Whitney Houston & Brother - Abuse Allegation - Dee Dee Warwick

[midnightman]

Totally agree! That was one of the BEST molly fockin' songs period! She was just on overdrive during that time. People were waiting for her to cool off a bit and then she releases "Where Do Broken Hearts Go" a song I do not believe anyone could dislike.

I mean it was just strange. She was breaking down barriers for black artists, especially black female artists, during a racially tense time in the 1980s, and yet she gets booed? For what? Because she constantly dominated the charts? I don't know how some folks can be so fickle smh

[marv2]

I mean it was just strange. She was breaking down barriers for black artists, especially black female artists, during a racially tense time in the 1980s, and yet she gets booed? For what? Because she constantly dominated the charts? I don't know how some folks can be so fickle smh

I was in the demographic that the record companies were catering to in the 80s.
Young and with money. Yep, I was a yuppie and Whitney Houston was MADE for yuppies with the type of music she was producing. I don't recall the 80s really being a racially tense time in particular having grown up in the 60s. The 80s were all about excess, everything was BIG aka the Big 80s. Everyone wanted everything and they wanted it NOW!

By the time Whitney came around in the 80s any barriers I was aware of were already broken down years earlier. What she did was hit you with 100% pure voice, pure talent, packaged in a high fashion model package! Those that booed her were full of shit, fake ghetto thugs. Yeah I said it. They were the ones that promoted black women as video, hoochie whores, where as Whitney presented pure class. They were jealous and they were scared of what Whitney represented. She proved that she didn't have to bend over and shake her ass to sell millions of records. Those punks that booed her wanted to take black culture back as in backwards and we weren't going. It hurt Whitney's feelings [[but not her bank account) because she knew she was down, Hell she was from Newark, NJ!

[midnightman]

I was in the demographic that the record companies were catering to in the 80s.
Young and with money. Yep, I was a yuppie and Whitney Houston was MADE for yuppies with the type of music she was producing. I don't recall the 80s really being a racially tense time in particular having grown up in the 60s. The 80s were all about excess, everything was BIG aka the Big 80s. Everyone wanted everything and they wanted it NOW!

By the time Whitney came around in the 80s any barriers I was aware of were already broken down years earlier. What she did was hit you with 100% pure voice, pure talent, packaged in a high fashion model package! Those that booed her were full of shit, fake ghetto thugs. Yeah I said it. They were the ones that promoted black women as video, hoochie whores, where as Whitney presented pure class. They were jealous and they were scared of what Whitney represented. She proved that she didn't have to bend over and shake her ass to sell millions of records. Those punks that booed her wanted to take black culture back as in backwards and we weren't going. It hurt Whitney's feelings [[but not her bank account) because she knew she was down, Hell she was from Newark, NJ!

Well it WAS 1989, the year hip-hop and new jack swing had become more prevalent in R&B music. So yeah, Whitney's brand of ballads and dance pop were not gonna be favored by that audience, which is still strange. This WAS the year of Bobby Brown after all.

By the early '90s, all that concern about Whitney being "too white" was over and black folks went back to fully embracing her again. 1989 was just a weird year.

[midnightman]

^ Ah OK, thanks for the correction. Like I said, I was only five so I can't recall if she performed that year or not. But I know she performed on the show at the 1993 awards with her then-husband.

[marv2]

This is how good she was y'all. From 2000 and Arista Records' 25th Anniversary:

[reese]

^ Ah OK, thanks for the correction. Like I said, I was only five so I can't recall if she performed that year or not. But I know she performed on the show at the 1993 awards with her then-husband.

Yes, Whitney performed three times at the Soul Train Awards over the years.

She performed YOU GIVE GOOD LOVE at the first ceremony in 1987.

In 1994, she opened the show with QUEEN OF THE NIGHT / I'M EVERY WOMAN. Then she was honored with the Sammy Davis Entertainer of the Year Award and later, this performance with Bobby.

The last time she appeared was in 1999. She sang ITS NOT RIGHT BUT ITS OKAY and also sang SO AMAZING [[with El DeBarge, Johnny Gill, and Kenny Lattimore) for a Luther Vandross, who was receiving the Quincy Jones award.

[midnightman]

[smallworld]

I know shoulder pads were trendy in the 1980s but why does BeBe Winans look like he's dressed for football practice under that blazer?

Joni Mitchell couldn't look less thrilled to be waving that light around onstage towards the end of the performance.

[Guy]

Joni Mitchell couldn't look less thrilled to be waving that light around onstage towards the end of the performance.

LOL. Joni did look underwhelmed. But she's always prided herself on having cross-cultural appeal [[and she does) so I am not surprised to see her there.

[Guy]

I think the Whitney backlash was due to the the fact that she was so conspicuously marketed for crossover success. Her song selection was very "pop" with all of the rough edges polished away. Clive Davis notoriously sent her back to the studio to re-record vocal takes he deemed "too black." There was an awareness in the industry and among her black fanbase that her music and image was meticulously groomed to be less black so as to be more palatable to pop radio and white record buyers.

Also, she was successful at a time when Anita Baker and Janet Jackson were also enjoying success with music that was more rooted in soul/jazz/funk music styles. So the decision to maximize her crossover appeal at the expense of her Gospel/R&B roots was personally offensive to some black fans.

As noted by other posters, she was just the latest in a line of hugely successful black performers who blacks resented because of their assimilationist aspirations -- Sammy Davis Jr., Eartha Kitt, Nat King Cole, Johnny Mathis, Diana Ross, etc.

[soulster]

I think the Whitney backlash was due to the the fact that she was so conspicuously marketed for crossover success. Her song selection was very "pop" with all of the rough edges polished away. Clive Davis notoriously sent her back to the studio to re-record vocal takes he deemed "too black." There was an awareness in the industry and among her black fanbase that her music and image was meticulously groomed to be less black so as to be more palatable to pop radio and white record buyers.

Clive Davis isn't known for his expertise in R&B music. He was usually pretty wise to back off the R&B signees to his labels. But, in the case of Whitney Houston, I think he had intentions of marketing her as a pop artist all along.

As noted by other posters, she was just the latest in a line of hugely successful black performers who blacks resented because of their assimilationist aspirations -- Sammy Davis Jr., Eartha Kitt, Nat King Cole, Johnny Mathis, Diana Ross, etc.

Sammy Davis Jr.? he was part of the rat pack. he didn't have an R&B bone in his body. He didn't have to assimilate, but Frank, Dean, and Peter had to do was force White 'Merica to accept him as an equal or they didn't get any of them.

[sansradio]

I thought I had responded, but now don't see it. I know Tina as well as Dionne made those lps, but they weren't hits and that's not the music they are known for.

That I will not dispute, but you initially said they never did. Cheers.

[Guy]

Sammy Davis Jr.? he was part of the rat pack. he didn't have an R&B bone in his body. He didn't have to assimilate, but Frank, Dean, and Peter had to do was force White 'Merica to accept him as an equal or they didn't get any of them.

Nothing to do with R&B. Sammy Davis Jr. was a black superstar who was very successful and acclaimed by the majority culture. He started as part of an act with his father and uncle on the "chitlin' circuit" -- playing to black audiences -- but later enjoyed huge mainstream celebrity. When his success with the majority culture was at its peak he was plagued by criticism from black media and black audiences that he was a sell-out -- a.k.a. "too white". Like the other artists I cited.

Whitney was not the first, just one in a line of black performers who suffered that criticism.

[soulster]

Nothing to do with R&B. Sammy Davis Jr. was a black superstar who was very successful and acclaimed by the majority culture. He started as part of an act with his father and uncle on the "chitlin' circuit" -- playing to black audiences -- but later enjoyed huge mainstream celebrity. When his success with the majority culture was at its peak he was plagued by criticism from black media and black audiences that he was a sell-out -- a.k.a. "too white". Like the other artists I cited.

I'm talking about when he was coming up in the 50s. His friends had to force Whites to accept him.

[midnightman]

Soulster is right about Clive wanting to make Whitney a pop star. Clive caught Whitney at the right time [[she was 19 when Arista signed her; enough time to mold her into the crossover legend she became).

The other black female divas he signed like Phyllis Hyman and Angela Bofill got with Arista when both had established R&B audiences and were also much older when they got with Clive so they were too earthy to be molded into pop stars. Dionne and Aretha were already legends with established careers [[Dionne had a bit of that pop sheen but not enough to return her to her '60s megastardom during the Bacharach/David years).

Whitney at 19, 20 years old was perfect for Clive to mold her before she got established so she was a pop artist from day one in a sense.

[soulster]

The other black female divas he signed like Phyllis Hyman and Angela Bofill got with Arista when both had established R&B audiences and were also much older when they got with Clive so they were too earthy to be molded into pop stars.

Angela Bofill was originally on the GRP label [[Grusin/Rosen Productions) along with Tom Browne. The GRP label was distributed by Arista. In 1983, GRP was sold to Arista, and Clive Davis took on Browne and Bofill. Tom Browne's music didn't change much, but Clive paired Bofill with that up and coming pop diva svengali Narada Michael Walden! The result was "Too Tough" in 1983. I guess Sister Sledge's "All American Girls" made an impression on Davis.

Funny, after the letdown of Sister Sledge's "All American Girls", despite it being a blockbuster album with something for everyone, the sisters went on to produce themselves for their 1982 "The Sisters" album, then turned to George Duke for the "Betcha Say That To All The Girls" album in '83. George Duke had a hit with Stanley Clarke called "Sweet Baby" that crossed over. That same year, he also did an album with Denise Williams, who had always been a pop artist, but was pushed by the label to go strictly R&B, and wound up with several producers on top of that. She was finally able to attain her pop status just once with the next year's "Let's Hear It For The Boy", but lightning didn't strike twice.

Anyway, Clive Davis understands pop music. That, he is good at. R&B? Not so much. Thankfully, we was wise enough to know that you have to at least let Black artists build up a Black base first, then take them pop, which is what he did with Ray Parker Jr. and Whitney Houston. As mentioned before, Dionne Warwick was always a pop singer, so he wisely paired her with Barry Manilow for her 1979 comeback on Arista. It helped that the second single from that S/T "Dionne" album had a substantial R&B hit single "Deja Vu".

Phyllis Hyman was absorbed from the Arista purchase of Buddah Records. She had a fantastic hit single "You Know How To Love Me" in 1980, a duet with Michael Henderson in 1981, all in the midst of having become a drug addict after her divorce, and problems with Arista. She committed suicide after a spotty career during the remainder of the 80s, and the 90s. She was found in a hotel room before a concert in 1995, and left a suicide note.

I'm almost certain Clive Davis helped Aretha Franklin get her shit together when she signed to Arista in 1980, and her career was resurrected almost immediately, after having been lost at Atlantic for years during the disco era. All of the people who were with her at Atlantic during her heyday had moved on. Arif Mardin had worked his magic with Average White Band, Bee Gees, and was with Chaka Khan in 1980. Jerry Wexler had semi-retired from the business, but Produced Bob Dylan in 1979.

[rrussi]

I remember Jerry Wexler came out of retirement at some point to work with Etta James.
Clive Davis is interviewed in the Whitney documentary.
I think the disco era really hurt a lot of artists that didn't make music anything like disco music.

[pghmusiclover]

Clive did no favors to either Angela Bofill or Phyllis Hyman — I’ve heard Phyllis had no love for Clive. Thankfully she returned to making soulful albums for Philadelphia International after leaving Arista, though sadly she could not overcome whatever personal demons haunted her.

[soulster]

Clive did no favors to either Angela Bofill or Phyllis Hyman — I’ve heard Phyllis had no love for Clive. Thankfully she returned to making soulful albums for Philadelphia International after leaving Arista, though sadly she could not overcome whatever personal demons haunted her.

The other problem is that by 1980, the PIR label was nothing but a shell with the same name of the label it used to be in the 70s. It may as well have not existed at that point.

[jobeterob]

In one of the early clips, I didn't even hear any booing.

In the Director's interview, I'm sure he talks about the abuse of Gary as being by Dee Dee Warwick as well.

[midnightman]

Clive DID revive Aretha's fortunes after she signed with Arista. Who's Zoomin' Who and the Aretha '86 album were actually my introductions to her. As for Phyllis, I recalled the Living All Alone and Prime of My Life albums being the most successful albums of her career that for a time revived the fortunes in PIR, which had seen better days from its 70s heyday, it couldn't help Patti LaBelle despite having the hit "If Only You Knew" on PIR and she had to go to MCA to finally get the crossover pop success she had always longed for since starting her career with the Bluebelles.

I do believe Phyllis' drug habits definitely hurt her chances to have a better career at Arista though. Also the demons that she had going on with her definitely made her difficult to work with so I'm surprised Gamble & Huff managed to successfully produce her before she died!

Angela was the complete opposite of Phyllis in terms of drug use [[she never tried drugs) and, like Phyllis, was an underrated vocalist with a strong R&B/jazz fan base. Clive tried hard to make her a dance pop diva [[Too Tough aside, I don't think her voice was made for dance music though Too Tough was a huge dance hit for her when it came out; she preferred ballads). Also, Angela was not a fan of touring so that didn't help her career either.

Once Whitney came in, Phyllis was gone [[she was dumped from the label after Goddess of Love flopped; GOL came out the same year Whitney signed with Arista) and Angela soon left as well.

[soulster]

Clive DID revive Aretha's fortunes after she signed with Arista. Who's Zoomin' Who and the Aretha '86 album were actually my introductions to her.

Wow! Really? You must be young, dude!

[marv2]

Wow! Really? You must be young, dude!

I do find that amazing! LOL!!!!!

[midnightman]

Wow! Really? You must be young, dude!

Hahaha yeah you hit the nail on the donkey there.