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  1. #1

    That's how heartaches are made-the marvelettes or baby washington?

    Both versions are so cute,but after very careful consideration i'm gonna go with the[baby washington]original version,which one does it for you?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by arr&bee View Post
    Both versions are so cute,but after very careful consideration i'm gonna go with the[baby washington]original version,which one does it for you?
    It's The Marvelettes' version of the song for me.

  3. #3
    although I love the singer Baby Washington, the Marvelettes version is the BEST to me, the superb production work of Clay McMurray really sells it. I remember reading a short article in Billboard saying how Motown was really going to promote THHAM by the Marvelettes and I was really excited by that fact but alas the push did not happen & it might have been due to Wandas' personal problems at the time, which is really a shame. My fave record by Baby Washington was on the Cotillion label about 1971 "I don't Know".

  4. #4
    I agree with the rest. I'd go with the Marvelettes' version by far. Shame Wanda was battling substance and alcohol issues. She could've helped to make her version a hit.

  5. #5
    I prefer the original by Baby Washington.

  6. #6
    Of course, Being a diehard Wanda Rogers fan, I have to go with the Marvelettes version. One thing I always thought was interesting is that the order of the verses is different. Baby Washington sings the verse that starts with “I know you’re not sincere and you’ll never be” as the second verse where as with Wanda the second verse is the one that starts with “I went ahead and my heart opened the door.” I think from the point of view of the storyline, Wanda’s verse order makes a lot more sense. It always surprises me that in the original the verses were in different order and to me the through line just doesn’t make as much sense that way.

  7. #7
    This song has a haunting quality to it. I love both versions. Baby Washington's original has a dream-like sound. Wanda's smooth vocal is a highlight on the Marvelettes' version. I'm going to have to give the Marvelettes the edge though because of Clay McMurray's fantastic production and Wade Marcus' arrangement.

  8. #8
    Wanda Rogers & The Marvelettes' version gets my vote. It's among the prettiest records Motown ever made.

  9. #9
    Baby Washington all the way.

  10. #10
    Wanda's voice on this song does something to me that Baby Washington's doesn't.

  11. #11
    Wanda Rogers & The Marvelettes' version gets my vote. It's among the prettiest records Motown ever made.
    Wanda's voice on this song does something to me that Baby Washington's doesn't.
    I echo these two comments.

  12. #12
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    I like both of them as much as they can be liked-and for much different reasons. They are 2 different kinds of music. I am more nostalgic for Baby Washington's, but, the super Motown production in The Marvelettes' version is fantastic. Don't make me choose. They are both 100 out of 100 for their genre.

  13. #13
    Robb_k....

    Same with me.

    Same song, but two very different interpretations.

    Baby Washington's version has an authentic soul sound. Her voice has an overtly angry, accusational tone, in speaking directly to her man. She's so sad, and on the point of tears, driven by the almost bewildered childlike feeling of 'how could you DO this to me?'. There is an earthy rawness to her emotion. And I just love being able to hear all those individual instruments in the production.

    Wanda Roger's reading is far more subtle, and draws the listener into her mind and feelings. Hers has far more of a smooth pop sound, but which escapes a saccharine aftertaste simply by the presence of Wanda's natural talents as a vocal stylist.

    Softer, more forgiving and knowingly toned than Baby's. Rueful and introspective, just as bruised, but driven instead by the feeling of 'how could I let you do this to ME?'.

    In place of tears, Wanda's tones are like whispers of honey, as if looking into the middle distance, speaking aloud but only to herself, while under the surface lies a barely disguised and growing anger.

    IMO, one essential difference between the two versions is that Baby has now fallen out of love with her man, because she knows she can't trust him. She blames him for any pain she is feeling.

    In Wanda's version, she is still in love with her man. She knows she can't trust herself with him, and so any pain she feels will be as much her own fault, as his. She feels responsible.

    Both are classic interpretations; both are great recordings.

  14. #14
    @westgrandboulevard, Great perspective and wonderful insight. Wanda expresses the same emotions through song in "I Can't Turn Around" and (also from the Return album) "After All." She was great at that kind of story-song, wistful, yearning and somewhat resigned to her fate.

  15. #15
    Great song but I have to pick Wanda's. Dusty also does a brilliant version.

  16. #16
    Call me a hog, but I love ALL the versions of this song. This is perhaps one of the most eloquent set of lyrics on this topic!

  17. Quote Originally Posted by westgrandboulevard View Post
    Robb_k....

    Same with me.

    Same song, but two very different interpretations.

    Baby Washington's version has an authentic soul sound. Her voice has an overtly angry, accusational tone, in speaking directly to her man. She's so sad, and on the point of tears, driven by the almost bewildered childlike feeling of 'how could you DO this to me?'. There is an earthy rawness to her emotion. And I just love being able to hear all those individual instruments in the production.

    Wanda Roger's reading is far more subtle, and draws the listener into her mind and feelings. Hers has far more of a smooth pop sound, but which escapes a saccharine aftertaste simply by the presence of Wanda's natural talents as a vocal stylist.

    Softer, more forgiving and knowingly toned than Baby's. Rueful and introspective, just as bruised, but driven instead by the feeling of 'how could I let you do this to ME?'.

    In place of tears, Wanda's tones are like whispers of honey, as if looking into the middle distance, speaking aloud but only to herself, while under the surface lies a barely disguised and growing anger.

    IMO, one essential difference between the two versions is that Baby has now fallen out of love with her man, because she knows she can't trust him. She blames him for any pain she is feeling.

    In Wanda's version, she is still in love with her man. She knows she can't trust herself with him, and so any pain she feels will be as much her own fault, as his. She feels responsible.

    Both are classic interpretations; both are great recordings.
    Wow. You wrote that so eloquently and just nailed every last point that could have been nailed- then you nailed a few new things on top of it. I sort of felt like I had to stop and just really soak it in. After reading your observations, there isn't anything I could ever add. I've always loved both, The Marvelettes' version a bit more, but you made me see Wanda's performance in a brand new light.

    You need to be writing professionally.

  18. #18
    WWLFAC....


    Thank you so much for your appreciative words.

    There is a very great wealth of creative talent in evidence here on SDF, including your own.

    We are inspired by the joyous sound of Motown - the voices, the instruments, the rhythms....but interpretation of the lyrics is perhaps not always given full attention.

    Lyrics are effective when they fully resonate with each individual listener.

    The feelings used to create lyrics and melody by the writers, and then presented to us by the 'right' voice, can then be adopted by each listener, and used to enfold around themself, as an emotional cloak.

    Wanda's voice, when singing within her natural range, has a unique, very intimate quality.

    Insidious, and comforting, it swiftly becomes a positive, reassuring voice inside our own head.

    Wanda doesn't need to shout, to exhibit power. She can simply persuade us, the listeners, into feeling ourselves inspired, and empowered by understanding.

    I believe that to be the measure of her performance on 'That's How Heartaches Are Made'....

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    Wow. You wrote that so eloquently and just nailed every last point that could have been nailed- then you nailed a few new things on top of it. I sort of felt like I had to stop and just really soak it in. After reading your observations, there isn't anything I could ever add. I've always loved both, The Marvelettes' version a bit more, but you made me see Wanda's performance in a brand new light.

    You need to be writing professionally.
    Yes! Westgrandboulevard your comments on THHAM are perfect! And Waiting Watching... I, too, had to stop and soak it in. I've always loved Wanda's version but never stopped to think about why. I know westgrand's point is that both versions are great, but now I know why I really, really love Wanda's. I like Baby's version, too, of course. I can totally see her influence on Dusty Springfield, who said Baby was her favorite singer.

  20. #20
    Thank you Lucky2012...

    I ought to say that comparisons between recordings generally result in one or more of the choices being clearly less favoured.

    When it comes to the happy situation when both (or more) of what is being compared are felt to be equally great, as in this thread,...then it's definitely a 'win win', and instinctively made easier when two different interpretations may be made.

    "Always be a first rate version of yourself, and not a second rate version of someone else" - Judy Garland;


  21. #21
    Baby Washington's version is my favorite, and her song "The Time" is my favorite song of hers.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by westgrandboulevard View Post
    Thank you Lucky2012...

    I ought to say that comparisons between recordings generally result in one or more of the choices being clearly less favoured.

    When it comes to the happy situation when both (or more) of what is being compared are felt to be equally great, as in this thread,...then it's definitely a 'win win', and instinctively made easier when two different interpretations may be made.

    "Always be a first rate version of yourself, and not a second rate version of someone else" - Judy Garland;
    I love your comments more and more! I had to grin after reading the Judy Garland quote because I've always loved singing. Motown is the reason why I started playing bass and then went into learning to play every instrument I could as well as writing and recordings songs. Well, it took me the longest time to realize that I had internalized quite a few of Wanda Rogers' vocal signatures and they came out whenever I would sing. The way she uses a certain kind of vibrato.

    I really think Wanda got into my head when I heard "The Day You Take One (You Have To Take The Other)". There are just words this woman sings that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. On the line, "All I wanted was to be treated nice / Didn't want to make a sacrifice", she does something fantastically peculiar at the end of the words "nice" and "sacrifice"; it's a perfect example of the Wanda Vibrato and I ended up copping it. Imagine being asked to sing in a band that does rock music and singing a Who song with a Wanda Rogers-type delivery!

    Oh dear...Wanda, you've made me a second rate version of you!
    Last edited by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance; 08-12-2018 at 08:48 PM.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    I love your comments more and more! I had to grin after reading the Judy Garland quote because I've always loved singing. Motown is the reason why I started playing bass and then went into learning to play every instrument I could as well as writing and recordings songs. Well, it took me the longest time to realize that I had internalized quite a few of Wanda Rogers' vocal signatures and they came out whenever I would sing. The way she uses a certain kind of vibrato.

    I really think Wanda got into my head when I heard "The Day You Take One (You Have To Take The Other)". There are just words this woman sings that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. On the line, "All I wanted was to be treated nice / Didn't want to make a sacrifice", she does something fantastically peculiar at the end of the words "nice" and "sacrifice"; it's a perfect example of the Wanda Vibrato and I ended up copping it. Imagine being asked to sing in a band that does rock music and singing a Who song with a Wanda Rogers-type delivery!

    Oh dear...Wanda, you've made me a second rate version of you!
    LOVE LOVE L-O-V-E that song. It was one of my early introductions to the Marvelettes and I probably played it as much if not more than the A side. I loved the intro and like you just said, some of the lyrics were delivered masterfully. How about the word "discovered" and the phrase "you've got to take the bitter with the sweet."

    It was a true masterpiece that could have been a hit on its own.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by daviddesper View Post
    LOVE LOVE L-O-V-E that song. It was one of my early introductions to the Marvelettes and I probably played it as much if not more than the A side. I loved the intro and like you just said, some of the lyrics were delivered masterfully. How about the word "discovered" and the phrase "you've got to take the bitter with the sweet."

    It was a true masterpiece that could have been a hit on its own.
    Motown was such an amazing place. What other record company had so much on its plate that they could afford to toss off potential A sides as album tracks? I too thought this was such a strong song that it would have been a fantastic single (nearly every song on this album had strong potential, and that's something you don't find often with albums.)

    Yes, the way Wanda sings that word "discovered"... Lord, but nobody could make such random words sound like prize-winning performances in themselves like Wanda. She has a distinctive way of applying a kind of vibrato to certain syllables and trailing off on the last syllable of a word and she does that on this word.

    Then the music- such a unique arrangement- heartbeat bass drum on the verses and then a funky swing beat on the parts leading into the choruses. I nearly broke my fingers trying to learn to play that hypnotic 3-note descending bass line. This is before Motown started going a bit overboard on its arrangements; a nice, tight, lean-but-effective music track. Then on the end, I swear the tempo picks up a bit of speed as everyone just jams the h**l out of the rhythm toward the fade out.

    Now, don't get me started on "I Can't Turn Around"... Wanda's and the Funk Brothers performance on that is enough to bring a grown man to tears.
    Last edited by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance; 08-13-2018 at 01:26 AM.

  25. #25
    Yes, I always loved "The Day You Take One,..." A great, great Smokey composition with many of his best plays on word. Wanda's performance is flawless and it's practically a blues song.

    But I think Wanda at her most plaintive has got to be "Destination: Anywhere," especially when she says, "As I stared through the window of the train, I thought I heard my baby call my name..." I think she does the virbrato you are speaking of on the word "call," when she starts it on one note and then ends it on a higher grace note, extending the one syllable word for the effect.

    An immensely talented, great underrated singer, to be sure.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    Yes, I always loved "The Day You Take One,..." A great, great Smokey composition with many of his best plays on word. Wanda's performance is flawless and it's practically a blues song.

    But I think Wanda at her most plaintive has got to be "Destination: Anywhere," especially when she says, "As I stared through the window of the train, I thought I heard my baby call my name..." I think she does the virbrato you are speaking of on the word "call," when she starts it on one note and then ends it on a higher grace note, extending the one syllable word for the effect.

    An immensely talented, great underrated singer, to be sure.
    One thing I found immensely interesting is something I read a long time ago about the song "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game". It was written by a serious music journalist (and I WISH I could remember where I read it!) and he made some very astute observations about Wanda as a singer. You mentioned Wanda's starting out on one note on the word "call" and ending it on a higher note. This journalist noticed how Wanda had a signature where she'd start a word on one key and then drag it down a half-tone as she ended the note. I didn't really notice that very much until I read those comments. Then I noticed she does that quite a lot. I don't think I've ever heard anyone else use that device, except maybe jazz singers. Whether or not Wanda was doing it consciously, its a very sophisticated mannerism.

    In mentioning "Destination", you remind me of another thing I love about Wanda: she could really throw a song at you with soulful fire and brimstone if she chose to, or she could play it like the sex kitten/Marilyn Monroe type when she wanted to- and she did them both effectively. To me, when I hear her singing "Destination", I get the feeling Ashford and Simpson just let her sing the song as she felt it the second time around. All those "woooos" and vocal gymnastics she does (like singing that jump note you mentioned) are fascinating to hear. Wanda sounded like she was truly relishing the freedom to sing the song as it moved her.

  27. #27
    @WaitingWatching...Although they have little else in common vocally, one of the great Ethel Merman's signatures was that she would carry one syllable from one note and then carry it to (what I call) a grace note, usually at a much higher note. It's a technique that requires a lot of concentration, and if they're not pitch perfect, it probably comes off as kind of a caterwaul. I think both Merman and Young do it beautifully, albeit in very different ways. I think it creates a nice kind of tension, in that you think you've heard the note and then the singer carries it further. I love it!

  28. Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    It's a technique that requires a lot of concentration, and if they're not pitch perfect, it probably comes off as kind of a caterwaul. I think both Merman and Young do it beautifully, albeit in very different ways. I think it creates a nice kind of tension, in that you think you've heard the note and then the singer carries it further. I love it!
    I love that you mentioned Ethel Merman to illustrate your point. I do hear what you're referring to when Wanda sings the word "call" and to learn that this is something that a singer of Ethel's stature does makes it all the more wonderful. True, they don't sing the same kind of music, but technique is technique and I think it just increases my appreciation for Wanda's strengths as a singer.

  29. #29
    I agree with all the above observations, and also feel it's the formation of Wanda's extended, nasal drawl vowel sounds, cutting through the lyrics, which make her voice so distinctive and effective.

    Phonetically translated....

    "Ooooo,

    Theyyy toohhllld meee iiihhh waaas suuuch a foool tooo lluhhhvve youuu,

    Theyyy sayyyy that youu'rrre the kaihhhhnd whooo'd nehhh-verrr beee truuue"...."


  30. #30
    I'm right with you, arr&bee. I'm a huge fan of THE MARVELETTES, and I love their rendition of this wonderful song. But when it comes to choosing, it's clearly BABY WASHINGTON's stellar recording for me. The simplicity of its production combined with the immediacy and power of her sensational voice and delivery all add to what's so beautiful and great about this tune. And her version strangely captures the time of when it was released and yet also makes it seem timeless each time I hear it. No wonder there are a number of versions to listen to now. THE MARVELETTES certainly do the song proud--but BABY WASHINGTON does it for me like no one else has been able to.

  31. #31
    Bette Midler and Dusty Springfield also recorded this song. I have the 4 of them back to back in a playlist. I love each of them and wouldn’t be able to choose because each listen I hear something interesting and different, whether it’s the phrasing ( usually Bette) or the music.

  32. #32
    I've never heard either Dusty's or Midler's versions. Kind of surprised I haven't heard Dusty's, because I have almost everything of hers. I'll have to find it. The odd thing, for me, about Dusty is that sometimes I think she'll do great with a song but then she interprets it in a really odd way. I think she was a great singer, but a very idiosyncratic one. She had her own way and it wasn't always what you expected from her.

    I must also add...isn't it nice to have a few threads about the Marvelettes and other topics without being inundated with the Diane vs. Mary stuff? I love the new organization of the SDF Motown threads.

  33. #33
    Both versions are great, but my favorite is the Marvelettes. As a child my only knowledge of the Marvelettes was "Postman", "Beechwood" and "Bill". As a teen I was introduced to their broader discography via the Deliver the Singles set and "That's How Heartaches Are Made" and the other post Gladys cuts quickly became favs of mine. "Heartaches" takes me back to being a teenager as much as the 90s r&b and rap that I was listening to at the time. When I listen to "Heartaches" I get real nostalgic. I didn't hear Baby Washington's version until I was in my 20s and I liked it very much, but nothing takes the place of the Marvelettes' version for me.

  34. #34
    And while we're talking about the great[wanda rodgers]is there a cooler opening verse than..a closet full of glad rags all tucked away in a pad that's swank[you're the one-1966]!!

  35. #35
    How about "Here I Am Baby" where she is a sex kitten one moment but a blues wailer the next?

  36. #36
    Arr&bee and David: Both great records! I love 'em both! And, as Kenny mentioned earlier, "I Can't Turn Around". Also gotta add "The Day You Take One (You Have To Take The Other)" and "When I Need(ed) You". Wanda never sounded more sultry than in her 1966-68 period. Pure Motown magic!

  37. #37
    @Phillies/Motown Gary, was wondering when you were gonna weigh in, buddy!

  38. #38
    Speaking of other versions, the late, great Loleatta Holloway also cut a version in 1976 for her debut album on Gold Mind/Salsoul.

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by westgrandboulevard View Post

    … comparisons between recordings generally result in one or more of the choices being clearly less favoured.

    When it comes to the happy situation when both (or more) of what is being compared are felt to be equally great, as in this thread,...then it's definitely a 'win win', and instinctively made easier when two different interpretations may be made.

    "Always be a first rate version of yourself, and not a second rate version of someone else" - Judy Garland;

    Same goes for comparison of singers. I first appreciated Gladys more than Wanda. I loved Gladys on the hits, Postman, Playboy, Beechwood, Too Many Fish. The Playboy album is still fun and a joy (Mix It Up, I'm Hooked, I've Gotta Cry). I found Wanda's early falsettos (So Long Baby, Locking Up) distracting. But of course Forever is a classic song and performance.
    Now I appreciate and love both Gladys and Wanda. It's hard to imagine anyone else but Wanda on Hunter, THHAM, I Can't Turn Around, The Day You Take One, etc. A writer on girl groups of the 60's cited the Marvelettes, specifically "how deliciously bitchy [Wanda] was on Don't Mess With Bill."
    The Marvelettes were very fortunate that both lead singers were allowed to shine. The fans are very fortunate, too.

  40. #40
    Let's not overlook the mystical[tonight was made for love]from the[pink]album!

  41. #41
    I love "Here I Am Baby" and "Destination Anywhere". Wanda had the goods.

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by smallworld View Post
    Speaking of other versions, the late, great Loleatta Holloway also cut a version in 1976 for her debut album on Gold Mind/Salsoul.
    Love it! Had never heard this one before. Thanks for posting!

  43. #43
    Randy Crawford has a really nice version and Patti and the Bluebelles do a nice live version also.

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by arr&bee View Post
    Let's not overlook the mystical[tonight was made for love]from the[pink]album!
    One of my favorites!

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    @Phillies/Motown Gary, was wondering when you were gonna weigh in, buddy!
    Hey, Kenny! I chimed in way back. Hard not to when the subject at hand is Wanda Rogers & The Marvelettes who, IMO (and yours, too!), were among Motown's finest. I'll never forget Nick Ashford's comment regarding Wanda: "I just loved that girl's voice." That alone says a lot!

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