Also a true statement.
Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.
Oh they made it tough for her. "Flo, you're too fat!", "Flo, you're drunk, go home..", "Flo, you're singing flat" yada, yada, yada. They tried it on her, but she wouldn't quit. She had to be fired. Had she quit, she would have lost most of any legal grounds she may have had. If she had the proper lawyer, Motown would had to cough up a whole lot more than the total $175,000 they offered her. Florence Ballard NEVER received an proper accounting of what she earned while at Motown. This all smells bad because she was left with Motown holding all of the power when they sent that snake Michael Roshkind to meet her that day at Northland in Southfiedl!
Inaccurate again, they had to SPLIT THREE WAYS that amount.
The amount of royalties each Supreme received was negligible. By the time costs of unreleased and/or unsuccessful recordings were charged against them it kept them in a negative balance. Also they had to pay for Mrs Powell, Cholly Atkins and an assortment of other musician charges as well as studio time. Add to that the purchases of homes, cars, jewelry and clothing and this kept the balance of what Motown owed them in the negative.
The Supremes made the bulk of their monies for personal appearances, tv shows, and endorsements.
Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!
Well, if autopsy didn't settle the issues once and for all I'm sure the upcoming, all-star, big budget movie will.
Hey Marv, Not criticizing your post, but I had to chuckle at one line of your text. It seems Trumpese Speak is catching and we are are starting to speak it.
Donald said something similar at one of his many rallies to his base this week
" Don't Believe What You See And Read" Donald Trump
In your video reference, Mary said that when the group disbanded in 1970, she got 100,000. Did Diana get the same amount? What about Cindy? Also, I believed that the group disbanded in 1977. Did Motown regard the Supremes after 1970 as a new group and start a new set of bookeeping or is that when Mary's Supremes Inc. took over? So much of the Supremes 1970's history is confusing to me. I always considered them a continuing group with changing members
I agree that giving them each their own room would have been the best option, but i’ll Bet Flo wouldn’t have wanted it that way until she stopped talking to Mary in early ‘67. I used to do a lot of theater and the dressing room was a fun place to get charged up before the show. Had I always been the star, maybe i’d Have wanted less hub bub around me, but I didn’t feel that way with the few leads I had. I was acting though, not trying to work an audience with my charm - I dunno, had I been Ross and in conflict with either girl or both, I’d have wanted to get my shit together before the show without the negs.
I agree Gordyvwas a shake, and After losing Mary Wells, was wise to keep the goose laying the golden eggs in his own hen house - and away from the other, influential chickens. I admire his work a lot, but he was rotten. All three girls deserved much better from him - yes, Flo was wrong to act out. There’s no excuse, if your boss is a creep, shut the fuck up about it until you are off work. It’s unprofessional to bring bad vibes to work - period. A Go Go only made things worse for a Flo as she’s not on half of it, Mary got a lead and it went to #1 - so I’m sure her feelings were hurt learning that she wasn’t needed on their highest charting album. It’s all so sad. Such a sweet girl - trampled by An avoricious visionary.
While I do think Gordy may have considered the fans, I think ultimately he knew what should have been apparent to everyone else: Diana was not a solo act. Love me some Ross as I do, I watch her as a Supreme during that time period and nothing about her screams that she'd be someone that people would fall over themselves wanting to see alone at that point. She was the something extra in a singing group; a something extra that was so extra that it seems a lot folks either loved her or hated her for it. Doesn't seem like there was much room for indifference to what she brought to the table. You mention image, and that's the key. When the DRATS era entered, Diana Ross became something else entirely. Aside from her name now being out front, as a performer she seemed to jump right out ahead of the competition soon as Flo left. She was cultivating the Ross enchantment. Vocally Diana was great, but it was the total package that pushed her ahead of the pack when she finally did go solo. And yet even after two years of having her name and image pushed ahead of the Supremes, after doing solo spots without the girls, after recording hit singles with no other Supremes on them, and with a publicity campaign to announce her exit from the group, she still debuted to a half filled venue. After all of that, half filled? In 1970? Wow. I imagine Diana Ross, solo artist, in 1966/67 would have probably at least filled half a house, but I think if she were ever going to be the DIANA ROSS that she would eventually become, she would've endured a few years of so-so success before fulfilling her destiny. And I believe Gordy knew that. There may have been a contemplation of the question "can Diane make it as a solo artist", but I doubt if it was ever given any real consideration in 1966.
I think it's unfair to put any blame on her family. They may have asked Flo for a lot, and that would be no surprise. Probably 90 percent of celebrities' family members ask for a lot. But any "advice" she was getting was most certainly coming from information that Florence was relaying about her experience. And while I tend to side with Flo's side of the story on some of the behind the scenes antics, it was her side of the story, and so would surely be biased somehow. Personally, if my sister were to tell me of things going on at her job that was unfair and down right cruel from her POV, my advice to her would also be don't let anyone push her around. And Flo shouldn't have allowed herself to be pushed around. Her biggest downfall was that she self medicated, which never allows a person to make great decisions, and I find it hard to believe that her family told her to do that.
But do also remember that she suffered from an untreated rape in an era where women and African Americans were second or third class citizens. Compound those three factors alone and it is amazing to me she was still able to accomplish all she did. Americans [[not you in particular RR) tend to blame individuals for structural violence, expecting that an individual has the resources, information, and ability to act against large structural forces [[of violence in this case). Its why libertarianism is such quackery.
Now this I have a problem with. You can't do me wrong in any aspect but follow it up with "but all the other things I did for you...". Nah, that doesn't fly with me. The Supremes had benefits that most artists at the time- at any time actually- could only dream about. But can't the same be said of Motown? What other record label had a Supremes? Would Motown be Motown without the Supremes? The Supremes were making Motown money, not really the other way around. I'd be surprised to learn that Gordy was dipping into his personal bank account [[as income from his job as the boss of Motown) to pay for anything once the Supremes hit their stride. All those plane rides, the costumes, Cholly and Maurice and Gil and the band, the meals, the recording sessions, the photo shoots, were no doubt being paid for via "Where Did Our Love Go" and "The Happening", and every hit in between, not to mention the money commanded for appearances and performances.
So sure, everything that happened allowed Mary to command attention for 50 years off the strength of being a Supreme alone, and while Flo isn't around to reap any benefits, the fact that she is still remembered at all, more than 50 years after leaving the group, speaks to the advantage of being a Supreme. [[Diana Ross obviously has had a long and successful career after leaving the group, but obviously even that owes something to the years she put in the Supremes.) But that doesn't erase the underhandedness of the contractual/business situation. How do you negotiate a contract with yourself? That should've been enough to void any contract the girls signed. Motown was dirty, I don't care what kind of way that pie is sliced.
In some ways the Supremes seemed to be in a glorified, Hollywood version of the sharecropping system. The plantation owner provides all of the things that the sharecropper needs [[including clothes) and then when the crop comes in, charges all of those things back to the farmer, who is often left in a debt situation because the crop [[supposedly) never amounts to the coverage of the items charged against the farmer. Obviously the Supremes were living better than any sharecropper ever did, but their financial situation is eerily similar.
Yeah, I think I mentioned in another thread that it seems like the changes in the group in 1966 played off of what she might have been dealing with in regards to the rape: betrayal, mistrust, an overbearing male. I understand why she self medicated, I just wish she hadn't. By all accounts Flo was always outspoken and not easily pushed around, but never has anyone spoken of her behavior being out of control until this point. So had she sought psych help [[which was a rarity in those days for anyone, but especially a young Black woman) rather than turn to alcohol, one has to wonder how differently would she have handled everything. And of course in addition to the alcohol, she was also on the diet pills which has a known side effect for erratic behavior, so how might that have changed the scenario? All what ifs that can never be accurately answered, but still interesting to ponder.
That is a lot of questions there. LOL! Here are just a few answers. Mary was referring to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" disbanding in 1970. She and Diana received $ 100,000 from the Supremes joint account [[so much for all of those stocks and bonds Motown was supposed to be buying managing for them.....). From the joint account, they had given Florence Ballard an additional $5,000 as a part of her settlement. The Supremes did disband in 1977 [[June 12, 1977). Motown did not regard The Supremes as a new group, despite all the "New Supremes" PR they put out there. Mary Wilson, however did regard them as a new group. She and Cindy were still long term contracted employees of Motown and Jean Terrell was signed individually as a Supreme. They had to start new book keeping, new accounts because starting in 1970 Mary and Cindy received royalties, while Jean Terrell was on salary to start. Mary's Supremes Inc. took over in late 1973, early '74. Don't be confused. That's what they were a continuing, established group with changing members.
compensation isn't only about the actual pay check. that's how companies of higher stature or of a more marque brand get away with paying less. you're getting the intangible benefit of adding a top pedigree brand to your resume.
same with the supremes. no other record company was offering the level of care and management as motown. some of that was billed to them but much wasn't. at other companies they'd have had to source all of that Artist Development on their own and pay out of pocket. Gladys and Pips did with Cholly prior to coming to motown.
now i still agree that their royalty rate wasn't as high as it should be. given their position as THE SUPREMES they certainly should have been paid more too. but their contracts were what they were.
Gives you a lot to ponder. I'm guessing the public DIDN'T want a solo Diana Ross at all. People back then really had this thing about groups and that if a member left to become a soloist and that group was like REAL popular, it would feel like a betrayal of some sorts. The Beatles went through that during the same time Motown was pushing Diana in front. John Lennon and George Harrison had side projects before they split. When Lennon released his first solo album, instead of releasing it under his name, he released it as Plastic Ono Band and had his wife Yoko record a solo album with him. Paul and George also released solo albums in 1970 and among those three, George's proved to be the most successful [[All Things Must Pass) but people kept begging for a Beatles reunion because for them, it was odd that arguably the most successful recording group in music history would be apart.
I imagine for The Supremes, it was the same. No one was here for Florence's efforts, Diana performed to half-filled audiences and when Mary released her solo efforts, she was shrugged off. Diana had to work twice as hard to prove herself as a soloist especially since Motown was putting all that money to try to boost her up as the black Streisand. By 1972, that transition from star to superstar finally took heed. 1972-73 was really when Diana Ross became DIANA ROSS IMHO.
Nowadays if a group broke up, people who were fans of this member or that member CAN'T WAIT for their solo projects to come out but that wasn't true in 1966.
At that point in her life, Florence just wanted to move on. She didn't even think of legal matters like that. She was still practically a kid when she was forced out of the group [[at age 24) so I don't think she knew anything about how royalties work. But then again, I doubt most of the artists who signed with Motown knew anything about business. All they knew is they could either sing, perform and/or write and that was enough for them to want to get into the business. No one was thinking they were signing their rights away to anything, be it their group name or any future royalties or signed away any chance they had in owning their own copyrights. I mean even the writers had to sell their works to JOBETE instead of setting up their own publishing companies! But of course Motown wasn't the first label where that mess was going on. Motown did their best to look after their artists when they signed though, true, but they sure weren't gonna be there for their future.
It took years for any act [[AFTER Mary Wells of course) who signed with Motown to fight for rights [[like the Temptations fighting to keep their name in their control, Stevie Wonder negotiations that led Stevie to own his post-1970 material, Marvin to be allowed to produce himself, Teena Marie suing Motown to continue to get royalties from Motown after wanting to join another label; i.e., the Brockert Initiative, etc.).
So imagine how three girls from the projects felt when they realized that all the stuff they were getting were not gonna continue when they did finally leave Motown and had to make it on their own; two of them made it out just fine [[especially ONE of the two) while the other unfortunately couldn't make that transition.
Why. Ms. Roberta! You SHOCK me with your cynicism! Surely this will be the first joint venture between Spike Lee and Steven Spielberg and sweep every award in next year's awards season. Or, not. IF, that is, Lee and Spielberg can possibly top the sheer magnificence of the utterly transcendent and redefining 'Autopsy'.
Last edited by PeaceNHarmony; 08-03-2018 at 12:08 PM.
If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.
Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...ood-con-75016/
That's a very interesting article, though a sad one. If handled correctly [[as if ...) a Ballard movie could be a good cautionary piece, as Florence is emblematic of so many talented people who are given the world on a silver platter then lose it all. But most of us know that those who are waiting for an FB film are really just looking for another excuse to portray Florence as a victim of Mary Wilson, Berry Gordy, and the always-fickle record buying public.. You be well, Ms. Roberta!
[QUOTE=marv2;473179]Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!
Well Marv I have asked this of you before and never got an answer and I fully expect not to get one this time. What are you credentials?
How many books on Motown have your participated in?
How many articles on Motown have you written?
How many interviews with Motown staff have you done?
How many CD compilations have you participated in?
How many times have you been interviewed on a Motown subject?
This is very true. Something I have endured many times. Nothing warrants bad behavior when the person goes out of their way to do it, but when other employees, managers, supervisors are pushing buttons, antagonizing someone, harassing, purposely giving that employee a hard time you have to be a person to speak up and put a stop to it. I personally also know what it is like to not have anyone else on your side and stick up for me. It's a tuff situation. As far as Florence is concerned, there were many instances that happened in the Supremes, and have been documented, where she had every right to speak up and some situations that may have gone too far. When someone has power over you, where they think they can talk to you and treat you anyway they want. It's a disgusting and degrading situation and totally unacceptable whether you are singer, actor or regular blue-collar worker in a factory.
Sure was. There's lots of tax-loss chicanery in showbiz [[best expressed in satirical fashion in Mel Brooks' 'The Producers') and it's not uncommon for a shyster to 'option' a screenplay [[for which there is little to no chance of actual production), write expenses against the optioned screenplay, then declare the project as a tax deduction when no viable commitments can be found to produce the project.
I wanna get Faith's version of events my darn self. I don't trust Peter for some reason.
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