Workin' Overtime..... 30 Years Old

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Chic's next album would tank when it came out a couple of months after DIANA. I wouldn't completely blame the anti-disco sentiments that existed that Rodgers mentions, the album stank then and still does to this day.

I quite liked that album [[particularly '26' and 'I Loved You More') but there weren't any obvious hits on it.

I wonder how that Sheila & B. Devotion project came to be?? They were European and only popular there. How did they team up?

I think it was just that her record company got in touch with Nile/Nard after she'd had a hit with a disco version of 'Singin in the Rain' as they were wanting a hit album [[which didn't quite work out even though 'Spacer' was a reasonable success though not in the US).

[sup_fan]

aside from the snarkiness going on here, i do agree with the general statement that her return to motown failed to have much oomph or excitement around her initial release. maybe the label agreed with her and pretty much everyone else that the album wasn't a winner.

There have been lots of stories about her alienating people - some probably true, some probably fiction. But maybe the making of the WO album was stressful too for all involved and so that added to the atmosphere.

[Guy]

I quite liked that album [[particularly '26' and 'I Loved You More') but there weren't any obvious hits on it.

Agree. Musically, "Real People" is elegant and funky and shows Nile & Bernard trying to move beyond disco. It still holds up today. Unfortunately, Chic was so synonymous with disco it suffered the backlash.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Fact remains "WO" sold rings around/multiples of/exponentially better/hella more than anything any other Supreme issued as a solo. In fact, probably more than all of them put together over the entire course of their careers. The advantage the out-of-the-box, first-solo-project scud-missile bomb debuts have is that there is never any success in the first place to come down from.

[motownlover1964]

I find it odd that while discussing Working Overtime the topic of sales, or lack thereof, of the other Supreme's is brought up. Why is that necessary in this thread?

We ALL know that Diana has the career, the hits, the movies and is still selling out concerts; that is not new information. I find it disconcerting to drag the other Supremes "down" in this thread. It's mean-spirited and so unnecessary.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I find it odd that while discussing Working Overtime the topic of sales, or lack thereof, of the other Supreme's is brought up. Why is that necessary in this thread?

We ALL know that Diana has the career, the hits, the movies and is still selling out concerts; that is not new information. I find it disconcerting to drag the other Supremes "down" in this thread. It's mean-spirited and so unnecessary.

Hi there Motownlover! I believe that it is necessary as there are several here who don't believe your first sentence is correct. Best to you!

[motownlover1964]

Thanks, PNH. After I posted it I had second thoughts as I didn't want to be perceived as giving you a load of b.s. I appreciated your response. Kind regards to you, too.

[Ollie9]

WO it seems is a bit like marmite, you either love it or hate it. I for one have always loved it.
Perhaps Diana could have played it safe and made a more pop orientated album to mark her return to the company. It probably would have been the sensible thing to do. As it was she took a risk, put the sequin frocks in storage and went for it.
IMO the album is fresh and innovative, featuring some really inspiring songs and sensitive ballads. My only critique being the vocals are a little to high on a couple of the songs.
For fans who hate the album, i find it just as perplexing how anyone can enjoy the soulless and quite anaemic WDFFIL project..... Horses for courses as we say in the UK.

[sup_fan]

Maybe the album would have been better received if 1) the songs were recut in a slightly lower key and 2) there was a big more variety on the album. she dove into the deep end with this sound and perhaps wading in from the shallow end would have been more prudent. Add in a few more classic pop/r&b tunes and cut some of the harsher material. But she'd still have some up to date and modern tracks like Bottom Like, Say We Can, etc.

[sup_fan]

another angle that we've not discussed is Motown as a label. by the late 80s, motown was NOT the solid and innovative label it once was. frankly it had never rebounded from their peak years in the 60s. if one was looking to find hot and new hip hop and new jack swing music, motown would not have been an initial label you'd have looked to. So perhaps some blame falls on them too. perhaps they were desperate as a label to crack this category and hoped that a mega name like DIANA ROSS would help facilitate that.

also Diana didn't initially sign with Motown. after she left RCA she signed with MCA and released If We Hold On Together on that label. MCA then bought motown and "they" decided to place diana back on her home label. not sure exactly who all decided or pushed for this - did diana ask for it once the sale was finalized? did the MCA execs want to do it? did the motown team request it?

[Boogiedown]

another angle that we've not discussed is Motown as a label. by the late 80s, motown was NOT the solid and innovative label it once was. frankly it had never rebounded from their peak years in the 60s. if one was looking to find hot and new hip hop and new jack swing music, motown would not have been an initial label you'd have looked to. So perhaps some blame falls on them too. perhaps they were desperate as a label to crack this category and hoped that a mega name like DIANA ROSS would help facilitate that.

also Diana didn't initially sign with Motown. after she left RCA she signed with MCA and released If We Hold On Together on that label. MCA then bought motown and "they" decided to place diana back on her home label. not sure exactly who all decided or pushed for this - did diana ask for it once the sale was finalized? did the MCA execs want to do it? did the motown team request it?

In my poking around , I was surprised to discover this, and was about to get into it as well. Diana Ross signed with MCA and was flabbergasted that about that time MCA then bought out Motown and wanted to transition her to that label! The way I read it, if Diana had any idea it was headed this way she never would've signed with MCA.
I guess Berry talked her into going along with it, got some perks added to the deal, a partial ownership for her.
So maybe WORKIN' OVERTIME was an MCA project that then wound up being on Motown?? This to me would explain the decision to approach her first Motown album this way, with this kind of content . Because even if Motown was no longer the label it once was , they still had a strong roster of acts from Diana's era, it [[to me) defies logic that you wouldn't tap into that to create a welcome back to the family story line.

One thing that is clear , there was little fanfare centered around Diana's return , so it doesn't seem like a thrill abounded from any angle.

What also still puzzles me is why choose Nile Rodgers and then not really use him . Looks like all the programming of the synths were done by Greg Smith and Nile mostly hung around.

Here're some rather unconvincing comments imo about this project from Diana:

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=Boogiedown;507799]In my poking around , I was surprised to discover this, and was about to get into it as well. Diana Ross signed with MCA and was flabbergasted that about that time MCA then bought out Motown and wanted to transition her to that label! The way I read it, if Diana had any idea it was headed this way she never would've signed with MCA.
I guess Berry talked her into going along with it, got some perks added to the deal, a partial ownership for her.
So maybe WORKIN' OVERTIME was an MCA project that then wound up being on Motown?? This to me would explain the decision to approach her first Motown album this way, with this kind of content . Because even if Motown was no longer the label it once was , they still had a strong roster of acts from Diana's era, it [[to me) defies logic that you wouldn't tap into that to create a welcome back to the family story line.

One thing that is clear , there was little fanfare centered around Diana's return , so it doesn't seem like a thrill abounded from any angle.

What also still puzzles me is why choose Nile Rodgers and then not really use him . Looks like all the programming of the synths were done by Greg Smith and Nile mostly hung around./QUOTE]

An interesting post, but why do you think Diana would have been flabbergasted at the thought of returning to motown and why do you think she would never have signed with MCA had she known what might happen?.
Berry said in his book that Diana rang him begging him not to sell Motown and that she was ready to return to the label. It's no secret that she was unhappy at RCA and felt she wasn't supported. She has also said herself in interviews that leaving the label made her realise all the things motown actually did for her.
Despite any synth programming, i think the WO album sounds a lot looser then diana did which at times is a little mechanical sounding. I never thought that much of the Chic mixes, but have since come to appreciate the more spacious, funky arrangements.

[Boogiedown]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;507886]

In my poking around , I was surprised to discover this, and was about to get into it as well. Diana Ross signed with MCA and was flabbergasted that about that time MCA then bought out Motown and wanted to transition her to that label! The way I read it, if Diana had any idea it was headed this way she never would've signed with MCA.
I guess Berry talked her into going along with it, got some perks added to the deal, a partial ownership for her.
So maybe WORKIN' OVERTIME was an MCA project that then wound up being on Motown?? This to me would explain the decision to approach her first Motown album this way, with this kind of content . Because even if Motown was no longer the label it once was , they still had a strong roster of acts from Diana's era, it [[to me) defies logic that you wouldn't tap into that to create a welcome back to the family story line.

One thing that is clear , there was little fanfare centered around Diana's return , so it doesn't seem like a thrill abounded from any angle.

What also still puzzles me is why choose Nile Rodgers and then not really use him . Looks like all the programming of the synths were done by Greg Smith and Nile mostly hung around./QUOTE]

An interesting post, but why do you think Diana would have been flabbergasted at the thought of returning to motown and why do you think she would never have signed with MCA had she known what might happen?.
Berry said in his book that Diana rang him begging him not to sell Motown and that she was ready to return to the label. It's no secret that she was unhappy at RCA and felt she wasn't supported. She has also said herself in interviews that leaving the label made her realise all the things motown actually did for her.
Despite any synth programming, i think the WO album sounds a lot looser then diana did which at times is a little mechanical sounding. I never thought that much of the Chic mixes, but have since come to appreciate the more spacious, funky arrangements.

Ollie, I read it in an interview of Diana Ross I stumbled on. I'll look for it, and post a link , hope I can find it again. I don't want to misstate what I recall reading.

RE: The sound on WO. I wasn't following Nile Rodgers by this time , was that the kind of music he was doing I wonder ? Otherwise what made Diana Ross think of him ? Doesn't make sense from a guitarist.

If Diana had an awakening and re-appreciated Motown , why did her return wind up so lackluster ? Shouldn't there have been champagne toasts all-around? If Diana was happy , [[ which you'd expect her say publically regardless) then it must be as marv says , it was Motown then that wasn't thrilled being stuck with her. They may have looked at it that way if MCA said , "here's Diana Ross , you've got no choice ."
And maybe it was simply bad timing. Motown must have been in turmoil , Berry Gordy handing them off to MCA.

Still they were fools to not have capitalized on it. Did Lionel Richie say "no way!". Smokey? Weren't they all needing a little career boost ? They didn't perceive opportunity ?

That album cover should have been of Diana Ross standing in front of Hitsville USA, looking gleeful , arms raised , armpits showing ..."here I am back where I belong!".

[marv2]

[QUOTE=Boogiedown;507911]

Ollie, I read it in an interview of Diana Ross I stumbled on. I'll look for it, and post a link , hope I can find it again. I don't want to misstate what I recall reading.

RE: The sound on WO. I wasn't following Nile Rodgers by this time , was that the kind of music he was doing I wonder ? Otherwise what made Diana Ross think of him ? Doesn't make sense from a guitarist.

If Diana had an awakening and re-appreciated Motown , why did her return wind up so lackluster ? Shouldn't there have been champagne toasts all-around? If Diana was happy , [[ which you'd expect her say publically regardless) then it must be as marv says , it was Motown then that wasn't thrilled being stuck with her. They may have looked at it that way if MCA said , "here's Diana Ross , you've got no choice ."
And maybe it was simply bad timing. Motown must have been in turmoil , Berry Gordy handing them off to MCA.

Still they were fools to not have capitalized on it. Did Lionel Richie say "no way!". Smokey? Weren't they all needing a little career boost ? They didn't perceive opportunity ?

That album cover should have been of Diana Ross standing in front of Hitsville USA, looking gleeful , arms raised , armpits showing ..."here I am back where I belong!".

She, Diana Ross said at the time that she was listening to a lot of music her kids were listening to and wanted to do something similar. It just didn't work. It was totally not the image of her that had been cemented with the public.

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=Boogiedown;507911]

Ollie, I read it in an interview of Diana Ross I stumbled on. I'll look for it, and post a link , hope I can find it again. I don't want to misstate what I recall reading.

RE: The sound on WO. I wasn't following Nile Rodgers by this time , was that the kind of music he was doing I wonder ? Otherwise what made Diana Ross think of him ? Doesn't make sense from a guitarist.

If Diana had an awakening and re-appreciated Motown , why did her return wind up so lackluster ? Shouldn't there have been champagne toasts all-around? If Diana was happy , [[ which you'd expect her say publically regardless) then it must be as marv says , it was Motown then that wasn't thrilled being stuck with her. They may have looked at it that way if MCA said , "here's Diana Ross , you've got no choice ."
And maybe it was simply bad timing. Motown must have been in turmoil , Berry Gordy handing them off to MCA.

Still they were fools to not have capitalized on it. Did Lionel Richie say "no way!". Smokey? Weren't they all needing a little career boost ? They didn't perceive opportunity ?

That album cover should have been of Diana Ross standing in front of Hitsville USA, looking gleeful , arms raised , armpits showing ..."here I am back where I belong!".

I would really love to read that interview boogie if you can find it.
There was a fair bit of promotion for the album, at least in the UK. Diana has never been one for sentimentality or nostalgia so i would imagine the last thing in the world she would have wanted at that point in time was an album cover of her standing in front of Hitsville.
Had Lionel or Smokey wanted to be involved with her return album i feel sure Diana would have said thanks, but no thanks. I think the only reason she hooked up with Nile is because of the "diana" connection. Jam & Lewis would have been a far better choice. One only has to listen to Janet Jacksons "Rhythm Nation" to realise this
Obviously for those who enjoy Diana's adult contemporary material or her work with the Supremes, WO is most probably not going to be the album for you.

[marv2]

another angle that we've not discussed is Motown as a label. by the late 80s, motown was NOT the solid and innovative label it once was. frankly it had never rebounded from their peak years in the 60s. if one was looking to find hot and new hip hop and new jack swing music, motown would not have been an initial label you'd have looked to. So perhaps some blame falls on them too. perhaps they were desperate as a label to crack this category and hoped that a mega name like DIANA ROSS would help facilitate that.

also Diana didn't initially sign with Motown. after she left RCA she signed with MCA and released If We Hold On Together on that label. MCA then bought motown and "they" decided to place diana back on her home label. not sure exactly who all decided or pushed for this - did diana ask for it once the sale was finalized? did the MCA execs want to do it? did the motown team request it?

It really didn't matter what company name was printed on the label of her records at that point, because by that time she was considered by the public to be an oldies artist. No one that I can remember cared about any new material she released or would release moving forward.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

No one that I can remember cared about any new material she released or would release moving forward.

You should have made some British friends and they could have told you about the two Top10 and three Top40 songs that charted from 'The Force Behind The Power' album a couple of years later

[marv2]

You should have made some British friends and they could have told you about the two Top10 and three Top40 songs that charted from 'The Force Behind The Power' album a couple of years later

We didn't have the internet then and in America, hardly anyone has ever heard that song or others from that album.

In America, Diana Ross was a member of the Supremes in the 60s and a Disco diva in the 70s. That is what the general public here will think of when her name is mentioned. Many have forgotten that she made some movies, but if you mention Lady Sings the Blues, they will remember if they are of a certain age.

[Roberta75]

We didn't have the internet then and in America, hardly anyone has ever heard that song or others from that album.

In America, Diana Ross was a member of the Supremes in the 60s and a Disco diva in the 70s. That is what the general public hear will think of when her name is mentioned. Many have forgotten that she made some movies, but if you mention Lady Sings the Blues, they will remember if they are of a certain age.

Again with the fabricattions and fake news. you know thats not really true because you mention Diane Ross every single day so thank you for keeping this Presidential Medal of Freedom award lady and Kennedy Center honoree in the news and helping her sell out Radio City Music Hall in hours. You really are her greatest fan and stalker.

[sup_fan]

well if anything, her first MCA effort [[if we hold on) is MUCH more Diana than anything on WO. It's a nice song but nothing overly special. Just sort of a typical DR ballad that you can hold hands and sway to. frankly she's done more than enough of those and if IWHOT was any indication of her work to come at MCA, at least WO was a change of pace!

interesting to hear that she was NOT overly excited about the return to Motwn

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

'Eaten Alive' with its' Michael Jackson title track, Supremes-sounding 'Chain Reaction' and follow-up single 'Experience' would have suited a 'return to Motown' album.

[sup_fan]

I'm actually a huge fan of hers and followed her throughout her career. But i will admit that from a contemporary musical force in the US, she really wasn't a major factor by the late 80s and beyond. Sure people remember her name, she appears on talk shows and in the news. but the vast majority of the american public was not aware of her releases through the 90s. there was a bit of activity within some of the dance clubs, and primarily the gay ones with Take Me Higher and I Will Survive.

but for the most part, when people were looking at current music trends, she was not in their thinking

[marv2]

I'm actually a huge fan of hers and followed her throughout her career. But i will admit that from a contemporary musical force in the US, she really wasn't a major factor by the late 80s and beyond. Sure people remember her name, she appears on talk shows and in the news. but the vast majority of the american public was not aware of her releases through the 90s. there was a bit of activity within some of the dance clubs, and primarily the gay ones with Take Me Higher and I Will Survive.

but for the most part, when people were looking at current music trends, she was not in their thinking

She had a good run though from roughly 1963 -84.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I'm actually a huge fan of hers and followed her throughout her career. But i will admit that from a contemporary musical force in the US, she really wasn't a major factor by the late 80s and beyond. Sure people remember her name, she appears on talk shows and in the news. but the vast majority of the american public was not aware of her releases through the 90s. there was a bit of activity within some of the dance clubs, and primarily the gay ones with Take Me Higher and I Will Survive.

but for the most part, when people were looking at current music trends, she was not in their thinking

True, and I don't think many of us are really saying otherwise. Most popular music follows a zeitgeist and after nearly 30 years and many changes of public taste in music styles the younger audience [[who buy the majority of music) was looking for newer names and styles. That's the same reason why the vast majority of soul artists rooted in the 60's and 70's were off the charts entirely. But Diana, along with a handful of others [[Stevie, MJ, etc) still had major deals and still sold out concerts. AND - presented albums like WO to fans who were happy to hear them!

[TomatoTom123]

But what WDFFIL had going for it , to make it seem like an event , was a ton of hype put behind it from RCA. How else are you going to make its lead single of which the album is titled after , a 50's tune remake --- seem like something we've all been waiting for from Diana Ross.
That's what baffles me about WORKIN' OVERTIME , Diana Ross is finally back on Motown , and this is it?? This is the result? And even if no one thinks this is going to be a home run , you fake it!! Like RCA, you work what you got ! How often do you get to welcome Diana Ross back? This is a one shot opportunity , you gotta milk it.

I can only conclude that the confidence in this work was that low , it really wasn't worth pumping effort into and would likely be an embarrassment. Much ado about nothing.
The collaboration with Nile Rodgers alone should've been a winning angle. Together again at last. But Motown only subtlety references the Chic connection by using the same "diana" logo on the cover . I'm guessing they didn't want to over promise by promoting this renewed association.
There is nothing "Chic" sounding about the LP. Nile does not pick up and play his trademark guitar once. The entire LP's music is just artificial programming , great if you like that sound , but not Chic sounding , and with plenty of current artists of the day pumping that stuff out, ... which of Diana's fans were hoping to hear it from her ? Apparently not many.

BTW it's not a dig at Diana Ross to say WORKIN' OVERTIME was her worst chart performing album, when you release 20 albums and rank them , one of them has to be at the bottom. It's just astonishing to me that it would turn out to be this one , her first Motown album in twenty years.

In my poking around , I was surprised to discover this, and was about to get into it as well. Diana Ross signed with MCA and was flabbergasted that about that time MCA then bought out Motown and wanted to transition her to that label! The way I read it, if Diana had any idea it was headed this way she never would've signed with MCA.
I guess Berry talked her into going along with it, got some perks added to the deal, a partial ownership for her.
So maybe WORKIN' OVERTIME was an MCA project that then wound up being on Motown?? This to me would explain the decision to approach her first Motown album this way, with this kind of content . Because even if Motown was no longer the label it once was , they still had a strong roster of acts from Diana's era, it [[to me) defies logic that you wouldn't tap into that to create a welcome back to the family story line.

One thing that is clear , there was little fanfare centered around Diana's return , so it doesn't seem like a thrill abounded from any angle.

What also still puzzles me is why choose Nile Rodgers and then not really use him . Looks like all the programming of the synths were done by Greg Smith and Nile mostly hung around.

Here're some rather unconvincing comments imo about this project from Diana:

Ollie, I read it in an interview of Diana Ross I stumbled on. I'll look for it, and post a link , hope I can find it again. I don't want to misstate what I recall reading.

RE: The sound on WO. I wasn't following Nile Rodgers by this time , was that the kind of music he was doing I wonder ? Otherwise what made Diana Ross think of him ? Doesn't make sense from a guitarist.

If Diana had an awakening and re-appreciated Motown , why did her return wind up so lackluster ? Shouldn't there have been champagne toasts all-around? If Diana was happy , [[ which you'd expect her say publically regardless) then it must be as marv says , it was Motown then that wasn't thrilled being stuck with her. They may have looked at it that way if MCA said , "here's Diana Ross , you've got no choice ."
And maybe it was simply bad timing. Motown must have been in turmoil , Berry Gordy handing them off to MCA.

Still they were fools to not have capitalized on it. Did Lionel Richie say "no way!". Smokey? Weren't they all needing a little career boost ? They didn't perceive opportunity ?

That album cover should have been of Diana Ross standing in front of Hitsville USA, looking gleeful , arms raised , armpits showing ..."here I am back where I belong!".

Boogie, you are totally right about the album not sounding anything like Chic. It's very new jack swing, which I assume was intentional but doesn't make sense when you think Nile Rodgers was the producer. Why not get a new jack swing producer?!

However, from what I do know about Nile in the 80s, he definitely branched out away from the Chic sound, with the Madonna, INXS, Duran Duran stuff.

I'm revisiting Chic's 1992 album Chic-ism right now, which I remember thinking was entirely and utterly average when I first listened to it, but now I like it a lot!!! It's definitely more Chic than Workin' Overtime, I mean it even has horns!!!!

[Boogiedown]

it looks like new jack swing was a sound meant for a new generation, and not one suited for reviving the careers of struggling middle-aged artists.
Wiki has a list of acts who tapped into it. Not many older artists did , along with Diana Ross, I just see Aretha Franklin and Donna Summer listed , neither of which netted a bounce in their careers by doing so.

[marv2]

it looks like new jack swing was a sound meant for a new generation, and not one suited for reviving the careers of struggling middle-aged artists.
Wiki has a list of acts who tapped into it. Not many older artists did , along with Diana Ross, I just see Aretha Franklin and Donna Summer listed , neither of which netted a bounce in their careers by doing so.

I remember Donna Summer having a hit at the time of this Diana Ross album in 1989.

[Boogiedown]

yes , THIS TIME I KNOW ITS FOR REAL, from the SAW camp.

.... The new jack swing stuff came about later , in '92[[?) on her MISTAKEN IDENTITY album.

[Bluebrock]

Hard to believe it was 30 years ago. I even feel old typing it!!.
30 years on and there are still so many songs i still enjoy from this album.
I don't really think Nile was the best choice of producer and many of the songs are cut in to high a key. Having said that Diana sings with passion and it was nice that she threw something new at us.
I love the albums artwork which made a nice change from the usual glamour shots.
I know i am in the minority, but for me WO was a solid.consistant album with some very catchy numbers. Had it produced a few chart hits and been a tad more pop in production i think it would be viewed far more kindly today by Ross fans at large.

Check your inbox Ollie.

[jobeterob]

I think working overtime was the worst Diana Ross effort since the Banjo Pkaying song in about 1962

Diana had massive international success in the 90s but her American potential of 1995 was similar to that of the Supremes and Temptations in 1975

Diana has recovered awesomely in recent years

[PeaceNHarmony]

Ross rocks! Even a 30 year old album that most fans consider not her best gets 150 comments!

[Ollie9]

If i'm being honest Boogie i can't really rememeber if Diana's return to motown was unheralded or shouted from the mountain tops, at least in the UK.
I agree that MCA must have thought it a natural to reunite Diana with her parent label but would be very surprised if that were one of or a specific reason for the acquisition. Diana's profile was pretty low at the time and her music sales were nothing to get excited about. It would have been a bit of a gamble for whoever signed her.
Just as a point of interest, WO received some very positive reviews in the UK. Not sure about USA.