Autopsy: The Last Hours of Florence Ballard on REELZ Channel-Sun 7/29/08 9PM

[sup_fan]

Nah lol
That was to sup_fan
But yeah I know you and I are in agreement.

and just for the record - i enjoy all of the fan dialog here. the sharing of differing opinions and thoughts

please don't read my posts as attacks or anything negative

[thanxal]

but when you're terminated, you're not going to be given extras, perks, bonuses. they're going to limit what they have to do to end the situation.

Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

[midnightman]

and just for the record - i enjoy all of the fan dialog here. the sharing of differing opinions and thoughts

please don't read my posts as attacks or anything negative

Haha no I won't ever read them like that. I'm enjoying this discussion too with everyone in here.

[midnightman]

oh i completely agree that worth doesn't necessary equate to compensation. clearly motown knew she was worth more as Berry and everyone tried to deal with the situation for so long. The idea of firing a Supreme was unthinkable until it finally just became too risky to keep her. Gordy knew that the 3 girls were all talented entertainers and to get rid of one could really compromise the appeal and success of the overall

The group most certainly generated a huge amount of money for motown. much much more than what was paid or contractually owed to the girls. that's why they put up with Flo's fighting. the success of the company depended on the continued success of the supremes.

but when you're terminated, you're not going to be given extras, perks, bonuses. they're going to limit what they have to do to end the situation. they tried offering just $15K [[which is truly outlandish) and then Flo came back and negotiated a better settlement. i'm frankly a little surprised motown didn't try to enforce that she signed the first agreement but maybe their lawyers advised that would most likely not hold up in court if Flo sued.

OK I understand what you mean now... I see why they settled the way they did then!

[marv2]

Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

Oh they made it tough for her. "Flo, you're too fat!", "Flo, you're drunk, go home..", "Flo, you're singing flat" yada, yada, yada. They tried it on her, but she wouldn't quit. She had to be fired. Had she quit, she would have lost most of any legal grounds she may have had. If she had the proper lawyer, Motown would had to cough up a whole lot more than the total $175,000 they offered her. Florence Ballard NEVER received an proper accounting of what she earned while at Motown. This all smells bad because she was left with Motown holding all of the power when they sent that snake Michael Roshkind to meet her that day at Northland in Southfiedl!

[marv2]

Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

That is what happens to lots of people here in New York being that it is a "Right to Work" State.

[marv2]

It may have been a lot in 1967 but she was part of the Supremes, which is what I'm trying to say here. You mean 10 number one singles and a few number one albums not to mention the top 10s in between and earning Motown more money than other artists could ever imagine and she only walked away with that much. I'm just trying to say she got robbed of more money. That's all.

They each got something like $6,000 -7,000 for a million selling album! That is peanuts even by 1960s standards!

[BayouMotownMan]

They each got something like $6,000 -7,000 for a million selling album! That is peanuts even by 1960s standards!

Inaccurate again, they had to SPLIT THREE WAYS that amount.

The amount of royalties each Supreme received was negligible. By the time costs of unreleased and/or unsuccessful recordings were charged against them it kept them in a negative balance. Also they had to pay for Mrs Powell, Cholly Atkins and an assortment of other musician charges as well as studio time. Add to that the purchases of homes, cars, jewelry and clothing and this kept the balance of what Motown owed them in the negative.

The Supremes made the bulk of their monies for personal appearances, tv shows, and endorsements.

[marv2]

Inaccurate again, they had to SPLIT THREE WAYS that amount.

The amount of royalties each Supreme received was negligible. By the time costs of unreleased and/or unsuccessful recordings were charged against them it kept them in a negative balance. Also they had to pay for Mrs Powell, Cholly Atkins and an assortment of other musician charges as well as studio time. Add to that the purchases of homes, cars, jewelry and clothing and this kept the balance of what Motown owed them in the negative.

The Supremes made the bulk of their monies for personal appearances, tv shows, and endorsements.

Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!

[PeaceNHarmony]

Well, if autopsy didn't settle the issues once and for all I'm sure the upcoming, all-star, big budget movie will.

[milven]

Hey Marv, Not criticizing your post, but I had to chuckle at one line of your text. It seems Trumpese Speak is catching and we are are starting to speak it.

... Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!

Donald said something similar at one of his many rallies to his base this week

" Don't Believe What You See And Read" Donald Trump

[milven]

...Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers....

In your video reference, Mary said that when the group disbanded in 1970, she got 100,000. Did Diana get the same amount? What about Cindy? Also, I believed that the group disbanded in 1977. Did Motown regard the Supremes after 1970 as a new group and start a new set of bookeeping or is that when Mary's Supremes Inc. took over? So much of the Supremes 1970's history is confusing to me. I always considered them a continuing group with changing members

[TheMotownManiac]

If your point is that it would've been a wise decision on Gordy's part to separate them due to the friction, there is no argument against that. Set aside the fact [[my opinion anyway) that Gordy was the cause of the friction in the first place, if he was really about helping the situation, why give one girl a dressing room over the others? Surely he would've been smart enough to know that while this may stop some of the before and after show bickering, it would not put an end to it in general and would only increase it, since young women have a tendency to be jealous when another woman seems to be getting more of something than she. [[And ladies I realize I'm generalizing so I'll take my chastisements as they come.) If Gordy wanted to ease the tension then why not give all three girls their own dressing room? That's the argument I'm making. I don't see how anyone can argue that giving one girl her own anything vs the other two makes any sense when the folks in charge should be doing everything they can to make the ship run as smoothly as possible. There is no smooth sailing when you have three young ladies and one is getting special treatment. 1966, 1776, 2016...no matter the year, young women that age tend to react to the situation in the same way. Gordy knew that.

I agree that giving them each their own room would have been the best option, but i’ll Bet Flo wouldn’t have wanted it that way until she stopped talking to Mary in early ‘67. I used to do a lot of theater and the dressing room was a fun place to get charged up before the show. Had I always been the star, maybe i’d Have wanted less hub bub around me, but I didn’t feel that way with the few leads I had. I was acting though, not trying to work an audience with my charm - I dunno, had I been Ross and in conflict with either girl or both, I’d have wanted to get my shit together before the show without the negs.

I agree Gordyvwas a shake, and After losing Mary Wells, was wise to keep the goose laying the golden eggs in his own hen house - and away from the other, influential chickens. I admire his work a lot, but he was rotten. All three girls deserved much better from him - yes, Flo was wrong to act out. There’s no excuse, if your boss is a creep, shut the fuck up about it until you are off work. It’s unprofessional to bring bad vibes to work - period. A Go Go only made things worse for a Flo as she’s not on half of it, Mary got a lead and it went to #1 - so I’m sure her feelings were hurt learning that she wasn’t needed on their highest charting album. It’s all so sad. Such a sweet girl - trampled by An avoricious visionary.

[Roberta75]

Well, if autopsy didn't settle the issues once and for all I'm sure the upcoming, all-star, big budget movie will.

LOL. I wouldnt hold your breath for that one coming to theaters anytime soon.

[Roberta75]

Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!

The gospel according to St Mary Wilson. LOL

[RanRan79]

They were the MOST famous group in the world. Maybe you were thinking of that other group from the UK? Nope. They were bugs compared to our girls!

[P.S. LOL in case its not obvious].

Ha! Well, most sources do note that for a time the Supremes rivaled the Beatles in popularity. That's no small feat. The Supremes were some badd girls.

[thanxal]

Ha! Well, most sources do note that for a time the Supremes rivaled the Beatles in popularity. That's no small feat. The Supremes were some badd girls.

Never heard of these beetles of which you speak. FAKE NOOOS FAKE NOOOS FAKE NOOOS.

[RanRan79]

There was a reason why Berry Gordy didn't pull Diana from the group as early as 1966 when tensions were rising. He knew if he did that he would alienate the fan base. The fans still saw them as a group, regardless of what was going on behind the scenes.

Her voice was always up front but the exposure of her name and her image as the focal point was done over time.

By 1969 it was basically a given that she was leaving, even before there was an official announcement. Motown started booking solo gigs even before she left. I believe two of them were her appearances on "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" and the Dinah Shore television special, "Like Hep".

While I do think Gordy may have considered the fans, I think ultimately he knew what should have been apparent to everyone else: Diana was not a solo act. Love me some Ross as I do, I watch her as a Supreme during that time period and nothing about her screams that she'd be someone that people would fall over themselves wanting to see alone at that point. She was the something extra in a singing group; a something extra that was so extra that it seems a lot folks either loved her or hated her for it. Doesn't seem like there was much room for indifference to what she brought to the table. You mention image, and that's the key. When the DRATS era entered, Diana Ross became something else entirely. Aside from her name now being out front, as a performer she seemed to jump right out ahead of the competition soon as Flo left. She was cultivating the Ross enchantment. Vocally Diana was great, but it was the total package that pushed her ahead of the pack when she finally did go solo. And yet even after two years of having her name and image pushed ahead of the Supremes, after doing solo spots without the girls, after recording hit singles with no other Supremes on them, and with a publicity campaign to announce her exit from the group, she still debuted to a half filled venue. After all of that, half filled? In 1970? Wow. I imagine Diana Ross, solo artist, in 1966/67 would have probably at least filled half a house, but I think if she were ever going to be the DIANA ROSS that she would eventually become, she would've endured a few years of so-so success before fulfilling her destiny. And I believe Gordy knew that. There may have been a contemplation of the question "can Diane make it as a solo artist", but I doubt if it was ever given any real consideration in 1966.

[RanRan79]

i wonder if her family was also HUGELY responsible for her demise. their inability to provide any real guidance or sound advice surely played a major role in her decisions, both good and bad. there have been multiple sources that have states they elevated their own personal lots via her fame, that they always had demands for money which she always gave, that their advice consisted of 'don't you let The Man push you around' and not really balanced on how to handle the issues of fame and corporate politics.

I think it's unfair to put any blame on her family. They may have asked Flo for a lot, and that would be no surprise. Probably 90 percent of celebrities' family members ask for a lot. But any "advice" she was getting was most certainly coming from information that Florence was relaying about her experience. And while I tend to side with Flo's side of the story on some of the behind the scenes antics, it was her side of the story, and so would surely be biased somehow. Personally, if my sister were to tell me of things going on at her job that was unfair and down right cruel from her POV, my advice to her would also be don't let anyone push her around. And Flo shouldn't have allowed herself to be pushed around. Her biggest downfall was that she self medicated, which never allows a person to make great decisions, and I find it hard to believe that her family told her to do that.

[thanxal]

And Flo shouldn't have allowed herself to be pushed around. Her biggest downfall was that she self medicated, which never allows a person to make great decisions, and I find it hard to believe that her family told her to do that.

But do also remember that she suffered from an untreated rape in an era where women and African Americans were second or third class citizens. Compound those three factors alone and it is amazing to me she was still able to accomplish all she did. Americans [[not you in particular RR) tend to blame individuals for structural violence, expecting that an individual has the resources, information, and ability to act against large structural forces [[of violence in this case). Its why libertarianism is such quackery.

[RanRan79]

Mary also makes the point that success makes you overlook things. had DMF signed to another label, i think it's very safe to say the story of the Sups would be drastically different. the relationship berry had with all 3 girls and especially diana, the perfect alignment between he and hers vision for cross-over success, the combo of HDH and Sups, motowns visions [[which they also subsidized for the artists) of Artist Development, the motown concept of Quality Control. all of these are intangibles that were absolutely essential to the Supremes recording success.

so in light of all of these, it's hard to say if they were all that robbed. what price would you associate for having practically total exclusive access to the talents of HDH and receiving their undivided attention to craft not 1, not 2, not 10 but dozens of amazing songs for you?

what about the benefit of having Berry's personal guidance with your career management? most of the other artists actually site his preoccupation with the Sups as a detriment to their own careers. So the sups benefited from that.

the costs of artist development, designing their major and groundbreaking live appearances at the copa?

plus there's all of the costs they WERE billed for - gowns, stage makeup, recording sessions, photo shoots, etc.

and don't forget they spend their money lavishly

so at the end of the day, by mid 67 if all Flo had in her accounts was $700K, i'm not so sure that's really inaccurate or that she was robbed.

Now this I have a problem with. You can't do me wrong in any aspect but follow it up with "but all the other things I did for you...". Nah, that doesn't fly with me. The Supremes had benefits that most artists at the time- at any time actually- could only dream about. But can't the same be said of Motown? What other record label had a Supremes? Would Motown be Motown without the Supremes? The Supremes were making Motown money, not really the other way around. I'd be surprised to learn that Gordy was dipping into his personal bank account [[as income from his job as the boss of Motown) to pay for anything once the Supremes hit their stride. All those plane rides, the costumes, Cholly and Maurice and Gil and the band, the meals, the recording sessions, the photo shoots, were no doubt being paid for via "Where Did Our Love Go" and "The Happening", and every hit in between, not to mention the money commanded for appearances and performances.

So sure, everything that happened allowed Mary to command attention for 50 years off the strength of being a Supreme alone, and while Flo isn't around to reap any benefits, the fact that she is still remembered at all, more than 50 years after leaving the group, speaks to the advantage of being a Supreme. [[Diana Ross obviously has had a long and successful career after leaving the group, but obviously even that owes something to the years she put in the Supremes.) But that doesn't erase the underhandedness of the contractual/business situation. How do you negotiate a contract with yourself? That should've been enough to void any contract the girls signed. Motown was dirty, I don't care what kind of way that pie is sliced.

[RanRan79]

and just for the record - i enjoy all of the fan dialog here. the sharing of differing opinions and thoughts

please don't read my posts as attacks or anything negative

I don't think anyone could ever accuse you of attacks Sup.

[RanRan79]

Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

You betcha. It happens all of the time. And just how nasty is it to require that someone not receive future royalties on the work they put in? Had Flo had quality legal counsel I'd like to think she would have been informed on what a bad idea that was.

[RanRan79]

Inaccurate again, they had to SPLIT THREE WAYS that amount.

The amount of royalties each Supreme received was negligible. By the time costs of unreleased and/or unsuccessful recordings were charged against them it kept them in a negative balance. Also they had to pay for Mrs Powell, Cholly Atkins and an assortment of other musician charges as well as studio time. Add to that the purchases of homes, cars, jewelry and clothing and this kept the balance of what Motown owed them in the negative.

The Supremes made the bulk of their monies for personal appearances, tv shows, and endorsements.

In some ways the Supremes seemed to be in a glorified, Hollywood version of the sharecropping system. The plantation owner provides all of the things that the sharecropper needs [[including clothes) and then when the crop comes in, charges all of those things back to the farmer, who is often left in a debt situation because the crop [[supposedly) never amounts to the coverage of the items charged against the farmer. Obviously the Supremes were living better than any sharecropper ever did, but their financial situation is eerily similar.

[RanRan79]

Never heard of these beetles of which you speak. FAKE NOOOS FAKE NOOOS FAKE NOOOS.

I'm getting the feeling that you're not a fan of the bugs, huh? LOL [[Me either, btw. Great songwriters they were, though.)

[marv2]

Hey Marv, Not criticizing your post, but I had to chuckle at one line of your text. It seems Trumpese Speak is catching and we are are starting to speak it.


Donald said something similar at one of his many rallies to his base this week

" Don't Believe What You See And Read" Donald Trump

OMG! He is rubbing off on me! Back you mean media, you fake news purveyors! Go now! Go Now! LOL!

[RanRan79]

But do also remember that she suffered from an untreated rape in an era where women and African Americans were second or third class citizens. Compound those three factors alone and it is amazing to me she was still able to accomplish all she did. Americans [[not you in particular RR) tend to blame individuals for structural violence, expecting that an individual has the resources, information, and ability to act against large structural forces [[of violence in this case). Its why libertarianism is such quackery.

Yeah, I think I mentioned in another thread that it seems like the changes in the group in 1966 played off of what she might have been dealing with in regards to the rape: betrayal, mistrust, an overbearing male. I understand why she self medicated, I just wish she hadn't. By all accounts Flo was always outspoken and not easily pushed around, but never has anyone spoken of her behavior being out of control until this point. So had she sought psych help [[which was a rarity in those days for anyone, but especially a young Black woman) rather than turn to alcohol, one has to wonder how differently would she have handled everything. And of course in addition to the alcohol, she was also on the diet pills which has a known side effect for erratic behavior, so how might that have changed the scenario? All what ifs that can never be accurately answered, but still interesting to ponder.

[marv2]

Well, if autopsy didn't settle the issues once and for all I'm sure the upcoming, all-star, big budget movie will.

Oh it's never going to be over. If there is still this much interest after 42 years, then it will not end! After they finally get to the truth, there will be post mortems to discuss why it happened . How people can be so rotten to other people.........

[sup_fan]

OK I understand what you mean now... I see why they settled the way they did then!

and of course i'm just speculating. piecing together bits of the story from one book on motown or the sups with another. frankly anyone's guess is fair game

[marv2]

In your video reference, Mary said that when the group disbanded in 1970, she got 100,000. Did Diana get the same amount? What about Cindy? Also, I believed that the group disbanded in 1977. Did Motown regard the Supremes after 1970 as a new group and start a new set of bookeeping or is that when Mary's Supremes Inc. took over? So much of the Supremes 1970's history is confusing to me. I always considered them a continuing group with changing members

That is a lot of questions there. LOL! Here are just a few answers. Mary was referring to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" disbanding in 1970. She and Diana received $ 100,000 from the Supremes joint account [[so much for all of those stocks and bonds Motown was supposed to be buying managing for them.....). From the joint account, they had given Florence Ballard an additional $5,000 as a part of her settlement. The Supremes did disband in 1977 [[June 12, 1977). Motown did not regard The Supremes as a new group, despite all the "New Supremes" PR they put out there. Mary Wilson, however did regard them as a new group. She and Cindy were still long term contracted employees of Motown and Jean Terrell was signed individually as a Supreme. They had to start new book keeping, new accounts because starting in 1970 Mary and Cindy received royalties, while Jean Terrell was on salary to start. Mary's Supremes Inc. took over in late 1973, early '74. Don't be confused. That's what they were a continuing, established group with changing members.

[sup_fan]

Now this I have a problem with. You can't do me wrong in any aspect but follow it up with "but all the other things I did for you...". Nah, that doesn't fly with me. The Supremes had benefits that most artists at the time- at any time actually- could only dream about. But can't the same be said of Motown? What other record label had a Supremes? Would Motown be Motown without the Supremes? The Supremes were making Motown money, not really the other way around. I'd be surprised to learn that Gordy was dipping into his personal bank account [[as income from his job as the boss of Motown) to pay for anything once the Supremes hit their stride. All those plane rides, the costumes, Cholly and Maurice and Gil and the band, the meals, the recording sessions, the photo shoots, were no doubt being paid for via "Where Did Our Love Go" and "The Happening", and every hit in between, not to mention the money commanded for appearances and performances.

So sure, everything that happened allowed Mary to command attention for 50 years off the strength of being a Supreme alone, and while Flo isn't around to reap any benefits, the fact that she is still remembered at all, more than 50 years after leaving the group, speaks to the advantage of being a Supreme. [[Diana Ross obviously has had a long and successful career after leaving the group, but obviously even that owes something to the years she put in the Supremes.) But that doesn't erase the underhandedness of the contractual/business situation. How do you negotiate a contract with yourself? That should've been enough to void any contract the girls signed. Motown was dirty, I don't care what kind of way that pie is sliced.

compensation isn't only about the actual pay check. that's how companies of higher stature or of a more marque brand get away with paying less. you're getting the intangible benefit of adding a top pedigree brand to your resume.

same with the supremes. no other record company was offering the level of care and management as motown. some of that was billed to them but much wasn't. at other companies they'd have had to source all of that Artist Development on their own and pay out of pocket. Gladys and Pips did with Cholly prior to coming to motown.

now i still agree that their royalty rate wasn't as high as it should be. given their position as THE SUPREMES they certainly should have been paid more too. but their contracts were what they were.

[midnightman]

Yeah, I think I mentioned in another thread that it seems like the changes in the group in 1966 played off of what she might have been dealing with in regards to the rape: betrayal, mistrust, an overbearing male. I understand why she self medicated, I just wish she hadn't. By all accounts Flo was always outspoken and not easily pushed around, but never has anyone spoken of her behavior being out of control until this point. So had she sought psych help [[which was a rarity in those days for anyone, but especially a young Black woman) rather than turn to alcohol, one has to wonder how differently would she have handled everything. And of course in addition to the alcohol, she was also on the diet pills which has a known side effect for erratic behavior, so how might that have changed the scenario? All what ifs that can never be accurately answered, but still interesting to ponder.

Florence definitely have to deal with a lot. And yes treatment in those days were VERY primitive compared to now!

[midnightman]

While I do think Gordy may have considered the fans, I think ultimately he knew what should have been apparent to everyone else: Diana was not a solo act. Love me some Ross as I do, I watch her as a Supreme during that time period and nothing about her screams that she'd be someone that people would fall over themselves wanting to see alone at that point. She was the something extra in a singing group; a something extra that was so extra that it seems a lot folks either loved her or hated her for it. Doesn't seem like there was much room for indifference to what she brought to the table. You mention image, and that's the key. When the DRATS era entered, Diana Ross became something else entirely. Aside from her name now being out front, as a performer she seemed to jump right out ahead of the competition soon as Flo left. She was cultivating the Ross enchantment. Vocally Diana was great, but it was the total package that pushed her ahead of the pack when she finally did go solo. And yet even after two years of having her name and image pushed ahead of the Supremes, after doing solo spots without the girls, after recording hit singles with no other Supremes on them, and with a publicity campaign to announce her exit from the group, she still debuted to a half filled venue. After all of that, half filled? In 1970? Wow. I imagine Diana Ross, solo artist, in 1966/67 would have probably at least filled half a house, but I think if she were ever going to be the DIANA ROSS that she would eventually become, she would've endured a few years of so-so success before fulfilling her destiny. And I believe Gordy knew that. There may have been a contemplation of the question "can Diane make it as a solo artist", but I doubt if it was ever given any real consideration in 1966.

Gives you a lot to ponder. I'm guessing the public DIDN'T want a solo Diana Ross at all. People back then really had this thing about groups and that if a member left to become a soloist and that group was like REAL popular, it would feel like a betrayal of some sorts. The Beatles went through that during the same time Motown was pushing Diana in front. John Lennon and George Harrison had side projects before they split. When Lennon released his first solo album, instead of releasing it under his name, he released it as Plastic Ono Band and had his wife Yoko record a solo album with him. Paul and George also released solo albums in 1970 and among those three, George's proved to be the most successful [[All Things Must Pass) but people kept begging for a Beatles reunion because for them, it was odd that arguably the most successful recording group in music history would be apart.

I imagine for The Supremes, it was the same. No one was here for Florence's efforts, Diana performed to half-filled audiences and when Mary released her solo efforts, she was shrugged off. Diana had to work twice as hard to prove herself as a soloist especially since Motown was putting all that money to try to boost her up as the black Streisand. By 1972, that transition from star to superstar finally took heed. 1972-73 was really when Diana Ross became DIANA ROSS IMHO.

Nowadays if a group broke up, people who were fans of this member or that member CAN'T WAIT for their solo projects to come out but that wasn't true in 1966.

[midnightman]

You betcha. It happens all of the time. And just how nasty is it to require that someone not receive future royalties on the work they put in? Had Flo had quality legal counsel I'd like to think she would have been informed on what a bad idea that was.

At that point in her life, Florence just wanted to move on. She didn't even think of legal matters like that. She was still practically a kid when she was forced out of the group [[at age 24) so I don't think she knew anything about how royalties work. But then again, I doubt most of the artists who signed with Motown knew anything about business. All they knew is they could either sing, perform and/or write and that was enough for them to want to get into the business. No one was thinking they were signing their rights away to anything, be it their group name or any future royalties or signed away any chance they had in owning their own copyrights. I mean even the writers had to sell their works to JOBETE instead of setting up their own publishing companies! But of course Motown wasn't the first label where that mess was going on. Motown did their best to look after their artists when they signed though, true, but they sure weren't gonna be there for their future.

It took years for any act [[AFTER Mary Wells of course) who signed with Motown to fight for rights [[like the Temptations fighting to keep their name in their control, Stevie Wonder negotiations that led Stevie to own his post-1970 material, Marvin to be allowed to produce himself, Teena Marie suing Motown to continue to get royalties from Motown after wanting to join another label; i.e., the Brockert Initiative, etc.).

So imagine how three girls from the projects felt when they realized that all the stuff they were getting were not gonna continue when they did finally leave Motown and had to make it on their own; two of them made it out just fine [[especially ONE of the two) while the other unfortunately couldn't make that transition.

[PeaceNHarmony]

LOL. I wouldnt hold your breath for that one coming to theaters anytime soon.

Why. Ms. Roberta! You SHOCK me with your cynicism! Surely this will be the first joint venture between Spike Lee and Steven Spielberg and sweep every award in next year's awards season. Or, not. IF, that is, Lee and Spielberg can possibly top the sheer magnificence of the utterly transcendent and redefining 'Autopsy'.

[Roberta75]

Why. Ms. Roberta! You SHOCK me with your cynicism! Surely this will be the first joint venture between Spike Lee and Steven Spielberg and sweep every award in next year's awards season. Or, not.

If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...ood-con-75016/

[PeaceNHarmony]

If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...ood-con-75016/

That's a very interesting article, though a sad one. If handled correctly [[as if ...) a Ballard movie could be a good cautionary piece, as Florence is emblematic of so many talented people who are given the world on a silver platter then lose it all. But most of us know that those who are waiting for an FB film are really just looking for another excuse to portray Florence as a victim of Mary Wilson, Berry Gordy, and the always-fickle record buying public.. You be well, Ms. Roberta!

[BayouMotownMan]

[QUOTE=marv2;473179]Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!

Well Marv I have asked this of you before and never got an answer and I fully expect not to get one this time. What are you credentials?

How many books on Motown have your participated in?
How many articles on Motown have you written?
How many interviews with Motown staff have you done?
How many CD compilations have you participated in?
How many times have you been interviewed on a Motown subject?

[aarondillon2011@gmail.com]

Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

This is very true. Something I have endured many times. Nothing warrants bad behavior when the person goes out of their way to do it, but when other employees, managers, supervisors are pushing buttons, antagonizing someone, harassing, purposely giving that employee a hard time you have to be a person to speak up and put a stop to it. I personally also know what it is like to not have anyone else on your side and stick up for me. It's a tuff situation. As far as Florence is concerned, there were many instances that happened in the Supremes, and have been documented, where she had every right to speak up and some situations that may have gone too far. When someone has power over you, where they think they can talk to you and treat you anyway they want. It

's a disgusting and degrading situation and totally unacceptable whether you are singer, actor or regular blue-collar worker in a factory.

[Roberta75]

That's a very interesting article, though a sad one. If handled correctly [[as if ...) a Ballard movie could be a good cautionary piece, as Florence is emblematic of so many talented people who are given the world on a silver platter then lose it all. But most of us know that those who are waiting for an FB film are really just looking for another excuse to portray Florence as a victim of Mary Wilson, Berry Gordy, and the always-fickle record buying public.. You be well, Ms. Roberta!

Thank you dear, you be well too.

[vgalindo]

If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...ood-con-75016/

Wow. Thank you Roberta. That was a very interesting read.

[PeaceNHarmony]

This is very true. Something I have endured many times. Nothing warrants bad behavior when the person goes out of their way to do it, but when other employees, managers, supervisors are pushing buttons, antagonizing someone, harassing, purposely giving that employee a hard time you have to be a person to speak up and put a stop to it. I personally also know what it is like to not have anyone else on your side and stick up for me. It's a tuff situation. As far as Florence is concerned, there were many instances that happened in the Supremes, and have been documented, where she had every right to speak up and some situations that may have gone too far. When someone has power over you, where they think they can talk to you and treat you anyway they want. It

's a disgusting and degrading situation and totally unacceptable whether you are singer, actor or regular blue-collar worker in a factory.

And unfortunately, sometimes a popular co-worker needs to be let go because s/he is simply not contributing at the required level of commitment.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Wow. Thank you Roberta. That was a very interesting read.

Sure was. There's lots of tax-loss chicanery in showbiz [[best expressed in satirical fashion in Mel Brooks' 'The Producers') and it's not uncommon for a shyster to 'option' a screenplay [[for which there is little to no chance of actual production), write expenses against the optioned screenplay, then declare the project as a tax deduction when no viable commitments can be found to produce the project.

[Roberta75]

Wow. Thank you Roberta. That was a very interesting read.

Welcome dear.

[midnightman]

If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...ood-con-75016/

Stunning thing about this is Peter supposedly put more trust in this con artist than he did with Faith Evans and anyone else who saw through the con artist's scheme.

At the end, he was like "well there goes any chance of my book being a movie". WELP!

[thanxal]

I'm getting the feeling that you're not a fan of the bugs, huh? LOL [[Me either, btw. Great songwriters they were, though.)

I just think the Supremes were better. That’s all.

[thanxal]

If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...ood-con-75016/

Thank you Roberta. I’ve heard bit and pieces of that story but never realized how bad the actual events were. Wow!

[Roberta75]

Thank you Roberta. I’ve heard bit and pieces of that story but never realized how bad the actual events were. Wow!

And thats only Benjaminsens version of the events. Im sure Faith Evans has another real interesting version.

[midnightman]

I wanna get Faith's version of events my darn self. I don't trust Peter for some reason.

[vgalindo]

I wanna get Faith's version of events my darn self. I don't trust Peter for some reason.

I know what you mean. Same here.