Reflections Expanded Edition

[Ollie9]

Well, it’s worth noting that two of Joan’s other children deny Christina Crawford’s tales of child abuse.
https://www.closerweekly.com/posts/j...e-and-cruelty/

“However, Joan’s younger twin daughters, Casey’s mother Cathy and his Aunt Cindy, always insisted that the depiction of Joan by Christina was a gross exaggeration if not an outright lie. “My mother and my Aunt Cindy, to their dying day, felt nothing but love for their mother,” Casey says in Closer‘s latest issue, on newsstands now. “They never experienced any abuse. It was a loving and caring household, and Joan was always very supportive of them.”:

Apparently the abuse had stopped by the time of the twins. Perhaps Joan had worked it out of her system by then. Who really knows?.
Joan Crawford was never my mother, but i still break out into a sweat whenever i see a wire coat hanger which is never good. Loved her in Mildred Pierce and my fave Humoresque.
I’m sure Diana has nothing to worry about.

[after you]

This page has garnered so much attention count the record company she this or do they even know about the site , so far nothing has been expanded or Willoughby

[daviddh]

Imo..if we don't get this for Diana's 80th..
It will never happen..

[jobeterob]

This page has garnered so much attention count the record company she this or do they even know about the site , so far nothing has been expanded or Willoughby

The only thing is that most of it has nothing to do with the Expanded Edition

[thanxal]

The only thing is that most of it has nothing to do with the Expanded Edition

LOL. But isn't that the case with about every thread on this here forum?

I'm glad we dont' have topic police here. Another site I frequent has them and its very annoying and you end up arguing with the moderators that your post was relevant.

[jobeterob]

LOL. But isn't that the case with about every thread on this here forum?

I'm glad we dont' have topic police here. Another site I frequent has them and its very annoying and you end up arguing with the moderators that your post was relevant.

Yes we stray quite a bit.

But we all get along quite well - things are “enormously calm” compared to the TNT days.

Perhaps a lot of old farts that don’t get too cranked up about anything anymore.

[Ollie9]

Perhaps a lot of old farts that don’t get too cranked up about anything anymore.

Speak for yourself dear.

[RanRan79]

Yes I totally agree on not measuring Diana on her kids only.

I actually was not making my comments with respect to Diana Ross; I was making them based on my own life and I’m not saying that being an arrogant dickhead. I had a pretty decent career and did fairly well - most of you know what I worked at.

But if I’d fucked up raising my kids, I would have been unbearably disappointed. But definitely it’s only one aspect of a life.

I guess how I feel causes me to always wonder why people as professionally successful as Gladys and Aretha so often complained about so many people and so many things.

But definitely children are only one factor in a life and sometimes things go wrong for the best of parents; I had several clients who had a child that became a victim of the opioid crisis and Mom and Dad were the best of people.

All this is only peripheral to Diana Ross but perhaps is about Reflections.

I haven't heard Aretha's children say one bad word about her.

[RanRan79]

Well, it’s worth noting that two of Joan’s other children deny Christina Crawford’s tales of child abuse.

They would not be the first siblings to deny the abuse of a parent. Sometimes parents aren't abusive to all the children, leading some siblings to completely ignore the abuse of other siblings, or view it in a different light. I don't know if Joan was what she was accused of being or not, but the claims by Christina Crawford can't be invalidated because the others think it was an "exaggeration".

[ejluther]

They would not be the first siblings to deny the abuse of a parent. Sometimes parents aren't abusive to all the children, leading some siblings to completely ignore the abuse of other siblings, or view it in a different light. I don't know if Joan was what she was accused of being or not, but the claims by Christina Crawford can't be invalidated because the others think it was an "exaggeration".

Point taken but this doesn’t help to validate her claims, either - it’s simply more to consider. I have no idea what really happened, either, but I think it’s an easy mistake to always believe accusers over those accused so I, for myself, I try to be as even-handed as possible. Having said that, I wouldn’t want to meet a pissed off Joan Crawford in a dark alley!

[RanRan79]

Point taken but this doesn’t help to validate her claims, either - it’s simply more to consider. I have no idea what really happened, either, but I think it’s an easy mistake to always believe accusers over those accused so I, for myself, I try to be as even-handed as possible. Having said that, I wouldn’t want to meet a pissed off Joan Crawford in a dark alley!

Agreed.

I don't know much about Joan, but I have a feeling she wasn't one to tangle with.

[Starguard4]

I wouldn’t want to meet a pissed off Joan Crawford in a dark alley!

You'd be OK, if you got Bette Davis with you LOL

[after you]

Since Diana Ross 80th birthday is coming up are we going to get a surprise album release?

[thanxal]

Since Diana Ross 80th birthday is coming up are we going to get a surprise album release?

Let’s hope so. Maybe a lavish CD set from a third party ala the Christmas set. Or a vinyl set like the ones we saw a few year back [[Paris, Supreme Rarities).

[daviddh]

Since Diana Ross 80th birthday is coming up are we going to get a surprise album release?

fingers crossed . it would be the right thing to do but universal has been indifferent to the expanded editions.
to me lets celebrate Dianas B Day with Reflections.,march release , love child summer release . then Cream of the crop dec/.
imo

[sup_fan]

fingers crossed . it would be the right thing to do but universal has been indifferent to the expanded editions.
to me lets celebrate Dianas B Day with Reflections.,march release , love child summer release . then Cream of the crop dec/.
imo

I wonder how much additional material there is, post-Reflections. The girls did some recordings through winter and spring 68. but then they were really focusing on the duet material and TCB, plus Funny Girl. that takes us through August. then they did a lot of recordings in the fall but most of that material [[that we know of) made it onto the LC, Sunshine and Cream albums. then by mid 69, the group was really not doing much more recording as they were really just trying to lift Diana out.

the L&F set that we got includes a lot of the non-released material. again, that we know of. if there were real treasures to be had, i would think they would have been on L&F already.

of course there could be mono versions of the albums. single/45 mixes of songs [[i believe i heard there is a single edit of Shadow of Society) and of course alt vocals/versions.

I believe most of the duets material is on the Joined Together release. probably highly unlikely we'll get expanded dvd or cd material on TCB or GIT.

[jobeterob]

Congratulations to the thread - 98000 views!

RTL and the Andantes replacing Supremes can’t compete

[floyjoy678]

Congratulations to the thread - 98000 views!

RTL and the Andantes replacing Supremes can’t compete

Hey Rob, speaking of Andantes did you happen to take a look at the thread Ran created which showed that Florence and Mary were on like 90% of their songs?

[jobeterob]

Hey Rob, speaking of Andantes did you happen to take a look at the thread Ran created which showed that Florence and Mary were on like 90% of their songs?

I probably glanced at it.

I feel like TJ Lubinsky who said he worked with Mary and had interactions with Mary and Louvain and he saw no evidence of any issue between them

The songs are the songs; the Andantes and others are on a lot of songs and probably the Supremes including Diana didn’t even know. I remember I was surprised and kind of didn’t believe it but that was a decade or more ago. I don’t really consider it much anymore. But I appreciate newer fans may be feeling like I did a long time ago.

Adding additional singers probably reached its peak on the Jimmy Webb album or maybe Merry Christmas.

If you go find T J’s post - and he did all those PBS specials - it was a good one.

Too much is made of these minor issues.

It’s damaged the Supremes legacy. It is also no different than a member of the Wrecking Crew playing bass on the first Doors album - before they had a bass player. It happened all the time.

Why should it matter so much more with the Supremes? Is it because they and Diana had so many big hits?

[sup_fan]

I probably glanced at it.

I feel like TJ Lubinsky who said he worked with Mary and had interactions with Mary and Louvain and he saw no evidence of any issue between them

The songs are the songs; the Andantes and others are on a lot of songs and probably the Supremes including Diana didn’t even know. I remember I was surprised and kind of didn’t believe it but that was a decade or more ago. I don’t really consider it much anymore. But I appreciate newer fans may be feeling like I did a long time ago.

Adding additional singers probably reached its peak on the Jimmy Webb album or maybe Merry Christmas.

If you go find T J’s post - and he did all those PBS specials - it was a good one.

Too much is made of these minor issues.

It’s damaged the Supremes legacy. It is also no different than a member of the Wrecking Crew playing bass on the first Doors album - before they had a bass player. It happened all the time.

Why should it matter so much more with the Supremes? Is it because they and Diana had so many big hits?

my guess is that the industry had already pretty much written off the Supremes as "just" another girl group. a very successful one, yes. but they weren't "artists" like the industry viewed jim morrison or any of the beatles or stevie or whomever else. the group has always been marginalized as simply a product of motowns. as if they had 0 contribution to their success. they didn't write the own material or produce it. and then layering in the studio singers did a lot of the backing vocals only serves to further undermine the group's credibility with historians.

of course what they're overlooking is all of the history and important contributions all of us die hard fans recognize.

[RanRan79]

Too much is made of these minor issues.

But it's not a minor issue, and frankly you bring it up quite often. I realize it's your way of taking digs at the Supremes not named Diana, and that's fine, but at least be honest about it. That post TJ made flat out claimed that the Andantes "were on the majority of the Supremes record from "SITNOL" forward", which is factually inaccurate, and then you backed up that claim with your anecdote about what somebody told you regarding the backing vocals. You told me to do my research. I detailed my research. You glanced at it. I would've thought you'd have given me a grade on the thesis after my research.

Flo and Mary's contribution to the Supremes is firmly intact regarding what we saw: those three beautiful ladies together, on stage, on television, poised, glammed up, something to behold. And their live singing was fantastic, their chemistry with one another, those voices finding their places together...it all made for a history making image. But when someone makes the claim that the records were all basically Diana Ross solo recordings and Flo and Mary not being involved is a "minor issue", it's a knock on their legacy. The Supremes were a group and should be respected for the work they put into those records. Those records are a huge part of the group's legacy, and thus a huge part of the legacies of Florence and Mary.

[thanxal]

congratulations to the thread - 98000 views!

Rtl and the andantes replacing supremes can’t compete

lolololol!!!!

[zani57]

my guess is that the industry had already pretty much written off the Supremes as "just" another girl group. a very successful one, yes.

Not sure if this belongs here, but will post it here anyway. sup_fan I agree with you that -- unfortunately -- some people write off The Supremes as "just" another girl group. The other night on "Jeopardy" in a music category the clue said something like "in the 1970s two groups had a hit with songs titled "Best of My Love." One was sung by The Emotions and the second by this other group." And the contestant guessed "Who are The Supremes?" WRONG. Obviously, The Eagles.
This started out as a thread about an Expanded Edition of "Reflections" and it sounds as if we may never see an expanded edition [[not in my lifetime anyway). I wish these threads wouldn't unravel into pettiness. But as an ex- of mine used to say, "If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride."

[sup_fan]

Not sure if this belongs here, but will post it here anyway. sup_fan I agree with you that -- unfortunately -- some people write off The Supremes as "just" another girl group. The other night on "Jeopardy" in a music category the clue said something like "in the 1970s two groups had a hit with songs titled "Best of My Love." One was sung by The Emotions and the second by this other group." And the contestant guessed "Who are The Supremes?" WRONG. Obviously, The Eagles.
This started out as a thread about an Expanded Edition of "Reflections" and it sounds as if we may never see an expanded edition [[not in my lifetime anyway). I wish these threads wouldn't unravel into pettiness. But as an ex- of mine used to say, "If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride."

actually i'd take that Jeopardy instance as a sign that people HAVEN'T forgotten the group. yes they might not know all of the music. but when this average person hears a trio of women singing, he or she thought The Supremes.

the general public seems to have at least retained knowledge of the concept of 3 beautiful and talented women, fronted by a dynamic lead singer, as the epitome of a girl group. the supremes are at least sort of forever associated with this and that's why you get comparisons with each successive generation - En Vogue was compared to the sups, TLC, Destiny's child, etc.

it's the industry that seems to dismiss them. the public just seems to dismiss the 70s era of the group and focuses mostly in Diana's role rather than the group as a whole and each member's contributions.

[lucky2012]

actually i'd take that Jeopardy instance as a sign that people HAVEN'T forgotten the group. yes they might not know all of the music. but when this average person hears a trio of women singing, he or she thought The Supremes.

the general public seems to have at least retained knowledge of the concept of 3 beautiful and talented women, fronted by a dynamic lead singer, as the epitome of a girl group. the supremes are at least sort of forever associated with this and that's why you get comparisons with each successive generation - En Vogue was compared to the sups, TLC, Destiny's child, etc.

it's the industry that seems to dismiss them. the public just seems to dismiss the 70s era of the group and focuses mostly in Diana's role rather than the group as a whole and each member's contributions.

I concur, sup. [It seems that I'm being very agreeable to your thoughts this morning.]
Judging from Jeopardy, the general public has not forgotten the Supremes. Especially for baby boomers [admittedly a shrinking group ] they are not just another girl group but rather are the quintessential girl group. Beyonce in Destiny's Child was the most recent dynamic lead singer of a girl group who became a megastar on her own.

Also judging from Jeopardy, the general public haven't forgotten Diana Ross. Humorously or not so humorously, Jeopardy contestants last year mistakenly identified Ross as the 95-year-old singer with a new album, when it was Tony Bennett.

[Ollie9]

It would appear Jeopardy is a litmus test for the thoughts and feelings of an entire nation.

[RanRan79]

\I wish these threads wouldn't unravel into pettiness. But as an ex- of mine used to say, "If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride."

I wish Flo and Mary's legacies weren't constantly being diminished. But yeah, if wishes were horses...

[sup_fan]

I wish Flo and Mary's legacies weren't constantly being diminished. But yeah, if wishes were horses...

unfortunately that's probably something that'll never change. the public generally recognized the members of the supremes as the Superstar, the one who died broke and then the backup singer.

part of that was due to the active role of motown building DR up as the star of the century and how she was THE focal point of the group. and part of it is due to DR actually being one of the biggest stars of the century. she lived up to and spectacularly exceeded that expectation. so it just makes it that much harder for people to see beyond her

[RanRan79]

unfortunately that's probably something that'll never change. the public generally recognized the members of the supremes as the Superstar, the one who died broke and then the backup singer.

part of that was due to the active role of motown building DR up as the star of the century and how she was THE focal point of the group. and part of it is due to DR actually being one of the biggest stars of the century. she lived up to and spectacularly exceeded that expectation. so it just makes it that much harder for people to see beyond her

I was referring to claims that Flo and Mary aren't on their own songs. That takes away from their legacy, which is primarily built on those great hit singles.

[daviddh]

I would love a Kevin Reeves mix on forever came today.

[Circa 1824]

I wish Flo and Mary's legacies weren't constantly being diminished. But yeah, if wishes were horses...

In my eyes, Mary, Flo,and Cindy were always second-best to Ross. However, Ross was at her peak with the girls behind her. Maybe Diana thought she had to work harder to be the center of attention, and thus pushed herself in ways she stopped doing after she left the group.

[daviddh]

I never saw her as better originally
Although she certainly has proven herself to be a star.
I have always had the opinion , if you have three kids, send one to college but not the other two
Naturally one will florish, while the other two may fall behind and be resentful.

[sup_fan]

I never saw her as better originally
Although she certainly has proven herself to be a star.
I have always had the opinion , if you have three kids, send one to college but not the other two
Naturally one will florish, while the other two may fall behind and be resentful.

there are a lot of different ways to define "better"

many people say mary was the "better looking" supreme - the one that was most traditionally beautiful. Some of course say Flo had a "better" voice - it was more traditionally r&b, big and full and soulful

IMO Diana was better at "it." so hard to describe. your eye just naturally seems to go to her in the group shots on tv. of course later they were purposely choreographing things and designing camera angles specifically for this. but early on there's just something magnetic about her. it isn't just that she moved faster or smiled bigger. anyone could do that. it was some sort of overall quality. there was this deep seated eagerness to perform and entertain. M and F had it too, much more so than most other singers. but diana just had more of it.

We've also talked about how, even early on, Diana had an amazing ability to interpret lyrics and convey a message of a song. producers have talked about how this wasn't something she necessarily practiced and trained on. it was natural. some sort of transcendental thing or possession or something. whatever the song - an HDH pop tune, an MOR standard, a showtune, whatever - she would somehow just embody that song. and same on stage.

that's the initial seed of what made Diana Ross different. and then yes - lots of practice and training and work took that seed and made it grow.

[woodward]

See the following from another posting on the MF about an upcoming Cherryred release.

The Miracles-Four Classic Albums On 2CDs [4/19/2024-Cherry Red UK]
Info from Cherry Red UK-

Smokey Robinson & The Miracles: What Love Has Joined Together/A Pocket Full of Miracles/One Dozen Roses/Flying High Together, 2CD

Definitive 2CD remastered edition from SoulMusic Records/The Second Disc comprising four rare 1970-1972 albums and bonus tracks from Motown legends Smokey Robinson And The Miracles!
Two bonus tracks, ‘[You’ve Got Me] Looking Through the Eyes of Love’ and ‘Paper People’ also make their CD debut.


QUESTION: Why can't Cherryred release the Reflections Expanded Edition like they did the Miracles in another posting on the Motown Forum?

I wish someone would explain to me why Cherryred cannot perform a miracle and get this expanded Edition of the Supremes released!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jobeterob]

See the following from another posting on the MF about an upcoming Cherryred release.

The Miracles-Four Classic Albums On 2CDs [4/19/2024-Cherry Red UK]
Info from Cherry Red UK-

Smokey Robinson & The Miracles: What Love Has Joined Together/A Pocket Full of Miracles/One Dozen Roses/Flying High Together, 2CD

Definitive 2CD remastered edition from SoulMusic Records/The Second Disc comprising four rare 1970-1972 albums and bonus tracks from Motown legends Smokey Robinson And The Miracles!
Two bonus tracks, ‘[You’ve Got Me] Looking Through the Eyes of Love’ and ‘Paper People’ also make their CD debut.


QUESTION: Why can't Cherryred release the Reflections Expanded Edition like they did the Miracles in another posting on the Motown Forum?

I wish someone would explain to me why Cherryred cannot perform a miracle and get this expanded Edition of the Supremes released!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would venture a guess that a Supremes album is more valuable than a Miracles album

So they won’t give it away but they also won’t release it.

[Starguard4]

So they won’t give it away but they also won’t release it.

With that sort of attitude, I'm surprised "THEY" don't get more flack from the likes of you, me and everyone else here @ SDF. "THEY" seem to get off lightly.

[jobeterob]

With that sort of attitude, I'm surprised "THEY" don't get more flack from the likes of you, me and everyone else here @ SDF. "THEY" seem to get off lightly.

I think they get a lot of flack but the guys with the keys to the kingdom don’t value Motown like Andy and George and the fans on SD

[Starguard4]

...the guys with the keys to the kingdom...

Well, obviously they ain't gettin' enough of it [[the flack), as nothing changes. How long can this go on?? It really seems like forever !!

[daviddh]

very disappointing . thought with DR b day this spring we would finally be treated to the long over do Ross 78 or Reflections.
i stopped holding my breath a while back. thankfully. maybe but i just don't get it.
they seem to hold Ross related items for ransom.

[Circa 1824]

very disappointing . thought with DR b day this spring we would finally be treated to the long over do Ross 78 or Reflections.
i stopped holding my breath a while back. thankfully. maybe but i just don't get it.
they seem to hold Ross related items for ransom.

Bringing joy to a few older men is not a motivation. If there was a penny to be made, it would be done.

[jobeterob]

Bringing joy to a few older men is not a motivation. If there was a penny to be made, it would be done.

I think there’s a bit more to it.

While I don’t think there’s a lot of money to be made, there are plenty of other releases of far less well known performers that could never touch the sales of Ross and the Supremes

It seems to me they also will not allow anyone else to release any of this. They won’t proceed themselves but they won’t license it or lease it to anyone else even for a price

Could they be waiting for Diana to move on to the afterlife?

[Ollie9]

Could they be waiting for Diana to move on to the afterlife?

What a macabre thought but a possibility. Sales are very often known to take off upon a performers demise.

[after you]

Silence is golden regarding this very important album

[marybrewster]

Silence is golden regarding this very important album

Sad, isn't it?

First album without Florence - First album credited as DRATS - Last album with HDH

[RanRan79]

First album without Florence in the group, but she's on two cuts anyway. I'm surprised Flo isn't on any of the Love Child cuts, since she also made it onto Sunshine and Cream. Lol

[sup_fan]

First album without Florence in the group, but she's on two cuts anyway. I'm surprised Flo isn't on any of the Love Child cuts, since she also made it onto Sunshine and Cream. Lol

here's the backup singers i have for each tune. some of these i'm making my best guest:

Reflections - Mary and Marlene
I'm gonna make it - Mary and Cindy
Forever came today - As
I can't make it alone - As
In and out of love - As although M and F are WAY back in the mix, covered up by As
Bah - M and Cindy

What the world needs - M and F
Up up and away - As
Love makes me do - As
then - M and C
Misery - M and Marlene
Ode to BJ - no backing vocals

[daviddh]

Well. Marys B day just passed and Diana's is about two weeks away and nothing from universal..
Kinda what I expected.

[floyjoy678]

here's the backup singers i have for each tune. some of these i'm making my best guest:

Reflections - Mary and Marlene
I'm gonna make it - Mary and Cindy
Forever came today - As
I can't make it alone - As
In and out of love - As although M and F are WAY back in the mix, covered up by As
Bah - M and Cindy

What the world needs - M and F
Up up and away - As
Love makes me do - As
then - M and C
Misery - M and Marlene
Ode to BJ - no backing vocals

Are Mary and Flo's vocals still on In And Out Of Love? Sounds like just the Andantes to me.

[sup_fan]

Are Mary and Flo's vocals still on In And Out Of Love? Sounds like just the Andantes to me.

my understanding is that they are on the record. their vocals were not "wiped" but they're just so far back in the mix and/or buried by the As that they just are not audible.

and the reason i'm saying this is that when the backing vocals WERE wiped [[and there are a few instances for the sups where they are), they've called that out.

[marybrewster]

Well. Marys B day just passed and Diana's is about two weeks away and nothing from universal..
Kinda what I expected.

This thread was started 6 years ago.

There's only one event that makes REFLECTIONS EXPANDED a possibility, and it ain't no birthday party.