Autopsy: The Last Hours of Florence Ballard on REELZ Channel-Sun 7/29/08 9PM

[midnightman]

A sober and on her game Flo return could've helped the Supremes survive the '70s. But I think Flo really wanted to focus on a solo career from that point on. Doubt Mary would've wanted her back so I don't know how true that story is.

[sup_fan]

when Mary reformed the group with scherrie and cindy, i believe motown was not in favor of the group continuing at all. more than likely, once Jean and Lynda left, i think Berry and team figured the group was done and disbanded. but mary kept pushing and brought the other two in. They sort of floated in limbo as motown didn't really want to do anything with them but finally gave in.

My theory is that berry felt a little sentimental about things and gave the green light to the MSC grouping and recordings. He had certainly dropped other artists before and given the track record of the later supremes records with Jean plus his lack of interest in artistically developing Mary, he could have just said No.

had mary proposed bringing flo back, it definitely would have been a No. Berry wanted nothing to do with Flo. from his perspective, she'd caused huge amounts of turmoil while in the group and had also brought legal action against he and motown.

Mary had to focus on saving herself - not like she had many other options available to her in late 73. trying to be flo's savoir would have been suicide for herself

[midnightman]

And Flo wasn't interested at the end anyway.

[marybrewster]

A Mary, Flo, and Cindy grouping would have NEVER worked. Who would have sung lead? Mary? I doubt Flo would have been a "backup" for her.

So that leaves Mary, Scherrie, and Flo? I can't see that either.

Mary wanted control of the group after Jean and Lynda left, and there's no way she'd have been able to be Flo's "boss".

[midnightman]

Flo would've had to be pulled apart from Mary had that happened... would've destroyed their friendship for good. :/

[PeaceNHarmony]

when Mary reformed the group with scherrie and cindy, i believe motown was not in favor of the group continuing at all. more than likely, once Jean and Lynda left, i think Berry and team figured the group was done and disbanded. but mary kept pushing and brought the other two in. They sort of floated in limbo as motown didn't really want to do anything with them but finally gave in.

My theory is that berry felt a little sentimental about things and gave the green light to the MSC grouping and recordings. He had certainly dropped other artists before and given the track record of the later supremes records with Jean plus his lack of interest in artistically developing Mary, he could have just said No.

had mary proposed bringing flo back, it definitely would have been a No. Berry wanted nothing to do with Flo. from his perspective, she'd caused huge amounts of turmoil while in the group and had also brought legal action against he and motown.

Mary had to focus on saving herself - not like she had many other options available to her in late 73. trying to be flo's savoir would have been suicide for herself

What I find most interesting about your post is the last sentence. Several posters here will agree that Wilson had to 'focus on saving herself' yet excoriate Diana for having done exactly the same things 3 years earlier! They will, undoubtedly, claim the circumstances ... 'different' ...

[sup_fan]

the diana situation is one where you had 3 equal partners at the beginning but then one emerges and overshadows the others. and the group dynamics changed from a group to a solo star with 2 backups. clearly by 68, 69 M and C were not being actively involved in the strategic planning or direction of the group

Supposedly in 70 with Jean, it did return to 3 equal partners. at least according to mary's side of the story. from what i've heard it was NOT equal in Jean's eyes. she was singing nearly all of the leads, was also singing much of the backgrounds. she was leading the majority of the live act too. however she was not being paid what M and C where [[Jean was salaried for the first 12 - 18 months, not sure exactly) and she didn't really have much say in the live act. she was upset that her songs were being cut or squeezed into medleys, they were reverting back to much of the DRATS songbook. Not sure if M helped mastermind this with Gil and motown or who was really responsible. but clearly the 3 women were not making these decisions

by the time Scherrie joined, mary was definitely running the show. Just because she wasn't the lead singer doesn't mean she couldn't/shouldn't "lead" the group. There have been discussions on here over the years about decisions for the group regarding music for the live shows, gowns, etc. it's been pretty clear that those were not group decisions but mary's. It's also been said that some promises were made to Scherrie and Susaye about potentially writing and producing the group.

so from 73 onwards, it was pretty well established that Mary would be leading the direction and management of the group. so i don't see it as being in conflict with what diana did. very different situation

but i also don't believe mary is a good group manager or had the appropriate vision for what the group should be. between her lack of quality decision making for the group and pedro's cluster-f, they were doomed. one of the biggest missteps was that Mary didn't have much self-awareness as to what genre of music she excels at. and how to play that up. the odds of her voice being a "major pop star" is extremely low and after all her years in the industry, she should have realized that. there certainly could have been a niche for her a la Roberta Flack. she would have been amazing in those types of songs. but she should have had the sense to realize that her best chance would have been to remain within the framework of the established Supremes

[midnightman]

Mary was ill-equipped to lead the group, unlike Flo in the very early years and Diana much later. Those two were the geniuses who IMHO held the group to that high standard [[and when that splintered, so did the group itself). Mary on the other hand didn't know which direction to take the group after Jean left in 1973. Up until then, Motown was still pretty much in control over what the Supremes did and it did work some wonders for a while: they were still able to get a few top 20/40 hits, had two top tens but it wasn't like it was when they ruled as DMF or even as DMC [[mainly the era of Diana).

This is not to say Mary was at fault for the group disintegrating but when you hire your abusive husband to overlook the group, that's not a good sign at all.

[Jimi LaLumia]

they were not three equal partners from the beginning..
in the beginning there were actually four..
and Ross didn't 'emerge',she sang lead on most every single 'no hits Supremes' record..
I don't recall hearing of any complaints about it at that time..
and when the H/D/H-Ross 'fusion' brought on the big hits,
it was that Ross success sound that bought all of them their cars,
their furs, their homes..not heard of any complaints about any of that either;
Ross was the lead singer when they had nothing, and her leads brought them
everything..until the day came when the thought occurred that 'anybody
and everybody' could be Diana Ross if they just slept around...
well, if THAT were the case...lol..never mind.. I won't go there..
but just quite down already with the nonsense

[sup_fan]

they were not three equal partners from the beginning..
in the beginning there were actually four..
and Ross didn't 'emerge',she sang lead on most every single 'no hits Supremes' record..
I don't recall hearing of any complaints about it at that time..
and when the H/D/H-Ross 'fusion' brought on the big hits,
it was that Ross success sound that bought all of them their cars,
their furs, their homes..not heard of any complaints about any of that either;
Ross was the lead singer when they had nothing, and her leads brought them
everything..until the day came when the thought occurred that 'anybody
and everybody' could be Diana Ross if they just slept around...
well, if THAT were the case...lol..never mind.. I won't go there..
but just quite down already with the nonsense

all very good points. i was summarizing 9 years of group history into a couple sentences. you're right that the fusion of Supremes and HDH was magic. and much of the magic on record was primarily between Diana and HDH. M and F certainly contributed to the recorded sound but their real impact came in the live performances of the music. on stage you had three enchanting and engaging personalities. it's a shame they didn't let this shine through a bit more on record.

But by 65, things were really starting to be built around Diana.

[sup_fan]

Mary was ill-equipped to lead the group, unlike Flo in the very early years and Diana much later. Those two were the geniuses who IMHO held the group to that high standard [[and when that splintered, so did the group itself). Mary on the other hand didn't know which direction to take the group after Jean left in 1973. Up until then, Motown was still pretty much in control over what the Supremes did and it did work some wonders for a while: they were still able to get a few top 20/40 hits, had two top tens but it wasn't like it was when they ruled as DMF or even as DMC [[mainly the era of Diana).

This is not to say Mary was at fault for the group disintegrating but when you hire your abusive husband to overlook the group, that's not a good sign at all.

makes one wonder 1000 "what ifs"

some of mary's decisions, i'm guessing, are due to the struggle. when you're drowning, you don't always have the time or ability to sit thoughtfully and explore options.

the early years with JMC were wonderful. they re-established themselves and created a new sound. as that began to wane by mid 71/early 72 is where things begin to unravel. Frankly i thought the Floy Joy set worked very well as an evolution of their sound and style. they'd spent 2 years working with frank and, while chart positions didn't always support it, they made a wonderful artistic statement. Sort of a shame they didn't continue to work with Smokey and evolve that sound.

and we all know about the Jimmy Webb decision lol

when Mary reformed the group, i think they did make the right decision to re-amp the glamour and hit the disco scene hard. easy way to re-engage with the core fans and tap into a new generation too. On record with Scherrie in lead, they had some extremely strong moments. but mary was using the group as a platform to launch her solo ambitions. bad idea

on stage during the Scherrie years they suffered. Mary favored the massive Gone With the Wind dresses with huge skirts. did nothing to highlight their sharp disco choreography. They were doing too much cabaret show crap. Mary's voice wasn't really suited to lead the uptempo work. And they should have tapped into Scherrie [[and later Susaye's) songwriting ability. that would have added a more modern and interesting element to the group

[Jimi LaLumia]

it was all over when Frank Wilson was sent on his way, sheer stupidity, the equivalent of DMF losing H/D/H

[Jimi LaLumia]

no more so than things were built around Smokey, Levi, Martha or Gladys..The Supremes, built on the Ross sound, just had bigger success than the others so why then would they divert the lead to others? to be fair? lol Motown was a hard nosed business not a hippie commune,and they were all getting those homes, furs and cars equally, weren't they..they should have never rocked the boat, stayed in Gordy's good graces, let DR leave, and then show us what they could do as solo Motown artists.

[midnightman]

they were not three equal partners from the beginning..
in the beginning there were actually four..
and Ross didn't 'emerge',she sang lead on most every single 'no hits Supremes' record..
I don't recall hearing of any complaints about it at that time..
and when the H/D/H-Ross 'fusion' brought on the big hits,
it was that Ross success sound that bought all of them their cars,
their furs, their homes..not heard of any complaints about any of that either;
Ross was the lead singer when they had nothing, and her leads brought them
everything..until the day came when the thought occurred that 'anybody
and everybody' could be Diana Ross if they just slept around...
well, if THAT were the case...lol..never mind.. I won't go there..
but just quite down already with the nonsense

True. Diana was always singing lead.

The problem is many think what happened in Dreamgirls happened in the Supremes when the truth is a very different story. Much like how people think the Dells' story was like the Five Heartbeats when it wasn't [[The Dells never got in the news for drugs or alcohol and besides Johnny Funches leaving the group to raise his family, no drama with any of the members that you saw in the Five Heartbeats).

That's why the original cast of Dreamgirls protested when the media compared them to the Supremes. No one sang as good as Jennifer Holliday in the Supremes but they were great singers anyway.

People believed a myth.

[midnightman]

makes one wonder 1000 "what ifs"

some of mary's decisions, i'm guessing, are due to the struggle. when you're drowning, you don't always have the time or ability to sit thoughtfully and explore options.

the early years with JMC were wonderful. they re-established themselves and created a new sound. as that began to wane by mid 71/early 72 is where things begin to unravel. Frankly i thought the Floy Joy set worked very well as an evolution of their sound and style. they'd spent 2 years working with frank and, while chart positions didn't always support it, they made a wonderful artistic statement. Sort of a shame they didn't continue to work with Smokey and evolve that sound.

and we all know about the Jimmy Webb decision lol

when Mary reformed the group, i think they did make the right decision to re-amp the glamour and hit the disco scene hard. easy way to re-engage with the core fans and tap into a new generation too. On record with Scherrie in lead, they had some extremely strong moments. but mary was using the group as a platform to launch her solo ambitions. bad idea

on stage during the Scherrie years they suffered. Mary favored the massive Gone With the Wind dresses with huge skirts. did nothing to highlight their sharp disco choreography. They were doing too much cabaret show crap. Mary's voice wasn't really suited to lead the uptempo work. And they should have tapped into Scherrie [[and later Susaye's) songwriting ability. that would have added a more modern and interesting element to the group

True. So many things went wrong. Mary was no Otis Williams... Otis was able to see what was going on as the times changed and the Temptations managed to survive. The Supremes didn't have that luck.

[Jimi LaLumia]

not to mention that most accounts share the fact that Flo was happy with Ross in the lead..Flo's issues were with BERRY GORDY! but I guess hair pulling females is a much more glamorous image to pontificate about on a daily basis! so on with the show!!

[midnightman]

not to mention that most accounts share the fact that Flo was happy with Ross in the lead..Flo's issues were with BERRY GORDY! but I guess hair pulling females is a much more glamorous image to pontificate about on a daily basis! so on with the show!!

Yeah, Flo's issues were mainly with Berry. Flo and Diana were like sisters. When you've been close for as long as they were, you're gonna have spats. Flo's issues were bigger than fighting over a lead singer spot.

[RanRan79]

No one sang as good as Jennifer Holliday in the Supremes but they were great singers anyway.

Says who? Lol Great is relative, isn't it?

[RanRan79]

Yeah, Flo's issues were mainly with Berry. Flo and Diana were like sisters. When you've been close for as long as they were, you're gonna have spats. Flo's issues were bigger than fighting over a lead singer spot.

Contrary to that post you responded to, Flo didn't mind Diana in the lead, evidenced by her claim that it was Flo who chose "I Am Woman" for their act as she thought Diana would be great on it. But Florence has never said she didn't want to sing lead. She was a lead singer in the early days, why would she want to move to only background? But even with Diana in the lead spot, Flo and Mary had their places in the spotlight. When it became clear that Gordy was orchestrating a move to where Diana's visibility would increase and Flo and Mary's would decrease, that's when the problems started.

[RanRan79]

And Flo wasn't interested at the end anyway.

Nope. Once Flo was done with the group, she was done. Maybe, just maybe, had Mary's group jumped ship when they should have, and eventually needed a replacement, Flo might, might, have considered joining. But considering the level of hostility you hear in Flo's words about Gordy in the mid 70s and it's clear she would have never come back to his company. Besides, by the time Flo started getting her head back in the singing game she was a 30+ year old woman with three children. The Supremes were her youth and she failed to make the public take notice of her as a solo artist the first time around. I imagine she would have been relishing the chance to emerge from the welfare story as the Flo Ballard, solo star.

[sup_fan]

flo never solved her demons. those plagued her until she died. she said she was wanting back in the business towards the end but who knows what would have come of that. sure she could sing like Aretha [[sort of) and with the greatly expanded R&B scene by the 70s there could certainly have been more stylistic opportunities for her to explore.

Mary and Diana [[along with other Sups like cindy) completely understood the rule that no matter what, you get on that stage and deliver for your audience. they fully believed in that tenant of show business. Flo did not. she was willing to skip rehearsals, PR functions, performances, recording sessions, etc.

Part of what made Diana Ross into DIANA ROSS was her ceaseless work ethic. she did everything humanly possible to ensure that whatever she was responsible for was as close to perfect as possible. she had the drive

I do not believe Flo had the drive to be a major star regardless of the label she was on.

[midnightman]

Nope. Once Flo was done with the group, she was done. Maybe, just maybe, had Mary's group jumped ship when they should have, and eventually needed a replacement, Flo might, might, have considered joining. But considering the level of hostility you hear in Flo's words about Gordy in the mid 70s and it's clear she would have never come back to his company. Besides, by the time Flo started getting her head back in the singing game she was a 30+ year old woman with three children. The Supremes were her youth and she failed to make the public take notice of her as a solo artist the first time around. I imagine she would have been relishing the chance to emerge from the welfare story as the Flo Ballard, solo star.

I kept thinking of Bettye LaVette when it was mentioned Florence had started to sing again in 1975 and was like "I wonder had Flo lived, would she have a career like Bettye's?" I can definitely see it.

Too young to go. Way too young... her demons may have just caught up with her and God decided "you suffered enough, my child, come home", despite the fact she had three children to take care of.

UGH... it gets sadder and sadder the more that I think about it!

[RanRan79]

flo never solved her demons. those plagued her until she died. she said she was wanting back in the business towards the end but who knows what would have come of that. sure she could sing like Aretha [[sort of) and with the greatly expanded R&B scene by the 70s there could certainly have been more stylistic opportunities for her to explore.

Mary and Diana [[along with other Sups like cindy) completely understood the rule that no matter what, you get on that stage and deliver for your audience. they fully believed in that tenant of show business. Flo did not. she was willing to skip rehearsals, PR functions, performances, recording sessions, etc.

Part of what made Diana Ross into DIANA ROSS was her ceaseless work ethic. she did everything humanly possible to ensure that whatever she was responsible for was as close to perfect as possible. she had the drive

I do not believe Flo had the drive to be a major star regardless of the label she was on.

Diana's work ethic is unsurpassed, but she also had someone pushing her into exhaustion and an eating disorder. Flo's work ethic doesn't ever seem to come into question until 1966, at which point it's pretty well documented that many of her bad decisions were under the influence of alcohol, mood altering medication and working closely with people she didn't trust. Comparing 32 year old Florence to 24 year old Florence doesn't seem fair to me. Demons she may have had, but it appears that doesn't make her the exception in the music business, it's the rule, considering how many superstars seemed to have had worst issues than Florence ever did. And being a part of a group on the level of the Supremes and being a single artist is also a world of difference. I don't know if Flo would have ever achieved hit singles, but I see no reason to doubt her ability to have given the game at least one more go.

[RanRan79]

I kept thinking of Bettye LaVette when it was mentioned Florence had started to sing again in 1975 and was like "I wonder had Flo lived, would she have a career like Bettye's?" I can definitely see it.

Too young to go. Way too young... her demons may have just caught up with her and God decided "you suffered enough, my child, come home", despite the fact she had three children to take care of.

UGH... it gets sadder and sadder the more that I think about it!

I don't see why not. I have tons of singers in my collection who recorded music for many years, sometimes with long breaks in between. Often they failed to find more than one hit, but they were steadily working and recording. I can't imagine why Florence would've been so different. Flo was always going to be a star. She was one of the world famous Supremes, and of course no one was going to forget her "rags to riches to rags" story anytime soon. She could have definitely parlayed that into, at the very least, semi regular singing work.

[midnightman]

I don't see why not. I have tons of singers in my collection who recorded music for many years, sometimes with long breaks in between. Often they failed to find more than one hit, but they were steadily working and recording. I can't imagine why Florence would've been so different. Flo was always going to be a star. She was one of the world famous Supremes, and of course no one was going to forget her "rags to riches to rags" story anytime soon. She could have definitely parlayed that into, at the very least, semi regular singing work.

Right. I can imagine the articles and then if she won a Grammy. Now that would be one of those "ultimate comeback stories". Forget Effie White, she would've been singing interpretations of pop and rock songs as well as Bettye did. I mean she DID do I Am Woman at her final gig lol

[TheMotownManiac]

when Mary reformed the group with scherrie and cindy, i believe motown was not in favor of the group continuing at all. more than likely, once Jean and Lynda left, i think Berry and team figured the group was done and disbanded. but mary kept pushing and brought the other two in. They sort of floated in limbo as motown didn't really want to do anything with them but finally gave in.

My theory is that berry felt a little sentimental about things and gave the green light to the MSC grouping and recordings. He had certainly dropped other artists before and given the track record of the later supremes records with Jean plus his lack of interest in artistically developing Mary, he could have just said No.

had mary proposed bringing flo back, it definitely would have been a No. Berry wanted nothing to do with Flo. from his perspective, she'd caused huge amounts of turmoil while in the group and had also brought legal action against he and motown.

Mary had to focus on saving herself - not like she had many other options available to her in late 73. trying to be flo's savoir would have been suicide for herself

If Motown was against the new grouping - they wouldn’t have renewed the contract with Mary. It was Mary who kept the group in limbo with the name fight. Once it was settled, they went into the studio with HDH no less to get it back together. They did all the TV they could get on, trade ads, live gigs, Diana gave them a nod while plugging Mahogany on Johnny Carson - 45 and 12” single releases - what more could they do? He’s My Man could have hit better with some tweaking on Mary’s vocal and Scherrie’s enouciation. It’s really a killer track and the last half is near-pop perfection. It could easily have been their ticket back to life. And I do not blame Motown for its failure at all.

Had Flo returned with Mary and Scherrie it would have been ideal. But who was gonna raise her kids? Flo would have done better as there was a much lighter schedule in 75 that in 67 - no new routines to learn for TV - not the hectic travel and not the tv, paper and radio interviews in each city. Flo could have done it.

[TheMotownManiac]

when Mary reformed the group with scherrie and cindy, i believe motown was not in favor of the group continuing at all. more than likely, once Jean and Lynda left, i think Berry and team figured the group was done and disbanded. but mary kept pushing and brought the other two in. They sort of floated in limbo as motown didn't really want to do anything with them but finally gave in.

My theory is that berry felt a little sentimental about things and gave the green light to the MSC grouping and recordings. He had certainly dropped other artists before and given the track record of the later supremes records with Jean plus his lack of interest in artistically developing Mary, he could have just said No.

had mary proposed bringing flo back, it definitely would have been a No. Berry wanted nothing to do with Flo. from his perspective, she'd caused huge amounts of turmoil while in the group and had also brought legal action against he and motown.

Mary had to focus on saving herself - not like she had many other options available to her in late 73. trying to be flo's savoir would have been suicide for herself

If Motown was against the new grouping - they wouldn’t have renewed the contract with Mary. It was Mary who kept the group in limbo with the name fight. Once it was settled, they went into the studio with HDH no less to get it back together. They did all the TV they could get on, trade ads, live gigs, Diana gave them a nod while plugging Mahogany on Johnny Carson - 45 and 12” single releases - what more could they do? He’s My Man could have hit better with some tweaking on Mary’s vocal and Scherrie’s enouciation. It’s really a killer track and the last half is near-pop perfection. It could easily have been their ticket back to life. And I do not blame Motown for its failure at all.

Had Flo returned with Mary and Scherrie it would have been ideal. But who was gonna raise her kids? Flo would have done better as there was a much lighter schedule in 75 that in 67 - no new routines to learn for TV - not the hectic travel and not the tv, paper and radio interviews in each city. Flo could have done it.

mary would have had to be generous with decision making with Flo. Each could have had a featured spot with Scherrie doing the leads on the hits and pop pieces. Mary could have nailed a ballad or two, with Flo tearing up a few R&B songs. THAT would have been The Supremes enough for me!

[midnightman]

TBH though, Flo, when she was in the Supremes, didn't mind it if Diana and Mary had more leads than her so I doubt she would've raised a fuss had she joined them again if they were able to leave with the name and leave Motown.

[sup_fan]

If Motown was against the new grouping - they wouldn’t have renewed the contract with Mary. It was Mary who kept the group in limbo with the name fight. Once it was settled, they went into the studio with HDH no less to get it back together. They did all the TV they could get on, trade ads, live gigs, Diana gave them a nod while plugging Mahogany on Johnny Carson - 45 and 12” single releases - what more could they do? He’s My Man could have hit better with some tweaking on Mary’s vocal and Scherrie’s enouciation. It’s really a killer track and the last half is near-pop perfection. It could easily have been their ticket back to life. And I do not blame Motown for its failure at all.

Had Flo returned with Mary and Scherrie it would have been ideal. But who was gonna raise her kids? Flo would have done better as there was a much lighter schedule in 75 that in 67 - no new routines to learn for TV - not the hectic travel and not the tv, paper and radio interviews in each city. Flo could have done it.

mary would have had to be generous with decision making with Flo. Each could have had a featured spot with Scherrie doing the leads on the hits and pop pieces. Mary could have nailed a ballad or two, with Flo tearing up a few R&B songs. THAT would have been The Supremes enough for me!

see i've heard that part of the dragging of feet with contract negotiations was the motown had little interest in the group. it should have been pretty quick and easy to buy out Scherrie's contract with Invictus but it took them months. mary didn't really start the push for the name until early 74.

[TheMotownManiac]

There was no need to hurry to buy out Scherrie as there was no official group at the time to sign her to as Mary was not signing anything without the name. She says this in her book - Which, I admit, doesn’t exactly mean it’s true…… But, in this case, she has no reason to… Creatively push the truth around in a manner beneficial to her self.

[BayouMotownMan]

There was no need to hurry to buy out Scherrie as there was no official group at the time to sign her to as Mary was not signing anything without the name. She says this in her book - Which, I admit, doesn’t exactly mean it’s true…… But, in this case, she has no reason to… Creatively push the truth around in a manner beneficial to her self.

Scherrie and Cindy made their first appearances with Mary in late Oct 1973. Scherrie was still under full contract to Invictus, which was in a deep state of flux and in the process of closing down. Motown had to deal with the Holland Bros, which had to be difficult because Eddie Holland had always kept BG in court.

Ewart Abner and other higher ups were furious with Mary for recruiting these ladies without their knowledge or input. Gordy had hoped that with Mary getting married she'd be out of his hair.

In early 1974 Mary appealed to the fans to bombard Motown with letters of demand through Randy Taraborrelli's Supremes fan club. I know I wrote dozens of letters. While Gordy suspected Mary was behind this letter writing campaign, management at Motown still had to take notice that there was still demand for a grouping of Supremes. Additionally, revues with Scherrie involved were glorious and Motown had to acknowledge this as well.

Finally in late 1974 Mary agreed to a percentage on the group name and all three ladies signed. In fact, the Holland brothers came back to Motown to produce music. Mary Wilson was also pregnant through this ordeal and Cindy was divorcing her husband.

Believe me when I tell you from 73-75 there was a ton of drama regarding The Supremes.

[sup_fan]

Believe me when I tell you from 73-75 there was a ton of drama regarding The Supremes.

would be very interested in hearing more about the situation. some of the different options that might have been discussed or available, some of the details of decisions

[midnightman]

What was the percentage she agreed to, Bayou? Have any idea how much that she agreed with Motown to have the Supremes enter a new contract? It does seem like after 1973, Motown wanted to finish the Supremes then.

[sup_fan]

i think it was 50% of the sales price of the name. but only the sales price if sold. she had no rights to usage or exploitation of the name

[RanRan79]

A Go Go only made things worse for a Flo as she’s not on half of it, Mary got a lead and it went to #1 - so I’m sure her feelings were hurt learning that she wasn’t needed on their highest charting album.

That's not true. The only song Flo isn't on [[aside from Diana's "Boots" solo) is "Put Yourself In My Place", which of course we know now is Mary and Marlene. "You Can't Hurry Love" is questionable. But the tracks attributed to Mary and Marlene mostly ended up in the can, not on the original album. A Go Go is as much a Flo album as the previous ones.

[midnightman]

i think it was 50% of the sales price of the name. but only the sales price if sold. she had no rights to usage or exploitation of the name

Oh Lord... that wasn't a good business move at all!

[midnightman]

That's not true. The only song Flo isn't on [[aside from Diana's "Boots" solo) is "Put Yourself In My Place", which of course we know now is Mary and Marlene. "You Can't Hurry Love" is questionable. But the tracks attributed to Mary and Marlene mostly ended up in the can, not on the original album. A Go Go is as much a Flo album as the previous ones.

I think YCHL could've been Flo, Mary and Marlene?

One Supremes song I question is Stop! In the Name of Love. I think Flo and Mary is on it but it sounded like a third girl was also singing background with them. In the extended version, when they are singing acapella, you hear this stronger sounding STOP! at the end of it that could've been an Andante with Flo and Mary too?

[PeaceNHarmony]

Believe me when I tell you from 73-75 there was a ton of drama regarding The Supremes.

We know, we know! But some revisionists try to make believe that all the drama came from Diana. Whateves. That's all they have - let 'em have it.

[marv2]

it was all over when Frank Wilson was sent on his way, sheer stupidity, the equivalent of DMF losing H/D/H

I have to agree with this. It was almost like sabotage, but I am not a conspiracy theorist. LOL!!!!

[marv2]

I kept thinking of Bettye LaVette when it was mentioned Florence had started to sing again in 1975 and was like "I wonder had Flo lived, would she have a career like Bettye's?" I can definitely see it.

Too young to go. Way too young... her demons may have just caught up with her and God decided "you suffered enough, my child, come home", despite the fact she had three children to take care of.

UGH... it gets sadder and sadder the more that I think about it!

You should have been around the moment the death announcement hit the Detroit local TV news or the day of the funeral. Sad is not the word.

[midnightman]

We know, we know! But some revisionists try to make believe that all the drama came from Diana. Whateves. That's all they have - let 'em have it.

And that drama followed them when Mary left. The Supremes weren't officially disbanded until the end of 1977. Not on the date Mary left lol

[RanRan79]

I think YCHL could've been Flo, Mary and Marlene?

One Supremes song I question is Stop! In the Name of Love. I think Flo and Mary is on it but it sounded like a third girl was also singing background with them. In the extended version, when they are singing acapella, you hear this stronger sounding STOP! at the end of it that could've been an Andante with Flo and Mary too?

I don't think there's three on background on "Hurry". It's either Flo and Mary or Mary and Marlene. "Stop" is controversial because apparently there's been two official stories from the guys who do the set booklets. I think for one set it is said that the single version it's Flo, Mary and one[[?) Andante and then another set says it's just the Andantes. I think it's the Supremes and the Andantes. The backgrounds don't sound so different to me, except the very first version on the pink box set, which is undeniably Florence.

[sup_fan]

YCHL background vocals were recorded on July 5, 1966 and that was the day they recorded MIsery, Just a little misunderstanding and others. it's been documented with the session logs that flo was NOT at the session and marlene was. there are also no subsequent recording dates for this song so she was not added later. All of this data comes from the liner notes/booklet for A Go Go Expanded

Flo is not on YCHL

on A Go Go she is on all tracks but Put Yourself In My Place, You Can't Hurry Love and Boots.

if you look at the hit singles, flo missed several important songs - YCHL, Stop [[where she might be on it along with the Andantes), In and out [[her vocals were covered over by the andantes) and there are rumors about whether or not she's on Reflections.

[sup_fan]

And that drama followed them when Mary left. The Supremes weren't officially disbanded until the end of 1977. Not on the date Mary left lol

actually the group would have disbanded as of either the dates of the contract expiration or another legal agreement overriding a contract in place

As of June 77, the officially signed group known as the supremes consisted of Mary, scherrie and Susaye. After their performance at the Drury Lane, they did not have any subsequent recording sessions [[that we know of), no additional performances on stage or tv, no official personal appearances, etc.

So a group could technically exist legally

[midnightman]

actually the group would have disbanded as of either the dates of the contract expiration or another legal agreement overriding a contract in place

As of June 77, the officially signed group known as the supremes consisted of Mary, scherrie and Susaye. After their performance at the Drury Lane, they did not have any subsequent recording sessions [[that we know of), no additional performances on stage or tv, no official personal appearances, etc.

So a group could technically exist legally

I see. I wonder how long that contract Mary had signed with the Supremes was set to expire? Did she ever bring it up in the Someday We'll Be Together memoirs? I'm guessing after she left the group, she could no longer fight for ownership of the group though she kept trying in the '80s?

[midnightman]

I don't think there's three on background on "Hurry". It's either Flo and Mary or Mary and Marlene. "Stop" is controversial because apparently there's been two official stories from the guys who do the set booklets. I think for one set it is said that the single version it's Flo, Mary and one[[?) Andante and then another set says it's just the Andantes. I think it's the Supremes and the Andantes. The backgrounds don't sound so different to me, except the very first version on the pink box set, which is undeniably Florence.

The Supremes and Andantes being on "Stop!" makes sense because you definitely hear a blend of their voices. But the way it was recorded, it's so muddled you can't tell. I know it's Flo and Mary behind Diana when they're doing "baby baby, baby baby" and "think it over" but when you get to the chorus, it definitely sounds like more voices. WHEW! I mean we had a "Wall of Sound" in California but that's a wall of sound if the Supremes and Andantes are singing "stop in the name of love before..." together.

[midnightman]

YCHL background vocals were recorded on July 5, 1966 and that was the day they recorded MIsery, Just a little misunderstanding and others. it's been documented with the session logs that flo was NOT at the session and marlene was. there are also no subsequent recording dates for this song so she was not added later. All of this data comes from the liner notes/booklet for A Go Go Expanded

Flo is not on YCHL

on A Go Go she is on all tracks but Put Yourself In My Place, You Can't Hurry Love and Boots.

if you look at the hit singles, flo missed several important songs - YCHL, Stop [[where she might be on it along with the Andantes), In and out [[her vocals were covered over by the andantes) and there are rumors about whether or not she's on Reflections.

I see! I mean I thought it sounded like Marlene on Hurry but wasn't sure...

[franjoy56]

makes one wonder 1000 "what ifs"

some of mary's decisions, i'm guessing, are due to the struggle. when you're drowning, you don't always have the time or ability to sit thoughtfully and explore options.

the early years with JMC were wonderful. they re-established themselves and created a new sound. as that began to wane by mid 71/early 72 is where things begin to unravel. Frankly i thought the Floy Joy set worked very well as an evolution of their sound and style. they'd spent 2 years working with frank and, while chart positions didn't always support it, they made a wonderful artistic statement. Sort of a shame they didn't continue to work with Smokey and evolve that sound.

and we all know about the Jimmy Webb decision lol

when Mary reformed the group, i think they did make the right decision to re-amp the glamour and hit the disco scene hard. easy way to re-engage with the core fans and tap into a new generation too. On record with Scherrie in lead, they had some extremely strong moments. but mary was using the group as a platform to launch her solo ambitions. bad idea

on stage during the Scherrie years they suffered. Mary favored the massive Gone With the Wind dresses with huge skirts. did nothing to highlight their sharp disco choreography. They were doing too much cabaret show crap. Mary's voice wasn't really suited to lead the uptempo work. And they should have tapped into Scherrie [[and later Susaye's) songwriting ability. that would have added a more modern and interesting element to the group

ur analaysis is very good, i would add that scherrie should gotten more leads during this period u see what iglmhdtw did but after it stopped at no. 40 motown let it die

[TheMotownManiac]

Motown “let it die?” How did they do that exactly? How do you work a record into the top 40 and let it die? Why? Fact is, it’s not that good of a record. It’s just a dance tune with an annoying intro.

[franjoy56]

Motown “let it die?” How did they do that exactly? How do you work a record into the top 40 and let it die? Why? Fact is, it’s not that good of a record. It’s just a dance tune with an annoying intro.

how do u let a record die djs stop playing it. Scherrie even said radio stations were told not to play supremes records after 74 but play ross records instead. Iglmhdtw was a hit and it definetly should have surpassed t top 40 peak. Thank goodness it caught on ion t disco charts and clubs hitting number 3. U let a record die by stop promoting it when its at a critical break or bullet up point. Another record was bad weather. I couldnt find that single until its run was over