead on a Supremes single for the rest of the duration of the group. As far as albums were concerned- not that the 70s were big album years for the Supremes anyway- Mary did do half the leads on Supremes 75, two full leads and a partial on both High Energy and MSS. But I hardly think the album buying public was like "Mary has leads? No thanks."

Those albums suffered from either lack of label support or from the general public simply moving on to more innovative and interesting acts [[like Labelle and the Pointer Sisters). Mary wasn't anymore the cause of the latter than Motown was. Perhaps had all parties involved thought to do something different with the Supremes musically things might have played out different. While a lot of the stuff was good on it's own, I will never believe that the public really bought the name Supremes being associated with disco and that type of songs. As you point out the group did have an identity- a brand, if you will- and the group probably would've done better focusing on sophisticated soul instead.

In the UK "Early morning love" was chosen as the follow up to "He's my man". This was another Mary Wilson lead vocal , and it became one of only a very small handful of Supremes singles that totally missed reaching the top 100, along with Touch. I still maintain that Scherrie would have done a far better job on these tunes. Mary's delivery was just dull and uninspiring. Her voice bored the general public.

**RanRan79** · 03-21-2019, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Bluebrock

In the UK "Early morning love" was chosen as the follow up to "He's my man". This was another Mary Wilson lead vocal , and it became one of only a very small handful of Supremes singles that totally missed reaching the top 100, along with Touch. I still maintain that Scherrie would have done a far better job on these tunes. Mary's delivery was just dull and uninspiring. Her voice bored the general public.

I can't take issue with your dislike of Mary's voice. Everyone is entitled to their opinions regarding each voice of the Supremes, and obviously so many of us have our likes and dislikes. However, saying stuff like "her voice bored the general public" just doesn't make sense because you really have no way of showing evidence of that. To suggest that this is true based on the public's reaction to "Early Morning Love", you would then have to explain the public's reaction to the singles released after it. And judging from the limited information I have been able to track down on the net, it don't look like anything the Supremes did during the Scherrie years excited the UK and only "Heart Walking" did anything for the group in the States. The last two top ten hits the Supremes had in the UK were two Mary duets. So why would they dig her voice in 72 but not in 75? It seems to me like there's blame for the downfall of the Supremes being placed on Mary's shoulders for all the wrong reasons. Yes, she definitely had a hand in that, but there's no evidence to suggest that this had anything to do with Mary's voice, anymore than it had to do with Scherrie or Susaye, because nobody in the States or in the UK rushed out to buy "High Energy" or "Let Yourself Go", or anything Scherrie and Susaye released as soloist when the group was done.